S07.E17: Chosen

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Kelly comes face-to-face with The Candy Killer after someone she loves is taken hostage. Meanwhile, Samdi uses Drew to execute a deadly plan. In a flashback, Zelena learns a harsh lesson after an encounter with Hansel and Gretel goes awry.

 

[mythoughtis]

Well - I bet the ending would have been great - if we’d have been able to watch it.  

This episode was great. 

[KingOfHearts]

Ugh. This episode left me so many mixed feelings. It actually made me feel sympathy for a witch who burned a child's arms. This is the first time in a while that the show actually engaged me, probably because my favorite character got a good sendoff episode. (Though, I'm sure she'll be back.) I've loved Zelena for a while, and tonight highlighted why. She's complex, but wants to do the right thing. It's not because of some "hope" mantra or reputation. It comes from a very human place. 

* "There are children starving in Arendelle". Of all the regions the Witch could have mentioned, the writers picked a place we haven't seen all that impoverished? 
* The Witch, Hansel, and Gretel were all in Oz? That's so random.
* Zelena had more chemistry with the blind woodsman than she ever did with Hades. 
* That Candy Crush line was so cringey and out of place.
* "You're still here, annoying me." I loved that line from Weaver. He still has disdain for Zelena, even after all these years.
* Once again, choosing not to kill someone is the epitome of moral decency.

Chad was probably my biggest disappointment with this episode. His entrance was too unceremonious for being such an important factor in Zelena's life. We don't know anything about his personality, so I'm not sure how we can root for him and her to be together. Obviously, she loves him, but her dilemma had a lot more potential. It just took too long to manifest. Now it seems she didn't help Regina at all, and her whole stay was pretty pointless. I think Chad bothers me because Zelena is my favorite and she deserves more than just a tacked on fiance at the last minute. It would have been more forgivable if the writers had stretched out their angst over several episodes to make it more of an arc.

Edited April 14, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Don't go Zelena!! If someone had told me at the end of Season 3 that I would actually miss Zelena, I would have laughed in their face. But here we are. She has been one of the highlights of the second half of the season. Even if she didn't do much of anything to help, she brought a kind of light-hearted tone to the scenes. I'm glad that she's not dead at least. 

The Jacinda actress still can't act, and Andrew West seemed even blander than usual as Henry. 

Yay for Rogers!

I just can't with Samdi. Are we not done with this stupid serial killer plot yet??

This is twice this season "maternal" Roni has joked that she wouldn't let anyone kill (Ivy/Zelena) but herself. 

[RandomWatcher]

Aw hell, stupid presidential announcement

[mythoughtis]

The thing about the Zelena/Hansel interaction that rings false- based on the age of Hansel it would have occurred after Zelena came to storybook.  The evilness of the event doesn’t fit her character then. 

And the witch doctor guy is boring. 

[Rumsy4]

23 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Well - I bet the ending would have been great - if we’d have been able to watch it.  

Apparently, Facilier said that he'd woken up Nick to help him kill the witches/Gothel. 

[Guest]

Just now, Rumsy4 said:

Apparently, Facilier said that he'd woken up Nick to help him kill the witches/Gothel. 

It cut out after that but before it was over.

[Rumsy4]

Just now, mythoughtis said:

based on the age of Hansel it would have occurred after Zelena came to storybook.  

Welcome to Once Upon a Time, the Show where continuity is messed up and the timelines don't matter.

Just now, ParadoxLost said:

It cut out after that but before it was over.

Oh, I didn't realize that. It cut out before that for me.

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Zelena had more chemistry with the blind woodsman than she ever did with Hades. 

I was a little sidetracked from wondering whether this was before or after she had true love after a bicycle ride with Hades. Didn't she say then, too, that no one had ever treated her like that before?

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

That Candy Crush line was so cringey and out of place.

Yeah, wouldn't this have all been happening during the curse? And wouldn't that have been before Candy Crush was a big thing? I don't remember when that was all over Facebook, but wasn't it after 2011 or so?

Yet again on this show, the victim is turned into a villain. The person who has some legitimate gripes gets a worse outcome than people who've done serious wrong. Zelena was willing to let children be eaten, but Hansel's the bad guy. I'm afraid I didn't feel much sympathy at all for Zelena. She could have set things right sooner or at least told him where his kids were. Yeah, she owned up to it all in the present, but that would have been easier to take seriously if we'd seen more than about five minutes of "good" Zelena. Up until late in season six, she was flouncing around with the Evil Queen. It's not like we saw her spending years trying to atone for her past. This is the woman who cold-bloodedly murdered Marian just to be able to impersonate her to get revenge on her sister.

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Chad was probably my biggest disappointment with this episode. His entrance was too unceremonious for being such an important factor in Zelena's life. We don't know anything about his personality, so I'm not sure how we can root for him and her to be together. Obviously, she loves him, but her dilemma had a lot more potential. It just took too long to manifest.

Yeah, for us to care all that much about Zelena's relationship dilemma, we needed to have seen the relationship. We didn't even meet the guy until he was in jeopardy, so we don't know if he was a good person, if his relationship with Kelly was worth the angst.

It sounds like Henry's book continued and showed his life post-season six, up to the moment he met Cinderella. That makes the story sound even more disjointed. So, there was the climactic Final Battle that ended with everything happily ever after, but then the story dragged on with Henry moping about not being a hero, so he ditched his family and went off to have adventures until he ran into (literally) Cinderella. The end. The hell? And yet, that portion of his life still sounds more interesting than the part we saw. Henry and Jack fighting giants and frequently getting tied up and having to make daring escapes, sometimes using Henry's Author powers, sounds a lot more exciting than WHook having to enlist Blackbeard to help Henry feel like a hero.

It seems like they did forget about the camera in the troll. What's funny is that there was a light in the troll's eye last week, so it seems the set people remembered, but the writers didn't. At least Rogers was smart enough to remember who called Jacinda "J" and to put the gingerbread house and Hansel together to solve the case.

[Rumsy4]

Not sure if this is accurate info about the end scene. Apparently the voodoo doll was Hansel/Jack/Nick, and Facilier says, “And I’m taking you out of the deck,” and stabs the doll, killing JackNickSel. But did he really need to enter the holding cell to do that?? And why a voodoo doll if he could just walk up to the guy? 

[mythoughtis]

12 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Not sure if this is accurate info about the end scene. Apparently the voodoo doll was Hansel/Jack/Nick, and Facilier says, “And I’m taking you out of the deck,” and stabs the doll, killing JackNickSel. But did he really need to enter the holding cell to do that?? And why a voodoo doll if he could just walk up to the guy? 

That’s what the internet says. I guess they showed the ending 20 minutes late. But I’d changed channels by then.  

So he killed him to prevent Nick confessing who woke him up? 

[Shanna Marie]

7 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

But did he really need to enter the holding cell to do that?? And why a voodoo doll if he could just walk up to the guy? 

And what did the beignet powder have to do with it? I thought the doll was going to have something to do with Sabine, since it was something about her essence in the beignets, or something like that. Why would Facilier need Drew to work on the food truck in order to make a voodoo doll of Nick? Any guesses on what her secret ingredient was? Because beignets are pretty basic. There's not much room for any kind of extra stuff. It's all about technique.

Oh, and we have yet another case of "I've talked to this person once, and now this relationship is a higher priority to me than my family." Not that Margot is obligated to stick with her mother, but it might have been nice if they'd given her a stronger motivation to stick around and not go help her mother get ready for her wedding (as maid of honor) than one conversation with someone she just met. We don't even know if they exchanged contact info. She could have just got a job in Seattle, or something more than just having spoken to someone she thinks she might like. At least in her case it's just a short flight away, not like Henry staying in a totally different world that meant he wasn't going to be around to ever meet his younger sibling.

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

So he killed him to prevent Nick confessing who woke him up? 

Which fact Nick didn’t even know until Facilier told him.

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She could have just got a job in Seattle

And how is she even supporting her wandering lifestyle?

[thuganomics85]

Cue the obvious "Well, that was an unexpected and long-ass ending!" crack about the new interruption.

This is one of those classic Once Upon a Time episodes were I kind of enjoyed it, despite the fact that it pretty did everything that usually annoys me, but my fondness for the characters (or actress, to be more exact) makes me willing to overlook the stupidity.  Because, once again, this show hilariously tries to sidestep almost every bad thing Zelena has done and even in this episode, they try to dismiss her leaving Hansel and Gretel to die as just some "mistake", that is easily forgivable.  And then they and their dad understandably is pissed about it, she basically throws a temper tantrum and burns Hansel's arms.  But against all odds, Rebecca Mader somehow made me believe that Zelena was sincere about wanting to change, and wanting to confront her demons at the end.  I mean, it still doesn't change how dumb everything is, but at least it's being well-acted by Mader, so I can live with it.  I guess it helps having rock bottom low expectations now.

So, Hansel/Nick/Jack was awakened by Dr. Facilier, who wanted him to eventually get around to killing Gothel, so it will be easier for him to get the dagger.  But apparently Facilier doesn't believe in second chances, so he created a voodoo of him and then killed his ass.  Seems kind of like a waste.

But at least not as big of a waste as watching more of Jacinda whine about Henry, and Tiana being forced into the supportive best friend role.... again.

I honestly haven't seen Kip Pardue since he was on Mad Men briefly, and even then, I'll always remember best for playing Ronnie "Sunshine" Bass in Remember the Titans.  But Chad ended up being kind of a bore.  I thought Zelena had way more chemistry with Hansel/Gretel's dad (who was also played by one of those actors that I've seen in a few things.)

This was Lana Parrilla's first time directing, right?  I thought she did a good job, all things considering.

[Writing Wrongs]

The Henry/Nick scenes just seemed like a rehash of Emma/Jefferson.

I'll miss Zelena. She kept me interested.

[Guest]

This was a decent episode.  I feel like they had the pieces to make is a great episode but just couldn't make them fit.

Maybe its just because I thought that Zelena and Hansel's dad had mad chemistry but I wish they'd put them together as part of the curse and skipped over the non-fairy tale character fiancée if they weren't going to explore that anyway.  Then work their way backward from that.

• Dad rejects Zelena in the past because of his kids witch trauma (but makes a different decision in HH)
• Zelena doesn't set Hansel on fire as motive (Hansel just doesn't like that his soon to be step mom is a witch because of past witch trauma so adds her to the coven list)
• change up the flashback, it didn't make sense why Zelena popped over to see DEF Blind Witch anyway.  Come up with something better, maybe Zelena legit tries to do good and gets dumped anyway making her double down Wicked in Storybrooke.
• give Nick more knowledge of what Dr. Facilier was up to.  Facilier then kills him for being a loose cannon that threatens his plan and has the potential to betray him instead of having to confess what he woke Nikc up so he can then have a reason to kill him.

Did I know Gothel was after the Dark One power tonight and just forget?  Or is that the first time this came up?

The other thing that bugged me was Zelena referring to Zelena and Kelly as two different people all night.  Its a shame that the show never clearly defined and followed the rules about fairy tale and cursed personalities.  Being wishy washy about that is the faster way for a former villain to come across like they aren't owning their villainy.  And with the way this show redeems its villains its not something that they can really afford to be wishy washy about.

[CCTC]

I liked Zelina and the actress playing her, but that episode just drove home the point that all of the redemption seemed unrealistic and unearned.  She set a young boy on fire because he was mad that she left him to get eaten by a witch (who she probably would not have cared had she not fallen in love with his father).  It is hard to feel bad for her or really think someone capable of that kind of evil is really going to change.   Plus, what did Zelina do to show she had changed?  She had a baby with someone she raped and had her murdering boyfriend killed after he killed her baby's father.   I think she maybe did a better job showing a bit more self-awareness at not being whiny when people did not immediately trust her, but why does Zelina deserve a fresh start beside the fact the actress is charismatic. 

Her HH scenes with her boyfriend would have had a bit more weight if Zelina would have mentioned him once since her departure from San Francisco.  We see one scene of them together where has no problem that she has some hidden past that has attracted psychopaths as if she just revealed that she cheats at solitaire.  We are supposed to buy this great love that would cause her to leave her family in crisis and her just reunited with daughter.  It kind of had shades of the OQ going to be happy in the wish realm even though she really had done nothing to deserve a happy ending and Snow and Charming were still in a curse because of her. 

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Don't go Zelena!! If someone had told me at the end of Season 3 that I would actually miss Zelena, I would have laughed in their face. But here we are. She has been one of the highlights of the second half of the season. Even if she didn't do much of anything to help, she brought a kind of light-hearted tone to the scenes. I'm glad that she's not dead at least. 

I've got to give Rebecca Mader props. She's what sells the character. I genuinely felt bad for her in the present. She's much better at playing likability than "wicked". Honestly, I wish we could see more of her personal and family issues. There's a certain warmth about her. Like others have said on these boards, Mader would have fit better on the show playing a different character.

Quote

Plus, what did Zelina do to show she had changed?  She had a baby with someone she raped and had her murdering boyfriend killed after he killed her baby's father.   I think she maybe did a better job showing a bit more self-awareness at not being whiny when people did not immediately trust her, but why does Zelina deserve a fresh start beside the fact the actress is charismatic. 

Zelena hasn't flip-flopped like Regina. Yeah she hung around EQ some, but that was because Regina rejected her and she had no one else. Her taste for redemption has been pretty genuine. It doesn't excuse her for her past, but it puts her leaps and bounds ahead of her sister. She isn't a threat to anyone, and I think she episode proved it. There isn't any sign that if she gets pissed she's going to go out and stake someone with a knife. Compare that to Regina in 4A, who was contemplating cold-blooded murder because her boyfriend was reunited with his dead wife.

Edited April 14, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Boobear boobear boobear, I signed up for EVERYTHING, even your homicidal past.  I'm still going to marry you because you just refrained from killing someone!  

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And what did the beignet powder have to do with it? I thought the doll was going to have something to do with Sabine, since it was something about her essence in the beignets, or something like that. Why would Facilier need Drew to work on the food truck in order to make a voodoo doll of Nick? Any guesses on what her secret ingredient was? Because beignets are pretty basic. There's not much room for any kind of extra stuff. It's all about technique.

That made zero sense.  The beignet had great power because it was made with Sabine's trust, which is apparently extremely "powerful" and the key ingredient in activating voodoo dolls in the Land Without Magic?  What the hell?  Now we can't say The Rollin' Bayou is completely irrelevant, right?  

This show is just so hilarious... you can't make this stuff up.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I'm not sure where to start with this one.  It was alright but I didn't really buy the story they were telling.  Starting with... when was this flashback supposed to have taken place?  If this was right after Zelena defeated Glinda, then it doesn't fit the characters' ages, as others said above.

And where was it supposed to have taken place?  This is the Disenchanted Forest Hansel, right?  So why would his father be living in Original Recipe Oz?  

If Hansel grew up in Oz, shouldn't he know about good witches?

The Gingerbread house looked like it was a cartoon.  The CGI is getting worse and worse.  I did have a laugh at how easily the giant peppermint hard candy knocked the wind out of Zelena, though.  Zelena was so powerful in the past, but a candy chandelier easily knocked her out?   I think that Candy Witch would have been a pretty good villain.

This episode followed the pattern of Hook flashbacks.  Create a new crime in the past that the character feels bad about in the present.  I was rooting for Zelena because we've known her for so long, but really, this was another Percival situation.  

So Regina found the right moss, and Henry can cured just like that?  And she found it off camera too.  

Weaver was sanctimonious as hell.  "That piece shows us how far we've come."  Sure, A&E, if you say it, we'll believe it.  And what was the point of him giving Zelena that green emerald back.  Did she do anything useful with it I don't remember?  Why would this Curse give Rumple other people's possessions?

The arrival of Regina and Zelena made Hansel go all witch crazy again?  Did he see how Regina and Zelena were trying to defeat the evil Coven?  How did newly awoken Nick suddenly know that the doctor was a witch? 

We never found out why Nick cut a lock of hair from the witches.  Is that still going to be relevant, or are we supposed to forget about it?

I don't get why Dr. Facilier killed Nick before he even did the job he intended for him (to kill Gothel).  

Zelena leaving Seattle was so unnecessary and endings like that makes this show very "stop and go".  As many said above, we hardly saw Chad, and yet we're supposed to be profoundly moved by Zelena's decision.  Now Regina encourages her to go... uh, did you forget evil Gothel was still out there?  Way to kill the tension.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

When a show starts with cookies already frosted being pulled from a hot oven, ya know it's got problems!

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I thought Zelena had way more chemistry with Hansel/Gretel's dad (who was also played by one of those actors that I've seen in a few things.)

Dan Payne has quite a resume on IMDb.

[rogvortex58]

Weaver is a pretty useless detective. He needed Henry to identify who the killer was, and he needed Zelena to catch him.

I don’t know why he even bothers pretending to be a cop, when protecting and serving is the last thing he cares about.

[Suzysite]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't get why Dr. Facilier killed Nick before he even did the job he intended for him (to kill Gothel).  

 

He killed Nick?   I didn't get to see that part thanks to ABC news cutting in at the end.  

This show is beyond ridiculous and there isn't one character I care about, but I had decided to watch until the end after investing so many years into it.   The end can't come soon enough.

[CCTC]

1 hour ago, Suzysite said:

He killed Nick?   I didn't get to see that part thanks to ABC news cutting in at the end. 

There was about a minute of the show after the new break.  He basically put a pin in a Nick voodoo doll and that killed him.

Facilier seems like he could have been a good villain, but they have punted the who is the big bad and what the real evil plot/motivation is so many times this season that it is hard to care since you feel like it will just change again in the next episode.  

I agree Mader sells her character and her redemption seems more sincere and not as forced as Regina (I think it helps that you did not have her former victims being her biggest cheerleader), but it is amazing how really horrible past acts are almost dismissed as youthful indiscretions and anyone can be redeemed by wanting to be a better person.  It does not help that when these characters are in evil mode, you never see them have any conflict or subtext of conflict when they are doing evil or regret of doing the act afterwards.   It makes the person saying they want to change years later out of the blue and not likely.

I also think Mader did a good job selling the mother-daughter relationship.  In some ways it seemed more real than Henry-Regina relationship seasons 4 to 6, maybe because they allowed  some normal conflict, whereas Henry seemed to almost almost worship Regina thinking she could do no wrong (which makes the season 1 episodes jarring to watch  now).  That is why it did not jive that she would leave just as they reunited and leaving her alone in a cursed town.  Again, her leaving might have been more convincing had she talked about her boy friend once after getting to HH or we had seen them interact except for three minutes where they had some contrived dialogue after a hostage situation.   

Speaking of dialogue -- wow is there a lot of stilted speeches and clumsy exposition.

Objectively, the last number of episodes have probably been better than the show has been in a while, but since I no longer feel a connection to the show, I really notice the flaws more than I did in the past.  It also does not help that I do not sit down and watch it anymore, it is more on in the background while I am doing other things, so I think I miss a lot of things that would make the plot more sense.

Edited April 14, 2018 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

47 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I also think Mader did a good job selling the mother-daughter relationship.  In some ways it seemed more real than Henry-Regina relationship seasons 4 to 6, maybe because they allowed  some normal conflict, whereas Henry seemed to almost almost worship Regina thinking she could do no wrong (which makes the season 1 episodes jarring to watch  now). 

48 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I agree Mader sells her character and her redemption seems more sincere and not as forced as Regina (I think it helps that you did not have her former victims being her biggest cheerleader)

These are the crucial differences that sell Zelena's redemption and change of heart way more than for Regina. I do agree that we don't see the depth of guilt or regret over the past as for example in the case of Hook Prime, and quite a lot of her terrible deeds are passed over as mistakes. But there is no former victim of Zelena's being her greatest cheerleader. And Regina makes quips about being the one to kill her, even at this stage, where they're supposed to have this amazing sisterly relationship (like who okayed that line?). And we have seen Zelena trying over several episodes to better her relationship with her daughter, even when the latter was being a brat. With Henry and Regina, he became one of her doormats overnight, and Regina's affection for him always seemed pretty needy and self-centered. 

As a normal boyfriend, Chad was a flop. I actually think it would have been more poignant if they had broken up and Zelena had elected to stay with her daughter and sister. I guess abc didn't agree to bring Mader back for more than a few episodes, but it was not a well-judged exit. We keep saying goodbye to so many charatcers with incomplete arcs. We haven't seen hide or hippie hair of the supposed main villain, Gothel, in weeks. The pacing for the last series of episodes is all over the place. 

[KingOfHearts]

There's actually a TV Guide article about Oncers being ticked off over the last scene being cut due to the news. I thought it was funny that there were still fans and that their outrage got any attention at all.

[jhlipton]

43 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

There's actually a TV Guide article about Oncers being ticked off over the last scene being cut due to the news. I thought it was funny that there were still fans and that their outrage got any attention at all.

Guess what?  When there's a "breaking story" (which is often not much at all, but in this case was pretty big), ALL shows are going to be interrupted.  Get over yourselves.

[Shanna Marie]

The final scene is on the Tube of You, in case you don't want to force yourself to watch the entire streaming/on demand episode to see the last 20 seconds. The one I found starts with the scene between Zelena and Margot, and that's what's in the thumbnail visible before you start the video, so it took me a while to realize that was the video I wanted. My guess is that there was a disconnect between the network and the news division on this. The news cut-in actually came at 8 (Central), but the episode was slotted to run until 8:01. The news people must have assumed that the previous program would end on the hour and didn't realize the program wasn't over, so they cut in on the hour.

10 hours ago, CCTC said:

She set a young boy on fire because he was mad that she left him to get eaten by a witch (who she probably would not have cared had she not fallen in love with his father). 

Worse, she set a child on fire because he told his father the truth about what she did in leaving him to be eaten by a witch. I guess that's more of this show's evil secret truth telling. The moral of the show is that telling someone the truth about what someone else did when that person didn't want the truth told is the worst evil you can ever do.

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

when was this flashback supposed to have taken place?  If this was right after Zelena defeated Glinda, then it doesn't fit the characters' ages, as others said above.

Nothing this season fits with the characters' ages, so why start now? If we go by Regina's age relative to Snow's age, and Zelena's age relative to Regina's age, and then throw in Robyn's age, Zelena should be close to 70 right now.

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

And where was it supposed to have taken place?  This is the Disenchanted Forest Hansel, right?  So why would his father be living in Original Recipe Oz? 

I think it's actually Oz Hansel. He must have later moved to the Disenchanted Forest. Since moving between realms is easy now.

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Gingerbread house looked like it was a cartoon.  The CGI is getting worse and worse.  I did have a laugh at how easily the giant peppermint hard candy knocked the wind out of Zelena, though.  Zelena was so powerful in the past, but a candy chandelier easily knocked her out? 

I thought the gingerbread house looked like the kind of thing that would be used as a backdrop for a preschool play, put together and painted by moms who got some ideas from Pinterest. I halfway expected to see small children come out and stumble and lisp through lines fed to them by their teacher and then burst into tears because they wanted their mothers. And, yeah, wasn't Zelena with that pendant supposed to be such a powerful witch that only the most powerful light magic could defeat her? I'm not sure that giving Margot that pendant is such a good idea, considering its history, and does it still have any power?

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

Why would this Curse give Rumple other people's possessions?

What's weird is that there are things from the pawn shop in that evidence locker. So how/why would this curse transfer stuff from the previous curse? Did the Gepetto's parents puppets suddenly disappear from the pawn shop in 2017 or so (or earlier, if they've been here three years)? Or did Rumple take them with him when he and Belle went exploring, so these are things he had with him when he got caught in this curse?

2 hours ago, CCTC said:

Speaking of dialogue -- wow is there a lot of stilted speeches and clumsy exposition.

I was getting that "sounding out the words in his lines from a cue card" sense from Nick, and he hasn't bothered me before. He sounded perfectly natural in the past, but he was so stilted it was painful in this episode.

[CCTC]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I thought the gingerbread house looked like the kind of thing that would be used as a backdrop for a preschool play, put together and painted by moms who got some ideas from Pinterest.

That just gave me a flash back to the really expensive fundraiser Lucy danced in and Jacinda catered that was supposed to look like a $500 per ticket event.  Whatever happened to Lucy's dancing?  Does she do anything now besides hang out at a bar?  Does she ever spend time in that all important community garden?

Edited April 14, 2018 by CCTC

[Shanna Marie]

29 minutes ago, CCTC said:

Whatever happened to Lucy's dancing?  Does she do anything now besides hang out at a bar?  Does she ever spend time in that all important community garden?

I'm totally okay with spending as little time with Lucy as possible, so I don't care if she's dancing in Offscreenville. But that community garden was supposed to be the thing that was weakening the curse with Hope and Belief, but I guess that only applied when it seemed Victoria had cast the curse and is now irrelevant with Victoria out of the picture.

I'm still wondering how they're defining "breaking the curse." It seems that it's easy enough to wake people so they know their true identities. Is that what breaking the curse entails, like with Curse 1? Or would breaking the curse send them back to the right time and place? Why not just go around waking everyone but without breaking the curse? Would Henry die if he remembered he was poisoned? Or would he be dumb enough to kiss Jacinda while they both remembered who they were and their relationship, so it would be a TLK that would break the curse?

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

When there's a "breaking story" (which is often not much at all, but in this case was pretty big), ALL shows are going to be interrupted. 

I think the anger was from how little of the show was left before it was interrupted. There was nothing so urgent, happening right at that moment, that they couldn't have waited 30 seconds or so to finish the scene (I think really less than 15 seconds of actual show was cut. The rest of what wasn't shown was credits and the promo for next week). On my station, that much time was spent on a countdown before they switched over, and then there was some time with a news anchor before the "breaking" stuff happened. It would have been more understandable if it had been half an hour into the show and the breaking news couldn't have waited that long, but for less than 30 seconds to complete the show, it was kind of ridiculous. As I said above, I think the problem is that the show was scheduled to run over by about a minute, and the news cut in on the hour, possibly with the person making the switch decision not knowing that the show was scheduled to run to 8:01. They thought they were waiting until the end of the program, and that meant they cut off the very ending of the episode. I'm more annoyed by the fact that you have to have cable to watch the episode on streaming the next day. It's supposed to be a broadcast network, but they limit the available programming to those who have a cable account, so only people with cable will be able to see the whole episode until a week later.

[kili]

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Worse, she set a child on fire because he told his father the truth about what she did in leaving him to be eaten by a witch. I guess that's more of this show's evil secret truth telling. 

Zelena burnt Hansel because he threatened her with a knife. After he told his Dad the truth, Zelena tried to get the Dad to take the witch's sight. He refused (smart man - taking an evil witch's sight is probably going to end badly), so Zelena got mad and threw the sight powder in the fire. As she turned to leave, Hansel grabbed a knife from the fire and threatened her: "You witch! You don't deserve to walk away from this." She disarms and punishes him by using the fire to burn his arms.

She could have disarmed him without harming him, but she didn't do it just because he told the truth. Kid Hansel actor brought the crazy with that look after he was burned. 

The casting of kid-Gretel was fantastic. So much like adult-Gretel.

After Henry refused to drink the water because it might be drugged, I began wondering about that bathroom situation.

Isn't Henry just a little bit concerned that the crazy serial killer is spouting the same nonsense as Lucy? He believes that Lucy is Nick's daughter, so why isn't he suggesting a psych consult? Is Lucy beginning to show the same delusional signs that resulted in her father becoming a crazed serial killer?

The emerald did nothing except not go with the outfit that Zelena was wearing. "Here Zelena, wear this protective necklace and go home where the killer knows you live." Was he trying to get her killed?

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Did the Gepetto's parents puppets suddenly disappear from the pawn shop in 2017 or so (or earlier, if they've been here three years)? Or did Rumple take them with him when he and Belle went exploring, so these are things he had with him when he got caught in this curse?

You never know what kind of kinky shit they were into. :-p

36 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But that community garden was supposed to be the thing that was weakening the curse with Hope and Belief, but I guess that only applied when it seemed Victoria had cast the curse and is now irrelevant with Victoria out of the picture.

I guess so. But couldn't they have tied it in with Gothel's Gardening obsession to keep it somewhat relevant? Almost everything introduced in the first half of the season seems utterly pointless now.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

That just gave me a flash back to the really expensive fundraiser Lucy danced in and Jacinda catered that was supposed to look like a $500 per ticket event.  Whatever happened to Lucy's dancing?  Does she do anything now besides hang out at a bar?  Does she ever spend time in that all important community garden?

 

This fits with how the show hardly gives characters the semblance of a normal life.  We never see Jacinda working at the food cart.  What does she do all day now?  It's not that I want to see more of the character, but it doesn't seem like they have a life outside of the scenes we see.

Wouldn't Nick hate gingerbread cookies/houses after his ordeal?  Why would he give that to Lucy?  

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Nothing this season fits with the characters' ages, so why start now? If we go by Regina's age relative to Snow's age, and Zelena's age relative to Regina's age, and then throw in Robyn's age, Zelena should be close to 70 right now.

The difference with this transgression is that for the most part, all the flashbacks for the original characters have taken place after the Season 6 finale.  I think A or E said something about not having flashbacks that repeats the time we've already seen previously and this is the first one that I can recall.

Once again, I think they wrote this backwards... they needed Zelena's life to be threatened, they had made Hansel the serial killer; thus, they bent over backwards to force  a flashback that fit with this new scenario.  

We've seen episode after episode of redeeming villains do stuff in the past they regret, but Zelena setting fire to Hansel's arms was extremely anticlimatic.  Hansel was indeed bratty (yes, victims are brats) but I don't know why that particular scenario for how Hansel got his scars took me out of the episode.

59 minutes ago, kili said:

The emerald did nothing except not go with the outfit that Zelena was wearing. "Here Zelena, wear this protective necklace and go home where the killer knows you live." Was he trying to get her killed?

I know it was supposed to be very reflective and philosophical, but as you said, it was useless and pointless and it felt like filler.  What did accepting her past have to do with defeating Nick, as Rumple seemed to be implying when he gave her the emerald?  Ultimately, Zelena was forced into telling Chad the truth.  Or was the whole point for Zelena to realize that she deserves happiness regardless of her past?  That still has nothing to do with the emerald.  Maybe they needed Robyn to have it in a future episode or something.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

We've seen episode after episode of redeeming villains do stuff in the past they regret, but Zelena setting fire to Hansel's arms was extremely anticlimatic.  Hansel was indeed bratty (yes, victims are brats) but I don't know why that particular scenario for how Hansel got his scars took me out of the episode.

It felt very anticlimactic to me as well. I guess A&E wanted to "surprise" viewers with the shocking twist that Hansel did not get the scar from the Blind Witch, but because of Zelena. But it felt flat.

[tennisgurl]

The timeline on this show gives me a migraine. Where does this fit into Zelenas story? This is after she turned green, but before she went to Storybrooke, but she apparently knows what Candy Crush is, so...when the hell does this take place? And was she still in Oz? Theres a Hansel and Gretal in Oz too? What are the freaking odds? I know I've made jokes about the Authors being a bunch of lazy losers, but do they seriously keep finding the same stupid stories in every possible world? How did both Hansel and Gretel manage to get to the Disenchanted Forrest? Or wherever. And why are they adults, and Zelena is the same age? I know its easy to jump worlds and timelines now, but this is starting to get ridiculous. And the witch here went blind too? Again, what a coincidence! Honestly, I wanted to spend more time with the kids. They seemed like good actors (better than some of the regular adults!) and they did a good job finding younger versions of the adult actors. 

I swear, the leaps in reality in this show stagger the mind. What is going on at any point in any time?!?! Has all of reality fallen apart and been shoddily sewn back together? Did the Scarlet Witch have a melt down? Did Superboy Prime punch another hole in reality? Did Barry Allen run really really fast again? Did Walter Bishop create another Alternate Universe machine? What is freaking happening?!?!

Anywho, onto actual stuff that happened. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, so thats something. At least with Zelena, I do feel like she does actually feel bad for the evil she has done, unlike a lot of "redeemed" villains, who it seems like just become good or evil depending on whats convenient for them. I still roll my eyes at all the "its on the past" stuff for whenever anyone brings up people being held responsible for their actions, but at least Zelena admitted that she made those choices herself, and didnt just try to shove the blame onto other people, like other villains have. Of course, she also shares her sisters mentality of "if you for one second dont accept my apology for being evil, I will BURN YOUR ARMS OFF that'll show you for thinking I`m evil!" tendencies. 

I did enjoy Rumple and Zelenas interactions, and how they clearly still can only barley tolerate each other. His utter disdain for her is pretty hilarious, and its nice to see that just because everyone is in the same fucked up extended murder family now, they dont exactly have to get along. 

You can tell the actor playing Nick didnt really understand his motivations dung his big villain speeches. He`s been pretty good so far, and he was trying, but he couldn't save dialogue that lame. Its kind of weird that, in the apparently long time Henry and he were friends, that Henry never noticed this barely held in crazy murderous side. Was Jack/Hansel killing witches on the side during his adventures with Henry, or is this a new thing? And, yes, just like I thought, we`re basically doing Greg again. Kid gets hurt by magic, comes back as a crazy adult who hates magic and wants to kill everyone with it, so that we dont have to feel bad for the victims and can keep feeling bad for the villains. Second verse, same as the first. At least this one doesn't have wrist bands of science that are actually magic or whatever. GOD that plot was stupid. 

Look, the whole "crazy extremist wants to kill people with powers" thing isnt bad, in and of itself. Tons of shows and movies make that work (its basically the backbone of the entire X-Men franchise) and while its usually about as subtle in its anti prejudiced moral as a mack truck, it can work pretty well if played right. But, this show just cannot make this work! It wont commit to it! Probably because its world building about how magic works is so half assed, you dont have any idea how people even have magic powers, and most of the people we meet who do, usually ARE evil, were evil, or are like the fairies and are completely useless. Yeah Emma had her vaugly defined Savior power, but I still have no idea how any of that crap worked (is she genetically prone to being a Savior? Is it random? Is it because of the curse?) so who knows how that would fit in. Normally when you have these stories, you have to have some people the villain wants to kill who haven't actually done anything wrong beyond existing to make it work. Here, Jack killed members of the evil coven (who are evil) and Zelena, a woman who he remembers as hurting him and his family. It just doesn't work, if thats even what they were going for. Honestly, I dont even know. 

If this was Zelenas swan song, I guess it could have been worse, but it could have been a LOT better. I appreciate that she didnt kill Jack, and that she showed some self awareness, but her going back to a fiance who is just some dude we dont know, is pretty anti climactic. Kind of like her big evil deed with Jack. We`ve seen Zelena do worse than that, this is hardly an "OMG" moment. 

And Dr. Facilier is behind it all! And this curse is SUPER easy to break, good to know. 

[Camera One]

16 hours ago, rogvortex58 said:

Weaver is a pretty useless detective. He needed Henry to identify who the killer was, and he needed Zelena to catch him.

I don’t know why he even bothers pretending to be a cop, when protecting and serving is the last thing he cares about.

Yeah, everyone is dumber than a box of rocks.  Only Rogers has a brain.  Even Jacinda had no idea that Nick calls her "J".  But Rogers figured it out after spending a few hours with the guy.

13 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

As a normal boyfriend, Chad was a flop. I actually think it would have been more poignant if they had broken up and Zelena had elected to stay with her daughter and sister. I guess abc didn't agree to bring Mader back for more than a few episodes, but it was not a well-judged exit. We keep saying goodbye to so many charatcers with incomplete arcs. We haven't seen hide or hippie hair of the supposed main villain, Gothel, in weeks. The pacing for the last series of episodes is all over the place. 

As usual, they brought a character back but seemed to have no plan in how to use her.  Plotwise, Zelena has done nothing useful.  As many said, why not bring Chad on earlier, and build that relationship if this was their endgoal?  I have doubts they even knew her endgoal when they brought her back. Their strategy last year and this year, of closing a door on each subplot in consecutive episodes the backhalf of the season (last year: bye bye Evil Queen, bye bye Aladdin, etc.) has made this show even more disjointed.  

12 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

The writing was clumsier than usual and there were some choices in terms of set up for the sets that didn't work. Why would Rogers take the time to back into the parking spot if he was in that much of a hurry to ask Jacinda if she had seen or heard from Henry? Yes, it allowed for the hurried drive away moment, but it seemed odd.

That stood out to me too.  Like the scene was to highlight the sharp and dramatic car backup.

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12 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

One would think they would be more careful about using names like Zelena, Regina, Dark One, etc.

I did think it was weird how Zelena called Regina "Roni" when they were alone in the bar together.

Quote

Nick was woken up by Dr. F. Cool. 

They surely cannot try to make Dr. Facilier the true love forever for Regina at this point, can they?  Or are they going to spin that it was ok to kill Nick because he was a killer.  He was responsible for Regina's sister being the target.  We never saw him trying to stop that in this episode, so he surely can't be a loving boyfriend.  But who knows... after that "I did it all for you" explanation for the Anastasia/Drizella exit episode, I'm not sure what these Writers think they can pass off.

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was getting that "sounding out the words in his lines from a cue card" sense from Nick, and he hasn't bothered me before. He sounded perfectly natural in the past, but he was so stilted it was painful in this episode.

Maybe it was the monologues.  I know we were supposed to be moved but when I was watching that, it seems like they were trying so hard to make him a conflicted/grey/conflicted character.  Too little, too late, Writers. 

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

You can tell the actor playing Nick didnt really understand his motivations dung his big villain speeches. He`s been pretty good so far, and he was trying, but he couldn't save dialogue that lame. Its kind of weird that, in the apparently long time Henry and he were friends, that Henry never noticed this barely held in crazy murderous side. Was Jack/Hansel killing witches on the side during his adventures with Henry, or is this a new thing? 

Apparently, he became a fun guy and he only reverted after he met Henry's "family".  So we're supposed to believe he completely let go of the revenge against Gothel and the Blind Witch before that?  Riiight.

10 hours ago, kili said:

Zelena burnt Hansel because he threatened her with a knife. After he told his Dad the truth, Zelena tried to get the Dad to take the witch's sight. He refused (smart man - taking an evil witch's sight is probably going to end badly), so Zelena got mad and threw the sight powder in the fire. As she turned to leave, Hansel grabbed a knife from the fire and threatened her: "You witch! You don't deserve to walk away from this." She disarms and punishes him by using the fire to burn his arms.

Ultimately, I guess it was a temper tantrum.  Zelena was never truly threatened since she could have apparated out of there in a cloud of green smoke.  I guess it was especially anticlimatic because some bratty teenager is not a worthy adversary and just a few moments earlier, she had actually softened considerably.  In earlier flashbacks, at this early stage, I don't remember Zelena doing stuff like this.  She sent Dorothy away safely home, and she imprisoned Glinda. It seemed like she became more ruthless after Dorothy came back as an adult.  But I don't really remember the details of all the past flashbacks, so maybe it was consistent, who knows.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[kili]

Quote

Did the Gepetto's parents puppets suddenly disappear from the pawn shop in 2017 or so (or earlier, if they've been here three years)? Or did Rumple take them with him when he and Belle went exploring, so these are things he had with him when he got caught in this curse?

Maybe they are the wish versions of Gepetto's parents who Rumple did the same thing to.

I kind of hope that before the series ends, that some instance of Gepetto's parents get freed. Those people never deserved what happened to them and maybe freeing them is one of the acts Rumple must do before he is pure enough to be with Belle.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think it's actually Oz Hansel. He must have later moved to the Disenchanted Forest. Since moving between realms is easy now.

The weird thing is Oz is supposed to be in the same "universe" as the Enchanted Forest.  There shouldn't be an Oz Hansel or an Oz Gingerbread Witch.  I thought maybe this New Gingerbread Witch was from the Disenchanted Forest and took Disenchanted Hansel and Gretel with her.  But that got blown to hell when they showed Hansel and Gretel's father living in Oz.  

[Rumsy4]

Now we have multiple versions of characters in the same Universe. Not that they've explained why the DF is different from the EF. 

[Camera One]

15 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Now we have multiple versions of characters in the same Universe. Not that they've explained why the DF is different from the EF. 

Yeah, if they wanted to do that, Jacinda could have been Oz Cinderella, LOL.

[tennisgurl]

This show just has the best messages, doesn't it?

 

Its ok to murder and torture countless innocents, as long as you stop at some point. Then its all good! 

Kids, never tell the truth. Lie about everything, and never blab secrets, especially to grown ups. Snitches get stitches. 

Having sex with someone when they think your someone else or forcing them to sleep with you isnt such a big deal really. 

You are not a unique individual. There a billions just like you, and you are very expendable. 

Killing someone who is threatening you or others is evil. Killing someone who is no longer a threat but was mean is good. 

You should thank anyone who ruined your life. Misery builds character, and if your life wasn't horrible, you'd be a song singing loser. 

Dont try to save lives. It could inconvenience their murderers. 

Giving speeches about hope and goodness is so much better than actually doing anything to make the world a better place!

 

Isn't all that so hopeful!?!

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The moral of the show is that telling someone the truth about what someone else did when that person didn't want the truth told is the worst evil you can ever do.

I'm pretty sure the working title of the show was Snitches Get Stitches but they felt that was too on the nose, so they changed it. Seriously though, murdering someone is okay, but telling on someone is punishable by death. Oh this show. 

 

The worst thing this show ever did was deciding to have multiple universes. They are just not good enough to pull it off. 

[Camera One]

The problem is they failed to adhere to their own rules that they set when Season 7 began.  In this episode, seventeen episodes in, they wanted to have another Hansel in Zelena's flashback, so they broke their own implied rule and now this "world" makes even less sense than it did.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its kind of weird that, in the apparently long time Henry and he were friends, that Henry never noticed this barely held in crazy murderous side. Was Jack/Hansel killing witches on the side during his adventures with Henry, or is this a new thing?

Jansel may not have been that crazy at that time. Gretel wasn't killed until after Regina and WHook joined them, since Regina taught Drizella magic, and it was after this that Gothel recruited her and pitted her against Gretel. Before his sister was killed, Jack/Hansel might have had some issues but might not have snapped yet. I don't remember when Jack showed up to act out The Empire Strikes Back with Henry -- were they still doing the Resistance thing at that time or was it later, around the time Lucy was born?

5 hours ago, kili said:

Isn't Henry just a little bit concerned that the crazy serial killer is spouting the same nonsense as Lucy? He believes that Lucy is Nick's daughter, so why isn't he suggesting a psych consult? Is Lucy beginning to show the same delusional signs that resulted in her father becoming a crazed serial killer?

That's a good point. The guy they believe is Lucy's father turned out to be a crazy serial killer, and his delusions are exactly the same as Lucy's, including stuff that wasn't in the book. From what they've said about the book, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Jacinda is really Cinderella or that Henry and Cinderella had a daughter. Even Henry couldn't figure out where Lucy got all that. And now Nick is saying the same things. That should be a bit disturbing.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The weird thing is Oz is supposed to be in the same "universe" as the Enchanted Forest.  There shouldn't be an Oz Hansel or an Oz Gingerbread Witch.  I thought maybe this New Gingerbread Witch was from the Disenchanted Forest and took Disenchanted Hansel and Gretel with her.  But that got blown to hell when they showed Hansel and Gretel's father living in Oz.  

They aren't really clear on the difference between Realms, Worlds, and Universes. The Wishverse has to be an alternate universe because it has the same people, with history just taking its own turn. And because it's a separate universe, it apparently has its own Wonderland, Neverland, etc.

It's harder to tell what the distinction is with the Disenchanted Forest. It seems to have its own Wonderland that's different from the Enchanted Forest Wonderland, but it has the same Oz as the Enchanted Forest. Is it just a different world, or is it a separate universe? They didn't have to make this story take place in Oz to confuse matters, given that Zelena had the magical silver shoes of travel.

[Camera One]

29 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Jansel may not have been that crazy at that time. Gretel wasn't killed until after Regina and WHook joined them, since Regina taught Drizella magic, and it was after this that Gothel recruited her and pitted her against Gretel. Before his sister was killed, Jack/Hansel might have had some issues but might not have snapped yet. I don't remember when Jack showed up to act out The Empire Strikes Back with Henry -- were they still doing the Resistance thing at that time or was it later, around the time Lucy was born?

That could explain things.  Though as late as the Curse being enacted, Hansel was still hanging out with Henry and his family, so he must have hid his growing extremism really well.

Quote

They aren't really clear on the difference between Realms, Worlds, and Universes.

It's harder to tell what the distinction is with the Disenchanted Forest. It seems to have its own Wonderland that's different from the Enchanted Forest Wonderland, but it has the same Oz as the Enchanted Forest. Is it just a different world, or is it a separate universe? They didn't have to make this story take place in Oz to confuse matters, given that Zelena had the magical silver shoes of travel.

I think it's been pretty clear thus far that the Disenchanted Forest is supposed to be more segregated, with the implication it's a very different place.  It was their initial explanation for why there's a different Cinderella, Rapunzel, Alice, etc. 

I don't think it is possible to conclude from this episode that the Disenchanted Forest has the same Oz as the Enchanted Forest.  Based on having a separate Wonderland, the logical conclusion is the Disenchanted Forest has a separate Oz.  Both Oz and Wonderland are destinations in the Room of Doors.

And then the Unblind Witch mentioned Arendelle, muddying the waters even more.  Why would Ozians know about Arendelle?

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[CCTC]

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The Wishverse has to be an alternate universe because it has the same people, with history just taking its own turn. And because it's a separate universe, it apparently has its own Wonderland, Neverland, etc

I am only half-joking, but I am not sure they even remember that.  I am wondering if they even put any thought of where their scenes are taking place and how easy or difficult it is for various people to be in these places.  They also all look the same - same forest, same trees, same technology, same dress, same ports etc.  Some of that is because they are filming in the same locations and using some of the same sets, but it does not seem like much creativity was used in making places special and unique.

[Shanna Marie]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I don't think it is possible to conclude from this episode that the Disenchanted Forest has the same Oz as the Enchanted Forest. 

Well, Zelena was there, and the people there knew about her banishing the other witches. So if it's a different Oz, Zelena was also hanging out there, also banished the good witches there, and ruled both Ozzes.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Well, Zelena was there, and the people there knew about her banishing the other witches. So if it's a different Oz, Zelena was also hanging out there, also banished the good witches there, and ruled both Ozzes.

But then where's the other version of the Wicked Witch of the East?  Because the Writers contradicted themselves, it's difficult to come up with any coherent explanation.  The emerald was presumably the same one she got from Glinda in 3B.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But then where's the other version of the Wicked Witch of the East?  Because the Writers contradicted themselves, it's difficult to come up with any coherent explanation.  The emerald was presumably the same one she got from Glinda in 3B.

That's why I think it's the same Oz. There's just the one Oz in this universe, while there seem to be two Wonderlands.

Really, it's possible that there's just the one Wonderland that happened to have two entirely different girls named Alice visiting. Alice isn't a rare name, and it's not like there's any similarity whatsoever in their stories. Alice 1.0 was from Victorian Literature World, went as a child after following the White Rabbit, returned as an adult to find proof that she'd been there and fell in love with Cyrus, then returned again to find Cyrus. Alice 2.0 was the daughter of Captain Hook and Gothel, living most of her life in a tower, going to Wonderland among lots of other places after escaping the tower and resenting being called "Alice in Wonderland." I think they said it's a different Wonderland in interviews, but we didn't see anything onscreen that would suggest it being the same world at maybe a different time or in a different part of the world. We haven't seen a different Queen of Hearts, Red Queen, or White Rabbit. Everything would make so much more sense if it's the same Wonderland at a different time.