S13.E17: The Thing

[SueB]

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't believe that even now Cas is all that welcome in Heaven.  He's done a lot of damage there.  It's usually a pretty stressful thing when he goes back, and he normally doesn't inform the Winchesters when he does.

I presume Cas was off looking for the Seal of Solomon, he speaks a boatload of ancient languages. He could be looking in some archives in the Vatican.  Or Poughkeepsie.   

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

I presume Cas was off looking for the Seal of Solomon, he speaks a boatload of ancient languages. He could be looking in some archives in the Vatican.  Or Poughkeepsie

If only Davy Perez had bothered to drop a damn line of dialogue  so we don't have to make up headcanon. I wonder if the Scoobynatural ep screwed this up or the placementin the season messed with this ep and they didn't correct it.

If this  ep happened before Scoobynatural then Cas absence is explained easily as him being in Syria. Has no international calling, and so they, and we know where he is. But he came back was with the boys with an accomplished task for the whole mission.

when one considers all stupid through lines they do practically every episode to explain Cas absences this is the one time they don't. So dumb.

Edited April 12, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If only Davy Perez had bothered to drop a damn line of dialogue  so we don't have to make up headcanon. I wonder if the Scoobynatural ep screwed this up or the placementin the season messed with this ep and they didn't correct it.

If this  ep happened before Scoobynatural then Cas absence is explained easily as him being in Syria. Has no international calling, and so they, and we know where he is. But he came back was with the boys with an accomplished task for the whole mission.

when one considers all stupid through lines they do practically every episode to explain Cas absences this is the one time they don't. So dumb.

Dean using the Scoobyisms and Sam's response to it wouldn't make any sense then though.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean using the Scoobyisms and Sam's response to it wouldn't make any sense then though.

Eh, Dean's used Scoobyisms before. He's used Ruh Roh, referenced Scooby snacks, made references to Daphne and Velma. I think him throwing in a jinkies wouldn't have been non sensical. And Sam shits all over Dean's happy stuff anyway most of the time, so if he didn't like him saying Jinkies that would be no different than him not liking Dean doing any of the other goofy things Dean does and says.

I'm just saying that IMO, the Syria answer would have worked better in this episode than having him come back in Scoobynatural. They could have just made Scoobynatural happen before Cas went to Syria and made it kind of a one off. But IMO the existence of Scoobynatural and it's placement posed a problem for this episode that maybe they didn't consider. Unless they just never planned to account for Cas' whereabouts in this ep ever in order to push Dean into AW without Cas or Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, Dean's used Scoobyisms before. He's used Ruh Roh, referenced Scooby snacks, made references to Daphne and Velma. I think him throwing in a jinkies wouldn't have been non sensical. And Sam shits all over Dean's happy stuff anyway most of the time, so if he didn't like him saying Jinkies that would be no different than him not liking Dean doing any of the other goofy things Dean does and says.

I'm just saying that IMO, the Syria answer would have worked better in this episode than having him come back in Scoobynatural. They could have just made Scoobynatural happen before Cas went to Syria and made it kind of a one off. But IMO the existence of Scoobynatural and it's placement posed a problem for this episode that maybe they didn't consider. Unless they just never planned to account for Cas' whereabouts in this ep ever in order to push Dean into AW without Cas or Sam.

Oh, I agree with the reasoning, for sure. But Sam's 'you're going to stop saying that soon' really implies that it's a recent and recurring thing.

[takalotti]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If only Davy Perez had bothered to drop a damn line of dialogue  so we don't have to make up headcanon. I wonder if the Scoobynatural ep screwed this up or the placementin the season messed with this ep and they didn't correct it.

If this  ep happened before Scoobynatural then Cas absence is explained easily as him being in Syria. Has no international calling, and so they, and we know where he is. But he came back was with the boys with an accomplished task for the whole mission.

when one considers all stupid through lines they do practically every episode to explain Cas absences this is the one time they don't. So dumb.

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean using the Scoobyisms and Sam's response to it wouldn't make any sense then though.

 

More than that, this episode couldn’t have happened before Scoobynatural because if Cas were still in Syria searching for the fruit from the tree of life, then Dean (and Ketch) wouldn’t be through the rift at the end of this one.

[catrox14]

Just now, takalotti said:

More than that, this episode couldn’t have happened before Scoobynatural because if Cas were still in Syria searching for the fruit from the tree of life, then Dean (and Ketch) wouldn’t be through the rift at the end of this one.

Fair enough. I'll just stop trying to make it work better LOL. I'll live with the stupidity.

[Bergamot]

From my rewatch of the episode today, a few of my favorite moments:  I loved the way Dean so resignedly said "I love books!", with a dramatic little gesture, as he and Sam faced going through the archives once again -- he was like a kid who didn't want to do his homework.  And I liked the callback to this later, when they enter the other chapter house and Dean goes "Great! More books!" and then we get Sam's deadpan response, "You love books!" 

I liked Dean putting money in the little jukebox at the diner when he noticed Sandy's interest in it -- I thought it was kind of sweet.

I also liked the way that Dean, when the fight in the diner first started, quickly called Sandy to him and told her to sit down in the booth. At first I wondered why he said "Sit down" instead of "Get behind me" or "Get out of sight" or something like that. I decided that he was already thinking strategically about the battle and wanted her somewhere protected that would be out of the way of the combatants. Just a little thing, but I like watching Dean in fights. This one was a good one!

I also enjoyed Dean's sarcasm when dealing with Yokoth-Sandy -- such a contrast with his chivalrous kindness toward what he thought was real Sandy. He made me laugh with his "Let me guess -- you're not from around here" and "It's like a Hallmark move, but with tentacles!" That was almost some Demon Dean level of nasty sarcasm there -- not that there was anything demonic involved, but it is something Dean has in him, when he just lets loose with his inner smart aleck.

Unfortunately one thing bothered me more upon rewatching. I could not understand why Yokoth-Sandy waited so long to "get food in her belly". Why did she pretend to be Sandy for so long, and go along with Dean and Sam, and tell them the whole story of what happened to Sandy in such an emotional performance? As far as I know, she couldn't be killed by any of them, so she wasn't in any danger. She was just weak from being starved, after having been prevented from eating people for a hundred years.

So why did she wait to eat the young man from the diner when he came outside, if she needed "food" that badly? She could have started eating the people in the diner right away, as soon as they got there. Or actually, she could have eaten Dean and Sam as soon as they freed her. (I guess it was a good thing she enjoyed looking at Dean's face!) I kept looking for some reason for her pretending to be human for as long as she did, and then suddenly revealing herself when she did, but couldn't find it. Just another one of those big blank spaces left in the episode that we are supposed to fill in, I suppose -- it's really too bad that these writers seem to make a habit of leaving them.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

So why did she wait to eat the young man from the diner when he came outside, if she needed "food" that badly? She could have started eating the people in the diner right away, as soon as they got there. Or actually, she could have eaten Dean and Sam as soon as they freed her. (I guess it was a good thing she enjoyed looking at Dean's face!) I kept looking for some reason for her pretending to be human for as long as she did, and then suddenly revealing herself when she did, but couldn't find it. Just another one of those big blank spaces left in the episode that we are supposed to fill in, I suppose -- it's really too bad that these writers seem to make a habit of leaving them.

I agree wholeheartedly with all your 'likes'. *g* u

I also agree that it was weird she didn't go after Dean and Sam right away, or at least the diner patrons. I'm 5000% sure we'll never know why. But I believe the young man wasn't the first one she ate - all the other bodies (MoL legacies?) were already on the ground when he came out. He was last, not first.

Edited April 12, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
typo

[sarthaz]

She wasn't strong enough to feed yet.  *BOOM* :)

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

She wasn't strong enough to feed yet.  *BOOM* :)

What did she power up from then? Kale? *POW* :p

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Unfortunately one thing bothered me more upon rewatching. I could not understand why Yokoth-Sandy waited so long to "get food in her belly". Why did she pretend to be Sandy for so long, and go along with Dean and Sam, and tell them the whole story of what happened to Sandy in such an emotional performance? As far as I know, she couldn't be killed by any of them, so she wasn't in any danger. She was just weak from being starved, after having been prevented from eating people for a hundred years.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I also agree that it was weird she didn't go after Dean and Sam right away, or at least the diner patrons. I'm 5000% sure we'll never know why. But I believe the young man wasn't the first one she ate - all the other bodies (MoL legacies?) were already on the ground when he came out. He was last, not first.

My theory is that she was taking the advantage Dean and Sam provided to get away from the MoL bunker offshoot as stealthily as possible.  She hadn't eaten for a long, long time, so a little bit longer wasn't going to be that big of a deal... but if she could get away - and since she likely didn't know how to drive,*** eating the people who did wasn't going to facilitate her getaway -  and especially if she could get away without attracting a lot of attention and then eat and get strong, then that would be a really good strategy. But when she looked outside and saw the MoL adjacent people, she knew the jig was up, so she might as well go ahead and eat, because stealth was no longer an option. So it made some sense at some point to go ahead and blow cover. She could have played the damsel in distress to Sam and Dean with only a few of them coming and reasonably think maybe Sam and Dean could get her out of it, but as more showed up, nope, time for plan B - might as well eat 'em and get strong on her own and go for in your face brute force.

*** TMI personal story: I know it's a TV and movie trope that people just want to dive into driving and can do it easy-peasy, and there are some people like that. Me, I don't drive and it's been a loooong time since I drove on my learner's permit (never got a real license), so I've forgotten how to drive. It's no coincidence that some of my bad dreams involve me trying to drive for some reason... and nope it never ends well with me just figuring it out and driving off unscathed. So someone / something who may have never seen a car like the modern cars - I don't blame the monster for saying nope, nope, nope. I'll let the one with the pleasant face drive me somewhere safe first before I do anything suspicious.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I liked Dean putting money in the little jukebox at the diner when he noticed Sandy's interest in it -- I thought it was kind of sweet.

This was an awesome little scene. I loved it to pieces.

 

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I also enjoyed Dean's sarcasm when dealing with Yokoth-Sandy -- such a contrast with his chivalrous kindness toward what he thought was real Sandy. He made me laugh with his "Let me guess -- you're not from around here" and "It's like a Hallmark move, but with tentacles!" That was almost some Demon Dean level of nasty sarcasm there -- not that there was anything demonic involved, but it is something Dean has in him, when he just lets loose with his inner smart aleck.

His mouth is a weapon when it's allowed to go unchecked.

I loved, loved, LOVED! his "Whew. You're making me blush..." ;-D

[sarthaz]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What did she power up from then? Kale? *POW* :p

Fanwank is going with the sun and/or time/distance from her magical chains.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What did she power up from then? Kale? *POW* :p

Kale is the new spinach?

[takalotti]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

His mouth is a weapon when it's allowed to go unchecked.

Hey oh!

[gonzosgirrl]

I asked in this week's thread but it's actually about this episode, so: did I miss an explanation as to how the MoL acquired Archangel grace? We see Sandy pouring grace into the bowl for the spell at the end of the episode, and presumably they must've needed some in 1917 as well. Where did it come from?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I asked in this week's thread but it's actually about this episode, so: did I miss an explanation as to how the MoL acquired Archangel grace? We see Sandy pouring grace into the bowl for the spell at the end of the episode, and presumably they must've needed some in 1917 as well. Where did it come from?

I don't recall it being explained. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't recall it being explained. 

Seems like a pretty big plot-point considering

Spoiler

what it took to obtain Gabriel's and what it seems Dean is considering to get more.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Seems like a pretty big plot-point considering

  Hide contents

what it took to obtain Gabriel's and what it seems Dean is considering to get more.

Agreed. I'm just saying I can't recollect it being mentioned.

Spoiler

I suspect it will a thing like if Dean does what we think he's going  to do then it will be all for naught when someone else figures it out.

[takalotti]

I haven’t watched the next episode yet, but I just wanted to say that not only did they not explain where the MoL got their archangel grace from (assuming that’s what it was and they didn’t have some other recipe that no one talked about because why would they ??), but they also didn’t happen to mention "Too bad they had exactly one batch left and Sandy used it. Womp womp."

Edited April 14, 2018 by takalotti

[SueB]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I asked in this week's thread but it's actually about this episode, so: did I miss an explanation as to how the MoL acquired Archangel grace? We see Sandy pouring grace into the bowl for the spell at the end of the episode, and presumably they must've needed some in 1917 as well. Where did it come from?

Not explained but I presumed the crazy grandpa cultist who got two doses and got eaten before he used the second dose.  Further fan theory: the robe & tattoo progeny ensures the ‘kit’ was always ready to use as part of their duties.  Hence fresh pomegranate also available.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Not explained but I presumed the crazy grandpa cultist who got two doses and got eaten before he used the second dose.  Further fan theory: the robe & tattoo progeny ensures the ‘kit’ was always ready to use as part of their duties.  Hence fresh pomegranate also available.  

How did he get the grace in the first place, though? Which archangel gave it to them? Did they steal it? Did they make some other deal to get it?

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How did he get the grace in the first place, though? Which archangel gave it to them? Did they steal it? Did they make some other deal to get it?

No clue.  Seriously.   A wizard did it logic applies.  

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

No clue.  Seriously.   A wizard did it logic applies.  

And I always reject that because it's not logic. LOL It's a fallback for a plot hole LOL

I agree with @gonzosgirrl that there is no good reason at all for the show to ignore this HUGE thing unless it's for a later reveal. This is a Davy Perez script so I can go either way on it being saved for later or bad writing LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How did he get the grace in the first place, though? Which archangel gave it to them? Did they steal it? Did they make some other deal to get it?

Exactly. Prior to Lily Sunder (I think?), we were meant to believe angels hadn't been to Earth for millennia. So not only were angels wandering around falling in love with humans, there was at least one Archangel spilling some grace somewhere. Oy.

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

I haven’t watched the next episode yet, but I just wanted to say that not only did they not explain where they the MoL got their archangel grace from (assuming that’s what it was and they didn’t have some other recipe that no one talked about because why would they ??), but they also didn’t happen to mention "Too bad they had exactly one batch left and Sandy used it. Womp womp."

Ha! Yes she did. And it was definitely grace she dumped into the bowl. It's my assumption it had to be Archangel grace, since that's the canon (at least for a couple weeks). IMO it's more than just a LOL!Canon quibble I can handwave away, considering the lengths I'm guessing they'll have to go to to get more.

Edited April 14, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

On 4/12/2018 at 6:21 PM, Bergamot said:

Unfortunately one thing bothered me more upon rewatching. I could not understand why Yokoth-Sandy waited so long to "get food in her belly".

My explanation is that since Sam and Dean found her in the men of letters butter she probably but 2 and 2 together and knew that they were either MoLs themselves or somehow connected to them.  Since they were the ones that caught her she didn't want to risk being chained up again before she was free and clear.   Even though she couldn't be killed, she knew that in her weakened state it might be possible for Sam and Dean to take her down and lock her up again. 

On 4/12/2018 at 6:21 PM, Bergamot said:

I liked Dean putting money in the little jukebox at the diner when he noticed Sandy's interest in it -- I thought it was kind of sweet.

 

On 4/12/2018 at 6:21 PM, Bergamot said:

I also enjoyed Dean's sarcasm when dealing with Yokoth-Sandy -- such a contrast with his chivalrous kindness toward what he thought was real Sandy. He made me laugh with his "Let me guess -- you're not from around here" and "It's like a Hallmark move, but with tentacles!" That was almost some Demon Dean level of nasty sarcasm there -- not that there was anything demonic involved, but it is something Dean has in him, when he just lets loose with his inner smart aleck.

I really liked these two things are well.  I've missed Dean's sarcasm in the face of danger.  I also liked that he managed to save himself one handed. 

I also really liked that Dean gave her his shirt, to help keep her warm since she only had a sleeveless dress.

[DittyDotDot]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I asked in this week's thread but it's actually about this episode, so: did I miss an explanation as to how the MoL acquired Archangel grace? We see Sandy pouring grace into the bowl for the spell at the end of the episode, and presumably they must've needed some in 1917 as well. Where did it come from?

I had the same comment up thread and had the same question back in S8 with regards to angel feathers. Either an archangel gave up his grace willingly or the MoL captured and stole the grace from an archangel; both scenarios I find highly unlikely. But, no, it wasn't explained in the episode.

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ha! Yes she did. And it was definitely grace she dumped into the bowl. It's my assumption it had to be Archangel grace, since that's the canon (at least for a couple weeks). IMO it's more than just a LOL!Canon quibble I can handwave away, considering the lengths I'm guessing they'll have to go to to get more.

So, I guess the good new sis that there is no (or a very long one) shelf life on archangel grace.

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My explanation is that since Sam and Dean found her in the men of letters bunker she probably but 2 and 2 together and knew that they were either MoLs themselves or somehow connected to them.  Since they were the ones that caught her she didn't want to risk being chained up again before she was free and clear.   Even though she couldn't be killed, she knew that in her weakened state it might be possible for Sam and Dean to take her down and lock her up again.

Okay, that works! Actually I think there have been several good suggestions here as to Yokoth-Sandy waited as long as she did to reveal herself. But it still bothers me that we as viewers have to fill in this blank space ourselves, considering that the fact that Sandy was not really Sandy was the center of the whole story of the episode.

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ha! Yes she did. And it was definitely grace she dumped into the bowl. It's my assumption it had to be Archangel grace, since that's the canon (at least for a couple weeks). IMO it's more than just a LOL!Canon quibble I can handwave away, considering the lengths I'm guessing they'll have to go to to get more.

I agree! And as @takalotti mentioned, I think what bothers me more than whatever explanation there might be for how they got the archangel grace, (because of course they could come up with some reason, whether it made sense or not), is the way that neither Dean nor Sam asked that question themselves.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I agree! And as @takalotti mentioned, I think what bothers me more than whatever explanation there might be for how they got the archangel grace, (because of course they could come up with some reason, whether it made sense or not), is the way that neither Dean nor Sam asked that question themselves.

That's a good point. Considering the fact that they didn't have any yet, you would have thought they would have asked where they had gotten it before and if there was any left.

[SueB]

On 4/13/2018 at 11:04 PM, catrox14 said:

And I always reject that because it's not logic. LOL It's a fallback for a plot hole LOL

I agree with @gonzosgirrl that there is no good reason at all for the show to ignore this HUGE thing unless it's for a later reveal. This is a Davy Perez script so I can go either way on it being saved for later or bad writing LOL

Absolutely (to the bold stuff).  But you could take a couple of logic steps to get to that plot hole IMO. Which makes it slightly better for me.  Further, "the BMoL have a ton of antique and deadly supernatural stuff lying around" is a show trope.  So, it's not quite as far of a stretch to say that somehow they were able to get some Archangel juice when they have the Spear of Destiny, a key to Oz, and a book on grace extraction.  

As to whose grace?  Well whomever they could cut a deal with to get it?  Less likely to be Lucifer or Michael but Raphael might have done it, or Gabriel.  They were not fighting to be top dog, handing over a little grace for something they wanted but couldn't take by force?  I could see that trade.  

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

So, it's not quite as far of a stretch to say that somehow they were able to get some Archangel juice when they have the Spear of Destiny, a key to Oz, and a book on grace extraction.  

Those are more or less relics that they gathered along the way that don't come close to archangel grace. That to me can't even be addressed with wizard "logic" or anything else.

Why would an archangel have given up it's grace back in 1920 when as @gonzosgirrl noted, angels weren't on this earth according to Cas in s4. There is a big hole here that you can drive the Impala through. And for me no answer is not an answer.  The MoL doesn't seem to be a group that dates back 2000 years. Although at this point I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to make that retcon as well.

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Those are more or less relics that they gathered along the way that don't come close to archangel grace. That to me can't even be addressed with wizard "logic" or anything else.

Why would an archangel have given up it's grace back in 1920 when as @gonzosgirrl noted, angels weren't on this earth according to Cas in s4. There is a big hole here that you can drive the Impala through. And for me no answer is not an answer.  The MoL doesn't seem to be a group that dates back 2000 years. Although at this point I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to make that retcon as well.

Well, Gabriel was hiding on earth.  We don't know for how long.  I don't think he would be included in the "angels haven't been on earth in a while" umbrella.  And, he's an archangel.  Why would he give grace to an MOL?  That I can't answer.  I'll sleep on it and come up with something at least imaginative if not probable.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'll sleep on it and come up with something at least imaginative if not probable.

...which is more than the writers can do.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

...which is more than the writers can do.

#Truth

Maybe he thought they were dicks so he figured it was worth a little grace to watch them unleash a couple hungry tentacle monsters on the world.

[SueB]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Those are more or less relics that they gathered along the way that don't come close to archangel grace. That to me can't even be addressed with wizard "logic" or anything else.

Why would an archangel have given up it's grace back in 1920 when as @gonzosgirrl noted, angels weren't on this earth according to Cas in s4. There is a big hole here that you can drive the Impala through. And for me no answer is not an answer.  The MoL doesn't seem to be a group that dates back 2000 years. Although at this point I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to make that retcon as well.

And an Angel Feather was something kept in the stores of the MoL because Gramps Henry used it to time travel.  There are two elements from S4 that IMO have been undermined since S4:

1) That angels have no free will -- Anna was BIG on that, but Cas is the living embodiment of "not so much". My retcon is that Angels were conditioned against Free Will by Michael & company (to keep them in line) but Anna's rebellion itself is showed free will.  Further, the most angels did run around like "Lead Me Landru*" but some rose up to leadership and most ended up with some level of demonstrated free will. Regardless, the Archangels always seemed to possess Free Will and they were not God so they had some limitations.  Simple things like Holy Oil could trap Raphael.
2) That Angels weren't on earth for 2000 years prior.  Cas' garrison monitored Earth.  Anna said she had been "away from home" (on Earth) for centuries.  We had an episode where they confronted an angel on earth.  I think 'weren't on earth' was an oversimplification by Cas (at best).  Clearly they were.

 

Bottom line: Tons of ways to work around two "absolutes" presented in S4.

So, I'm rejecting the notion that they neither knew Angels weren't around. Cas may simply have been kept in the dark.  Something as simple as an incantation that trapped an Archangel via Holy Oil would be all that it takes.  Then it's "give me two vials of your grace and we'll let you go" hostage exchange.  LOTS of issues with how they could get away with it and not be toasted later, but there could be a torturous path where they get away.  Look at the skills of Cutberth Sinclair.  He might have pulled it off.  

Edited April 16, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

And an Angel Feather was something kept in the stores of the MoL because Gramps Henry used it to time travel.  There are two elements from S4 that IMO have been undermined since S4:

1) That angels have no free will -- Anna was BIG on that, but Cas is the living embodiment of "not so much". My retcon is that Angels were conditioned against Free Will by Michael & company (to keep them in line) but Anna's rebellion itself is showed free will.  Further, the most angels did run around like "Lead Me Landru*" but some rose up to leadership and most ended up with some level of demonstrated free will. Regardless, the Archangels always seemed to possess Free Will and they were not God so they had some limitations.  Simple things like Holy Oil could trap Raphael.
2) That Angels weren't on earth for 2000 years prior.  Cas' garrison monitored Earth.  Anna said she had been "away from home" (on Earth) for centuries.  We had an episode where they confronted an angel on earth.  I think 'weren't on earth' was an oversimplification by Cas (at best).  Clearly they were.

 

Bottom line: Tons of ways to work around two "absolutes" presented in S4.

So, I'm rejecting the notion that they neither knew Angels weren't around. Cas may simply have been kept in the dark.  Something as simple as an incantation that trapped an Archangel via Holy Oil would be all that it takes.  Then it's "give me two vials of your grace and we'll let you go" hostage exchange.  LOTS of issues with how they could get away with it and not be toasted later, but there could be a torturous path where they get away.  Look at the skills of Cutberth Sinclair.  He might have pulled it off.  

None of that answers the question of why Dean or Sam didn't question its existence in this episode though, if only to check out the empty vial and say, sonofabitch!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

None of that answers the question of why Dean or Sam didn't question its existence in this episode though, if only to check out the empty vial and say, sonofabitch!

Yup. That's the big question.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Yup. That's the big question.

There was a time jump over commercial break.  They could have done it while they were explaining their need.  In fact, I'd be shocked if they didn't.  

I understand the "if I don't see it, it didn't happen" philosophy but vehemently disagree.  We don't see Sam & Dean pee & poop, yet I am confident that they do in offscreenville.  

So... how big of a question is it really?  We see them finishing up their explanation and getting the Seal of Solomon from the Outpost.  They saw that the monster used the same ingredients and method they intended to use.  I find it unlikely that they didn't ask if there were any more supplies.  Certainly we saw there was most holy man blood available but no more grace or fruit left in the box the monster used.   I find it improbable that the Outpost would give them the Seal of Solomon but not ask if they had the rest of the ingredients or hide if they did.  Clearly YMMV, but I didn't have to break a sweat for this answer.  

So, IMO, they asked and there was no more left. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

We don't see Sam & Dean pee & poop, yet I am confident that they do in offscreenville

And that is immaterial to the storytelling. Viewers don't care whether Sam and Dean pee and poop on screen. We know human beings do that. We know they eat but eating is a fun thing to show on screen. Who wants to see them pee and poop unless well you're into that kind of thing.

It's material to the story how the grace was found and why the boys didn't inquire considering that's a huge thing they need to complete the spell.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And that is immaterial to the storytelling. Viewers don't care whether Sam and Dean pee and poop on screen. We know human beings do that. We know they eat but eating is a fun thing to show on screen. Who wants to see them pee and poop unless well you're into that kind of thing.

It's material to the story how the grace was found and why the boys didn't inquire considering that's a huge thing they need to complete the spell.

I do think a line saying "well, if we can trap and archangel like you did, then we should be able to get the grace to complete the spell" would have scratched that itch.  I think they saved the "we only need archangel grace" line for the Ketch/Gabriel reveal.  

So, I think it would have been nice to have the line, but it wasn't fundamental (for me, I understand it was a big deal for some).

[annspal]

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

We don't see Sam & Dean pee & poop, yet I am confident that they do in offscreenville. 

We don't have to assume. The show is not shy about mentioning that Dean hadn't pooped in a week (after experiencing angelic time travel, was it?) or that Dean Smith was on a cleanse. That we manage to get bathroom information makes the common sense gaps more frustrating.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, Gabriel was hiding on earth.  We don't know for how long.  I don't think he would be included in the "angels haven't been on earth in a while" umbrella.  And, he's an archangel.  Why would he give grace to an MOL?  That I can't answer.  I'll sleep on it and come up with something at least imaginative if not probable.

OK, Gabriel was playing a trick on an MOL.  That seems probable enough.  They try to kill him with a trickster killing stake (sorry, I don't remember exactly what it was that killed a trickster).  They found out it didn't work and discovered Gabe was an angel.  Also, possible. S&D did the same thing in S5.  Then they trapped him in holy fire and only agreed to let him go if they gave him a little bit of his grace and a few feathers.  

[mertensia]

I always just figured Cas was lying about how long it had been since angels walked the earth. Why wouldn't he? 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

I always just figured Cas was lying about how long it had been since angels walked the earth. Why wouldn't he? 

Why would he? He didn't have any reason to lie. I'm pretty sure back in s4 that Kripke's script was intending for Cas to be telling the truth about the angels.

The fact that it's even a question now is indicative of much of the problem with the show these days. IMO it's Singer who is allowing all these canon blow ups because most of them happen with Buck Lemming writing. For Lily Sunder that Yockey's 2nd script so IMO the onus is on Singer, and Dabb,  to make sure past canon isn't completely changed and if it is changed that it doesn't undermine a character which obviously they don't care about as long as they get the plot they want.

So in this episode, an archangel giving up or being stripped of grace in 1920 or before is another retcon that harms a character, in this case Cas even though that damage was done in Lily Sunder. And now it's harming Dean and Sam by them not even inquiring, musing, questioning, pondering, wondering, thought bubbles over their heads, as to where they got that grace.

For this viewer, that's a problem because this show has never been an anthology nor 100% MoTW with no overarching mythos or character progression but with Buck Lemming, they basically do treat it that way. IMO they mostly just don't care and I think their visions have influenced the show more than anyone. Yes Perez wrote this episode but it seemed much more like a Buck Lemming thing.

Edited April 16, 2018 by catrox14

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would he? He didn't have any reason to lie. I'm pretty sure back in s4 that Kripke's script was intending for Cas to be telling the truth about the angels.

Taking my reply to all episodes.

[millennium]

As a native Rhode Islander I feel compelled to point out that the pallid seafood patties placed before Dean in the diner were NOT Rhode Island clam cakes.

These are clam cakes:

[mertensia]

I still want to know what stuffies (that is what they were called, right?) are.

[millennium]

6 hours ago, mertensia said:

I still want to know what stuffies (that is what they were called, right?) are.

I'm not a seafood lover but we used to serve stuffies in the restaurant where I worked as a teen (in Rhode Island).    You take a quahog (a big, hard-shelled clam), scoop out the meat of the clam, chop it up, mix in bread crumbs, herbs, onions, etc., then put it back in the shell and bake it.  And eat it.  Ugh.

My favorite Rhode Island local food is dynamites.   Dean would love them.