Supernatural Relationships: Blood Is Thicker Than Water

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There was no romance here. It was a mild flirtation at best IMO.  

Yep, a flirtation.  If she had been around more, maybe they would have taken it further, but you can't call something a romance just because it might have happened if given the opportunity.  Well, I suppose you can call it whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true.  And, I don't really remember Jo ever "putting Dean in his place."  Ooh,  a mild argument in No Exit, yeah, she really told him.  Or, she stuck to her guns about liking REO Speedwagon.   Hey, I'm all for not acting like someone you're not to impress a guy, but it's not really "putting him in his place." It's not like he ever did anything around her need putting into place.  I had no idea had such strong feelings about this post until I started typing, LOL.  Now, I'm all worked up for some unknown reason. 

BTW, this is not a criticism of Jo. This is a criticism of moviefone's statement about Jo and Dean.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

Yep, a flirtation.  If she had been around more, maybe they would have taken it further, but you can't call something a romance just because it might have happened if given the opportunity.  Well, I suppose you can call it whatever you want, but it doesn't make it true.  And, I don't really remember Jo ever "putting Dean in his place."  Ooh,  a mild argument in No Exit, yeah, she really told him.  Or, she stuck to her guns about liking REO Speedwagon.   Hey, I'm all for not acting like someone you're not to impress a guy, but it's not really "putting him in his place." It's not like he ever did anything around her need putting into place.  I had no idea had such strong feelings about this post until I started typing, LOL.  Now, I'm all worked up for some unknown reason. 

BTW, this is not a criticism of Jo. This is a criticism of moviefone's statement about Jo and Dean.

LOL, I started to post my own rant about her putting Dean in his place.

Nah, she tried when she falsely accused him of being a male chauvinist, and he actually turned the tables on her by pointing out that women can do the job just fine but rookies can't. I would have bought a romance between Ellen and Dean before Jo and Dean.  Ellen is the only one that kind of put him in his place (whatever place he got out of I don't know). But Ellen became the maternal figure.   Dean and Jo is a fanon ship, not a romance. 

And Sam and Ruby...at least she mentioned they were garbage but why even put them on the list at all? That was not a romance either. It was demon blood fueled, vengeance driven fuck fest with a side of manipulation and disaster. LOL

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

And Sam and Ruby...at least she mentioned they were garbage but why even put them on the list at all? That was not a romance either. It was demon blood fueled, vengeance driven fuck fest with a side of manipulation and disaster. LOL

A user and his dealer.  I would call it prostitution before I would call it a romance or relationship.  I actually love Ruby as a character, because she's just so good at manipulation.  But, that doesn't make them a couple.

[bearcatfan]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean and Jo is a fanon ship, not a romance. 

Agree, although I do think Jo initially had a crush on Dean. Which he did not reciprocate until possibly late in the game but by  that time, she was over her crush. Either that or she didn't want a fling just because the world was going to end. None of which makes it a romance.

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I don't really remember Jo ever "putting Dean in his place." 

They could be referring to the scene in Abandon All Hope where Dean propositions Jo. She turns him down and says that if they're going to die, she'd rather keep her self-respect.

Quote

DEAN
So. Dangerous mission tomorrow. Guess it's time to eat, drink, and, you know, make merry.

JO
Are you giving me the last-night-on-earth speech?

DEAN
What?

JO
What?

DEAN
No.

They laugh.

DEAN
If I was, would, uh, would that work?

JO leans in for a kiss, but stops at the last moment.

JO
No. Sweetheart, if this is our last night on earth, then I'm going to spend it with a little thing I call self-respect.

JO laughs and leaves.

DEAN
If you're into that kind of thing.

[catrox14]

Just now, auntvi said:

They could be referring to the scene in Abandon All Hope where Dean propositions Jo. She turns him down and says that if they're going to die, she'd rather keep her self-respect.

Even that I don't see as putting Dean "in his place". He hit on her with a cheesy line, which she rejected. Dean's been rejected plenty in his life. But of course, they kind of undue her turning him down with that last minute kiss before dying...not saying I wouldn't have kissed Dean before I died, I wouldn't have said no to either option! Also, if she was into him why was she all "I'm keeping my self respect" whatever Jo. You wanted to get with Dean, who are you kidding, girl. LOL

[auntvi]

Jo was always kinda saucy with Dean. IMHO it was a smart-alecky put down, but no big deal.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

They could be referring to the scene in Abandon All Hope where Dean propositions Jo. She turns him down and says that if they're going to die, she'd rather keep her self-respect.

Quote

DEAN
So. Dangerous mission tomorrow. Guess it's time to eat, drink, and, you know, make merry.

JO
Are you giving me the last-night-on-earth speech?

DEAN
What?

JO
What?

DEAN
No.

They laugh.

DEAN
If I was, would, uh, would that work?

JO leans in for a kiss, but stops at the last moment.

JO
No. Sweetheart, if this is our last night on earth, then I'm going to spend it with a little thing I call self-respect.

JO laughs and leaves.

DEAN
If you're into that kind of thing.

I don't consider that putting him in his place either.  I would consider the end of Simon Said when Ellen told him he couldn't keep the family secrets because it affected everyone putting him in his place.  To me, being put in your place means you try to overstep and someone calls you on it.  A turned down proposition of any kind, unless the proposition or the turn down is  overtly aggressive, isn't being put in your place, it's just being told no, thanks.

[MysteryGuest]

I liked Jo, and would have been happy if she and Dean had turned into something.  I don't think she necessarily "put him in his place", but I think she could and would have definitely stood her ground with him, which is how I take this person's comment.  I personally think Dean liked her fine, and if things had been different, who knows.  But this show doesn't do relationships well, and every time they tried, the fans lost their shit, so I don't see any romance in the boys' futures.

[rue721]

I wanted to like Jo, but found her a little bland. She and Ellen were good together, though -- they each made the other more interesting IMO. I would have liked to see more of them as a team. I also like the actress, so I thought that Jo had unrealized potential based on just the strength of the actress alone.

It might have been cooler to see Sam and Dean join them on cases, versus seeing Jo tag along or get pulled into working a case or two alone with Sam and Dean, a la No Exit.

At the same time, I couldn't ever really see Jo and Dean as a couple. Just personality-wise, I can't see it. Dean seems like he has a pretty specific type for the women he wants to get into relationships with, and Jo isn't really that type. In a way, I think Jo is too outgoing and maybe actually too much like Dean. And for Jo, it seemed like the Winchesters inadvertently screwed up her life so much that, ultimately, I can't really see her wanting to be at her MOST vulnerable and actually in a relationship with either of them. (And I assume a friends with benefits or other "non-relationship" thing wasn't on the table, because Jo seemed to specifically not want that).

[catrox14]

From the All Seasons Thread

 

Quote

hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

While I agree with much of your analysis, I'm not as sure the shift starting here was so clear cut... at least not on Sam's end. And I would more say that it was Castiel's mind in some respects that more had to change to seeing Sam as a friend and more than just Dean's brother than it was Sam. For me the shift actually began in season 7. Even after Castiel broke Sam's wall and made him go crazy, it was Sam who was the first to forgive Cas and was the one who didn't give up on him. There was an understanding there, because Sam knew what it was like to mess up and disappoint Dean, and so he could relate. That was when Sam declared Cas "One of us" when he was calling for him. And then later in that season, Cas took on Sam's crazy in order to save him, thereby saving Sam from a personal hell if not the real thing.

 

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I never found it particularly believable that Sam could forgive Cas for breaking his wall as easily as he did.

IMO, you (the royal you)  forgive so you don't get stuck in a cycle of resentment and anger which only destroys your own happiness and peace of mind.  Forgiveness allows the harmed person to move on. I think Sam had to forgive Cas for Sam's own peace of mind more so than out of a particular caring or fondness or desire to be friends with Cas or for Cas' sake at all.  . Similarly, I think Cas taking on Sam's memories was for Cas, to relieve Cas of his own guilt and to make amends. I really don't think they did it FOR each other per se but for their own sakes and their own peace of mind. 

And in another probable unpopular opinion, I think they have tried to make amends for Dean's sake more than for the sake of wanting to be friends with each other.  IMO, without Dean as their common denominator one would have killed the other by now.  Cas in First Born annoyed me because it didn't take being human to relate to humanity, since Dean had already shown him what it meant to be human which is why he chose to side with Dean/humanity against the angels. I was always kind of disappointed with Robbie for that. That is the one part of First Born that I greatly disliked. Never mind the whole notion that Cas had to learn hugging from Sam. He's hugged them both before.

Whereas  I think Dean has been and continues to be fond of Cas even when Cas pisses him off. And Cas is similarly fond of Dean. Even when they argue and betray each other, and are not particularly kind to each other IMO, they have never been shown to really dislike or hate or have contempt for one another.

[Wayward Son]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From the All Seasons Thread

 

 

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I never found it particularly believable that Sam could forgive Cas for breaking his wall as easily as he did.

IMO, you (the royal you)  forgive so you don't get stuck in a cycle of resentment and anger which only destroys your own happiness and peace of mind.  Forgiveness allows the harmed person to move on. I think Sam had to forgive Cas for Sam's own peace of mind more so than out of a particular caring or fondness or desire to be friends with Cas or for Cas' sake at all.  . Similarly, I think Cas taking on Sam's memories was for Cas, to relieve Cas of his own guilt and to make amends. I really don't think they did it FOR each other per se but for their own sakes and their own peace of mind. 

And in another probable unpopular opinion, I think they have tried to make amends for Dean's sake more than for the sake of wanting to be friends with each other.  IMO, without Dean as their common denominator one would have killed the other by now.  Cas in First Born annoyed me because it didn't take being human to relate to humanity, since Dean had already shown him what it meant to be human which is why he chose to side with Dean/humanity against the angels. I was always kind of disappointed with Robbie for that. That is the one part of First Born that I greatly disliked. Never mind the whole notion that Cas had to learn hugging from Sam. He's hugged them both before.

Whereas  I think Dean has been and continues to be fond of Cas even when Cas pisses him off. And Cas is similarly fond of Dean. Even when they argue and betray each other, and are not particularly kind to each other IMO, they have never been shown to really dislike or hate or have contempt for one another.

Well we have had Dean ordering Cas' assassination. (See 3.30)

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Well we have had Dean ordering Cas' assassination. (See 3.30)

And that wasn't Actual!Cas, It was CrazyGod!Cas in "Meet the New Boss".   Dean was scared of what God!Cas was going to do to the world.  Dean tried to talk him down first until it was clear that Cas was not himself and was probably not even alive anymore according to whatever was in control of Cas at that time. Dean didn't think he had another choice. In the end, they were saying their sad farewells and then Cas becomes Leviathan!Cas and walks into the the reservoir at the beginning of  "Hello, Cruel World". at which point Dean starts carrying around Cas' trenchcoat in the back of his car (and apparently transferred it to every other car they had that season).

I'm still not seeing the hatred, spite and contempt for ACTUAL!Cas in that situation. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "All Episodes Talk" thread:

44 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly don't think Sam's forgiveness of Castiel was necessarily due to fondness he had for Castiel. I think, as you referenced in your post, that his forgiveness was due to a more general understanding of Castiel's situation. Sam knows what it is like to be the one who has screwed up, to be the one who has turned on those who care about you and needs forgiveness. I think this empathy has made him remarkably forgiving, almost too forgiving at times because he feels the need to extend the forgiveness Dean gave him to others. Another example of this nature being his willingness to ultimately forgive Gadreel for using his body to commit atrocious acts. I don't want to sound like I'm taking away something from Sam because his forgiveness of Castiel was an amazing and generous act regardless of the motivation. However, I just don't see it as necessarily reflecting a particular fondness for Cas in particular but YMMO of course. 

In my opinion during seasons 5-8 Sam largely viewed Castiel as an ally in the fight against the supernatural and a friend of Dean's. I think when he refers to Castiel as one of us he means it in a "comrade in arms" sense rather than a familial one like Dean would have as early as season 6. As I mentioned on my last post IMO their encounter in First Born was a significant turning point for their relationship. It was then Sam hugged Castiel for the first time and started to regard him as a friend rather than an ally who was Dean's friend. Then of course that friendship expanded over the next year and a half until ultimately by season 12 Sam considers Cas family just like Dean does :)

I guess I can see this, though there seemed to be more - to me anyway - of his calling Castiel "one of us." Sam seemed to express a lot of emotion just before that when Dean declared Cas a lost cause "He's not! He's in there somewhere. I know it." Now part of that might have come from the situation, since Sam was also in one of his "I'm not going to give up, there has to be something we can do to fix this" emotional tirade things - which I entirely love about him - so it is hard to separate from that. But to me little things even before that seemed to show more than just friend of my brother. For example how careful he was of Castiel when holding him to keep him from falling down after Cas returned in "The Song Remains the Same." Or how he realized that Dean hurt Cas' feelings in "Mommy Dearest," but of course there were some rough patches along the way - like Sam's suspicion in later season 6 and his wondering if Castiel had brought him back soulless on purpose.

And of course Castiel is closer to Dean for all of the reasons you stated. And also not to take away from that moment in "First Born," because that was important - and one of the few things I liked about the second half of that season - but I think part of the reason that they got there was because they  both had that experience of messing up and disappointing Dean. I'm not so sure that their friendship wold have gotten as close then - maybe later when they were both concerned about Dean and the mark - if they didn't have that shared experience... so I guess for me that general understanding was part of why they eventually became closer, and it's hard for me to separate the two completely.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I never found it particularly believable that Sam could forgive Cas for breaking his wall as easily as he did.

IMO, you (the royal you)  forgive so you don't get stuck in a cycle of resentment and anger which only destroys your own happiness and peace of mind.  Forgiveness allows the harmed person to move on. I think Sam had to forgive Cas for Sam's own peace of mind more so than out of a particular caring or fondness or desire to be friends with Cas or for Cas' sake at all.  . Similarly, I think Cas taking on Sam's memories was for Cas, to relieve Cas of his own guilt and to make amends. I really don't think they did it FOR each other per se but for their own sakes and their own peace of mind. 

Oh I agree that part of it was for Sam's own benefit, because also as I said, Sam was in one of his emotional "we've got to get this fixed" modes, also. But I think it is in character for Sam to forgive especially under those conditions - another example being Sam's willingness to potentially work with The Trickster even after all of the torture he put Sam through. And for me it all stemmed from his anger with John and realizing too late that not forgiving John when John was still alive really screwed him (Sam) up and that wasn't the way to go. But for me, after Sam forgave Castiel because it was best for the situation, I think Sam would've been more standoffish between them if it was only or even mostly for Dean's benefit. And Sam wouldn't have been as affected by things that Castiel said later - like their argument in "I Believe the Children..." when Sam was hurt by Cas' "You didn't" (make the right decision). Effected enough that he was still sort of emotional about it later when he was talking with Jesse. If he didn't care about Cas in some way, why would he much care what castiel thought.

I also found it interesting that when Sam was going through withdrawls again in "My Bloody Valentine," Sam didn't just call for Dean that time. He called for Cas, too.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And in another probable unpopular opinion, I think they have tried to make amends for Dean's sake more than for the sake of wanting to be friends with each other.  IMO, without Dean as their common denominator one would have killed the other by now. 

I don't think I agree with this... Castiel maybe would've killed Sam if he thought he had a good reason, but I couldn't see Sam killing Castiel or even wanting to for no apparent reason. I think since the beginning Sam has in a way wanted Cas' approval... or at least acceptance. And I haven't seen anything that would make me think he'd changed from that.

Now I'm not saying that the connection between Sam and Castiel is as strong as that of Castiel and Dean, but i don't think as of now especially, that it's non-existent either. Which is good, since Sam rarely gets to have characters that are really associated mostly with him very often - which is one of the reasons that I adored Sully so much: for me, it was nice to see a non-evil character who was connected to Sam, for Sam from the beginning, rather than because he was Dean's brother. (Jody might be one of the only other sort of examples... I don't include Amelia, because I don't think of her as a positive character.)

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even when they argue and betray each other, and are not particularly kind to each other IMO, they have never been shown to really dislike or hate or have contempt for one another.

But I haven't really seen this with Sam or Castiel either, myself... at least on Sam's end. Castiel may have started out with some contempt for Sam because of what he was, but I'm not sure how long that really lasted.

I may have more to say later - Something's bugging me that I don't think I remembered everything I was going to say here.

[SueB]

*stomps foot and crosses arms* (means I'm imagining petting Sam's luscious locks and considering him too precious for this world while childishly side-eyeing any suggestion that he doesn't have a huge forgiving heart). 

But seriously, I think Sam forgave Cas because:
1) Sam understood where Cas' motivation came from and it was ALWAYS a place of good
2) Cause he's Sam Freakin' Winchester and he understands good people screw up
3) Cause his past issues are less important than fixing the planet
4) And I actually believe he has a huge forgiving heart so long as he sees something as a screw-up versus malice and the other person realizes it's a screw-up
While I think Sam is smart enough to know that he has to let go of resentment, I don't think he does unless her REALLY can.  

In contrast, look at his feelings towards Crowley. I don't want Crowley to die but I thought it was TOTALLY in character for Sam to not forget all the bad he's done and be happy to attempt to kill him in S10.  Unlike Cas, Crowley's motivation has ALWAYS stemmed from a place of evil and self-interest.  Note: I really wanted him to list off all the people Crowley killed that pissed Sam off (including Tommy, Sarah, and baking girl).

Interesting enough, however, just this past episode, Sam saw Crowley do something that was slightly not!evil and only partially covered by self-interest.  And he THANKED Crowley.  I also think he was thankful for the Cas' save.

I'm not saying Sam is Team Crowley, but I think the Cas save and the recent Hell-hound hunt made working with Crowley more palatable than it had before.

[Wayward Son]

Taken from the Dean thread

 

In regards to Dean being put down for displaying his feelings. While I can see the point people are making about Sam and Mary I personally do not feel it applies to Castiel. 

I have been considering the times Dean and Castiel have argued this season and Dean has displayed negative feelings towards the Angel. In my opinion Castiel (and the narrative of their arguments) has never tried to belittle Dean's right to feel what he feels, not even in the most recent episode. I can't think of anything comparable to Sam's exasperated "Dean", or Mary's "I'm not just a mother" counter argument. The closest thing I could think of was their bickering in Lily Sunders Has No Regrets, but that was a mutual snark fest IMO. And even then once Dean spoke to him without the snark Castiel proceeded to accept and validate Dean's right to feel worried. Yes, Castiel does not "back down" from the argument. He maintains his viewpoint that taking on the personal risks that came with killing Billie was the right thing to do, but he also stated "I understand" about Dean's worries. So ultimately even though they still disagree he still acknowledges Dean's right to feel concerned. Cas does not try to dismiss Dean as hysterical or whatever. 

Even in this weeks episode he apologised for adding to Dean's worry. IMO the whole scene wasn't just him playing Dean. I think he genuinely wanted to return the tape (due to the guilt he felt making him feel he didn't deserve such a personal gift) and I think his apology was real. While I don't condone what Castiel did IMO his actions were driven first by wanting a win and later to protect the future he saw. I don't think there was any eye rolling about Dean's emotions from Cas' viewpoint

So overall I am not saying those who feel Cas has belittled Dean's right to expression his emotions are wrong, but I just personally don't feel Castiel has reacted negatively to Dean's display of feelings. In my opinions their points of disagreement this year have been related to tactical issues i.e was it right to kill Billie? Should they extract the Baby's grace or take it to heaven? Should the baby be born powered or no?  I don't think we've ever had any dismissive moments of " - eye roll- Dean's anger / worry Is so ridiculous" from Castiel. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So overall I am not saying those who feel Cas has belittled Dean's right to expression his emotions are wrong, but I just personally don't feel Castiel has reacted negatively to Dean's display of feelings. 

I actually agree with you. Cas is genuinely not someone who does that. In the latest episode it was Sam who immediately went with the disapproving "Dean" in reagard to Dean expressing anger. Which, noone says Sam has to join in but I wish he would stop policing Dean`s feelings all over the place. It is annoying.

Quote

 I think he genuinely wanted to return the tape (due to the guilt he felt making him feel he didn't deserve such a personal gift) and I think his apology was real. 

I`m undecided. He seemed genuine during the scene but in the aftermath it feels like he just needed access to Dean`s room and the Colt. I was disappointed by that. Anything else, okay, I could live with but that, I found really hurtful.   

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He seemed genuine during the scene but in the aftermath it feels like he just needed access to Dean`s room and the Colt. I was disappointed by that. Anything else, okay, I could live with but that, I found really hurtful.

Yeah, I agree.

Dean didn't seem especially hurt by it, so I'm not sure if there's really going to be any follow-up -- but IMO it was actually a really hurtful thing for Cas to do. I mean, Cas lied and manipulated the Winchesters in order to steal something out from under them. IMO that's a HUGE deal. Getting manipulated and played like that is a huge deal.

But I guess my fanwank is that there is enough mutual trust between Dean and Cas at this point that even Cas betraying/playing them doesn't shake Dean's fundamental trust in him.

IMO it's easier to believe that Sam would force himself to look past getting played like that than that Dean would, because Sam is always forcing himself to trust (even when he REALLY shouldn't), whereas Dean has more natural suspicion. But c'est la vie.

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m undecided. He seemed genuine during the scene but in the aftermath it feels like he just needed access to Dean`s room and the Colt. I was disappointed by that. Anything else, okay, I could live with but that, I found really hurtful.   

Yeah I can totally understand why you'd feel that way. There's definitely an ambiguity to the whole thing! 

The main reason I feel the apology was most likely genuine was due to his words to Kelly later in the episode namely "I am not someone you should place your faith in... I have just betrayed my friends, my family". In my opinion this reveals to us the audience Castiel is torn. 

On the one hand, he feels he is doing the right thing in terms of strategics. Cas feels he was right to work with heaven and keep the brothers out of it! There is a clear tactical divide between them. 

On the other hand, I don't think he has deluded himself in regards to the negative impact this is going to have on the brothers at an emotional level. He is well aware that although his intentions are pure the brothers aren't going to be happy with his actions. And that is why I feel throughout the episode he does try to offer apologies and explanation for his actions rather than adapting a "you're being a drama queen get over it" stance. 

And it is this seeming understanding that makes me think the apology and return of the mix tape was genuine. Of course I can totally understand why others might view the situation differently, and I'm not trying to force anyone into sharing my viewpoint :) 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

In my opinion this reveals to us the audience Castiel is torn. 

Castiel probably IS torn, because I think he does actually care about Sam and Dean. But at the same time...who cares if he's ambivalent, if regardless, he still can't be trusted?

He not only played them in order to steal the Colt from under Dean's pillow, but then he knocked them out and left them at the sandbox at the end of the episode. I dunno, I think that even if he feels bad about it, he's apparently just going to keep betraying them and exploiting their trust, and his manipulations have gotten more and more sophisticated over time, too.

I just don't know how much it matters whether he feels bad, given that he's betrayed them before and he's probably going to do it again. How can they trust him? And if they can't trust him, how close can they really be to him?

[Wayward Son]

27 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Castiel probably IS torn, because I think he does actually care about Sam and Dean. But at the same time...who cares if he's ambivalent, if regardless, he still can't be trusted?

He not only played them in order to steal the Colt from under Dean's pillow, but then he knocked them out and left them at the sandbox at the end of the episode. I dunno, I think that even if he feels bad about it, he's apparently just going to keep betraying them and exploiting their trust, and his manipulations have gotten more and more sophisticated over time, too.

I just don't know how much it matters whether he feels bad, given that he's betrayed them before and he's probably going to do it again. How can they trust him? And if they can't trust him, how close can they really be to him?

Well I hated what they did with Castiel here here as my posts in "bitch vs jerk" can attest, but then the thing is throughout the course of the show the brothers have also taken actions against each other that can be perceived as a betrayal. When's the point Sam and Dean should stop trusting each other? 

In regards to the sandbox scene there were definitely better ways Castiel could have handled it! Personally, I feel if he really had to knock them out he should have driven them to the bunker or somewhere safer for instance. 

However, I can see why Cas may have felt he had no choice in the matter. Whatever vision he saw convinced him it was paramount the baby needed to be born with all his powers intact. However, Sam and Dean had adapted a "it's our way or the highway" approach. They had made it clear that they were never going to be willing to compromise and let him and Kelly go because they were convinced (rightly or wrongly we have yet to see) Castiel was possessed or heavily influenced by the baby. Therefore, from Cas' perspective since it was essential he protect the child from Sam and Deans plan his options were knocking them out as he did so he and Kelly could leave unhindered, or an all out brawl. 

Obviously he cares about the brothers and doesn't want to cause them the extensive damage he'd have likely needed to inflict in a brawl so he went for the easier option. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

I think Sam and Dean both understand, how truly and deeply Cas loves them.  And any "dumbass" action he's taking it's done to protect them.  Or done because Cas feels like he must sacrifice himself for the world.  Dean got mad at Cas for the "Cosmic Consequences" moment because he understands Cas will do whatever he thinks he needs to -- even if it's against their wishes -- to protect the boys.  Seems like Cas never was asked to sign up to the "respect our decisions" agreement made during beer-bottle bowling.  

And I think they see themselves in Cas.  So yes, they'll be mad but I think more worried than mad. They understand what he's doing because they've done equally "dumbass" things themselves.  Cas is just more transparent about it and has a shit-ton more juice than they do (most of the time).  

The sandbox thing doesn't actually bother me either.  It was a child's playground next to the gateway to Heaven. The Angels are probably literally watching over them.  And I have no doubt that Cas' agreement to take on Dagon and kill Kelly included an agreement that the Winchesters would not be harmed. It was a suicide mission and he probably made some provisions before he went on (like 'you will recognize Sam and Dean Winchester for the heroes they are and cause them no harm' at a minimum).  Presuming Not!Joshua was in fact Joshua, then he always was "routing for those boys".  And even though he's gone now, it says something that the Angels had him lead them.  Says they've gained some wisdom.  Also, it's hard to ignore that God came back and hung out with the boys.  That Dean was the one who facilitated the resolution between Light and Dark.  I'm sure there are some Angels who want them skinned alive (beside Reapers), but I'd be surprised if that's "policy".  

Bottom  Line: With the things Dean said and the actions Cas took, I just feel like the boys will be more pissed than hurt.  They'll be worried but he's still family.  I think Cas thinks he's betrayed them but Cas doesn't understand that there's no "take backs".  He's family.  

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Sam and Dean both understand, how truly and deeply Cas loves them.  And any "dumbass" action he's taking it's done to protect them.  Or done because Cas feels like he must sacrifice himself for the world.  Dean got mad at Cas for the "Cosmic Consequences" moment because he understands Cas will do whatever he thinks he needs to -- even if it's against their wishes -- to protect the boys.  Seems like Cas never was asked to sign up to the "respect our decisions" agreement made during beer-bottle bowling.  

And I think they see themselves in Cas.  So yes, they'll be mad but I think more worried than mad. They understand what he's doing because they've done equally "dumbass" things themselves.  Cas is just more transparent about it and has a shit-ton more juice than they do (most of the time).  

The sandbox thing doesn't actually bother me either.  It was a child's playground next to the gateway to Heaven. The Angels are probably literally watching over them.  And I have no doubt that Cas' agreement to take on Dagon and kill Kelly included an agreement that the Winchesters would not be harmed. It was a suicide mission and he probably made some provisions before he went on (like 'you will recognize Sam and Dean Winchester for the heroes they are and cause them no harm' at a minimum).  Presuming Not!Joshua was in fact Joshua, then he always was "routing for those boys".  And even though he's gone now, it says something that the Angels had him lead them.  Says they've gained some wisdom.  Also, it's hard to ignore that God came back and hung out with the boys.  That Dean was the one who facilitated the resolution between Light and Dark.  I'm sure there are some Angels who want them skinned alive (beside Reapers), but I'd be surprised if that's "policy".  

Bottom  Line: With the things Dean said and the actions Cas took, I just feel like the boys will be more pissed than hurt.  They'll be worried but he's still family.  I think Cas thinks he's betrayed them but Cas doesn't understand that there's no "take backs".  He's family.  

Wonderfully put @SueB! As Bobby would say "family don't end in blood" on this show and Castiel is now considered family to those boys! There are going to be ups and downs. They are going to do stuff to each other the other won't like, but ultimately by this point it is never out of malice for any of them! They just live very high stake lives where the fate of the world is literally in their hands! And with such high stakes in hand all of them  may occasionally feel the need to take actions that the others won't like for the good of the others and the world at large. 

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t have too much of a problem with the end scene. Granted, it is not how I wanted them to resolve this and I think Cas acted in the wrong but this is the kind of bullshit they can get over.

The apology scene on the other hand was really soured for me when it turned out his purpose for seeking out Dean in the first place had been strategic. I wish they had found some other sequence of things because the scene was lovely as it was and quite mature and I would have prefered to keep it purely about the friendship.

I can fully buy that Cas regretted it but it`s like: he would not have sought reconcilliation then if he had not had an agenda? That is what I came away with and that is so disappointing. The friendship in and of itself should have been important enough to initiate that talk. And now, I feel that it wasn`t. 

[rue721]

22 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Therefore, from Cas' perspective since it was essential he protect the child from Sam and Deans plan his options were knocking them out as he did so he and Cas could leave unhindered, or an all out brawl. 

I think Cas probably felt he was justified -- and hell, maybe he WAS justified by some objective measure.

The Winchesters are tough, and it'll probably be water off a duck's back for them. But personally, if someone I trusted like a brother manipulated me in order to steal something precious from me, knocked me unconscious, and then abandoned my body by a major thoroughfare for a bunch of powerful dicks (aka, the angels), I would have a HARD time trusting them again. I mean, how unsafe would you feel being around someone who messed with you like that? How much would you worry about your own judgement, even?

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Sam and Dean both understand, how truly and deeply Cas loves them.  And any "dumbass" action he's taking it's done to protect them.  Or done because Cas feels like he must sacrifice himself for the world.

But @SueB, that's what you were saying about Mary, too.

I mean, maybe it's true for Cas. IMO he probably *believes* it's true (and maybe Mary does, too).

I just don't think it should be the going assumption that if someone screws you, it's "for your own good" lol. I find it hard to believe that it's EVER for your own good, let alone can be ASSUMED to be for your own good.

[SueB]

Just now, rue721 said:

I think Cas probably felt he was justified -- and hell, maybe he WAS justified by some objective measure.

The Winchesters are tough, and it'll probably be water off a duck's back for them. But personally, if someone I trusted like a brother manipulated me in order to steal something precious from me, knocked me unconscious, and then abandoned my body by a major thoroughfare for a bunch of powerful dicks (aka, the angels), I would have a HARD time trusting them again. I mean, how unsafe would you feel being around someone who messed with you like that? How much would you worry about your own judgement, even?

But @SueB, that's what you were saying about Mary, too.

I mean, maybe it's true for Cas. IMO he probably *believes* it's true (and maybe Mary does, too).

I just don't think it should be the going assumption that if someone screws you, it's "for your own good" lol. I find it hard to believe that it's EVER for your own good, let alone can be ASSUMED to be for your own good.

But they didn't really trust him again.  Sam lojacked his phone because he couldn't look them in the eye.

And it's not so much that someone screwing you "for your own good" is an acceptable thing, it's that the boys EACH have a few of those skeletons in their closet and know what that position feels like.  I fully expect them to yell at him and tell him it's "not okay".  But they'd be a bit hypocritical to not at least recognize they've had issues with this themselves.  

And Cas DOES pattern himself off of Sam and Dean (more Dean than Sam, but he's grown closer to Sam in the last two years). 

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Cas probably felt he was justified -- and hell, maybe he WAS justified by some objective measure.

The Winchesters are tough, and it'll probably be water off a duck's back for them. But personally, if someone I trusted like a brother manipulated me in order to steal something precious from me, knocked me unconscious, and then abandoned my body by a major thoroughfare for a bunch of powerful dicks (aka, the angels), I would have a HARD time trusting them again. I mean, how unsafe would you feel being around someone who messed with you like that? How much would you worry about your own judgement, even?

But @SueB, that's what you were saying about Mary, too.

I mean, maybe it's true for Cas. IMO he probably *believes* it's true (and maybe Mary does, too).

I just don't think it should be the going assumption that if someone screws you, it's "for your own good" lol. I find it hard to believe that it's EVER for your own good, let alone can be ASSUMED to be for your own good.

I get what you're saying and I agree Castiel's actions here were awful, but I also feel if we follow that logic Sam and Dean shouldn't trust each other either. They have both done stuff to each other the person has perceived as a betrayal to one another. I think as @SueB said they are self aware enough to realise they have displayed similar issues when in a similar situation in the past. 

I think we have to remember that all three of them can be very, very stubborn and if they feel the occasion calls for it adopters of the "my way or the highway" approach. Plus, they live in a very high stakes world where the fate of the world is quite literally in their hands. It makes sense that when they feel they have that weight on their shoulders all of them have at one point or another taken actions the others won't like. 

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t have too much of a problem with the end scene. Granted, it is not how I wanted them to resolve this and I think Cas acted in the wrong but this is the kind of bullshit they can get over.

The apology scene on the other hand was really soured for me when it turned out his purpose for seeking out Dean in the first place had been strategic. I wish they had found some other sequence of things because the scene was lovely as it was and quite mature and I would have prefered to keep it purely about the friendship.

I can fully buy that Cas regretted it but it`s like: he would not have sought reconcilliation then if he had not had an agenda? That is what I came away with and that is so disappointing. The friendship in and of itself should have been important enough to initiate that talk. And now, I feel that it wasn`t. 

Yeah it really sucks how the writers had to add that ambiguity and sourness to what would have been a wonderful scene if left alone. Although I can somewhat understand where Cas is coming from I really hate what they had him do this episode. In fact I now just want them to write him out because I'm sick of the writing team pulling this crap *sigh*

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

Just now, SueB said:

I fully expect them to yell at him and tell him it's "not okay".  But they'd be a bit hypocritical to not at least recognize they've had issues with this themselves.  

Personally, I don't care about whether Cas will receive "punishment" or get yelled at or be un/forgiven or whatever. YMMV, that just doesn't really matter to me.

My point is basically just that I expect the Winchesters to feel pissed off, and especially to feel hurt -- but what I would feel like in that situation is *vulnerable.* Because their best friend was able and willing to play them six ways from Sunday, and has before, and probably will again. But the Winchesters are super tough and are probably not feeling vulnerable even so, and I doubt the show will go into that. Just giving my two cents, though!

[Boopsahoy]

To me what sums it up was Castiel saying (paraphrasing here) He wanted to kill Kelly so that Dean and Sam didn't have to.  He knew how having to kill Kelly would affect them.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t have too much of a problem with the end scene. Granted, it is not how I wanted them to resolve this and I think Cas acted in the wrong but this is the kind of bullshit they can get over.

The apology scene on the other hand was really soured for me when it turned out his purpose for seeking out Dean in the first place had been strategic. I wish they had found some other sequence of things because the scene was lovely as it was and quite mature and I would have prefered to keep it purely about the friendship.

I can fully buy that Cas regretted it but it`s like: he would not have sought reconcilliation then if he had not had an agenda? That is what I came away with and that is so disappointing. The friendship in and of itself should have been important enough to initiate that talk. And now, I feel that it wasn`t. 

I'm still not sure if Cas actually did know where to find it from the jump. 

If he did then it suggests that he knew or suspected Dean kept the Colt under his pillow. I'm not sure how he would know this TBH.  I'll ponder the ways on my own :)

So I think what really happened is that Cas came in to apologize, give him the mixtape back, took a look around the room for the Colt JUST IN CASE and noticed it peeking out from under Dean's pillow so when Dean went to get a beer, Cas took it.

I think if Cas hadn't seen it peeking out from the pillow, he wouldn't have found it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I think Dean will feel hurt and betrayed for a hot minute.  I think he's much more concerned with what is up with Cas' new power to kill a Prince of Hell.

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

To me what sums it up was Castiel saying (paraphrasing here) He wanted to kill Kelly so that Dean and Sam didn't have to.  He knew how having to kill Kelly would affect them.

Good point! While his methods were deplorable (and you won't find me arguing otherwise) there was never any malicious intent meant against Sam and Dean. While I wish he'd just asked for the Colt I can understand why he didn't. There was no way they'd leave him to face a threat like Dagon without them and Cas wished to protect them from having to involve themselves in the dirty act of destroying the nephilim. 

Castiel motives were about protecting both the brothers and the world at large! He also knew they were likely to take his actions as a betrayal, which was a sacrifice he was willing to take if it kept them safe. That is why IMO the apology was genuine and not just a way of playing Dean. Although he felt his actions were justified he regretted the emotional stress it would cause the brothers. 

And like I said in previous posts, the brothers have been in the same position themselves too many times to not realise where Cas was coming from. I'm sure they'll give him hell for what he did, but ultimately they're family and love each other. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Wayward Son

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

And like I said in previous posts, the brothers have been in the same position themselves too many times to not realise where Cas was coming from. I'm sure they'll give him hell for what he did, but ultimately they're family and love each other. 

My point is, what's "family" without trust? If they can't trust him, how much does it even matter that they love him? And vice versa.

Yeah, Cas has good intentions. But the road to Hell is paved with those!

This might be overly practical, but I'm thinking maybe it's better to do the right things for the wrong reasons, rather than to do the wrong things for the right ones lol

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

My point is, what's "family" without trust? If they can't trust him, how much does it even matter that they love him? And vice versa.

Yeah, Cas has good intentions. But the road to Hell is paved with those!

This might be overly practical, but I'm thinking maybe it's better to do the right things for the wrong reasons, rather than to do the wrong things for the right ones lol

I don't see where they will have necessarily lost trust in Cas over this incident. IMO, Cas stealing the Colt is small potatoes in their entire 8 years of friendship especially since he did it for what he believed were the right reasons.  I think Dean is likely more upset with Cas for going radio silent and going to Heaven without telling them than stealing the Colt.

Sam and Dean have done countless things to each other that are horrible betrayals of trust and even though they are blood relatives they had no reason to continue to trust each other. IMO they don't love each other because they trust each other. IMO they keeping trying to trust each other because they love each other. IMO they see Cas through that same filter.

[SueB]

Thinking on relationships, after just re-watching 12.2 "Stuck in the Middle (With You)", I was struck by a possible parallel between Crowley/Dean and Cas/Dean.

Specifically, in "Lucifer Rising" Dean withdraws his friendship with Cas when Cas initially refuses to help. He coldly says "We're done."  And the next time he sees Cas, Cas is disobeying Heaven to help Dean escape the Beautiful Room.  In 12.2, Crowley shows up and starts to natter on.  Dean coldly tells him to help or get out. And Crowley goes to bat for Team Free Will w/ Ramiel.  Further, Crowley breaks the Lance to save Cas.  That's a BIG DEAL.  That was an important weapon that he would likely want and yet he broke it.  And IMO, he didn't do it for Cas. He did it for Dean.  Or at best, Team Free Will.  

I just think, in both scenes, Dean's withdrawal of friendship triggers a fair significant moment of support from two important players.  I think that Dean knows, on some level, that HE matters to these guys.  And instinctively knows when to make a demand that causes them to take a risk for him.  Dean is always arguing, BTW, on behalf of something OTHER than himself (save the planet, save the Angel), but whether or not he knows it, I think his relationship with each of these characters (Cas and Crowley) is what drives their behavior.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

 Further, Crowley breaks the Lance to save Cas.  That's a BIG DEAL.  That was an important weapon that he would likely want and yet he broke it.  And IMO, he didn't do it for Cas. He did it for Dean.  Or at best, Team Free Will.

I thought Crowley did it for Dean at first too, but I no longer hold that opinion on subsequent re-watches. IMO, everything for Crowley is transactional IMO. But then I have little to no love for Crowley and he's the least trustworthy one of the bunch despite doing them favors. I think he LIKES Dean and is desperate for Dean to like him so maybe that's the influence over  Crowley. But IMO  it's not because Crowley cares about Dean, it's because Crowley eventually wants something from Dean.

Crowley knew Dean would be turned into a demon, and he wanted that so he could use Dean for his purposes, whether that's as a pretend friend or his muscle to rule Hell.  IMO whatever "fondness" or whatever he has for Dean definitely ended when he figured out he couldn't control Dean in s10. He put another angel's grace into Cas so that Cas would work to save Dean which kept demon!Dean from killing Crowley.  

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think he LIKES Dean and is desperate for Dean to like him so maybe that's the influence over  Crowley. But IMO  it's not because Crowley cares about Dean, it's because Crowley eventually wants something from Dean.

That's the fine line that the writers - and Mark - are always walking. Most of the time they get it right IMO. I really enjoy Crowley but I don't want him to be a good guy.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Further, Crowley breaks the Lance to save Cas.  That's a BIG DEAL.  That was an important weapon that he would likely want and yet he broke it.  And IMO, he didn't do it for Cas. He did it for Dean.  Or at best, Team Free Will.

IMO, everything Crowley does is for Crowley. I think he did it because he knows helping the Winchesters will only help him later. At the very least, he's proven himself useful; at most, they start feeling as though they can rely on or trust him.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I think he LIKES Dean and is desperate for Dean to like him so maybe that's the influence over  Crowley.

He used to. There were those scenes where he moped over their brotp pictures during Demon!Dean`s time but I think it was in one of the child!Amara episodes last Season that he said he was over it now. And that was pretty genuine. So I believe whatever there was, it is gone now. He will still help if it is in his self interest but there was a time he would have made an effort regardless. That is past.

[trxr4kids]

16 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I have been considering the times Dean and Castiel have argued this season and Dean has displayed negative feelings towards the Angel. In my opinion Castiel (and the narrative of their arguments) has never tried to belittle Dean's right to feel what he feels, not even in the most recent episode. I can't think of anything comparable to Sam's exasperated "Dean", or Mary's "I'm not just a mother" counter argument.

That's why I love Dean and Cas's friendship so much and always have*. Dean has always been able to be honest with Cas even when the honesty hurts, Cas has always been able (although not always willing) to be honest with Dean. They may get pissed at each other and fight, both verbally and physically but both are willing to acknowledge each others POV regardless of agreement with said POV without dismissing each others right to feel however they feel**. 

* I was briefly pissed at Cas for beating the crap outta Dean in season 5 and blaming Dean for his own choices because it added on to me seeing Sam and Bobby piling on the crap onto Dean that I felt was unjustified. At any rate he didn't make it a lifestyle choice so I'm fine with it.

** From Survival of the Fittest: DEAN
We can't leave it. You let these friggin' things in. So you don't get to make a sandwich. You don't get a damned cat. Nobody cares that you're broken, Cas. Clean up your mess!

I realize that dialogue can easily be interpreted as Dean dismissing Cas feelings of brokeness but I disagree and apparently so did Cas since he did in fact help clean up his mess and arguably was pushing Dean with his obvious avoidance behaviors to get him to that point. As always MMV.

[Wayward Son]

You know it amazes me that the show has a writer include a moment like this 

 

 

Where Isham compares what he considers to be his human weakness of loving Lily with Castiel's feelings about Dean. 

 

And then have figures from the show act utterly baffled by the idea that some fans consider Destiel to be a thing LOL 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think anyone questions that the Winchesters, specifically Dean, are Cas' weakness.  It's the idea that it must be romantic love or nothing that causes the disconnect, IMO.  Love between men should be encouraged and commended, and shouldn't need to be labeled.  The show has absolutely shown love between Castiel and Dean, but I personally have seen nothing to indicate that it's of a sexual nature.  The character of Dean Winchester has been written consistently to show that he's attracted to women, so having him suddenly profess a sexual desire for Cas would be completely out-of-character.  

I am all for having relationships of all persuasions represented, but I would much prefer to see a couple like Jesse and Cesar from The Chitters...two people obviously in love and devoted to each other as a couple, become recurring characters.  Having Cas and Dean fill that role would be nothing more than caving to one faction of the fandom, at the expense of the characters.

Edited August 6, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[DeeDee79]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think anyone questions that the Winchesters, specifically Dean, are Cas' weakness.  It's the idea that it must be romantic love or nothing that causes the disconnect, IMO.  Love between men should be encouraged and commended, and shouldn't need to be labeled.  The show has absolutely shown love between Castiel and Dean, but I personally have seen nothing to indicate that it's of a sexual nature.  The character of Dean Winchester has been written consistently to show that he's attracted to women, so having him suddenly profess a sexual desire for Cas would be completely out-of-character.  

I am all for having relationships of all persuasions represented, but I would much prefer to see a couple like Jesse and Cesar from The Chitters...two people obviously in love and devoted to each other as a couple, become recurring characters.  Having Cas and Dean fill that role would be nothing more than caving to one faction of the fandom, at the expense of the characters.

I completely agree. I don't knock anyone that ships Destiel if they interpret their interactions as romantic but personally I've never seen it that way.

[Wayward Son]

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 IMO, the show has absolutely shown love between Castiel and Dean, but I personally have seen nothing to indicate that it's of a sexual nature. 

 

 Having Cas and Dean fill that role would be nothing more than caving to one faction of the fandom, IMO, at the expense of the characters.

But the point I was making is that the show chose to create a parallel between Dean and Cas and a very specific situation. It wasn't a generalised thing. Isham specifically compared his love, which was sexual, to Cas' feelings for Dean. If they didn't want viewers to think of a connection between the two pairs then why do that? OR if they really wanted there to be a parallel then why not present it differently? Instead of making it a one sided sexual thing gone sour, why couldn't Isham and Lily have been friends / platonic and that bond somehow went sour? 

 

I'm actually not even a Destiel shipper, as I don't perceive Dean as having any feelings for Castiel. I personally could see Cas as having feelings for Dean, but one sided does not make a ship LOL. However, IMO if they're going to include such connections on the show then it's pretty stupid of people associated with the show to act mystified by the idea  that some fans have interpreted it as holding meaning. 

47 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Having Cas and Dean fill that role would be nothing more than caving to one faction of the fandom, IMO, at the expense of the characters.

I'm not going to focus on Dean. I'll leave that to more Dean centric viewers, if any feel inclined. 

 

But I personally think an exploration of Castiel's sexuality wouldn't be at the expense of his character. I'm talking in general terms rather than about Destiel specifically. 

 

1) IMO angels actually should be open sexually. They are "multi-dimensional waves of celestial intent". They should either have the potential to be attracted to all humans equally, or none at all! They wouldn't be driven by the same basic biological impulses as humans as they generally lack a physical body that is truly theirs. Castiel would be a current exception, as we know Jimmy soul is in heaven and the body he inhabits was a supernatural construction created by Guck.  

2) I have seen the argument that angels are driven by the sexual tendencies of their vessel. However, angels can be gender fluid. In fact Castiel himself was in a female vessel long before he came to use Jimmys form. This opens questions like; was he formerly into men but now he is into women? Does his connection to vessels leave a print on his personality? Or if he were to return in the form of a woman would he suddenly shift back to liking men? 

3) In comparison to characters like Sam and Dean, Castiel has really had little opportunity to explore his sexuality. He has had a few fleeting moments over a period of eight years. Off the top of my head he has physically slept with Amy who was possessed by the reaper, there was the strange situation with Daphne while he was without his memories, he was flirted with by Meg and then that debacle at the brothel. Considering the fact IRL there are middle aged men and women who come out as bi-sexual it's hardly a stretch for Castiel to find he is capable of romantic feelings for other men. 

4) At a meta level, while Jensen has been very clear he has a strong vision of Dean as a straight male. Misha seems much less certain and more open to the idea of exploring that side of Cas. 

 

To to be clear I'm not at all speculating they're going to go down the route of exploring Castiel's sexuality. I'm simply arguing against the notion it would "be at the characters expense" if they did. I think it could add much to the character if done right. Although, of course, the question is; would these current writers be capable of getting it right? Even if they were inclined to explore such a storyline. Sadly, Id have to say probably not considering their poor handling of him in the latter half of S12. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

Cas has been portrayed as mainly perplexed by human sexual relationships, but when they have chosen to go there with his character, they have shown him attracted to women.  I'm very bad with names, but in addition to those you pointed out, he was interested in his boss at the 7/11 or whatever that was, and he was attracted to Hanna.  But as an angel, I can see his sexuality being much more fluid...if angels have sexual impulses at all.

50 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

But the point I was making is that the show chose to create a parallel between Dean and Cas and a very specific situation. It wasn't a generalised thing. Isham specifically compared his love, which was sexual, to Cas' feelings for Dean.

I'd have to watch the scene again, but I don't remember it being that specific.  He was comparing his weakness/obsession for humans with Cas' weakness for humans, but I'm not sure the specific nature of that weakness was important in the comparison.  Cas absolutely has chosen Dean, Sam and Dean, TFW, etc., over and over again when faced with a choice.  From another angel's perspective, that's a failing on Cas' part.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'd have to watch the scene again, but I don't remember it being that specific.  He was comparing his weakness/obsession for humans with Cas' weakness for humans,

 Ishim was romantically obsessed/in love with Lily who did not return his "affections".  He said he loved her, romantically.  Ishim was angry and resentful that Lily rejected his overtures, so he lied to Cas and the other angels that her actual human daughter was a nephilim; a lie which he used to justify the child's murder, but the reality is he killed her daughter in front of her to punish Lily for rejecting him romantically.

That's juxtaposed with Cas being loved by Dean and Sam. Despite Dean and Cas bickering with each other, Dean rushed into the diner and behaved in a protective manner, getting right in Ishim's face and issuing a direct warning for him to not screw around with Cas.  Later, Ishim has nearly beaten Cas to death but rather than kill him, he is going to kill Dean in front of Cas, just like he killed Lily's daughter in front of her.  Dean made an angel banishing sigil to take out Ishim, but rather than risk killing Castiel, he risked being murdered by Ishim. IMO it was never about "helping Castiel",  it was jealousy and anger IMO.

Edited August 6, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's juxtaposed with Cas being loved by Dean and Sam. Despite Dean and Cas bickering with each other, Dean rushed into the diner and behaved in a protective manner, getting right in Ishim's face and issuing a direct warning for him to not screw around with Cas.  Later, Ishim has nearly beaten Cas to death but rather than kill him, he is going to kill Dean in front of Cas, just like he killed Lily's daughter in front of her.  Dean made an angel banishing sigil to take out Ishim, but rather than risk killing Castiel, he risked being murdered by Ishim. IMO it was never about "helping Castiel",  it was jealousy and anger IMO.

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to imply that Isham was in any way trying to help Cas, if that's what you thought.  I just meant that his obsession with Lily, and Cas' devotion to Dean didn't both need to be romantic in nature for the scene to still work.  

Edited August 6, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

IMO, everything about Ishim/Lily and Dean/Cas was framed as romantic which does not equal sexual in all cases in all situations.  I definitely think it was romantic framing IMO YMMV.

I also don't think it was intended to imply that Dean and Cas are in a sexual relationship. I don't think they are now nor have been in the past. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

But the point I was making is that the show chose to create a parallel between Dean and Cas and a very specific situation. It wasn't a generalised thing. Isham specifically compared his love, which was sexual, to Cas' feelings for Dean. If they didn't want viewers to think of a connection between the two pairs then why do that? OR if they really wanted there to be a parallel then why not present it differently? Instead of making it a one sided sexual thing gone sour, why couldn't Isham and Lily have been friends / platonic and that bond somehow went sour? 

The writer was Steve Yockey -- his other entry being "Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox".

The director was Thomas J. Wright, his other entries (per Superwiki):
7.15 Repo Man
8.04 Bitten
8.17 Goodbye Stranger
8.22 Clip Show
9.09 Holy Terror
9.18 Meta Fiction
9.23 Do You Believe in Miracles?
10.02 Reichenbach
10.22 The Prisoner
11.04 Baby
11.10 The Devil in the Details

 The three in bold being VERY much focused on the Dean/Cas bond.  

So, first let's talk writing.  That Dean is Cas' weakness has been said time and time again.  And I'm comfortable saying that Sam is as well.  But the "profound bond" is still strongest between Dean and Cas IMO.  But while I agree that there's a parallel, Dean LOVES Cas in at least a brotherly way.  Lily Sunders HATES Isham.  So, IMO Isham/Lily is a foil (the literary type) for Cas/Dean.  We see a parallel but it is in the differences that we get greater insight Cas and potentially Dean.

The "compare and contrast";
- Isham was a taker, Cas is a giver
- Isham was obsessed, Cas is devoted -- the difference here being that Cas can walk away and do other things
- Ishams existence was destroyed because of his feelings for Lily, Cas's feelings toward Dean (and Sam) have made him a better individual (per Cas)
- Isham would kill Lily rather than let others have her, Cas would die rather than let Dean be killed (and Dean would do the same for Cas)

I bet there's a lot more... my point is this: it's possible that the parallel was sexual in nature but I think Isham works better as a foil.  

Now let's talk directing.  Well Wright is a fan of the relationship in the way he shoots the two.  I don't see how else to view it.  Even in Holy Terror, the super-tight closeups were impressive.  So, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Wright put a more romantic spin on these two in his filming.  So.... if there is a more romantic spin by the director, and the producers "final cut" doesn't eliminate it ... is that the same level of culpability as putting the romantic spin in there in the first place (with the writing).  I'm going to say, they didn't feel strongly enough about it to order a different edit.  But I'm not sure that the producers are putting that spin INTO it so much as letting the interpretation be there if fans so choose.

Which brings me to "where creators stand on Destiel - romantic":
- Writers - they vary, some IMO were very much into it, others not so much.
- Directors - again, they vary
-Producers - Dabb seems to be okay with it, Singer doesn't see it as romantic
- Jensen** - doesn't see it as romantic
- Misha - knows what the company line is (not romantic), IMO, a man who would gladly wear a kale wedding dress (oh, come on, he's already worn the wedding dress, making it out of kale is right up his alley) clearly sees the fan interpretation but plays it as a unique relationship (uber intense but not pining).
- Crew - we have some hardcore Destiel fans there, I'm like 99% certain.  But not everyone.  Just some.  And I think they DO leave Easter Eggs for fans.  

But no, I don't think they'll ever go romantic Destiel. And while I TOTALLY support those who ship Destiel, I worry that some will be disappointed if it doesn't become endgame. 

**If I spent 12+ years playing a character and was told by a large number of fans that I've misinterpreted the character's orientation, I'm pretty sure I'd be upset by fan insistence.  I mean, it's his JOB.  And a different interpretation on a scene or two is no big.  But it's 8 years now.  So... I feel really bad for the guy.  I TOTALLY see why there's a Destiel fandom.  And I think it was played up by the writers for several years.  But... it's just (IMO) kinda hard on the actor to assert he's doing it wrong if he wants to show Dean has brotherly feelings towards Cas (vice romantic). I just think Jensen's definition of brotherly love is how he sees it -- I see how he is with Jared and he's frankly more affectionate there (and NO, I do not remotely TIN HAT) than Dean is with Cas.   

 

Bottom Line: I can honestly see the interpretation of a romantic Dean/Cas and why so many adore Destiel.  But I don't think it's endgame and I don't think the writers are continuing to queerbait like they did a few years ago.  They live and let live in terms of fan interpretation but I don't think they are stringing anyone along.  The Lily Sunders episode is an example where a parallel and directing choices could fuel a romantic interpretation but I also see it just as easily being the brotherly love interpretation as well (using Isham as a foil).  
 

Edited August 6, 2017 by SueB

[CluelessDrifter]

49 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm sorry...I didn't mean to imply that Isham was in any way trying to help Cas, if that's what you thought.  I just meant that his obsession with Lily, and Cas' devotion to Dean didn't both need to be romantic in nature for the scene to still work.  

I agree.  I can see why some people would see it in another way than I did and do, but I think that Isham was following his MO.  He punished Lily by taking away the thing she loved the most.  The parallel for me was Cas in Lily's role, as he was the one rejecting Isham, and Dean in Lily's daughter's role, not that I think that the connection between Cas and Dean is anywhere near father and son, but a familial one.  For me, if Isham was really planning to do what he'd done with Lily, then killing Sam is what he should have tried to do.

[catrox14]

LOL Astroglide the biggest Destiel shippers in the world.