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Supernatural Relationships: Blood Is Thicker Than Water


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You know,  the portrayal of Sam teaching Cas to hug is BS, because Cas has initiated hugs before and has been hugged by others.

In s6, Cas went to hug Sam but Sam wouldn't hug him back because he felt weird.

Cas hugged both Dean and Sam in 7.21

When Dean found Cas in Purgatory he gave him the most beautiful hug EVER. 

Cas hugged them both in King of the Damned and he hugged Gabriel.

 

So I call shenanigans on the idea that Sam taught Cas to hug.  SHENANIGANS

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Cas's tenderness level is always dialed up to eleven. He's also always giving the sad eyes. I can't take it, it just makes me so massively uncomfortable. But no accounting for taste.

 

Cas is a little much for me in general. He won me over quite a bit when he worked *so hard* as a cashier.

 

I loved that Cas threw himself into his job at the Gas 'n' Sip and defended its dignity to Dean. He just sees so much WORTH and VALUE in people. And he was so humbled and grateful to the homeless people who helped him out. It's really hard to hate someone like that.

 

I think what gets me is that, for some reason, the 40 year old Misha can manage to look like an adorably abashed little boy. He's got the big blue eyes that he can use to unfair advantage. He's just so damned EARNEST and he cares so fucking much about humanity in general, and Dean in particular. He looks at Dean with so much caring and affection. I'm glad that Metatron called him on it and I'm glad that Dean just recently acknowledged that Cas loves him. Doesn't matter whether you want to claim it's romantic or familial, it is very, very canon that Cas loves Dean. And Misha is disturbingly good at showing that with just a look, IMO.

 

It makes me laugh that every fucking creature in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory knows full well how close Dean and Cas are. It's the universal constant apparently. :)

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And you know, I think Dean acknowledging that Cas loves him, is in a way him acknowledging that he loves Cas too. I mean twice Dean has said that he needed Cas which is code for Dean saying he loves someone. 

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(edited)

And you know, I think Dean acknowledging that Cas loves him, is in a way him acknowledging that he loves Cas too. I mean twice Dean has said that he needed Cas which is code for Dean saying he loves someone. 

 

Pretty sure it's been said more than twice now. He said it in Purgatory, he said it in a deleted scene after Naomi taunted Dean (though I get that deleted scenes don't technically count), he said it in the hospital chapel pre-Gadreel, he said it in the crypt...I feel like there may have been other instances, but I can't remember.

 

Even so, Dean has referred to Cas as "like a brother" (early on) and then the less fraternal "family", so I think those classifications implied even back then that Dean loved Cas. Dean gets attached to people really quickly (Charlie, Kevin...)  :)

 

I also really like how much Dean wanted Cas to stay with them at the bunker. In the S9 premiere, he told Cas to get his ass there pronto; he was thrilled to have Cas there with them and then devastated when Gadreel told him that Cas had to go; later Dean told Sam that no one wanted Cas to be at the bunker more than Dean.

 

I really think that if Dean could have Sam, Charlie, Kevin and Cas with him, safe and healthy, at the bunker, he'd be a happy man.

 

It's always bothered me when I read people dismiss Cas and Dean's friendship as Dean only wanting Cas around because he is useful to him and Sam due to his angel mojo. When Cas was a 'useless' human, Dean busted his ass to find him and make sure he was safe. He expected Cas to stay with them at the bunker. No matter how many times I watch the scene of Dean reacting to Cas' stabbing by April, I still get choked up because Jensen made Dean look and sound so devastated. That simple, broken cry of "Cas!" tore my heart out. Dean also wanted to hunt and hang out with Cas later in S9 even though Cas blatantly reminded Dean that he was human and thus had no powers. Dean's "...yeah...so?" was a balm to my soul. :D

Edited by NoWillToResist
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I never post, I've been a chronic lurker since twop, but I had to say something here.

I am so pleased to see others who appreciate the friendship between Dean and Cas *as a friendship*.

Journeying too far into the bowels of the fandom had convinced me that the enjoyment of the platonic was no longer possible.

I hope this little post didn't break any rules, and I apologize for the interruption. Do carry on.

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I ship and I ship hard any number of combinations that suit my fancy. That doesn't mean I think or expect or will be disappointed if they never happen.  I'm a shameless shipper.

 

Yeah, I think that's the key. You can enjoy whatever you want to enjoy but once you start to expect certain things to happen in the narrative? Down that path lies disappointment.

 

All I know is that whatever it is that Dean and Cas are, I love it and have missed it terribly. :)

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I hope this little post didn't break any rules, and I apologize for the interruption. Do carry on.

The fundamental rule (as stated by this site) is don't be a dick. You are fine. And IA it's nice to enjoy the friendship.

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Well, for the record I do not ship Wincest like EVER. And I don't really think Destiel is blasphemous considering Cas has been human;). But I don't really ship it per se but I can certainly see how it exists.

I tend to ship Dean with a lot of characters not named Sam, Crowley, John, Mary, Adam, Charlie, Abbadon, Alistair, Ruby or Meg.

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I'm not a shipper in general--not that there's anything wrong with that--I just prefer to follow the story as it unfolds rather than put my own expectations on it. Less heartbreak that way. I don't think there's anything blasphemous about Cass and Dean being a couple, but I know the show's never gonna go there. Probably for the best anyway, they'd probably screw it up and then have to kill Cass stupidly to fix it, which would make me sad. I too wish Cass could get brought back into the fold. I just think the show works better when friends are friendly and working together towards a common goal.

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I think of Cas and Dean as each other's "person" in whatever way that means.

 

Yes. I love that description. Too bad "soul-mate" has been so badly used and abused in the past. I think it would work wonderfully with them.

 

I don't think there's anything blasphemous about Cass and Dean being a couple,

 

Well, I think there's a contingent that wouldn't support a human/angel hook-up (weren't the nephilim reviled? Not that it would matter with M/M action :) ). It was only made more forbidden when Dean get all demonic, though I kind of perversely enjoyed the epic potential of that. :D

 

But I agree, I would rather the show keep things as they are (I don't trust TPTB to be able to successfully include a romantic relationship into their narrative). I'm happy with my non-show wanderings into the world of Destiel. I merely want Cas with the boys as he had been in the early days...the three of them working together towards a common goal or against a common enemy. Keeping them split up annoys me no end. :(

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This has to be my absolute favourite Team Free Will (Dean/Sam/Cas) scene that doesn't involve all three of them :D

Sams awkward "Listen, um... I know I came down on the side of wanting Cass to deal with Lucifer, so...." 

The awkward attempts to convince themselves not to rescue Cas 

And then the ultimate feck it let's bring him home! <33333

Edited by Wayward Son
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Honestly. I love that scene. IMO, Dean is saying 'Idiot' with so much fondness, I can barely stand it. Like Dean clearly doesn't think Cas IS as idiot. Kind of like when MoC!Dean said Cas was "Weird, dorky little guy" with such fondness.

I love their relationship so much. 

Edited by catrox14
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5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Honestly. I love that scene. IMO, Dean is saying 'Idiot' with so much fondness, I can barely stand it. Like Dean clearly doesn't think Cas IS as idiot. Kind of like when Dean said Cas was "Little, nerdy guy" with such fondness.

I love their relationship so much. 

Oh yeah I totally agree that it was a term of endearment rather than an insult! Are there fans who think otherwise? O.o

It's such a wonderful representation of how much he matters to the Winchester's. I also love the use of the word "home". Again it's a sign that Cas is their family. 

Sorry I have a lot of feels today for some reason! 

Edited by Wayward Son
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3 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

A phrase that describes Sam Winchester in regards to his relationship with his family: MIDDLE-CHILD SYNDROME. 

Haha that made me laugh! But definitely quite true of this season hehe

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26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Haha that made me laugh! But definitely quite true of this season hehe

No, but it's true. Technically, if you include Adam in the Winchester family, Sam is actually the middle child. I've always felt that Sam has way more middle child traits than youngest child traits. His relationship with Dean and the rest of his family screams middle child syndrome to me. Plus, there's always the fact that Sam is stuck in the middle. This series should be renamed "Sam In The Middle".

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10 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

No, but it's true. Technically, if you include Adam in the Winchester family, Sam is actually the middle child. I've always felt that Sam has way more middle child traits than youngest child traits. His relationship with Dean and the rest of his family screams middle child syndrome to me. Plus, there's always the fact that Sam is stuck in the middle. This series should be renamed "Sam In The Middle".

Oh yeah, Sam reminds me so much of my middle sister, it's scary at times.

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1 hour ago, sugarbabex23 said:

A phrase that describes Sam Winchester in regards to his relationship with his family: MIDDLE-CHILD SYNDROME. 

Would he really get the middle child syndrome? I mean Adam was around for literally one week so I don't think that would cause Sam to fall into that space. 

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16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, Sam reminds me so much of my middle sister, it's scary at times.

Sam has all the classic middle child traits: either the peacemaker or rebellious, the scapegoat of the family, tends to be a troubled or problemed child, runs way from home a lot, never feels like they belong in the family or have any role of importance, tends to be the unfavourite of the family (either they are ignored or mistreated by their parents and siblings), etc. I mean, I really don't get how people think that Sam has youngest child qualities when he clearly doesnt. His relationships with both John and Dean have been tumultuous and his relationship with Mary has been on existent for the majority of his life. Plus, Sam is also sort of anti social and doesn't make the effort to make solid bonds because they don't want to take sides, another common middle child trait. They also tend to play the role of mediator, peacemaker, or diplomat. In other words, they are afraid of disappointing people and are people pleasers. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Would he really get the middle child syndrome? I mean Adam was around for literally one week so I don't think that would cause Sam to fall into that space. 

It has to do with birth order to me. Sam has never come off as having the youngest child traits, especially when it comes to his relationships and his family role.

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Would he really get the middle child syndrome? I mean Adam was around for literally one week so I don't think that would cause Sam to fall into that space. 

Yeah, I`m not seeing that either. When he grew up, he was the youngest, the smallest and by nature of that the one thought to be most vulnerable and therefore most protected. There was noone smaller than him to take attention away. He was also the squeaky wheel which meant lots of attention from John. Not exactly positive and not the one Sam likely wanted but he wasn`t ignored. And he was definitely thought of as important. Clearly to Dean but also IMO to Sam. Heck, a Zanna sought him out to help him.

Dean was a traumatized child after his mother`s death but apparently no Zanna made an effort. Why? Would he not have been receptive? Did he not fill any criteria necessary?    

Equally, I think while Adam was technically a youngest sibling, he grew up as an only child. Just as Sam grew up as a youngest child and Dean as the oldest child. That can`t change because of stuff they found out in adulthood.

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I always thought it was funny that many places (fanfic in particular) referred to Dean as the "Middle Winchester." He always was the peacemaker, stuck in the middle between John and the rebellious Sam. 

6 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

Plus, Sam is also sort of anti social and doesn't make the effort to make solid bonds because they don't want to take sides, another common middle child trait. They also tend to play the role of mediator, peacemaker, or diplomat. In other words, they are afraid of disappointing people and are people pleasers. 

This sounds more like Dean than Sam to me, at least in the family dynamics.  Sam has always had definite opinions and makes his side clear!  

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12 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

Sam has all the classic middle child traits: either the peacemaker or rebellious, the scapegoat of the family, tends to be a troubled or problemed child, runs way from home a lot, never feels like they belong in the family or have any role of importance, tends to be the unfavourite of the family (either they are ignored or mistreated by their parents and siblings), etc. I mean, I really don't get how people think that Sam has youngest child qualities when he clearly doesnt. His relationships with both John and Dean have been tumultuous and his relationship with Mary has been on existent for the majority of his life. Plus, Sam is also sort of anti social and doesn't make the effort to make solid bonds because they don't want to take sides, another common middle child trait. They also tend to play the role of mediator, peacemaker, or diplomat. In other words, they are afraid of disappointing people and are people pleasers. 

It has to do with birth order to me. Sam has never come off as having the youngest child traits, especially when it comes to his relationships and his family role.

Interesting.

Sam took his own side in his younger life. It's only now in his later years that he's playing peacemaker.

I don't see Sam (nor Dean) as anti-social which is weird given their weird life.

Sam had friends in college. He had two live in girlfriends and he seems to have no hooking up with any woman he wants for the most par.t. He seems to get along with complete strangers. He didn't seem to be a shy teenager in After School Special. He might not want to have another intimate romantic relationship given his life.  That doesn't seem particularly anti-social to me.

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean was a traumatized child after his mother`s death but apparently no Zanna made an effort. Why? Would he not have been receptive? Did he not fill any criteria necessary?   

Well, now I'm really sad. That never even occurred to me. That's a really interesting thing to think about.

Edited by catrox14
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I wouldn't go as far as to say Sam is anti-social, but I definitely think Sam is much shyer and more of an introvert than Dean. When I say he is shy I don't mean he's incapable of socialising with others but simply that he is rather withdrawn. In regards to Stanford he has spoken of not feeling as though he truly belonged. I also think that Sam's withdraw nature is shown in the difference between how he and Dean interact with others throughout the show. While Dean is quick to grow close to others and accept them as a part of their extended family it usually takes Sam much longer to reach the same level of acceptance. 

Thats why IMO Dean seems to be the one generally portrayed as closest to their friends over the years. 

I also want to assure everyone that I'm not posting this in the "bitch" vs "jerk" sense. I don't think either brothers approach to relationship is wrong, or that it is poor writing in the writers part to make the distinction in their  methods of relating to others. 

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42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, Sam reminds me so much of my middle sister, it's scary at times.

Isn't overachiever one of the characteristics?  That's definitely my sister. 

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26 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Isn't overachiever one of the characteristics?  That's definitely my sister. 

Yes, overachiever and overly ambitious can be a middle child trait.

 

43 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, I`m not seeing that either. When he grew up, he was the youngest, the smallest and by nature of that the one thought to be most vulnerable and therefore most protected. There was noone smaller than him to take attention away. He was also the squeaky wheel which meant lots of attention from John. Not exactly positive and not the one Sam likely wanted but he wasn`t ignored. And he was definitely thought of as important. Clearly to Dean but also IMO to Sam. Heck, a Zanna sought him out to help him.

Dean was a traumatized child after his mother`s death but apparently no Zanna made an effort. Why? Would he not have been receptive? Did he not fill any criteria necessary?    

Equally, I think while Adam was technically a youngest sibling, he grew up as an only child. Just as Sam grew up as a youngest child and Dean as the oldest child. That can`t change because of stuff they found out in adulthood.

That's interesting that you say that because I have always had the opposite perspective on Sam. I have always felt that John favoured Dean over Sam and watching the series back, my opinion on that has never changed. Sam was the scapegoat of the family, he was constantly picked on. If he did get attention, it was normally negative attention. THE YOUNGEST of the family is generally favoured, pampered and spoiled and Sam, in my opinion, is none of the above.

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I'm the youngest.  I was the peacemaker and the rebel. I was the one that didn't feel quite like I fit with my family. The youngest is most certainly NOT always pampered, or spoiled or favored. The youngest is often the one who gets nothing new, gets all the hand me downs, gets saddled with the sins of the older siblings. My point is that birth order often means NOTHING in family behavior.

I think in the case of the Winchesters their lives are so messed up, that nothing that is typical. LOL

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TBH, I think most people, no matter what place in birth order feel like they're the ones who doesn't fit in the family and/or are not the favored one. I'd say my sisters (and brother) all believed we each were the outsider in the family. Although, in my case, I'm sure I'm completely right. ;)

1 hour ago, sugarbabex23 said:

Sam has all the classic middle child traits: either the peacemaker or rebellious, the scapegoat of the family, tends to be a troubled or problemed child, runs way from home a lot, never feels like they belong in the family or have any role of importance, tends to be the unfavourite of the family (either they are ignored or mistreated by their parents and siblings), etc. I mean, I really don't get how people think that Sam has youngest child qualities when he clearly doesnt. His relationships with both John and Dean have been tumultuous and his relationship with Mary has been on existent for the majority of his life. Plus, Sam is also sort of anti social and doesn't make the effort to make solid bonds because they don't want to take sides, another common middle child trait. They also tend to play the role of mediator, peacemaker, or diplomat. In other words, they are afraid of disappointing people and are people pleasers.

While my sister would try to get in the middle of arguments between my older sister and I and tell us both what idiots we were being, she was very introverted when it came to herself. When she'd get mad at you for something, she'd give you the silent treatment and/or go hide in her room only to emerge a couple days later and it was all supposed to be over and forgotten. She's very passive aggressive in that way and can be very annoying. 

Also, She'll be totally rational and calm on the outside, but boiling underneath. It can be even more infuriating to have a disagreement with her because she'll stand there all calm and collected and keep pointing out how you're the irrational one. Which, of course, only makes me want to strangle her.

And, she's very secretive at times too. Not just about herself, but activities and such. Which annoys the shit out of me when I'm trying to do something with her. Most the time I just go along and let her tell me when she's ready to let me know, but I have to constantly refrain from pointing out how counterproductive that is.

I'm not sure I'd call her anti-social though. She has lots of friends and likes getting out and being social, but she only lets a few of those friends actually get close enough to actually know her. I'm actually probably the most anti-social of all my siblings. I'd be a happy hermit if I didn't have to go to work and support myself.

I love her, but she's can be very self-centered. It's better now that she has kids, but when we were younger she rarely thought about how what she was doing would affect anyone else. If we were given a list of chores to do and she didn't like any of the chores, she'd just go do some chore she would rather do but wasn't on the list. Which left my other siblings and I to do her chores so the list got done. She never thought there was anything wrong with that because in her mind she was doing something and never considered it made more work for us.

However, I don't think any of it makes her a bad person. It's just who she is and I love her regardless. I wouldn't want her to change even if she does annoy the shit out of me from time to time. I annoy the shit out of her from time to time, so it's only fair, right?

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

Isn't overachiever one of the characteristics?  That's definitely my sister. 

Oh yeah, she always had a plan and made sure the plan was completed. She's also very competitive compared to me. I'm happy just doing my best work, she's only happy when her work is the best of everyone around her. And she's not just overachiever, but also things just come easy to her and she's not very understanding to people who it doesn't come so easy.

38 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

I have always felt that John favoured Dean over Sam

I don't know that I'd say John favored Dean over Sam. Dean made sure not to make a fuss or get noticed by John. Whereas Sam really wanted John to notice him. However, I don't think John really noticed either of them. He was too much in his own head to see either of them, IMO.

38 minutes ago, sugarbabex23 said:

THE YOUNGEST of the family is generally favoured, pampered and spoiled

I, as a youngest sibling, disagree with that!! I know my siblings would agree with you, but I actully don't think my mom treated us any differently other than we had different personalities. I think that's all perspective, myself. From my sister's perspective they had to share everything with me, but from my perspective I never got anything of my own. And, I rarely got to do anything I wanted to do, I was always expected to go along with them and do whatever they wanted to do. But from their perspective they always had to take me along to whatever they were doing.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm the youngest.  I was the peacemaker and the rebel. I was the one that didn't feel quite like I fit with my family. The youngest is most certainly NOT always pampered, or spoiled or favored. The youngest is often the one who gets nothing new, gets all the hand me downs, gets saddled with the sins of the older siblings. My point is that birth order often means NOTHING in family behavior.

I think in the case of the Winchesters their lives are so messed up, that nothing that is typical. LOL

 

Haha. That may be true. But I'm speaking as someone who's a middle child so obviously my experiences may be different than yours. 

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 I have always felt that John favoured Dean over Sam and watching the series back, my opinion on that has never changed. 

I never even felt remotely that Dean was favoured. He was the one who kept that family unit going by swallowing down his wants. Otherwise, it would have been a three-way shouting match and they would have disintegrated. When Azazel in the Season 1 Finale taunted Dean about his place in the family, I thought that taunt was so effective not because a bad guy was lying and just targeting the hero`s weakness but because the bad guy was telling the truth and targetting the weakness.

Was Sam favoured by John?  The show had Bobby spout once that Dean was his favourite and another time that he always had been hard on Sam. I found the second statement downright ludicrous and the first iffy. If those are the standards of favouritism, then I guess you could say Sam was John`s favourite. Apparently that doesn`t need to lend itself to favourable treatment which would be one of my criterias for being a favourite.

So personally, I don`t think Sam was favoured by John, more that Sam was more important and more "present" for John. Dean would function in the background and thus be easier ignored as a person and more relied upon like a, frankly, tool. Which created the mindsets I still see in both characters even to this day. 

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2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He was the one who kept that family unit going by swallowing down his wants.

I personally don't see this being as prevalent as many do. Yes, Dean had to watch Sam, but as an older sister myself, that's not unusual. I watched my sister growing up, got in trouble if she did something wrong (because I was older and should've known better), and did most if not all of the housework chores. That was my "job" as the older sister. And as I've said previously, I could never have left my sister to her own devices the way that Dean was able to leave Sam by himself... my sister might've been dead 10 times over if that were the case. I'll admit though that my sister and I were much closer in age, so I was watching her at a much younger age than Dean was watching Sam - meaning she got up to a lot more since she was younger.

But I didn't see Dean giving up his wants all the time. Considering that one of Dean's wants was a "peaceful" family, playing "peacemaker," in my opinion was Dean expressing his wants to/on the family. Dean didn't have to play peacemaker. No one made Dean do so that we know of. He could've walked away and let John and Sam work it out on their own, especially since when Sam and John started butting heads, Dean was likely at least a teenager. The family would've kept on going. It may not have been exactly the family that Dean wanted, but it would've still been a family.  If Sam was supposedly more important and present for John, it wasn't like John was going to hurt Sam or anything, so Dean playing "peacemaker" was - in a way - what Dean wanted to do. He was being conciliatory to get what he wanted - a "peaceful" family. So for me, if Dean made compromises to get that family unit that he wanted, and if he put some of his other wants aside to achieve that, that means that Dean wanted the peace more than he wanted anything else.

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean was a traumatized child after his mother`s death but apparently no Zanna made an effort. Why? Would he not have been receptive? Did he not fill any criteria necessary?

When Dean lost his mother, he still had John. John didn't go from grieving husband to hunter leaving his kids to go after monsters and demons overnight. When Mary was killed, I'm guessing John was likely pretty supportive of Dean for a while then, until he started going off the deep end. If we say it took John about a year maybe to get to hunter stage - and I would guess it wasn't that quick myself -  it's likely Dean still wasn't left alone until maybe seven or so? (I'm guessing). And Sam was with him, so while it sucked, Dean wasn't by himself. If Dean knew about monsters by the time he was that age or 8 - which is when Sam found out - unlike Sam, I don't think Dean would've thought - "ooh, imaginary friend, yay!" For me, Dean would've thought "Oh, monster!" And tried to kill a Zanna. Or at least told John - who would've tried to kill the Zanna. Also in my opinion, Dean felt like he "belonged" when he was younger - he and John shared the secret long before Sam found out. Sully showed up, because Sam didn't feel like he belonged - he felt like an outsider.

So my opinion is that during the time Dean might've needed a Zanna, he still felt that he had John, and when/if he didn't feel so secure in that regard anymore, he would've been too old for a Zanna - and maybe might've tried to kill one. Just my opinion on that though, I understand.

Edited by AwesomO4000
For brevity - relatively.
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I don't agree that the family wouldn't have kept going if Dean hadn't "kept the peace." It may not have been exactly the family that Dean wanted, but it would've still been a family. 

I think they would have imploded in no time flat. So disagree on this.

Also no, noone held a gun to Dean`s head but that doesn`t mean it was a wonderful cakewalk for him with some minor common place responsibilities on the side that he really wanted to have after all. John was too much focused on other things to truly be there for his sons. And too stubborn to begin to relate to Sam on a different level than we saw him in Season 1.

When I say Dean swallowed things down, I think of scenes like the phone call in Scarecrow. John calls, Sam answers the phone and within seconds they are at it. At the time Dean gets the phone, all we see from him as snapping to attention and going "yessir". Apparently, he didn`t get a greeting or any kind of real talk anymore since John was already riled up at that point and just wanted a subordinate. Do I believe Dean didn`t want a personal acknowledgment as well? No. Do I believe he enjoyed doing what he did there? Nope.

I was so happy in the scene where John was being a dick again with the "how come you didn`t call me immediately about your brother`s visions" that Dean didn`t swallow down what he wanted to say and instead actually said it, namely defending himself and calling John out. I`ve never thought that Dean was actually so pathetic as to not see that John could be and was a dick often and what he, Dean, did in response to placate him. That he didn`t talk back or sass him or anything like that.     

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So my opinion is that during the time Dean might've needed a Zanna, he still felt that he had John

I think he realized pretty quickly that he didn`t have John anymore, not in a way that would allow him to lean on him. He seemed to have switched to becoming the emotiona crutch John leaned on soon enough.

IMO the Zanna`s are just douchey enough to simply ignore certain kids who would need them.  

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On 3/20/2017 at 7:17 PM, sugarbabex23 said:

Yes, overachiever and overly ambitious can be a middle child trait.

I always thought overachiever was a classic oldest child trait.  And offer up my oldest brother (straight A's throughout college and med school) as proof.  

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THE YOUNGEST of the family is generally favoured, pampered and spoiled and Sam, in my opinion, is none of the above.

Bwahahahaha!  As others have noted, The Youngest Theory doesn't always hold true.   (For that matter, Middle Child Syndrome is also a myth.)

And I'm sure there are some who would disagree that Sam was not spoiled and pampered (particularly by Dean) as a child.  So there's that.  

Of course, birth order is not the only thing that affects personality.  So even though I do not think Sam acts spoiled now as an adult, I'm not sure it has anything to do with his birth order versus his messed up childhood in general, as @catrox14 noted.

On 3/20/2017 at 7:38 PM, catrox14 said:

I'm the youngest.  I was the peacemaker and the rebel. I was the one that didn't feel quite like I fit with my family. The youngest is most certainly NOT always pampered, or spoiled or favored. The youngest is often the one who gets nothing new, gets all the hand me downs, gets saddled with the sins of the older siblings. My point is that birth order often means NOTHING in family behavior.

So true on the hand me downs.  I'm also the youngest and the rebel.  Can't say I was the peacemaker.  ;)  I used to get blamed for picking fights with my oldest (larger!) brother.  (No.  I wasn't that stupid.  But I never backed down from a fight either.)  Was I spoiled?  I don't think so, but my older (middle) sister used to think so, because I "got away" with more than she did.  Then I reminded her that 1. by the time I was a teenager, mom and dad had been through 3 others, including my middle brother (younger than sis) who was a real troublemaker.  So, relative to him, I was a cakewalk.  And they were older and tired.  Sis also just didn't rock the boat, or even try.  And 2. I watched what didn't work for them and learned what not to do.  I wasn't spoiled so much as shrewd.  :)

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3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

He could've walked away and let John and Sam work it out on their own, especially since when Sam and John started butting heads, Dean was likely at least a teenager. The family would've kept on going. It may not have been exactly the family that Dean wanted, but it would've still been a family.

I don't think John and Sam would have worked anything out on their own, though. They seemed to have had basically no relationship. I think that was part of the point of A Very Supernatural Christmas -- in that episode, I think Sam gave up on his dad. He learned the truth about monsters AND the truth about his family.

Plus, John was gone a lot and when he was around, they apparently were super focused on the hunting stuff. So it's not like there would have been a lot of opportunity for John and Sam to bond (unless they could bond over hunting, which Sam pretty clearly wasn't that down for).

But anyway, I think that John probably needed somebody running interference between him and EVERYBODY, because he really didn't seem like he could get along with people well. I mean, the (lethal) fall out with Mr Carvell springs to mind. John was also running his sons ragged all through S1 and even came out and apologized for Dean for IMO basically being a PITA, too. Even in Dean's heaven flashback, Dean was complaining about running interference between Mary and John. So I can see Dean feeling the burden of running interference for John in general (not just between him and Sam).

I don't think that Dean felt burdened by Sam, though. I think Sam and John butting heads made him upset because it made THEM upset, not because he felt a duty or even external pressure to make their relationship OK.

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

When Mary was killed, I'm guessing John was likely pretty supportive of Dean for a while then, until he started going off the deep end.

I disagree. I think hunting probably SAVED John. He sure clung to it like it was a lifeline.

On 3/20/2017 at 7:38 PM, catrox14 said:

The youngest is most certainly NOT always pampered, or spoiled or favored.

I'm an only child, AND my grandma's only grandchild. My grandma spoiled me rotten. So all the rivalry and favoritism stuff goes right over my head ;)

Something I think is interesting about the Winchesters is that their life didn't seem family-oriented at all. It seems like John was going to do what he needed to do, and the kids were meant to figure out how to make that work. Also, it seemed like John was really only interested in them in relation to himself. Whatever else they got up to was on them, as long as they did what he needed them to. That's pretty similar to my family. For us, it's because my parents are pretty Old World, and have this artsy-fartsy beatnik kind of thing going on (so not very into structure or rules or routines. Way more into making art, going to drum circles, sitting on the porch smoking and talking politics etc), and they just aren't kid-focused. Hence having only one child. Even that was a compromise, because they didn't want any kids for a long time. I don't know why the Winchester family was like that, though! It's standing out lately because it seems like it's maybe not just John, but Mary might have had the same kind of outlook, too.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

IMO the Zanna`s are just douchey enough to simply ignore certain kids who would need them.  

The Zannas are probably a finite resource. There aren't necessarily enough to go around. Maybe there wasn't one available when Dean was the right age.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think he realized pretty quickly that he didn`t have John anymore, not in a way that would allow him to lean on him. He seemed to have switched to becoming the emotiona crutch John leaned on soon enough.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think Dean was pretty clearly overcompensating in some of those flashbacks. I mean again to bring up A Very Supernatural Xmas, but *Dean* knew that he was lying to Sam and that John wasn't going to make it back with Xmas gifts. I think he needed to play pretend for his own reasons (feeling safe, reassuring himself that John would be OK and would come back, etc). But I think he was pretty conscious of it being lies and pretend.

Or think of the pilot when Dean got pissed off at Sam for mentioning their mom not coming back. Sam was just telling the flat truth. IMO Dean got upset because he didn't like Sam refusing to play along. For his own reasons, not because either he or Sam were actually in the dark about the truth.

IMO Dean is an escapist. He likes movies, pop culture, music, and he kept making up these sort of overly romanticized narratives about his family members and just his family in general. IMO that's what that whole corny "hero" thing in After School Special was about. Needing to plaster over reality with a prettier picture.

I can't really see him leaning on John or maybe anyone, because IMO he would rather escape into some kind of narrative or mission or fantasy in order to find strength.

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I always thought Dean was too "woke" to the Supernatural to actually see a Zanna and not take out a weapon.  If I was a Zanna, I could see not wanting to traumatize the kid any further.  

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30 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO Dean got upset because he didn't like Sam refusing to play along. For his own reasons, not because either he or Sam were actually in the dark about the truth.

Dean got upset because Sam was unemotional about it. He literally said "Don't talk about her that way".  I guess I don't understand how that is Dean hiding the truth.  He was still pretty raw about her death all those years later. He just doesn't want to talk about it.

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7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I always thought Dean was too "woke" to the Supernatural to actually see a Zanna and not take out a weapon.  If I was a Zanna, I could see not wanting to traumatize the kid any further.  

The Zanna themselves were pretty childlike, though, too.

I don't think that they would stay away because a kid might be dangerous to them. I don't think they're suspicious or even realistic in that way.

That said, it doesn't bother me that every qualified kid isn't automatically befriended by a Zanna. That seems normal. There must be billions of qualified kids and how many Zanna could there be? Some kids are going to get lucky, but most aren't. I see it as luck of the draw rather than rejection but YMMV.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean got upset because Sam was unemotional about it. He literally said "Don't talk about her that way".  I guess I don't understand how that is Dean hiding the truth.  He was still pretty raw about her death all those years later. He just doesn't want to talk about it.

Yeah exactly, he couldn't even stand to hear the words that she's dead and not coming back, despite both of them knowing it was a flat fact. There didn't seem to be any difference to him between Sam speaking the truth and Dean getting his nose rubbed in it. Fair enough, but that already points to someone who is going to prefer to come at the truth pretty sideways. Hence escapism IMO. Drinking, movies/music, mythologizing the family -- IMO that's all of a piece.

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18 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I disagree. I think hunting probably SAVED John. He sure clung to it like it was a lifeline.

Oh, I agree. I just meant that John didn't become a hunter overnight. He didn't even know what had happened at first. If I remember the story from that guy - I can't remember the episode or the specifics now... I think it was a coworker? - he said that at first John still came into work, but he eventually got paranoid and started coming in less. That was probably after he went to see Missouri. And then he had to learn all of the lore and what to do, and then on the early hunts, he likely dropped Sam and Dean off with Caleb or someone. My main point was that Dean wasn't alone at first, and he likely busied himself taking care of Sam, so any depression he might've had, he likely diverted into that. When Dean and John went hunting without Sam, Sam didn't have anyone to divert that loneliness to by himself in the hotel, so Zanna came to help.

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

I always thought Dean was too "woke" to the Supernatural to actually see a Zanna and not take out a weapon.  If I was a Zanna, I could see not wanting to traumatize the kid any further.  

And that, too. As I said above, Dean's brain would've likely gone to "monster!" more than anything else.

37 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO Dean is an escapist. He likes movies, pop culture, music, and he kept making up these sort of overly romanticized narratives about his family members and just his family in general. IMO that's what that whole corny "hero" thing in After School Special was about. Needing to plaster over reality with a prettier picture.

I can't really see him leaning on John or maybe anyone, because IMO he would rather escape into some kind of narrative or mission or fantasy in order to find strength.

Interesting take on this.

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Do I believe Dean didn`t want a personal acknowledgment as well? No. Do I believe he enjoyed doing what he did there? Nope.

I was so happy in the scene where John was being a dick again with the "how come you didn`t call me immediately about your brother`s visions" that Dean didn`t swallow down what he wanted to say and instead actually said it, namely defending himself and calling John out. I`ve never thought that Dean was actually so pathetic as to not see that John could be and was a dick often and what he, Dean, did in response to placate him. That he didn`t talk back or sass him or anything like that.

Oh I agree that he likely didn't enjoy it, but the "yes sir" could also be seen as a means to an end... to please John, not rock the boat, keep the peace. But as your second example here shows, Dean could call John out - and the world didn't end. It might've been a little uncomfortable at first, but John got over it. Now that might not always have been the case, and sometimes John might've gotten angry instead, but my point is it was an option for Dean. He didn't always have to capitulate if he didn't want to, but he would've had to deal with some consequences - and maybe some nasty ones, too - before he might've made progress... and for Dean, it wasn't worth it. He wanted family peace more, so by compromising, Dean was going for what he wanted more - his "happy" family.

But as Sam later said in "Dark Side of the Moon," Sam didn't look at family the same way that Dean did. For Sam, playing along with John all the time to keep the peace - which from what we found out later with Ellen's husband, might not have been without risk in itself sometimes - was not worth it. Sam didn't want family peace more than he wanted his opinion to be heard.

And neither of those points of view is right or wrong - they are just different.

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My main point was that Dean wasn't alone at first, and he likely busied himself taking care of Sam, so any depression he might've had, he likely diverted into that. When Dean and John went hunting without Sam, Sam didn't have anyone to divert that loneliness to by himself in the hotel, so Zanna came to help.

I know the real reason is because the writers really just introduced the concept last Season and it was only meant for one Sam-episode so they never thought of any further implications but I don`t think Dean had, for whatever reasons, a more cushy deal as a kid that would explain it in show-canon. 

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He didn't always have to capitulate if he didn't want to, but he would've had to deal with some consequences - and maybe some nasty ones, too - before he might've made progress... and for Dean, it wasn't worth it. He wanted family peace more, so by compromising, Dean was going for what he wanted more - his "happy" family.

Maybe we`re talking at cross-purposes, What I mean to say is if you do something you don`t really want or enjoy to keep the peace, then even if keeping the peace is what you want, you still swallow down a lot in that interest. Those are not opposites to me. I am someone who really values keeping the peace and therefore compromise more and bite my tongue a lot. I don`t particularly enjoy doing it but, yes, I want the peace. That`s how I see Dean in the beginning with John. And I can relate to it being really sucky.

In the same vein I wouldn`t say that Sam who had way less interest in peace-keeping and more in making his points can`t complain about the negative reactions he got because he also only did what he wanted.  

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53 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In the same vein I wouldn`t say that Sam who had way less interest in peace-keeping and more in making his points can`t complain about the negative reactions he got because he also only did what he wanted.

Agreed - which is why I said that neither approach was right or wrong... just different. And due to John reasons, both situations pretty much sucked... which was kinda my point: that neither brother got an ideal situation and both had to compromise and/or live with less than ideal circumstances in order to get even a small part of what they wanted from their home life. I just disagree with the small point that compromising to keep peace in the family is only for entirely altruistic reasons, since peace in itself can be a desired goal. In fanfiction especially, it's often exaggerated one way or another as to one of the brothers getting all of the grief, abuse, etc. - and that brother can be either one the author chooses - but the reality is it sucked for both of them, just differently and for different reasons.

I can sympathize with your position, because I did a lot of compromising to keep the peace when I was younger, but then later on I went the "screw it" Sam route when peace in the family just wasn't worth me being the only one to compromise anymore, and it instead became a get out as soon as possible strategy instead. So I sympathize with Sam on that one, too.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I know the real reason is because the writers really just introduced the concept last Season and it was only meant for one Sam-episode so they never thought of any further implications but I don`t think Dean had, for whatever reasons, a more cushy deal as a kid that would explain it in show-canon. 

I agree, but I'm okay with that because I loved the Zanna. For me, they are one of the most interesting - especially in their grayness (i.e. they weren't just sparkly perfect, but had flaws) - characters the show had introduced a long time.

And I never meant to imply Dean had a more cushy deal - obviously he didn't - my point was more that Dean maybe had better coping mechanisms and a different personality than Sam. Dean seemed to feel that he "fit" more in the family than Sam did, even if Dean unfortunately had to do a lot of work to make himself fit... and much of that family feeling was one-sided on his part, but he maybe didn't find that out until later.

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I just disagree with the small point that compromising to keep peace in the family is only for entirely altruistic reasons, since peace in itself can be a desired goal.

I don`t think it`s entirely altruistic - very, very few actions ever are - but altruism does play a part IMO.   

Now I can`t say if that behaviour is typical of a child from any kind of birth order. With my friends and extended family I`ve seen siblings run a wide gamut of behavioural traits. And that is with normal upbringing. The Winchester way makes it hard to even compare.  

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my point was more that Dean maybe had better coping mechanisms and a different personality than Sam.

I would have liked some in-show acknowledgment on why either Dean never was approached by a Zanna or maybe even had one but forgot about it. Not Sully but some other. Just one trowayway line about it. As it was, all I could think was: wow, so that poor traumatized kid didn`t deserve help? you cold-hearted bastards. Of course I had other problems with the ep, namely the implication that Dean somehow fell down on the job with Sam when John took him on hunts as a kid and that he needed to feel guilty for that. I found and still find the very idea horrific. And Speight as director reiterating this notion just made it even uglier to me.       

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I didn't get those implications from the episode**, though I understand that miles vary. And Dean was acknowledged for taking great care of Sam in the end as well, so I was okay with it. I also thought that with Dean talking John into letting Sam come with them, the episode managed to not change canon all that much in terms of Sam and Dean's relationship - for me anyway, since there was already precedence of Sam staying home on his own while Dean and John hunted - and that was better than some episodes recently that just throw canon out the window. (*cough* "Taxi Driver" *cough*). I'm also not sure how the notion that Sam was a lonely kid sometimes was somehow a reflection on Dean. It's not Dean's job to make sure that Sam is happy at all times. Some kids just feel like they don't belong and get lonely sometimes.

I think the episode also made it fairly clear that the Zanna themselves were fallible and made mistakes sometimes, but for that brief time in Sam's life that Dean couldn't be there - for obvious reasons that were not Dean's fault - Sully was helpful for Sam. And for me, it was nice to get a positive character that was associated with Sam, since that doesn't tend to happen much in recent years (and for me Amelia doesn't really count, because I didn't find her all that "positive"), but I understand that miles vary.

I guess I look at it as "Just My Imagination" was Sam's "Bad Boys." Both even featured an "opportunities lost" kind of feel to them, when both boys chose to go back to family instead of the other option.

I even enjoyed (paraphrase) "you're not a germ," because it was so Sully.

** I don't pay much attention to writer, director, or anything interviews. Joss Whedon taught me to take it all with a bottle of salt and just focus on what I see onscreen, because the "spin" is generally too great. Look at all the season 8 crap about how Sam's decision to walk away from everything and leave Kevin to Crowley was supposedly "mature" even as Carver (his episode) had Kevin saying "Eeeeeat Me" over and over onscreen and basically showed Sam just running away from his problems rather than facing them and denying culpability. They can say all they want, but I'm going to be skeptical and focus on what I see onscreen.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm also not sure how the notion that Sam was a lonely kid sometimes was somehow a reflection on Dean. It's not Dean's job to make sure that Sam is happy at all times. Some kids just feel like they don't belong and get lonely sometimes.

I agree.  Sam and Dean are their own entities.  If one of them feels bad, or is not having the perfect life, it's not the other's fault.  Sure, if four-year old Sam was hungry and John told dEan to feed him and Dean blew it off, that would be on him.  But, just as it's not Sam's fault that John was always telling Dean to take care of him, or that he sold his soul, it's also not Dean's fault that Sam was lonely and a bit geeky or that he decided to leave college. 

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

** I don't pay much attention to writer, director, or anything interviews. Joss Whedon taught me to take it all with a bottle of salt and just focus on what I see onscreen, because the "spin" is generally too great. Look at all the season 8 crap about how Sam's decision to walk away from everything and leave Kevin to Crowley was supposedly "mature" even as Carver (his episode) had Kevin saying "Eeeeeat Me" over and over onscreen and basically showed Sam just running away from his problems rather than facing them and denying culpability. They can say all they want, but I'm going to be skeptical and focus on what I see onscreen.

My personal philosophy is, if it didn't happen on-screen (or at least talked about on-screen) it didn't happen.

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Oh this should be fun. This list is highly suspect given the SPN relationships they have included (and the ones they left out). I think this author has a very different definition of romance than I do. 

https://www.moviefone.com/photos/every-iconic-cw-romance-ranked-from-meh-to-swoon/

 

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33. Dean and Jo from 'Supernatural'

51. Sam and Ruby from 'Supernatural'

While Jared Padalecki and Genevieve Cortese are a delightful real-life couple, Sam and Ruby are garbage. She brings out the worst in him, and he would probably bring out the worst in her, but since she's a demon, she's kind of already at her worst.

 

Sam and Ruby.  This isn't an ICONIC romance.  Like how is this even count as a ROMANCE? They fucked? Because Sam was addicted to her demon blood? Romance my ass. 

 

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33. Dean and Jo from 'Supernatural'

Jo is maybe the only one who can put Dean in his place, and we love her for it. If only we got some more time with these two

There was no romance here. It was a mild flirtation at best IMO.  

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Ew. I hated Dean and Jo (probably because I hated Jo). Plus the show clearly showed us Dean thinking of Jo as a little sister. Then in an attempt to up the stakes, and emotionally manipulate the audience, they tried to add a random romantic element to it right before she dies ugh. 

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