Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[kismet]

This is all pure speculation - the only spoilery thing is the name of S4's Big Bad,

Damien Darhk

, but does anyone not know about him at this point?  Anyway, stop here if you don't want to read further...

Well you have set up a plausible way for them to get back together. I do think if they really stretch themselves they could make it happen. I just don't know if the audience would go with them. Like others, I could watch a show without O/F, but not sure if I could watch a show with O/L as an actual pairing. I just no longer feel that pairing is something I would ever want to see. There have been too many major steps away from them as a viable couple that it would be too much of a character disappointment (that is saying a lot) and a major setback to overlook it & accept the coupling.

 

What you proposed has many shades like ALIAS in s3. Except this time its not just a ship stall - or perhaps it might be when the writers get bored. Realistically, the only way I could see it happening is if there is a time jump on the show and FS would have to be dead. I don't even think presumed dead would work if we were shown FS. A good portion of the audience I think would be pining for them to get back together. But I could see the show going there is they are hitting the bottom of the barrel for storylines or there is pressure from networks/DC Comics for them to try GA/BC. All that being said, I still think as long as FS is alive - the show will end with OQ & FS always together.

 

I do think that even if FS went missing/presumed dead/brainwashed/amnesiac - OQ would go to the ends of every earth in every dimension to get her back. I don't see him moving on easily. Hence why a substantial time jump would be needed. In ALIAS, the only way I barely accepted that Vaughn ever moved on from Sydney was because they told me it had been 3 years and then gave me that amazing confession where he basically admitted to having a severe mental breakdown that made him suicidal and talking to a dead Sydney. So yeah, did I believe he moved on, reluctantly - did I know it was only a matter of time before they got back together the minute Sydney showed up, absolutely. Same goes for O/F, there is no way if one of them is breathing they will not stop looking for the other.

 

Lastly - I really do see the show bringing in multiple new LIs before ever going back to O/L even if they devise a plan to break-up O/F. I believe the "never say never" motto in both TV & life. So I get why they spin it a certain way in the press. But even if I can come up with hundreds of ways to work LL back together with OQ, there would have to be some substantial BTS reasons to actually put these plans in motion. I could believe that after an exhaustive search years later, OQ/FS may in honor of each other's memory will eventually try to pursue happiness because its what the other would have wanted for them to "be happy". But for me that time would only come when the show is ending or one of the actors no longer wants to be on the show. Even then I still see a Doug/Carol moment happening at some point.

[BkWurm1]

But for me that time would only come when the show is ending or one of the actors no longer wants to be on the show. Even then I still see a Doug/Carol moment happening at some point.

 

Here's a question, does anyone see the show going on if Steven Amell left? 

[Guest]

Here's a question, does anyone see the show going on if Steven Amell left? 

 

Noooooooo. Nope. What would be the point? The show is about Arrow.

[tarotx]

Well they could do it with Thea or Roy. But I think the only way it would happen if it's basically a spin off with Conner Hawke or with an all grown what ever the name of Ollie's Oops Baby from the Flashbacks. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

Here's a question, does anyone see the show going on if Steven Amell left? 

Yes, if they can generate enough buzz to maintain or build a new audience. Cast another charismatic actor in the role of Arrow's child (most likely a son) and s/he could continue the mission. Would I personally watch - probably not. I've been thinking they would go that direction since they stalled naming OQ as GA. I've proven wrong since there will be change in moniker. But I still think if they want this show beyond SA, the only way to do it is via a complete cast overhaul, with the next generation taking on the mantle.

Well they could do it with Thea or Roy. But I think the only way it would happen if it's basically a spin off with Conner Hawke or with an all grown what ever the name of Ollie's Oops Baby from the Flashbacks. 

Basically, what I've been saying for months. I think Thea or Roy could stay on as mentors. But the action will be all

Conner Hawke or whoever OQ's secret child

is going to be.

[BkWurm1]

Well they could do it with Thea or Roy. But I think the only way it would happen if it's basically a spin off with Conner Hawke or with an all grown what ever the name of Ollie's Oops Baby from the Flashbacks. 

You know, if they turned Arrow over to Thea, I'd probably have to check that out.   

 

But I still think if they want this show beyond SA, the only way to do it is via a complete cast overhaul, with the next generation taking on the mantle

 

But I don't think they would bring in a new cast.  I fear they'd pretzel up the story to come to some reason why Oliver is gone but everyone else stick around, that's one of my worries.  SA could have reason to want to not renew his contract but what about the rest of the cast?  It might make no sense for their characters but if the actors wanted to not change jobs yet and lets say the show was still bringing in good numbers, I could see the network attempt to keep it alive even though I can't think any example when that really worked. 

 

If they did a new cast, they'd essentially be doing a brand new show and would that get the green light? 

Edited October 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[quarks]

The best example I can think of is Charmed, but of course that show wasn't dependent on Shannon Doherty, so it may not be the best example. Another probably not great example: Stargate SG-1, which continued after Richard Dean Anderson greatly reduced his role. Of course, they still had Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge. L.A. Law went through a lot of cast changes, though of course that was a bit more of an ensemble show.

 

I think it tends to work a bit better in comedy -  Cheers did fine after Shelley Long left; Two and a Half Men kept going for a few years after Charlie Sheen left; and M.A.S.H. lost quite a few of its original cast members and did fine.

 

And I think we can all think of cases where it didn't work - Spin City leaping to mind.

[lemotomato]

Those are all ensemble shows, with co-leads. Arrow has one lead actor and the rest supporting. I really don't think it would last if SA chooses to leave. Its not a network darling (as evidenced by the CW's neglect of publicity and attention) and without SA there would be a huge vacuum-- both in terms of publicity and built up audience-- that couldn't be made up by anyone else currently on the show.

[Carrie Ann]

The CW has certainly proven that they're willing to try to soldier on after a lead leaves, but I think in most cases where that could work, the lead is not a particularly popular character. Where on Arrow, while Dig and Felicity are probably as widely-loved as Oliver, I don't think they could anchor the show on their own and I do think most people who watch are there for Oliver's story, at least in part (I know some people aren't, but from my observation, I think that's a smaller percentage than with other shows that follow this format). And I just don't think any of the other characters have as many fans as OTA. They've said (MG, GB, etc.) that the show lasts as long as Stephen wants to do it--that tells me they're not thinking ahead to transitioning it away from him. TBH at this point, I think if SA wanted out after S6 (for example), the CW might be happy to just take that budget back. Maybe use it to expand LoT to full season orders if they haven't already. They could also absorb some of the Arrow characters into the other shows, possibly. 

[BkWurm1]

They've said (MG, GB, etc.) that the show lasts as long as Stephen wants to do it--that tells me they're not thinking ahead to transitioning it away from him.

 

That is a reassuring reminder.  I know and you know and probably most everyone else would thing pushing on without the lead would be a terrible idea (without rebooting the whole show) but I worried that the people in charge might be blind to the fact. 

 

Another probably not great example: Stargate SG-1, which continued after Richard Dean Anderson greatly reduced his role. Of course, they still had Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge.

 

Not to mention Michael Shanks who I know for me was as least as equally important to the show as RDA.  Still, interestingly when RDA did finally retire after the eighth season, the show creators wanted to officially end Stargate SG-1 and restart  with Stargate Command which would still feature the new SG-1 but be enough of a separation from the old show so as not to draw unfair comparisons.  The network said no, keep the name since everyone knows it and while I personally kind of adore those two final seasons (characters more than some of the storylines) , unsurprisingly, it was constantly being judged for what it no longer was.  I really wonder what they could have accomplished if viewers were allowed to come to it with open expectations that a new show name would have allowed.  (Aka, if SA left and they wanted to rework a new show spun off from Arrow, I might check it out more willingly than watch what I loved be dragged to die slowly.)

[kismet]

You know, if they turned Arrow over to Thea, I'd probably have to check that out.   

 

But I don't think they would bring in a new cast.  I fear they'd pretzel up the story to come to some reason why Oliver is gone but everyone else stick around, that's one of my worries.  SA could have reason to want to not renew his contract but what about the rest of the cast?  It might make no sense for their characters but if the actors wanted to not change jobs yet and lets say the show was still bringing in good numbers, I could see the network attempt to keep it alive even though I can't think any example when that really worked. 

 

If they did a new cast, they'd essentially be doing a brand new show and would that get the green light? 

I bet you nobody's contract lasts longer than SA. They have probably legalesed a way to release the cast, should SA not renew his contract & they decide to end the show. Perhaps the contracts would be absorbed in the other shows, or maybe they would simply pay off their contracts.

 

No offense to the cast of Arrow, but they are not getting any younger. A show with an aging TA (minus SA) is probably not going to generate the numbers or audience the network is interested in. But I could see them trying one season out of convenience. But I'm more inclined to say that the network would be willing to give a chance to a younger cast to get the prized 18-24y demo. A complete reboot might also be cheaper because you can pay the actors less money. Plus a new show would be a fresh start, so the network or DC universe can do whatever they want with the show. It might get the green light if DC universe wants to keep the Green Arrow lore on TV.

 

However, I think this is all so far beyond speculation at this point. A lot of it would depend upon the status of the show, the network & the current TV atmosphere when these decisions are being made. That being said, ARROW is not as easily recast like an ensemble procedural where parts can easily be replaced or the focus shifted to other cast members. A show called ARROW without the Arrow does not seem like much of a show, or at least not the show people signed up for.

[Starfish35]

And a lot of it will depend on where the CW is as a network at this time next year.

[tv echo]

As I said, I was playing devil's advocate - which wasn't easy, given the existing show canon.  By putting this scenario in words, I'm hoping it never happens. Sorry for throwing in Supernatural.  I can only blame exhaustion - my brain went loopy.

 

Here's a question, does anyone see the show going on if Steven Amell left? 

No.  It's interesting but after reading that BuzzFeed interview with David Rapaport, it sounds like the show was originally set up as an ensemble show starring SA, KC and CD - who were packaged as a trio when presented to the EPs in casting.  I'd guess that it was meant to be the hero/villain journeys of GA, BC and maybe Dark Archer.  But then SA really stood out, and they restructured the show to focus on Oliver's hero journey, which meant delaying (or changing?) Laurel's story and killing off Tommy.  

[Chaser]

As someone previously mentioned, I find that set-up really funny given the insistence that they were not Smallville.

 

Oliver Queen - Clark Kent

 

Tommy Merlyn - Lex Luthor

 

Laurel Lance - Lana Lang

 

But really they were worse because of the Oliver and Tommy were like brothers in love with the same woman. That's throwing in some Vampire Diaries right there.

Edited October 7, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Primal Slayer]

The Vampire Diaries is the reason why they wanted to go that route.

[Chaser]

Who else is super thankful they promoted WM instead of bringing over Julie Plec?

[lemotomato]

Who else is super thankful they promoted WM instead of bringing over Julie Plec?

I didn't even know that was under consideration. Why would anyone think that would've been a good fit?

[dtissagirl]

From an article about S4, this part made me laugh:

 

A less “crazy-toon” plot.

 

For those who were less happy with the narrative whiplash of Season 3, rest assured, the Arrow writers are slowing it down for Season 4 without losing that signature action-packed pace. Guggenheim said: “What I really like about Season 4 is, it’s going to have its normal twists and turns, but I don’t think it’s as crazy-toon storytelling like we were doing in Season 3. It was like an orgy of plot twists near the end … It feels like a new show — not a brand new show, but it feels like the show is evolving, as all shows should do to stay fresh and current and new.”

 

Source: http://thetelevixen.com/arrow-showrunners-talk-season-4/

 

"Crazy-toon storytelling" is THE PERFECT description for 3B. At least Guggie is self-aware?

[apinknightmare]

 

It was like an orgy of terrible plot twists near the end

 

Fixed it.

[Carrie Ann]

I didn't even know that was under consideration. Why would anyone think that would've been a good fit?

 

I'm positive that that was never under consideration. JP is co-running three shows at The CW currently, IIRC. I'm sure she was not in the market for another.

[Chaser]

Yeah. Julie Plec was just a joke because she was everywhere.

[BkWurm1]

As someone previously mentioned, I find that set-up really funny given the insistence that they were not Smallville.

 

Oliver Queen - Clark Kent

 

Tommy Merlyn - Lex Luthor

 

Laurel Lance - Lana Lang

 

But really they were worse because of the Oliver and Tommy were like brothers in love with the same woman. That's throwing in some Vampire Diaries right there.

Lana Lang is like the perfect comic damsel but Dinah Laurel Lance playing the object between two guys offends me.  The Black Canary should never be reduced to that.  

 

It's interesting to realize that it wasn't until after the Pilot that they recognized that Amell was the main lead and they should go with that.  They were kind of obtuse if they hadn't already figured out that if the dude is in all the flashbacks and the focus of the most interesting present scenes he is the lead.  I guess the original premise of the show explains why Tommy initially came off as a bit creepy, though I actually liked him and Laurel when they had their conversation about her always saving the world.

[SonofaBiscuit]

OK, so I'm seeing a lot of votes for Quentin being the one to die this season.  I don't want this because 1.) Paul Blackthorne is a lovely, lovely man.  2.) The producers looooooove that Lance family drama.  No more Quentin on Arrow means no more Lance family on Arrow (well, we still have Dinah, but ewww no).  This means all "Lance family drama" now becomes "Laurel drama."  Hell no!

[BkWurm1]

I agree that losing PB and Quentin would be a shame but they've had a target on his back since end of season two.  :(  Maybe we'll get lucky and it will be Malcolm!

[bijoux]

I sort of have Quentin pegged too. Partly because I think he's playing Darhk and is with him only to throw him off track. He's obiously not going to rat out Laurel and he can't to that to the others without risking her. Plus, it sort of pushes him into Oliver's role before everyone and their mother knowing about him being the Arrow in a way. There we had Oliver playing drunken fuckboy Queen who was throwing tasteless going to jail parties while he was actually saving people. Here we could have Quentin apparently in cahoots with the big bad while actually keeping him off his intended targets. That would make Oliver's comment about him feeling it was his fault in the past, but now seeing it as his responisibility. Because Qunetin bites the bullet for protecting him.

Or maybe it's just Sara. They like killing her.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm really hoping that they give some of DD's henchmen personalities and give him some right hand men that can operate on their own when he isn't around.

[wingster55]

I'm still waiting for Felicity to be shown as wrong about...anything. Also for her to have a tech limitation.

[lemotomato]

In 2x10 (Blast Radius)  and 2x12 (Clock King) she lost tech duels with the bad guys. In 3x8, she didn't realize that Boomerang used the phone she was hacking to trace the lair's location until it was almost too late, and in 3x10 she didn't know Merlyn was spying on the lair through her computers.

Edited October 10, 2015 by lemotomato

[wingster55]

Fair point. I guess I wasn't a fan of the Bali line.

Still waiting for her to be wrong of something

[wonderwall]

Bali isn't a remote island that isn't tech advanced. It has wi-fi, it has resorts with great internet connection, I'd know, I used to go there regularly when I lived in Asia. Getting 'email' in Bali is probably the easiest thing Felicity has done. 

[wingster55]

As per the show...it doesn't(or maybe I have the line wrong)

[apinknightmare]

I thought Felicity was just feeding Oliver a line about the email so he wouldn't be onto her.

[wonderwall]

Oliver is so dumb, so trusting...

 

But yeah, I'd much rather believe that it was easy for FS to get internet than to believe the show thinks of Indonesia/Bali as just a jungle with no internet/wifi -_-

Edited October 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

I'm sure they were just at a remote spot that didn't have regular internet connections but she boosted the signal from a nearby place that did. I mean it's not unusual for there to be dead spots in coverage but more likely they were at some "at one with nature" vacation spot that purposely boasts no internet, hence not even email.

Edited October 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[SonofaBiscuit]

Regarding the speculation that Lance is the death.  Sigh.  Why do people have to die to give Laurel a storyline?  Also, I DO NOT WANT THIS!  No Lance means no more characters for Laurel to interact with outside of Team Arrow.  Laurel in the lair all of the time?  Boo!

[apinknightmare]

I don't think he'd be dying to give Laurel a storyline. It seems like they've run out of storyline for him since he keeps going back and forth on vigilante justice. I wouldn't mind him being offed at this point. His whole spiel is tired.

[Kymmi]

This is the most unspoiled by an episode I have ever been since season 2.  It's kind of killing me, but it's kind of fun to look forward to it really not knowing much of what can happen.  I saw the episode description, so I have some idea, and I know one of the characters they are introducing is one that I have been looking forward to since hearing the casting news so I'm oddly excited.  I really really REALLY hope this is a solid episode that brings back some of the Arrow love.  How long can Diggle stay mad at Oliver?  I'd like that to start wrapping up.

[kismet]

I want a bottle episode where Team Arrow & QL are locked together in the new Lair and until they work out their issues. I want there to be a talking stick and a secret circle where everyone shares what they are keeping from TA. Maybe even a group hug at the end. Perhaps Roy can come back to facilitate it.

Edited October 16, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

Roy can light the meditation candle if Oliver had any he kept out of the previous lair.

[kismet]

Maybe MM can send some candles over as a consolation present, since he will be unable to attend the party. I don't need to hear any more of his secrets. Save those for when the writers decide to get back on the correct track and make him evil again. :)

Edited October 16, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

You know the more I read the speculation about who might be in the grave. The more I think it would be perfect symmetry if LL is the one in the grave in the PD and FB

LI

is in a grave in the FB. It would be poetic for him to lose

two past loves

- so he can move forward in his heroic journey as Green Arrow.

 

Edited - cuz i think accidentally some stuff might be spoilery

Edited October 19, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

Never mind. Figured out the answer right after I posted the question.

Edited October 19, 2015 by bijoux

[statsgirl]

No offense to the cast of Arrow, but they are not getting any younger. A show with an aging TA (minus SA) is probably not going to generate the numbers or audience the network is interested in.

I just read this, and I feel old.  Sure DR is half-way to being a senior citizen but EBR and Willa Holland are 25.  Between this and the sportcasters comments on the old pitchers (41 and 42) and how they're going to have trouble standing up to the  young batters, I feel very, very old.

 

If SA left, I agree that they would just fold the budget and maybe some of the characters into The Flash or LoT, or maybe start a whole new show.

[Primal Slayer]

They would probably spend the last season setting up a new spin off to take its place.

[tv echo]

My rambling thoughts on who's in the grave...

 

The EPs have given somewhat contradictory statements that might pertain to this question.  At one point, they said that they already know how the season is going to end and where each of the characters will end up.  But at another point they said that they don't necessarily know yet who's going to be in the grave. That leads me to speculate that perhaps they already know who they want to be in the grave by season's end, but they haven't yet obtained approval from DC Comics, the WB and/or the CW to go forward with their plan.  If I'm correct, then DC Comics would have to approve if the character death is a comics character, and the WB/CW would have to approve if the character death would affect Arrow's ratings, marketing or popularity.

 

Death possibilities:
-Quentin
-Diggle
-Felicity
-Thea
-Laurel
-Roy
-Lyla
-Oliver's baby mama
-Oliver's flashback love interest
-Curtis' husband

 

Quentin is a popular choice because he's now the most expendable and least liked character on the show (I believe).  However, I doubt DC Comics or CW/WB could care about his death, so no delay in making the death decision would be necessary.  Diggle is not likely because he's one of the most popular characters on the show and a member of OTA.  Felicity is a popular choice for her haters, but it would be suicidal for the show - she's a beloved character and member of OTA, and you'd lose a significant portion of the fandom (as well as free marketing/PR and awards wins).  Thea and Laurel now have comic book superhero identities, so would DC Comics really approve of killing off a classic comics character?  Plus, KC is a staple of the CW actors pool (and apparently a favorite in the Rapaport family).  I guess they could bring back Roy just to kill him off, but that seems too much like a cheat.  Lyla is the show's connection to ARGUS - and do we really need another woman's death to provide motivation for a man (Diggle)?  Oliver's past love interests (baby mama, flashback LI) are possibilities, but why would Barry be there? Same question if it was Curtis' husband who dies.  I can see Barry being invited to the funeral if it was a member of TA, who he has met or will meet over the next six months - but no one else. 

 

As for why Oliver would be the one standing alone at the grave for someone who has a closer relative or significant other who should be there (Laurel for Quentin's death, Lyla for Diggle's death, Thea for Roy's death, Quentin/Dinah/Sara for Laurel's death, Diggle for Lyla's death, and Curtis for his husband's death), that closer relative or significant other could be seriously injured in the same incident that kills the dead character, which is why it's Oliver standing there alone. Or they could have already said their goodbyes and left, and it's later now when Oliver returns alone.

 

As for why Felicity isn't with Oliver if she's not the one who dies, it could be any number of things. If the dead character is a past love interest, he would want a moment alone and Felicity would know that.  Or Oliver and Felicity could have broken up by then for some plot-contrived reason.  Or Felicity could be injured and in the hospital. Or Felicity could be comforting someone back at the car.

 

So long as the dead character isn't Felicity or Diggle, I don't really care who's in the grave.  If it is Felicity, I don't believe that Oliver would still say he doesn't believe it's his fault, just his responsibility.  He definitely would think it's his fault because he decided to stay in Star City and fight as the GA, even when Felicity offered to leave with him again. If it is Felicity or Diggle, I would like to think that he'd be more devastated (and enraged) than just a stoic face and single manly tear.

Edited October 21, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

My rambling thoughts on who's in the grave...

 

The EPs have given somewhat contradictory statements that might pertain to this question.  At one point, they said that they already know how the season is going to end and where each of the characters will end up.  But at another point they said that they don't necessarily know yet who's going to be in the grave. That leads me to speculate that perhaps they already know who they want to be in the grave by season's end, but they haven't yet obtained approval from DC Comics, the WB and/or the CW to go forward with their plan.  If I'm correct, then DC Comics would have to approve if the character death is a comics character, and the WB/CW would have to approve if the character death would affect Arrow's ratings, marketing or popularity.

 

So long as the dead character isn't Felicity or Diggle, I don't really care who's in the grave.  .

I like your interpretation & theory about how they are answering the question in the media. They probably do know by this point, but are waiting for approval.

 

Agree with your bold. I do care about how they bring the death about, so I'm invested in that angle. But who is in there does not matter so long as it is not FS or JD.

Edited October 21, 2015 by kismet

[BunsenBurner]

Why couldn't it be MM/RAG?  I realize that there would be no reason for the lone tear going down OQ's face but. . . It could be for Thea for losing her dad.

 

I'm just ready for him to leave.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I'd be all for the grave being Malcolm, but I feel like Oliver would be doing the Dance of Joy rather than shedding one lone tear.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I'd be all for the grave being Malcolm, but I feel like Oliver would be doing the Dance of Joy rather than shedding one lone tear.

Either Monica Gellar's joyful turkey dance or the "Bang, bang, bangety, bang, I said ah bang bang bangety bang, bang bang bang" dance. 

[dtissagirl]