S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[EtheltoTillie]

54 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Apologies if this makes you feel old. Are filmstrips reels of movie film, like what you would play on old projection equipment? As for her familiarity, I would assume it would have been records or cassette tapes in a music/ music appreciation class in high school. 

 

I have to answer this trivia question:  filmstrips are not moving pictures.  They are actual strips of film with still photos as I remember them.  There might be five photos in a strip.  They would be slid through a projector, and you would be shown one picture at a time.  In the early 60s we were shown many of these tedious static educational products in elementary school.  Things like The Mighty Atom!  Or Famous Presidents!  you get the idea.  Yes, it makes me feel old.  Oh, well.  Sometimes we were shown moving pictures also with a different kind of projector.

Edited April 5, 2018 by GussieK

[Pink-n-Green]

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

 It's interesting they decided to approve her training as a field operative, because she's TERRIBLE. I'd have thought Paige could be trained in other ways that were more suited to her personality and skills, but maybe that's to come.

My husband had an excellent suggestion; Paige could be that lady who sits in her apartment and takes phone calls for the spies!

[jjj]

39 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I have to answer this trivia question:  filmstrips are not moving pictures.  They are actual strips of film with still photos as I remember them.  There might be five photos in a strip.  They would be slid through a projector, and you would be shown one picture at a time.  In the early 60s we were shown many of these tedious static educational products in elementary school.  Things like The Mighty Atom!  Or Famous Presidents!  you get the idea.  Yes, it makes me feel old.  Oh, well.  Sometimes we were shown moving pictures also with a different kind of projector.

 

Indeed, filmstrips are not moving pictures -- but there could be a lot of single slides on a filmstrip.  I can't imaging anyone using one in 1987 unless it was a 65-year-old teacher in a rural school who had no other experience!  Sometimes they would be linked to a narration on a record (big round black thing, goes around in circles and plays sound), with little "beeps" embedded in the record narrative, so the person running the slide project would move to the next slide.  "That is the Mighty Amazon River" <beep> "And this is one of the exotic friends of the rainforest, the Scarlet Macaw".   Blow you can see a little strip of film -- it could be 40-50 individual images on a long strip.  (Plus, helpful hints for schoolboy behavior in this image!)  I don't think I ever saw one in action -- but have seen them in films.  Maybe in "The Wonder Years," also? 

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[Sarah 103]

14 minutes ago, GussieK said:

I have to answer this trivia question:  filmstrips are not moving pictures.  They are actual strips of film with still photos as I remember them.  There might be five photos in a strip.  They would be slid through a projector, and you would be shown one picture at a time.  In the early 60s we were shown many of these tedious static educational products in elementary school.  Things like The Mighty Atom!  Or Famous Presidents!  you get the idea.  Yes, it makes me feel old.  Oh, well.  Sometimes we were shown moving pictures also with a different kind of projector.

 

So was it more like a slide projector than a movie projector? If there only five photos in a strip, did someone have to be constantly loading the next strip into the projector? What about sound? Was there sound built into the strip? Was there a record that went with it? Did you have to time it just right like Dark Side of Oz or did teachers read from a script? Youth wants to know. 

Thank you @jjj for answering most my questions on sound. You posted while I was writing. I'm still confused about whether they worked like a movie projector (it runs and the teacher stands there) or more like a slide projector (the teacher has to advance to the next image)

Edited April 5, 2018 by Sarah 103

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, LouisP. said:

I find it hard to believe how easily Phillip transitioned into a "normal" life. Now, it seems, Elizabeth loathes what he has become.  In prior episodes, Stan saw drawings of the suspected spies. I'm surprised he didn't think they looked a little like his neighbors.

Given how Philip has always had a variety of interests and how terribly tired and burned out he was, I believe it. 

I think Elizabeth resents being left alone in the spy life. This is harder than she anticipated. 

I never thought those sketches looked much like them. I don’t think Stan has ever had a real reason to look twice at P and E. 

ETA- I’m surprised there’s controversy over his manner of death. Seemed to me Elizabeth killed him and is making it look like a suicide. Why would he kill himself? He came to kill Elizabeth, but hesitated too long- since he wasn’t ruthless. I think I need to re-watch him from S1.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Erin9

[Pink-n-Green]

7 hours ago, teddysmom said:

Is it me or does Keri Russell not know how to hold a cigarette. It always seems a little off.  I've never smoked but both my parents did and I never saw my mother hold a cigarette like she does. 

I've been wondering if she's trying to give herself cancer. 

In a Nelson DeMille novel called "The Charm School", the American intelligence officer correctly pegged a supposed American journalist as a deep cover Soviet spy because when the guy held his cigarette he kept a finger underneath it.  Apparently, Soviet cigarettes tended to droop.  Not that this has anything to do with anything; I just thought it was interesting :)

[EtheltoTillie]

39 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I am embarrassed to admit that I am a very long-term smoker (B&H Menthol Lights as well!) and my first thought upon watching Elizabeth smoke last night was that Kerri Russell is not a smoker.  If nothing else, she didn’t inhale.

I'm a former smoker, and I cosign this.  I can always tell that the actors aren't really smoking.  Once in a great while, someone is really smoking (not on TV--maybe a movie), and it feels so shocking.  I smoked Multifilters, for the record. 

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm not sure we should take the travel agency topic to another thread--it does seem to be part of the episode.  Travel agencies still exist, but they're either small (a "housewife" working out of her home and doing everything by email) or a gigantic web site, like Expedia.  Expedia is actually a travel agency.  I recently used a housewife to arrange a cruise, and it was a lot easier to let her do it than wasting time poking around the web sites.  It didn't cost us any more than the listed prices.

Edited April 5, 2018 by GussieK

[kokapetl]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

Thank you because I was really confused.

That makes me feel better; I wasn't the only one who didn't get what was going on during the scene. 

Apologies if this makes you feel old. Are filmstrips reels of movie film, like what you would play on old projection equipment? As for her familiarity, I would assume it would have been records or cassette tapes in a music/ music appreciation class in high school. 

Henry's always been better at reading people and assesing the situation than Paige. 

But at least Stan gets credit for knowing he is the last person who should be doing this, as opposed to thinking he totally has this covered and knows exactly what to do.

It's "Squvirr-rrell" there's a v in there when said with the accent. 

Actually, I think that might make it more interesting. Instead of coming home knowing exactly what the other did at work because you were in a whole bunch of scenes together, you get to hear about something different. If one of them is worried about a scene, instead of knowing exactly how it turned out because the other was there, he or she can ask a few days later, "how did that scene you were worried about end up, did you figure out the problem", type of stuff. 

I've seen footage of David Hasslehoff rocking out too, but I don't remember Christmas lights. I'm a few years older than you are, but like you, this something I am aware of from news footage in documentaries, not actual memories. Slightly off-topic, I was in college during the 20th anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall. One of my friends who was a few years ahead of me (she also did not go right from high school to college, furthering the age difference) said she felt so old, because she could remember the Wall coming down. I had just been discussing the subject of the Wall with my father a few nights before so I told her, "Don't feel old. My father remembers when they built the Berlin Wall."

You are right. This is pure television and does not make sense. 

Yes! This is my problem with the storyline. She should not be in the field for a whole host of reasons, many of which you just listed. The goal is for her to have a job in a government office, so she can meet with someone like Elizabeth or Philip and give them information. There are some skills she would need, like how to avoid detection, how to spot someone following her, but the missions they have her doing do not make sense with the future plans of the Centre. 

I totally agree with all of this. 

I had a friend in college who had a theory. If you look like you are under the age of 30 and are wearing a college hoodie, you can be in a public place reading anything and no one will give it a second look. You could read Mein Kampf and people would think it's for a class on WWII, the Holocuast, European History, Totalitarianism, or any number of subjects. 

Yes! This is my question too. The goal for the second generation like Paige is for her to have the job, not sleep with the person who has the job.

And I would add students as well. As an elective, Paige could be taking a literature class, where she meets someone majoring in foriegn relations (some electives bring together people from different majors). That friend could become very useful 20 to 30 years later. As in, "Let's meet for coffee." and then get her talking about work. Instead of crazy spy missions they should be trainng her how to conduct subtle interrogations. How to get people to reveal more information than they intended, how to read between the lines.  

Philip and Elizabeth should both have stopped spying if they really valued Paige as a source. Paige the legitimate US citizen won’t get top secret access to anything if her mother gets exposed as a Soviet spy. 

[jjj]

34 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Thank you @jjj for answering most my questions on sound. You posted while I was writing. I'm still confused about whether they worked like a movie projector (it runs and the teacher stands there) or more like a slide projector (the teacher has to advance to the next image)

 

Someone had to advance the filmstrip at the appropriate moments -- and usually there would be an eager-beaver student self-appointed as AV monitor who would do this for the teacher!  And also untangle actual films from movie projectors as needed... I did see this with actual films, but am later than the filmstrip era!  

Did Paige actually refer to filmstrips?  I'd be so surprised if GWU was showing filmstrips in the later 1980s. And I have to go back for Stan's reference to the alligator shoes, which I completely missed. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Given how Philip has always had a variety of interests and how terribly tired and burned out he was, I believe it. 

I think Elizabeth resents being left alone in the spy life. This is harder than she anticipated. 

I never thought those sketches looked much like them. I don’t think Stan has ever had a real reason to look twice at P and E. 

ETA- I’m surprised there’s controversy over his manner of death. Seemed to me Elizabeth killed him and is making it look like a suicide. Why would he kill himself? He came to kill Elizabeth, but hesitated too long- since he wasn’t ruthless. I think I need to re-watch him from S1.

Definitely yes to most of this.  I did think the General aimed the gun at his own head.  DAMN dark scenes!

The one the apartment manager made of Philip looks a lot like him.  Also, remember, they have Philip's fingerprint.  Stan could get that without breaking a sweat if the slightest thing pings his radar about the Jennings.  All he has to do is hand him a beer, take it when it's empty.  Or the prints would be on their silverware from dinners, etc.

18 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

In a Nelson DeMille novel called "The Charm School", the American intelligence officer correctly pegged a supposed American journalist as a deep cover Soviet spy because when the guy held his cigarette he kept a finger underneath it.  Apparently, Soviet cigarettes tended to droop.  Not that this has anything to do with anything; I just thought it was interesting :)

Yes, remember at the time how so many said that novel was all fiction?  I don't think it was, I'm almost positive places like this existed.  We would have done it here to, but so few US natives could ever master Russian.

Also, BTW, bringing up my favorite ex CIA guy, Bob Baer again?  He said that he personally knew several KGB/GRU agents who did speak PERFECT "American English with an Indiana accent."  So someone was training them well, and yes, the embedded spies that were actually caught and inspired this show didn't all speak perfect English.  That doesn't mean that no KGB/GRU spies couldn't pass that test with flying colors though.  I've never had a hard time believing that Nadezdha and Misha weren't well trained as well as gifted in languages, I think that's a big reason they were chosen.

Which, by the way, I can see them not pushing Paige to speak Russian, why risk anything that could possibly draw attention to them being off?  But, why not French, a language many Russians do speak, and that wouldn't raise any eyebrows at all?  Especially since they knew they were grooming her for spy work?

7 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip and Elizabeth should both have stopped spying if they really valued Paige as a source. Paige the legitimate US citizen won’t get top secret access to anything if her mother gets exposed as a Soviet spy. 

If things weren't so desperate in the USSR, that might have been one option for them.  But they are, and they can't spare Elizabeth.

Why on earth they let Philip sit on his ass and not take him out is the one that puzzles me.

[crashdown]

29 minutes ago, jjj said:

Indeed, filmstrips are not moving pictures -- but there could be a lot of single slides on a filmstrip.  I can't imaging anyone using one in 1987 unless it was a 65-year-old teacher in a rural school who had no other experience!  Sometimes they would be linked to a narration on a record (big round black thing, goes around in circles and plays sound), with little "beeps" embedded in the record narrative, so the person running the slide project would move to the next slide.  "That is the Mighty Amazon River" <beep> "And this is one of the exotic friends of the rainforest, the Scarlet Macaw".   Blow you can see a little strip of film -- it could be 405- individual images on a long strip.  (Plus, helpful hints for schoolboy behavior in this image!)  I don't think I ever saw one in action -- but have seen them in films.  Maybe in "The Wonder Years," also? 

I'm 51, so I'm just about Paige's age, and I certainly watched filmstrips throughout elementary school.  It was a filmstrip projector, not a slide projector or a movie projector. Sometimes there was no sound and someone had to read captions below each picture.  Sometimes there was sound that was played on a record (an actual LP record), and there would be a "beep" to let the person know when to advance to the next picture.  In my school, at least, it was a great honor to be chosen to be the one to be in charge of advancing the picture or reading the captions.

[Erin9]

I hadn’t considered the possibility that Elizabeth really wanted to talk about Paige’s spy skills, but Philip failed to pursue the subject. Right now, I still tend to think she didn’t. But maybe.

She started the conversation by saying Paige is doing very  well. She adds that Paige made a mistake- but she chose to reveal the mistake that sounded the most innocuous and didn’t put it into context for Philip. If she’d really wanted a discussion on her spy skills, she wouldn’t have started by praising Paige imo. And/or she’d have chosen the attention getter of Paige losing her ID and leaving Elizabeth to clean up the mess. She made it sound as minor as possible, and at the same time, sound like she was opening up with him. 

I think Elizabeth is a bit worried- hence her mentioning the mistake at all and noting she learned fast. But I don’t think she’s faced what I think the reality may be: Paige isn’t a superspy and she isn’t being trained properly either. Recipe for disaster. I tend to think she wanted some reassurance from Philip. But it’s possible that was a rather clumsy attempt to discuss things. 

[jjj]

1 minute ago, crashdown said:

I'm 51, so I'm just about Paige's age, and I certainly watched filmstrips throughout elementary school.  It was a filmstrip projector, not a slide projector or a movie projector. Sometimes there was no sound and someone had to read captions below each picture.  Sometimes there was sound that was played on a record (an actual LP record), and there would be a "beep" to let the person know when to advance to the next picture.  In my school, at least, it was a great honor to be chosen to be the one to be in charge of advancing the picture or reading the captions.

Oh, yes, I could understand Paige seeing filmstrips in elementary school in the 1970s.  But weird if they are using filmstrips at GWU in 1987. (I am guessing she said that in the episode, although I did not hear it.)  And yes, it was an honor to be the AV point person in a class!  

[crashdown]

Nobody would use filmstrips in college--it's an elementary school thing.  That's ridiculous.  (As an aside, one of the most traumatic things that I've ever witnessed--granted, I've had an easy life--was in second grade, when the kid turning the filmstrip somehow put a crayon on top of the projector, and it exploded into his eye.  He was ok, but the teacher rushed him out of the room, leaving the rest of us in stunned silence.)

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Nobody would use filmstrips in college--it's an elementary school thing.  That's ridiculous.  (As an aside, one of the most traumatic things that I've ever witnessed--granted, I've had an easy life--was in second grade, when the kid turning the filmstrip somehow put a crayon on top of the projector, and it exploded into his eye.  He was ok, but the teacher rushed him out of the room, leaving the rest of us in stunned silence.)

OMG <just like Elizabeth>  (was it a red crayon?) 

[crgirl412]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

1.  We've seen him a lot on the show.  I don't remember ever seeing KGB in the travel agency, and no, Stavos is just a Greek immigrant, has no idea about the KGB or Philip's real (former) job.

2.  Paige is now KGB, being trained.  Philip is not.  He can't get anywhere near that, I suppose they could chat, but it might bug Claudia and Elizabeth if they do, which would not be good. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I know we see a scene with them later since I'm spoiled, so we'll see how that goes.

  I don't think Philip could have a real conversation with Paige without violating his deal with the KGB though.

3.  So Elizabeth is torturing her, I was a bit confused about that.  However, I've NEVER heard of a hospice nurse, or the equivalent EVER caring if a dying patient might become addicted to pain killers.  That was bullshit, they are there to keep them out of pain as much as possible.

 

There is thing in the world of treating late stage cancer pain that says, "who cares if they get addicted?"  Sadly, at that point most don't live long enough to get truly addicted.  Building a tolerance is more common but the docs would just increase the dose or go to what is the next intervention that could work such as a fentanyl patch or nerve block or others.  

I used to give pain meds to patients with late stage lung cancer where they had mets to the bones, most often the vertebrae or ribs.  They were in the last stage so we were giving palliative care which can include large and/or frequent doses of opioids.    

Can I just give shout out to Pain Management Physicians?  They are still a secret to many patients.  They can change someone's life with their interventions!!  Check out the links for more info:

-https://www.asra.com/page/44/the-specialty-of-chronic-pain-management      

-http://www.painmed.org/

Edited April 6, 2018 by crgirl412

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, crgirl412 said:

There is thing in the world of treating late stage cancer pain that says, "who cares if they get addicted?"  Sadly, at that point most don't live long enough to get addicted.  I used to give pain meds to patients with late stage lung cancer where they had mets to the bones, most often the vertebrae or ribs.  They were in the last stage so we were giving palliative care which can include large and/or frequent doses of opioids.       

It is about building up a tolerance, not addiction.  Elizabeth wants morphine to keep working for pain relief for the artist, because Elizabeth wants her to stay alive for two more months.  If she overuses morphine, she will be in pain all the time because she will be at maximum dosage and it will not hold back the pain, and all she could do is to overdose and die.  That is why Elizabeth said to Claudia that the final weeks will be agonizing -- because Elizabeth is determined to keep her alive, despite her offer to the husband.  She made that offer so she would know what they are planning.  Now Elizabeth knows that is exactly the husband and wife's plan -- to overdose on the bits of morphine they have saved up.  Elizabeth can affect that plan.  

ETA:  It is clear you understand the use of morphine -- but probably have not had an Elizabeth there keeping the doses lower to keep the tolerance at a level where the morphine will still work over a longer period of weeks.  Elizabeth's plan is insidious.

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[SunnyBeBe]

I almost laughed last night when Claudia gave E another assignment, on TOP of everything else she's doing.  lol  It almost seemed like a joke.  She's trying to get all this intel on the upcoming summit, meet with the State Dept. guy,  train Paige, take care of the sick lady, steal her husband's secrets, entertain Stan and his crew for dinner  AND by the way, go get some super, techie, special radiation senors from the US military.  I mean.......can't someone else step in?  What's Claudia doing, beside watching movies and playing records? 

I've been to DC quite a few times, but, I've never noticed hills like that?  Anyone know where that was? (Near Paige's apt.)

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I almost laughed last night when Claudia gave E another assignment, on TOP of everything else she's doing.  lol  It almost seemed like a joke.  She's trying to get all this intel on the upcoming summit, meet with the State Dept. guy,  train Paige, take care of the sick lady, steal her husband's secrets, entertain Stan and his crew for dinner  AND by the way, go get some super, techie, special radiation senors from the US military.  I mean.......can't someone else step in?  What's Claudia doing, beside watching movies and playing records? 

I've been to DC quite a few times, but, I've never noticed hills like that?  Anyone know where that was? (Near Paige's apt.)

Yes, the Evil Empire fell because Elizabeth had to cover all the spy jobs in D.C. 

Here is an elevation map for D.C., with a few elevated areas, but I agree that the city is fairly flat where I have walked it -- 

[whiporee]

3 hours ago, jjj said:

I definitely rely on the memory of others, because I binged-watched the first four seasons, and they are a blur!  Someday I will watch in a more reasonable way, unless the end of the series makes me reject everything that came before the ending (like ANOTHER series I will never watch again because of the ending!).

I saw what you answered, but I would have bet the farm on Battlestar Galatica. That ending was enough to diminish if not destroy five (?) seasons of some of the best stuff on TV. 

And then they flat out blew the landing and took away from everything great they had done. Bleh. 

[crgirl412]

42 minutes ago, jjj said:

It is about building up a tolerance, not addiction.  Elizabeth wants morphine to keep working for pain relief for the artist, because Elizabeth wants her to stay alive for two more months.  If she overuses morphine, she will be in pain all the time because she will be at maximum dosage and it will not hold back the pain, and all she could do is to overdose and die.  That is why Elizabeth said to Claudia that the final weeks will be agonizing -- because Elizabeth is determined to keep her alive, despite her offer to the husband.  She made that offer so she would know what they are planning.  Now Elizabeth knows that is exactly the husband and wife's plan -- to overdose on the bits of morphine they have saved up.  Elizabeth can affect that plan.  

ETA:  It is clear you understand the use of morphine -- but probably have not had an Elizabeth there keeping the doses lower to keep the tolerance at a level where the morphine will still work over a longer period of weeks.  Elizabeth's plan is insidious.

 

She's a special kind of sick monster. 

In 1987, I don't even think the specialty of Pain Management was invented yet so that is "good" for Elizabeth.  If the woman had manageable pain, she wouldn't need 24 hour nursing care so no Elizabeth taking care of her.

I need to amend myself.   There are many reasons besides pain that someone needs 24 hour nursing care then and today- people with trachs, on vents, tube feeds, cardiac issues, and more.  Back then it would've been much more common due to pain but not so much today.     

Edited April 6, 2018 by crgirl412
want to get it right.

[EtheltoTillie]

15 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've been to DC quite a few times, but, I've never noticed hills like that?  Anyone know where that was? (Near Paige's apt.)

Brooklyn, AFAIK.

[Umbelina]

They should really address the shortage of spies the KGB in Washington is suddenly experiencing.

Given the gravity of the summit meeting about nukes, you'd think they'd redirect a few into that area, OR lean on Philip.

A couple currently stationed in New York or San Francisco or wherever COULD be reassigned to DC.  Extended business trip, or a job offer would be easily arranged. 

Note, I don't want to meet them at this late stage but it would be nice if there was a mention of another embedded spy couple pitching in to cover some stuff.

2 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I saw what you answered, but I would have bet the farm on Battlestar Galatica. That ending was enough to diminish if not destroy five (?) seasons of some of the best stuff on TV. 

And then they flat out blew the landing and took away from everything great they had done. Bleh. 

That's how I felt about Alias.  I'm finally over it, but I still have issues watching that last episode.  I felt like they threw away some important previous, and touching, evolving. 

Spoiler

NO!  Irina would NOT do that to her daughter!

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, another funny for me was when Stan and Adderholt were discussing Oleg's registration for the class on Urban Regional Relocation or something like that!  The look on Stan's face!  He knows.  NO Way. Will anyone actually check to see if he really attends that seminar?  Sounds riveting.  

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

This may be an unpopular opinion but as someone who felt the S3 finale was one of the best hours of television, ever... I've felt increasingly since then that the showrunners are wildly overpraised for knowing what they are doing. Too much time with the navel-gazing podcast and fan service (SONGS! WIGS! WACKY COVER IDS!) and less time really thinking through how everything was weaving together and where they needed to allocate the narrative weight to getting to the endgame.

The is actually a pretty common opinion in these parts, though my personal opinion is exactly the opposite: I think that the showrunners tend to be wildly underrated as writers. To my mind they're doing some of the most careful and sophisticated writing on TV (I mean, they focus each episode on a central theme that unites every storyline, which is something 90 percent of television shows don't even attempt!), and most of the criticism they face has to do with what they choose to write about, not how good they are at writing it. And that doesn't make the criticisms invalid, by any means (certainly if you were looking for a crackerjack political thriller the show has not delivered that), but to me it's the difference between criticizing a pie-maker because he's bad at making pies, and criticizing him because you don't like pies and thought he promised to bake a cake.

[jjj]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, another funny for me was when Stan and Adderholt were discussing Oleg's registration for the class on Urban Regional Relocation or something like that!  The look on Stan's face!  He knows.  NO Way. Will anyone actually check to see if he really attends that seminar?  Sounds riveting.  

Because that is his cover story for the visa, yes, I'll bet that Arkady is requiring Oleg to attend the classes!  

[CaliCheeseSucks]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:33 AM, Dev F said:

but to me it's the difference between criticizing a pie-maker because he's bad at making pies, and criticizing him because you don't like pies and thought he promised to bake a cake.

I totally disagree. It's the difference between criticizing a pie-maker because he's bad at making pies, and criticizing him because you notice his pies are caught up in style over substance. The style may sell it and substance may still make the end result 'passable' but it's obvious they're not finding a proper balance between the two.

Edited April 7, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks

[Tighthead]

Not sure if this has been specifically addressed. 

Anyone else find the x-ray in the stall routine a little hard to believe?

Hockey courier sits down. Takes a fair bit of time while unsuspecting partner waits patiently. A guy in the next stall is taking even more time. Courier flushes the toilet while seated and doesn’t get up. By the time he is done the other guy is still seated.  

Wouldn't the partner get a little suspicious when this happened after ever flight?

As an aside, Stan’s indifference to the guy’s heartache was well written and acted. An awkward man-hug is the worst. 

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The is actually a pretty common opinion in these parts, though my personal opinion is exactly the opposite: I think that the showrunners tend to be wildly underrated as writers. To my mind they're doing some of the most careful and sophisticated writing on TV (I mean, they focus each episode on a central theme that unites every storyline, which is something 90 percent of television shows don't even attempt!), and most of the criticism they face has to do with what they choose to write about, not how good they are at writing it. And that doesn't make the criticisms invalid, by any means (certainly if you were looking for a crackerjack political thriller the show has not delivered that), but to me it's the difference between criticizing a pie-maker because he's bad at making pies, and criticizing him because you don't like pies and thought he promised to bake a cake.

I see your point and don't disagree with it.  I've loved these writers for a long time, but I detested LAST season, just hated it.

That one was more like, instead of serving me a pie, they wanted to show me how the wheat grew and how that would eventually be flour, and then tell me about the randoms that ground the flour, and next up!  Let's go watch how cherries grow!  First up with that?  Did the deep hole, and throw a bunch of fertilizer in there and plant the tree...

By that time, I've gone somewhere else for my damn pie.  Or made one myself.

28 minutes ago, jjj said:

Because that is his cover story for the visa, yes, I'll bet that Arkady is requiring Oleg to attend the classes!  

Why wouldn't Oleg attend the classes?  He's only got one job there, contact with Philip, and probably the most dangerous part of his mission, somehow communicate with Arkady back in the USSR without the KGB finding out.

Also, Oleg is not just hiding from the FBI, he's hiding from the KGB.  He's not going to put a foot wrong that he can possibly avoid.  The FBI would arrest him, the KGB will kill him, and possibly some of his family as well.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Umbelina

[Trillian]

I very recently had a conversation,in a social setting, with a Family Doctor who related a conversation he had recently had with the Palliative Care doctor who had taken on one of his patients.  Family Doc expressed surprise that Palliative Care Doc told him that they were rationing pain meds , rather than “making him happy” in his (the patient’s) last days/weeks. We may want to believe that medical personnel will happily push drugs on us at the end to make us comfortable, but, according to the doctor with whom I spoke, it isn’t necessarily true.  So maybe Elizabeth-the-Palliative-care-nurse plot isn’t beyond the realm.  It seems to be a thing, as cruel as it appears at first glance  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Apologies if this makes you feel old. Are filmstrips reels of movie film, like what you would play on old projection equipment? As for her familiarity, I would assume it would have been records or cassette tapes in a music/ music appreciation class in high school. 

LOL. Yes, it was played on a projector, but it wasn't a movie. It was just one screen, then the sound would make a big BOOP sound and the person manning the projector would turn it forward to the next slide. It's like a step more primitive than watching a movie and Paige would have seen them in elementary school.

2 hours ago, Trillian said:

I have a somewhat different take on Elizabeth’s view of Paige than the (excellent - thank you!) recap and many other posters:  when Elizabeth says that she herself was a fast learner, she wasn’t bragging. She’s an exceptional spy who has trained other agents and she KNOWS that Paige is not good at this.

I really hope that's what they're doing but this storyline makes me nervous. Because to me it seems like they're laying in a lot of interesting stuff in that direction but when they talk about the show they seem to think it's just awesome that Paige is dressing better and is a spy and that's so cool (ignoring all the ways that Paige and Elizabeth are not the same). But then the show doesn't seem to be doing that so far, so I don't know.

Like when Elizabeth tells Philip about Paige's mistake I can believe she herself isn't sure why she's saying what she's saying. She wants to reassure herself by telling Philip that Paige is just so good at some of this stuff (even though we've literally not seen her do anything where what she's doing is obviously something that Paige as an individual has a talent for). But then she feels the need to float the mistake--I think maybe to make herself even more reassured. What's a simple name mistake, really? And Philip agrees with her because he figures that's what she wants...but maybe it doesn't reassure her because he doesn't really know what happened and she still has doubts. Hence her vague reference to how she was far far more along than Paige at this stage. Plus if she's thinking she'll be dead soon she has very good reason to think that Paige is not going to be ready in her lifetime. But what can she even do now?

I seriously hope that we're seeing Elizabeth's fears about this bubbling to the surface, but I don't know. If the show's ending around the time of the summit, Paige might not have a chance to fail or succeed. I think it would be terrible if the show tried to end on some cliffhanger as if we should still be afraid of Paige placed in the US, but that seems to be tonally off for the show and it would just be silly for her at this point. So the story really shouldn't be about Paige proving herself at all. It's all about Elizabeth and Philip thinking about whether this is really right for her---just as it's always been. But so far it's not so clear what's going on there.

2 hours ago, jjj said:

I think she wants to talk about a lot of things with *someone*, and really has *no one*.  I thought she was just tossing a bone to Philip to quiet him, and I don't even think "she got a name wrong" was even part of any real incident, just something innocuous she could say to not completely shut out Philip.  Not that she was taking his feelings into account, but that she wanted to be left alone:  "Here, I'll tell  you this, now go away, because you have a crumb."  (a false crumb!)  

It was part of the incident last week. The guy Elizabeth killed. Paige reported her name to Elizabeth and before Elizabeth killed him she noted that Paige had botched the name a lot. Given the context that was pretty important.

1 hour ago, jjj said:

Did Paige actually refer to filmstrips?  I'd be so surprised if GWU was showing filmstrips in the later 1980s. And I have to go back for Stan's reference to the alligator shoes, which I completely missed. 

No, I referred to them saying that Paige would probably have been introduced to Tchaikovsky back in grade school.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Why on earth they let Philip sit on his ass and not take him out is the one that puzzles me.

Probably because he's a pacifier for Elizabeth. He's her comfort goat. Or was at the time he retired. It's surprising they're not demanding him back if they're so strapped. But then, the show probably realized they had to choose between the KGB forcing him back in and Oleg sucking him in because it's the right thing to do, and the latter's obviously better for Philip.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I think Elizabeth is a bit worried- hence her mentioning the mistake at all and noting she learned fast. But I don’t think she’s faced what I think the reality may be: Paige isn’t a superspy and she isn’t being trained properly either. Recipe for disaster. I tend to think she wanted some reassurance from Philip. But it’s possible that was a rather clumsy attempt to discuss things. 

We've seen Philip before adjust and adjust himself to give Elizabeth the reassurance she needs. But to do it she needs to be able to make it clear what she means and here she maybe didn't even know herself. And even if she did, she was keeping too much secret to make it clear. So if somebody was going to say this was maybe a problem it had to be her and she's too scared to ever say such a thing. It's not even just her fears about Paige, it's her usual inability to ever admit she was wrong about anything. In this case, not wrong about Paige being a great natural spy (since that wasn't ever something she claimed) but that it was a bad idea to bring her into this.

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

Nobody would use filmstrips in college--it's an elementary school thing.  That's ridiculous.  (As an aside, one of the most traumatic things that I've ever witnessed--granted, I've had an easy life--was in second grade, when the kid turning the filmstrip somehow put a crayon on top of the projector, and it exploded into his eye.  He was ok, but the teacher rushed him out of the room, leaving the rest of us in stunned silence.)

Yes, that's why I mentioned film strips. I was referring to Claudia "introducing" Tchaikovsky to Paige and saying that he's such a standard, child-friendly composer that Paige could very easily have learned about him in elementary school, which at her age would still have had filmstrips. (I'm almost exactly Paige's age so to me the whole idea called up an image of that.)

[SusanSunflower]

someone having excruciating pain an hour before their next dose is due (a very long time) may well benefit from a carefully controlled drip (same milligrams/hour/day, but creating a stable blood level) and/or microdosing on demand (now called Patient Controlled Anesthesia where the patient can push the button on the IV machine for a micro-burst)...  I'm trying to remember when patient-controlled liquid oral micro-dosing became acceptable but it was in the 1980's as I recall, when control of narcotics was loosened. (It has now tightened completely and that 1980's loosening is sometimes blamed for opioid crisis -- I'm doubtful) 

One real problem with the every-4 or 6-hour schedule is the peaks and valleys and patients whose demand for more medicine is because they want to zone out (which is sometimes when an agreement to damn the torpedos, "let them go" ... but that won't work for Elizabeth.  However, another big danger of peak and valley dosing is the respiratory suppression of peak blood level, particularly in someone who is not moving around.   (Since the 80's there have been vast "improvements" wrt slow-release orals ... I think not available then) 

This artist/patient appears very young and likely has very good heart and lungs and could live a very long time in a drug-induced coma (while an older person or someone with heart/lung compromise would not).  Elizabeth would do well to recognized that this woman might well jump out a window or hang herself from the shower rod  or slit her wrists. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[jjj]

It really took me a while to understand what Elizabeth and Claudia were talking about, regarding Erica the artist, right after Elizabeth "offered" to "help" with euthanasia.  So, now I see that Elizabeth has done something to make the little extra morphine supply less effective, and now that the husband is speeding up the doses, Erica will be in more pain because the regular doses will not be as effective.  Claudia is just as evil as Elizabeth in this conversation:

E: "I guess she just would have drifted off."

C: "It's not usually that easy."

E: "Well, now she's really gonna suffer."

C: "You just have to keep her alive through the summit."

Edited April 6, 2018 by jjj

[SusanSunflower]

It's ridiculous -- Elizabeth is only one person in the care team ... and with this plan, the patient could easily end up dead or in the hospital ... either way, oops, Elizabeth has to pack up and go home 

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've been to DC quite a few times, but, I've never noticed hills like that?  Anyone know where that was? (Near Paige's apt.)

It's not filmed in DC. The location likely is Brooklyn, as mentioned above. There ARE hills in DC, in the Upper NW area (hence the "upper" designation and the fact that the street numbers go up the further west you go). The National Cathedral sits atop the highest hill in the city and, coincidentally for our discussion, there are two main avenues leading up toward the Cathedral from downtown DC. One is Massachusetts Ave where the Naval Observatory entrance is, and the other is Wisconsin Ave where the Soviet embassy entrance is located on a hillside leading up from Georgetown.  

Edited April 6, 2018 by RedHawk

[jjj]

5 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It's ridiculous -- Elizabeth is only one person in the care team ... and with this plan, the patient could easily end up dead or in the hospital ... either way, oops, Elizabeth has to pack up and go home 

Oh, yes, this is a plan with many holes.  But Elizabeth had to find out how they were going to commit euthanasia, which most nurses would not ask.  And then Elizabeth thwarted that somehow.  Not hard, just find the little morphine bottle with the extra doses and replace the contents.  The biggest problem now would be that another nurse would kill her. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

Just now, jjj said:

Oh, yes, this is a plan with many holes.  But Elizabeth had to find out how they were going to commit euthanasia, which most nurses would not ask.  And then Elizabeth thwarted that somehow.  Not hard, just find the little morphine bottle with the extra doses.  

Some nurses might. 

I think the amount of times nurses and doctors have "helped" patients in pain to die is vastly underestimated.  Then, and now.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Some nurses might. 

I think the amount of times nurses and doctors have "helped" patients in pain to die is vastly underestimated.  Then, and now.

Agree!  But if they think there is a stash of morphine, Elizabeth has eliminated that option. 

[SusanSunflower]

There was a protocol where I worked ... it wasn't "euthanasia" ... it was "letting nature take it's course and NOT withholding medication to keep the patient alive.  The administration of IV fluids was considered obligatory ... eventually, iirc, blood work and electrolyte supplementation may have been added (I don't remember outcome of that lobbying). 

eta:  Questions of euthansia equivalent were vigorously denied BECAUSE it was (and is) illegal ... so we have careful documentation of continuation of care (iv fluid, vital signs, turning, baths, bed changes) to dispel that accusation ...  

There's also the matter of "coroner's cases" and who signs the death certificate and testifies to "cause of death" ... it's not taken lightly and can have very serious ramifications if the death is challenged by a dissenting/suspicious/unhappy family member.  (Again the reasons for lots of documentation and "necessary criteria" to be met ) 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[FormerMod-a1]

57 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

Not sure if this has been specifically addressed. 

Anyone else find the x-ray in the stall routine a little hard to believe?

Hockey courier sits down. Takes a fair bit of time while unsuspecting partner waits patiently. A guy in the next stall is taking even more time. Courier flushes the toilet while seated and doesn’t get up. By the time he is done the other guy is still seated.  

Wouldn't the partner get a little suspicious when this happened after ever flight?

As an aside, Stan’s indifference to the guy’s heartache was well written and acted. An awkward man-hug is the worst. 

I noticed that when hockey courier came out of the stall he handed the bag/package to his partner to wash his hands.  Why wouldn't have the partner offered, or instinctively reached out, to take the back before going into the stall?  That's really the only thing that struck me as odd about the whole thing until you posted this.  To the bolded part - that could be explained with courtesy flushes. 

[Dev F]

4 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I noticed that when hockey courier came out of the stall he handed the bag/package to his partner to wash his hands.  Why wouldn't have the partner offered, or instinctively reached out, to take the back before going into the stall?

They mentioned last season that the courier who goes into the stall is required to take the bag with him, presumably so the other courier is never in a position to pass it off to someone unobserved.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

I just remembered I wanted to shout out to that great line of the General's.  When Elizabeth says she cares about her country and it's not doing well and he says, "Well, who's fault is THAT?"

It's one of those lines that effortlessly underlines the central conflict. It calls back to Philip's response to Aleksei's rant--"Why can't we grow our own wheat?" The reformers are openly trying to deal with internal problems in the country that are causing problems. Whether or not their ideas will work, they're trying to take responsibility. The hardliners and conservatives prefer to focus everyone toward the outside enemy even if they're bankrupting themselves in an arms race.

But also it's an especially good line for anyone to throw at Elizabeth because pretty much all her misery right now she chose. The Centre is of course responsible for overworking her, but she still refused to quit. She doesn't like working alone? Who told Philip he should quit because she didn't need him to spy? She's stressed about Paige? Who was so set on Paige becoming a spy? Her life is nothing but spywork? Who's sneering at anything non-spycraft in her life?

If the guy said something like that to Philip, especially in previous seasons, it would land differently because he'd already be blaming himself. Henry's line about the guy being *his* client is only telling Philip the hard truth he knows--he even admits Stavos told him the same thing (giving Henry a chance to cheer him up with his impression). But Elizabeth goes through her life always claiming she doesn't have a choice, that she's doing what everyone should do. She doesn't even seem to feel she should be thinking through this current assignment that's part of a coup. Elizabeth really needs people to ask her "Who's fault is that?" as often as possible. It also calls back to the whole thing about who's responsible for the bad things they do.

[FormerMod-a1]

1 minute ago, Dev F said:

They mentioned last season that the courier who goes into the stall is required to take the bag with him, presumably so the other courier is never in a position to pass it off to someone unobserved.

 

But he handed it off to the other guy to wash his hands.  Seems like it could be taken that way just as easily - whether someone mugged the partner, or the partner simply ran, or any number of other things.

[magemaud]

I thought Henry got a scholarship to go to that prep school for high school. Fast forward 5 years later and he’s STILL in high school? 

 

Oops, my bad. It was a three year time jump, not five

Edited April 6, 2018 by magemaud
corrected myself

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, magemaud said:

I thought Henry got a scholarship to go to that prep school for high school. Fast forward 5 years later and he’s STILL in high school? 

He got a scholarship to go to the prep school starting in 9th grade--he hadn't started high school in season 5. Three years later he would be a junior at the same prep school.

[crgirl412]

1 hour ago, Trillian said:

I very recently had a conversation,in a social setting, with a Family Doctor who related a conversation he had recently had with the Palliative Care doctor who had taken on one of his patients.  Family Doc expressed surprise that Palliative Care Doc told him that they were rationing pain meds , rather than “making him happy” in his (the patient’s) last days/weeks. We may want to believe that medical personnel will happily push drugs on us at the end to make us comfortable, but, according to the doctor with whom I spoke, it isn’t necessarily true.  So maybe Elizabeth-the-Palliative-care-nurse plot isn’t beyond the realm.  It seems to be a thing, as cruel as it appears at first glance  

I "hope" it was only due to the opioid shortage going on now- and that is even crappy.  There is no other [good] reason they would ration pain meds.

 

Article on opioid shortage: 

https://www.statnews.com/2018/03/15/hospitals-opioid-shortage/

[SunnyBeBe]

For those who are interested, I posted where Rhys and Russell are supposed to be guests later tonight on Americans In The Media thread.  I don't expect spoilers, but, what a treat!

[magemaud]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. I thought he would be going there the next school year 

[Dev F]

28 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

But he handed it off to the other guy to wash his hands.  Seems like it could be taken that way just as easily - whether someone mugged the partner, or the partner simply ran, or any number of other things.

The concern isn't for the physical security of the bag; either of the couriers could be mugged or run away with it at any time. But if that happened, at least one courier would be able to report on what happened and the Russians could either recover the stolen property or take precautions to prevent similar losses in the future. And certainly a courier running away with the bag isn't a long-term problem, since he can't do it more than once. The bathroom protocols are to prevent any secret tampering with the bag, which would allow outside entities to access the bag repeatedly over an indefinite span of time. That dramatically increases the chances that they'll find something inside it you don't want them to find, and that they'll figure out how to circumvent the protective protocols that expose film when the bag is opened, etc.