S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[SusanSunflower]

I think part of the problem with Paige is that she is still grossly under-written and under-developed as a character.  Do we even know what she is studying.... in preparation for - again -- what? 

She should probably be getting some formal education/deep indoctrination from the KGB (either directly or through a front) in history, foreign affairs and likely a language (if she not already taking that intensively in college).  Russian might be helpful and believable depending on what she's studying/majoring in college.  Similarly, assuming her college is related to some intended future path (???), she should be socializing and making contacts for her future education (master's/phd/internships).  All that is left vague, making her spy-training seem like some on-the-job training and both Elizabeth and Claudia seem rather like babysitters.  This makes Paige's semi-casual/not professional demeanor more "understandable" because the environment is not rigorous. --  but doesn't pass the smell test in terms of ensuring that Paige (who squealed to Pastor Tim) will not accidentally jeopardize two of the Centre's most valuable assets -- by some indiscretion by chance observed.  (Both P&E's relationship with other operatives would be strained if they knew "mother and daughter", but I suspect some "special relationship" would be intuited on some level -- burr under the saddle distraction.) We can guess that Elizabeth never returned Paige's ID to her, much less explained why it was no longer an issue.  Is the surveillance machine still in operation temporarily without Elizabeth and Paige or are have they moved onto other things.  Would Paige wonder why? (do feel cheated to have no follow-up on last-week's-grisly-murder... but I think this week's death may turn up suspicion 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[teddysmom]

Just now, SusanSunflower said:

I think part of the problem with Paige is that she is still grossly under-written and under-developed as a character.  Do we even know what she is studying.... in preparation for - again -- what? 

She should probably be getting some formal education/deep indoctrination from the KGB (either directly or through a front) in history, foreign affairs and likely a language (if she not already taking that intensively in college). 

Exactly.  I didn't know Tradecraft was a subject you could major in at college.  Oh look I bought "Espionage for Dummies", and "Honey Traps: A Beginners Guide" 

Also, stop wearing that stupid tam Paige. That is not a disguise. 

[Bannon]

It would have been great if the writers had given Paige, upon doing a double take of her mother's face covered in the general's hair, blood, skull, and brains, the additional line of, "Eww...gross...".

[teddysmom]

5 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

We can guess that Elizabeth never returned Paige's ID to her, much less explained why it was no longer an issue. 

"Mom it's so weird that cute Navy guy never called me."

"I bet he has a sore throat, it's going around". 

Just now, Bannon said:

Eww...gross...".

Or "that escalated quickly, That got out of hand real fast". 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Exactly.  I didn't know Tradecraft was a subject you could major in at college.  Oh look I bought "Espionage for Dummies", and "Honey Traps: A Beginners Guide" 

Also, stop wearing that stupid tam Paige. That is not a disguise. 

She likes watching Mary Tyler Moore reruns, and intends to toss the tam into the air, halfway across Pennsylvania Ave., in the final episode.

[SusanSunflower]

Given the times, America's fascination with espionage continued to be intense (best-sellers, blockbuster movies), so Paige's book purchases would not be suspect, particularly if it somehow aligned with her studies.  (I think E's concern was dumb and likely a mommy control issue). As a psych major, I became fascinated by the the acquisition of sexual identity back in the 1980's.  Much of what I read (including some purchases) for a couple of years would have "intrigued" someone nosing around and likely make them suspect I had "issues" ... I was actually interested in the physiopsychology and brain/body connections. 

In college, I learned to only chose topics for research that I was genuinely interested in (experimental psychology).  There's nothing special about Paige's interest in espionage either as a hobby-interest as research for papers. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[teddysmom]

Is it me or does Keri Russell not know how to hold a cigarette. It always seems a little off.  I've never smoked but both my parents did and I never saw my mother hold a cigarette like she does. 

I've been wondering if she's trying to give herself cancer. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I do like that the guy didn't give Elizabeth what she wanted.

Same here. That was oddly satisfying.

So, in news that is not super shocking, Paige is a pretty crappy spy. I think the KGB really backed the wrong horse on this one.

Paige kind of forced their hand, though, by figuring out that Philip and Elizabeth were spies. It's interesting they decided to approve her training as a field operative, because she's TERRIBLE. I'd have thought Paige could be trained in other ways that were more suited to her personality and skills, but maybe that's to come.

Also: All of E's disguises this week wore glasses. That seems to me to be bad? Shouldn't she be mixing it up more? Or is it because glasses make a (woman's) face forgettable?

With the different wigs, Elizabeth looks pretty different. Think of her hospice-nurse look vs. State Dept. employee. I don't know if I'd connect them to the same person. 

[teddysmom]

1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said:

(I think E's concern was dumb). 

me too.   The woman who stabbed a member of the US Navy in the throat in public is worried her daughter bought a book about spying at a 2nd hand book store. 

The same woman who has to get home with someone's brains all over her face. and hope a cop doesn't pull up next to her at a stop light. 

"uh maam?  Have you been killing zombies or did your pizza explode? "

[SusanSunflower]

Fun Fact:  In 1987, Aldrich Ames (already a 25+ year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency), had already been spying for the KGB for 2 years (arrested in 1994) 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Fun Fact:  In 1987, Aldrich Ames (already a 25+ year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency), had already been spying for the KGB for 2 years (arrested in 1994) 

What this show has glossed over, because it doesn't provide as much drama, is that the KGB's greatest triumphs came not via sophisticated recruitment, but rather when traitorous Americans would walk into Soviet embassies or consulates without prompting, usually seeking fairly trivial amounts of money.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, shura said:

Wait, so Arkady sent Oleg Burov, the man he knows the FBI knows was/is KGB, under his real name he had to declare at the port of entry, to go meet the most prized Directorate S assets? In the hopes that the FBI would not watch him? Good plan.

Not because he didn't think they wouldn't watch him. He knew they would. Arkady was more worried about the KGB watching him and Oleg is the person he knows who a) is onboard to take risks to erase corruption b) is able to go to the US quickly because of his dad's connections and c) isn't in the KGB currently.

 

10 hours ago, Erin9 said:

I hadn’t noticed, but good  point @sistermagpie at how much better Henry was at reading his father’s mood than Paige was her mother’s. She can’t tell Elizabeth is falling apart in person. Henry can tell his dad is upset over the phone.

 

Yeah, I don't know how significant it's supposed to be--like maybe it's just that Philip needed somebody to say a line that laid it out. But it made so much sense to me in the larger context. Philip and Henry prioritize personal relationships. They have no other agenda in talking to each other than connecting. They take an interest in the minutia of each other's life because they love the other person. 

But also it shows that although throughout a lot of the show being on the "inside" of the secret bonds people and leaves people like Henry out, there's a point where the opposite happens. At least it does when you have only people like Claudia, Paige and Elizabeth where the goal comes first. Philip and Henry are limited to talking about less important things because Henry doesn't know about his father's real dilemma, but in this case it didn't really matter. 

Also can't help but note the continuation of that different way the kids relate to adults. Paige is ostensibly the grown up here, the one in the badass world of spying. Yet she's still the person all the adults talk about as someone who's being taken care of. Henry's living away at school and has transitioned into a more adult relationship with his father. Not entirely adult, of course. But their relationship was not one where Henry was asking Philip questions about the world and Philip was answering or lecturing him. Henry felt free to express concern and give Philip advice that was mildly critical.

10 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

And fire the guy for losing one client? You people are harsh! Besides, the point was this marked the beginning of the end of travel agency being a viable middle-class career. Philip is going down whether he becomes a real American or not. And who was Stavos? I know they've shown in the past that some of the employees at the agency are also spies - was Stavos one of them?

11 hours ago, jjj said:

Stavos has always been the most visible employee there. I thought this was the end of Philip pretending he could just disappear into the travel agency and everything would go on fine.

10 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

I don't understand why everyone is so bothered that Elizabeth is neglecting Henry, who is healthy and doing well, but no one minds that Philip is neglecting Paige, who is going to be psychologically destroyed at best and murdered at worst. Why is no one mad at HIM for neglecting his child? And even after an explicit conversation between two characters that show Paige is doing well as a spy, we still insist on seeing her as incompetent?

Because he's not neglecting Paige at all. She's choosing to do this spy thing and he's not allowed to be part of that.  He let her choose for herself. There's no reason to think he doesn't still care about her as obsessively as he did before and he probably tries to talk to her seriously whenever he can. Philip's still the character more focused on the family. Elizabeth is pretty much planning her death now, again, handing off Paige to Claudia. That talk about suicide I think is supposed to reflect her own thinking about not making it out of this mission among other things. But it shows where she is in her head that for the first time, when considering her own death, she turns to Claudia as the one to take care of Paige rather than Philip.

The difference with Henry isn't that Elizabeth isn't calling him every week or whatever, imo. It's that we know that Elizabeth doesn't relate well to people outside the Cause. Philip has never had trouble relating to Paige. He can still relate to her as a spy even if he's not currently working. He's not going to stop making that effort. Elizabeth always had more trouble understanding Henry. I think when Paige feels like Philip doesn't understand her it's very different. It's about Paige's uniqueness that she has told her father about multiple times and he always listens. With Henry there's much more of a danger of the relationship just becoming more and more shallow and then nonexistent because Elizabeth is just accepting that he'll never be one of them. 

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Also, now that we know Claudia likes classical music, we know that everyone on this show has a hobby or interest in something besides spying and communism, except Elizabeth. 

 

She probably does have more going on than Elizabeth but I don't know if that was really a hobby we were seeing there. She's introducing Paige to her idea of "Why Russia is Great 101."  Ironically we know that when she went home briefly she didn't fit in and couldn't relate to her family. I think Claudia much prefers Russia when she's far away from it and it's all about her own youth.

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Is the goal this season to have Liz kill one schlub per episode? Does Paige ever read the papers, and sees that the Navy guy who took her school i.d. was murdered? Does she figure out that Mom is running the D.C. franchise of Murder Inc.?

 

Yeah, I'm really sick of Elizabeth killing all these guys so handily. Martial arts don't make you Batwoman. Hopefully they will not try to go this route with Paige because as unbelievable as it is with Elizabeth to physically always win, at least KR can sell it somehow. I don't know if too many other teeny tiny skinny actresses could.

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There is a lot of criticism of Paige not doing a good job as a spy but I think you're right with this post. Elizabeth is trying to shield Paige from the worst parts of the spy game and because of that Paige is not prepared for this kind of situation. If Elizabeth wants to prepare Paige she'll have to tell her the truth about everything or else not have her go on these missions. After all, the plan for the second generation program was that Paige would be able to get some government job that would give her access to information. So she wouldn't even have to do these missions with Elizabeth.

Yeah, when she was lying to her I wondered why she actually wasn't telling her the truth. Wouldn't she do that for someone else? Wasn't it laid out for her? At first I figured it was all drawing her into the Centre and making them seem good, but I think it's also that Elizabeth has some buried shame about what she does and doesn't want Paige doing it too. She's clinging to this fantasy that Paige doesn't have to know about the stuff she does because she would never have to do anything bad. But in only two episodes we see how much lying that entails. If you think what you're doing is so great, why do you have to lie about it? Why don't you want her doing this stuff? She hasn't even dealt with the fact that Paige is actually risking herself more than Elizabeth in some ways because she's cutting herself off from her country by being a traitor. And the worst thing is Paige honestly doesn't seem to get the seriousness of that at all. (I like that Elizabeth even described herself as cut off from all other agents here.)

I believe it about the character--I think they've built Paige from the start to be that way, but it's still shocking to see somebody who's spying for what she imagines to be righteous reasons but never gives a thought to that issue. She doesn't have any love or loyalty for her country at all. I find that really creepy in her in ways I don't find creepy in the hockey player and his wife. Maybe because their motivations change the whole thing.

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I am actually bored with the travel agency story line. I liked the scene with Philip and Jeremy, it was well acted and you could feel the awkwardness of the situation, but that's not really the Philip I enjoy watching. All his moping and indecisiveness almost look like what they did to Stan's character in Season 2. I hope they don't drag this out.

 

I appreciate that the show almost has to have Philip do this in this episode because it just wouldn't be IC for him to immediately jump on Oleg's message. They have to get him from Point A to Point C by going through Point B. The conversation with Henry was interesting enough and was speaking directly to that. But I want that final push for him to come soon. I'm sure they knew the storyline would be pretty boring, but they needed to establish that Philip's issue here was in losing this personal client. 

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Is there a real point to dealing with Stan’s Russian assets? I get the parallel about marital trouble, but it doesn’t seem necessary to me. Seems like the airtime could go to more important  things. I can think of many things I’d like to see covered. 

I think they're going to be very important. Their marital problems are going to have long term consequences--probably this will reveal them to the USSR, for instance, and that puts Stan back in conflict directly with Elizabeth again.

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It just occurred to me; how did Liz explain to Paige that she didn't need to go on the date to get her ID back? "Paige, honey, the capitalist pig who stole your ID, in order to have anti proletariat sex with you, tripped and impaled his throat on shrubbery branches, so you don't need to meet him. I found your ID on the sidewalk, here it is"?

There was never any question of her doing that. Elizabeth just told her the ID being lost and with the guy forever was fine. No reason Paige wouldn't believe her since that was basically the calculation she herself made when the guy walked off.

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Paige lacks experience.  Even season one we saw Elizabeth And Philip as long experienced well trained super spies.  Paige is neither.  Which is kinda interesting.  She isn’t stupid.  She just lacks Elizabeth single minded purpose (unable to even fora moment give in a draw a stupid bowl) nd her long and complicated training.  Of course Paige is going to have a lot of missteps.

I don't think saying she "just lacks experience" cuts it because we had several seasons of Hans being equally inexperienced without missteps on this level. (When he did have one he faced the consequences for it.) Marilyn and the other guy have also not been given these kinds of issues even when they were also new (Philip asked if they were okay after the murder of the bug guy.) It's not that she's fundamentally stupid--there's plenty of careers she could have where she'd be a perfectly functioning adult. 

To me the train wreck coming is that on one hand Elizabeth is too personally invested in Paige being good at this stuff and telling herself that everybody has these missteps. Even telling herself this when the missteps are happening on actual jobs rather than in training. And then on Paige's side, unless I'm completely picking up on stuff they don't intend, there's the problem that she just isn't in the same mindset as her parents at all. She's still the same kid on the same personal journey she's been throughout the show, trying to find her own identity and get mom's approval etc. and not really understanding the reality of the world.

Iow, both Elizabeth and Paige are treating this as some personal coming-of-age blossoming that's all about her personal growth. It's about Paige no longer being "fragile" and having something bigger than herself that brings meaning to her life (like it has to Elizabeth's!). It's her getting confidence and understanding her mom and being one of the heroes and all that. Meanwhile the actual situation is that nobody, least of all the Centre, really gives a shit about this. The personal attention they pay to Paige is in the service of keeping her happy and working for them. I think if asked Paige would probably say she knows she doesn't matter in comparison to the larger Cause, but she doesn't really know what that means. It's just like she was in the church--she admired Jesus for sacrificing himself for humanity but her entire relationship with the church made her the center of attention.

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Actually I thought he was looking at the slip as if there wasn't much money left in the account.  It is clear that the travel business is going on the decline.  Perhaps he ought to start his own self-defense school or sell spy gadgets.

Am I missing something? How is it in decline when it's gotten much bigger? I mean, I know that eventually the business really changes but in the last 3 years they've become much bigger and also become so strapped that he's worried. I thought the whole story about those clients was strictly personal. Philip cared about losing them because they were longtime clients with whom he had a personal relationship and they dumped him because he handed them off to someone else. Like the way Elizabeth (and Paige) are now in the hands of the Centre. And Russia is in the hands of Claudia and Elizabeth and the hardliners. The Motherland needs his help.

[Bannon]

In 1987, travel agencies were still part of a very thriving industry. It was really post 1995 before the internet decimated the industry, forcing survivors to either become niche participants, or humongous corporate travel managers. 

[MaryWebGirl]

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Is Stan working on Marion Barry?

I wondered that too! I just did some quick googling and the infamous video of him smoking crack was filmed in January 1990, but was the result of an FBI investigation. So maybe Stan is helping to lay the groundwork for that.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In 1987, travel agencies were still part of a very thriving industry. It was really post 1995 before the internet decimated the industry, forcing survivors to either become niche participants, or humongous corporate travel managers. 

Agree.  At my job, we were using a travel agency for air travel well past 2000.  It was more unusual to call an airline to make your own reservation.  And the travel agency had to PRINT OUT THE AIRLINE TICKETS and deliver them!  It was a different world in terms of air travel! 

[Moose135]

38 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I didn't know Tradecraft was a subject you could major in at college.  Oh look I bought "Espionage for Dummies", and "Honey Traps: A Beginners Guide" 

Hudson University offers those courses...

[teddysmom]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She's introducing Paige to her idea of "Why Russia is Great 101." 

I like Tschaikovsky but it doesn't make me want to be a traitor/spy. 

What's next,  a lecture on the value of beets?  Take her to a Yakof Smirnoff comedy show? 

"I like American women. They do things sexually Russian girls never dream of doing - like showering." (that is an actual quote of his) 

Bread lines are great place to meet men.    Paige will be number one hot girl when she goes to Moscow.  Be sure and look up Martha, she's living large. 

[Dev F]

7 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I wondered that too! I just did some quick googling and the infamous video of him smoking crack was filmed in January 1990, but was the result of an FBI investigation. So maybe Stan is helping to lay the groundwork for that.

He's definitely working on Barry. The "alligator shoes" talk is a reference to a 1987 Barry scandal: "A federal investigation here may point to a large-scale city contracting scandal, or it may determine only if two pairs of alligator shoes were given to Mayor Marion Barry, who once again is embroiled in what he calls a politically motivated campaign to discredit him and other Democratic mayors."

[teddysmom]

6 minutes ago, jjj said:

Agree.  At my job, we were using a travel agency for air travel well past 2000.  It was more unusual to call an airline to make your own reservation.  And the travel agency had to PRINT OUT THE AIRLINE TICKETS and deliver them!  It was a different world in terms of air travel! 

Yep I remember this.  You never called the airline because the travel agents had better access to flight availability and could get seating assignments. 

[dubbel zout]

Airline tickets! Remember when they were multipart with carbons? /very old

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I like Tschaikovsky but it doesn't make me want to be a traitor/spy. 

What's next,  a lecture on the value of beets?  Take her to a Yakof Smirnoff comedy show? 

"I like American women. They do things sexually Russian girls never dream of doing - like showering." (that is an actual quote of his) 

Bread lines are great place to meet men.    Paige will be number one hot girl when she goes to Moscow.  Be sure and look up Martha, she's living large. 

I can't wait until Paige nods her head in agreement, in response to the proposition that toilet paper availability is extremely overrated!

5 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Yep I remember this.  You never called the airline because the travel agents had better access to flight availability and could get seating assignments. 

Booking hotels, in a city that you were unfamiliar with, without using a travel agent, was a nightmare.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Bannon

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Airline tickets! Remember when they were multipart with carbons? /very old

I was going to mention that, also!  Not sure how ancient that would sound -- but well into the 1990s I was getting the carbon copy tickets!

And we never paid the travel agency-- they got a percentage from the airlines and cruises, etc. So Philip didn't need to cut a "deal" to keep his customer.  

[Tetraneutron]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, when she was lying to her I wondered why she actually wasn't telling her the truth. Wouldn't she do that for someone else? Wasn't it laid out for her? At first I figured it was all drawing her into the Centre and making them seem good, but I think it's also that Elizabeth has some buried shame about what she does and doesn't want Paige doing it too. She's clinging to this fantasy that Paige doesn't have to know about the stuff she does because she would never have to do anything bad. But in only two episodes we see how much lying that entails. If you think what you're doing is so great, why do you have to lie about it? Why don't you want her doing this stuff? She hasn't even dealt with the fact that Paige is actually risking herself more than Elizabeth in some ways because she's cutting herself off from her country by being a traitor. And the worst thing is Paige honestly doesn't seem to get the seriousness of that at all. (I like that Elizabeth even described herself as cut off from all other agents here.)

Because part of Elizabeth's job is propaganda and recruitment. We've seen her CONSISTENTLY lie to new recruits about the nature of the job and the ideology behind it. She landed Gregory by pretending to be a civil rights activist and hiding or lying about all the unsavoury stuff they did and introducing it gradually. And she lied about the USSR's not-great record in that area. Same with Hans and apartheid. Then once they're in deeper, she peels off layers of the veil. Same with Paige. She doesn't start with the horrible stuff right away but introduces it gradually. 

And thestuff about being cut off from other agents was also a lie. Not only does Elizabeth have Norm and Marilyn and all her other recruits, she had Leigh Anne and Emmet, fellow spies with whom she hung out socially. 

I like how this episode addressed that Paige will work for the CIA or something and have a safer spy path than Elizabeth does. But she probably still needs to understand field work, to be deeply devoted, to know what they do. And while she wouldn't be murdering people if she had a job like Stan does, she would definitely need to honeytrap. 

[Blakeston]

Can someone remind me how Colonel Rennhull sharing information back in season one led to someone's death?

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Can someone remind me how Colonel Rennhull sharing information back in season one led to someone's death?

It was him who killed someone (in season 2, to avoid being exposed, IIRC), so that was a nice use of passive voice to avoid taking blame.  "Mistakes were made".  

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

In college, I learned to only chose topics for research that I was genuinely interested in (experimental psychology).  There's nothing special about Paige's interest in espionage either as a hobby-interest as research for papers. 

Nothing special, but still makes total sense for Elizabeth to be extra cautious. Better to have Paige have no interest in this stuff that have an interest but that's no big deal. That's the level Philip and Elizabeth usually work at. Though of course, not only is it not as potentially damaging as a dead General, but it's far less damaging than the ID that Paige thinks went missing. Love Paige's "Duh" about not going to the library, as if she's totes great at this stuff.

40 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

True. It shows what a terrible mother Elizabeth is that she would recruit her daughter into this nightmare.  I can't remember what were they going to do if Paige didn't agree?  THey couldn't kill her. Send them back to Russia? 

They weren't going to do anything. If she said no she said no. They'd just want her to keep quiet about her parents.

6 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I like Tschaikovsky but it doesn't make me want to be a traitor/spy. 

 

Funny that Paige doesn't bring up the artists who fled Russia. (Good riddance, says Elizabeth--art is stupid!)

I do wonder what Paige is supposed to be studying and if it matters. She has obviously one professor talking about the summit. Maybe that's political science or something? I don't think they've got her in Russian language classes (despite Elizabeth talking about her being CIA) simply because you don't want to make KR or MM have to try to speak Russian with HT. 

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

And we never paid the travel agency-- they got a percentage from the airlines and cruises, etc. So Philip didn't need to cut a "deal" to keep his customer.  

More evidence that it wasn't really about that, it was about the guy feeling abandoned by Philip. Just like in past seasons assets have rebelled when they lose their original handler. If the guy wasn't getting Philip's personal touch there was no reason for him to not just go for the cheapest. Makes sense. I remember my father apparently followed his barber wherever he went so he wound up eventually paying top dollar for his not-that-interesting haircut.

1 minute ago, Tetraneutron said:

And thestuff about being cut off from other agents was also a lie. Not only does Elizabeth have Norm and Marilyn and all her other recruits, she had Leigh Anne and Emmet, fellow spies with whom she hung out socially. 

 

She didn't hang out with them socially much at all. She hung out with them when they were assigned together and that doesn't happen that often.

1 minute ago, Tetraneutron said:

And while she wouldn't be murdering people if she had a job like Stan does, she would definitely need to honeytrap. 

Why would she definitely need to honeytrap? If she had a good job in the CIA she would have access to information herself and not have to be somebody's mistress. Seems like a bad idea to give her the reputation of sleeping with higher-ups, but that's me. Not saying honeytrapping wouldn't ever be an obvious possibility, but there's other ways of getting information.

I do think that Elizabeth is fooling herself on what Paige's life will be like, but her plans for her actually are smarter, imo, than the alternative.

3 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Because part of Elizabeth's job is propaganda and recruitment. We've seen her CONSISTENTLY lie to new recruits about the nature of the job and the ideology behind it.

Have we seen that that much? Hans wasn't being shielded from the fact that their job could be messy and violent. I don't think she would have shielded him from the possibility of sex if it would help the cause. She didn't lie to Lucia. Gregory knew she was in an arranged marriage etc.

All of those people also seemed to be aware of their ideology as well--but then, in all these areas it seems like Paige is coming in more naive than most. Hans and Lucia and Gregory all seemed to have been drawn in for specific reasons that had to do with their own country and came to think that partnering with the USSR would help those things.

Of course we didn't see how she might have soft-pedaled things at first, but it still seems excessive with Paige and like it's got to be personal as well as just the job. I mean, it still means that Elizabeth is treating Paige as a useful idiot rather than a fellow traveler who sees the world the way it is. Which seems off since presumably that's what Elizabeth imagines her as. Or says she does. Her behavior suggests otherwise.

3 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Can someone remind me how Colonel Rennhull sharing information back in season one led to someone's death?

He shared info on Star Wars. Later the guy who hooked the Centre up with him (he was working for Elizabeth and I think had gambling debts) got picked up for I think failure to pay child support and the FBI got onto him as the mole. He told them about the Colonel but the Colonel denied it. Eventually the Colonel shot him when he came ranting to his house. He claimed the guy was crazy and trying to kill him.

[stitcher73]

Apologies if this has already been asked/stated but is the dying woman the uptight boss from Younger???

[kokapetl]

Are all of the paintings of women crying inside steamed up showers?

[teddysmom]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

True. It shows what a terrible mother Elizabeth is that she would recruit her daughter into this nightmare.  I can't remember what were they going to do if Paige didn't agree?  THey couldn't kill her. Send them back to Russia? 

For some reason I thought there was more pressure on them, that they HAD to do it, or there would be repercussions.  

[SusanSunflower]

If they are grooming Paige for a 30 year career as an embedded agent, particularly focused, she needs a solid grounding from the Soviet side. 

She doesn't need it to do surveillance or run errand.  P&E have not particularly needed a much background to the tasks they have been assigned (because they're short term tasks, not part of an embedded life-style and curated community of informants). 

Again the KGB could simply be squandering Paige and next-generation golden potential.  They knew the idea of a second generation was golden but now don't know what to do with her?

Again, we don't know what she's studying, but she should be developing allies and assets among the faculty who will help her with her public career and the KGB would be excellent guides (advice most college students never get).  Stephen Cohen of The Nation often mentions his long history as a Russian scholar over the last 50-60 years, the last cold war and the current chilliness/new cold war, and the friends and contacts he has in Russia going back to early college days (his interest started young), including diplomats, politicians and historians much older than himself (he's 79).  He's been friends with Gorbachev for years.  These contacts/associates/friends have gone in and out of favor/disfavor and suspicion in cycles over their careers as the winds change.   Paige should be working on the foundations of her proposed trajectory -- whatever her proposed field of specialization might be, even if it's civil service (nice safe desk job) or law enforcement or military  (which currently seems deeply unlikely, doubt she could pass the physical)  

eta:  She will need also to be ambitious to get to a position of useful intelligence regardless of her intended career path. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

The Americans Seek A Sensor From A Sensitive Old Contact

The run up to the summit requires the acquisition of some important tech from an Air Force general who REALLY doesn't want to give it up.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

Fun Fact:  In 1987, Aldrich Ames (already a 25+ year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency), had already been spying for the KGB for 2 years (arrested in 1994) 

FBI agent Robert Hansen had already begun spying for Russia as well as during this time (started in 1986 and arrested in 2001).

Edited April 5, 2018 by benteen

[attica]

20 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

If they are grooming Paige for a 30 year career as an embedded agent, particularly focused, she needs a solid grounding from the Soviet side. 

Plus, they need to be way more upfront with her about honey traps, since she'll need that to get close to Saul Berenson in around 30 years. (Yes, I'm continuing my fanwank that Holly Taylor grows up to be Miranda Otto in Homeland. Come at me.)

[SusanSunflower]

I think that the Center rightly knew that Elizabeth's extremely competitive nature would make turning Paige into a Nex-Gen exemplar a cinch ... Proving the failure wrt Jared was not with the KGB but more with his parents' objections.  

ETA:  Yes, Hansen ... even more relevant.  I had forgotten his name.  The value of those turncoats put P&E and the illegal program into a different light.  Sometimes I wonder that P&E don't realize how small the potatoes they are killing people over really seem to be ... particularly when there's bad KGB intel involved (too often) 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Again the KGB could simply be squandering Paige and next-generation golden potential.  They knew the idea of a second generation was golden but now don't know what to do with her?

 

See, this is exactly how it seems to me. I don't understand why you would *ever* put her in these situations where she's being a lookout for Elizabeth's crimes. Teaching her surveillance and stuff sure. But you don't need to be committing a crime for that. Just train her to be aware of her surroundings, to lose a tail (i.e., Elizabeth) etc. Stuff like that. Having her start an amateur jr. spy career at 19 is just risking the boring desk job with tons of info you want her to get in the future.

But otoh, it almost seems fitting that Elizabeth isn't shown doing that. That she thinks she can just train Paige to be like her and not really have a clue how to actually get her into these jobs she wants her to have. It would almost psychologically play as Elizabeth unconsciously wanting Paige to be exactly like her because that's all she can imagine. So she ignores details like the type of kids who get those hotshot careers and finds herself--surprise surprise--answering questions about honeypots. Like everybody kind of secretly thinks Paige is destined to chat up men with powerful jobs rather than be that person with the job. It helps to be the kind of person who makes friends to get that kind of job. Rather than being a pretty girl who gets boys' attention for that.

Which again is reflecting in that phone call with Henry who demonstrates basic social intelligence when he understands the real problem with Philip's client. A problem Philip himself also got but was trying to deny to himself because of the long-range implications. 

[SusanSunflower]

yes, and like most undergraduates, even good-student Paige could hardly afford spending hours a day on these "tasks" and "errands" for the Centre and to excel she needs good grades (and as mentioned contacts).   Does super-Paige also have a job and/or how is she paying for that apartment? (I put myself through college and had zero social life because there were no free hours -- it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me.  There was plenty I would have liked to have done, but -- oops -- gotta go to work) 

ETA: You're right, Paige should be being kept as far away as possible from Claudia and on-the-job Elizabeth ... too much risk of becoming some unexplained "known associates"  or stumbling into the glare at the wrong moment.  I know it's "just a TV show" but it's an uncommonly smart one ... Paige has become 2-dimensional rather than a character we care about 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, and like most undergraduates, even good-student Paige could hardly afford spending hours a day on these "tasks" and "errands" for the Centre and to excel she needs good grades (and as mentioned contacts).   Does super-Paige also have a job and/or how is she paying for that apartment? (I put myself through college and had zero social life because there were no free hours -- it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me.  There was plenty I would have liked to have done, but -- oops -- gotta go to work) 

I'm sure her parents/the Centre are paying for her apartment. One that removes her from the center of university life as well. I'm sure they'll introduce some randos that Paige knows who'll invite her to something at some point so that they can get some amateur spy / life thing going for her to advance the "life=spying" thing, but from what we've seen so far Paige doesn't seem to be having the full-immersion college experience at all. She might as well be just taking class at a local community college. At least that's how it seems when we see her. Not because she's so busy, really, but because she's no more connected to the social world of her college than she was in high school or even in her church group where rando guys would come up and hug her but her own attention was for the Tims.

[SusanSunflower]

Yikes -- poor lonely lonely Paige, tied to her mom and surrogate grandma for socializing ... 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[benteen]

Excellent point.  Paige should be spending more of her time at her college (where does she even go anyway?) cultivating potentially valuable contacts and taking advantage of opportunities.  Wasting hours on surveillance is not going to help her.  She should be looking for interning opportunities that will one day lead her to a job at the State Department or the CIA.

Edited April 5, 2018 by benteen

[SusanSunflower]

In Spy-vs-Spy land, it's entirely possible that their (enormously important) Summit-related surveillance target is recognized by others as a likely surveillance target ... so there might well be folks (with cameras) trying watch-the-watchers ... much as one does not need to suspect wire-taps to sweep for bugs, but finding bugs (even if you can't necessarily determine who planted them) is important information to have.  Assuming other parties might be spying on you is part of the game. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[mwell345]

Granted, I may have missed this, because I missed a couple of episodes last season, and I realize there is a time jump - but has the show ever made it clear WHY Paige is now a Spy In Training?  Is it that she thinks it's exciting and glamorous?  Did her mother recruit her and talk her into it ( I do remember talk about a next generation of spies at one point)?  Does she truly believe in the Russian cause? I find it hard to believe that an American teenager would decide she wants to be a Russian spy when she grows up (even given the fact that her parents are spies).

It just seems too contrived to me and I am wondering if there was ever any explanation given. 

[jjj]

22 minutes ago, benteen said:

Excellent point.  Paige should be spending more of her time at her college (where does she even go anyway?) cultivating potentially valuable contacts and taking advantage of opportunities.  Wasting hours on surveillance is not going to help her.  She should be looking for interning opportunities that will one day lead her to a job at the State Department or the CIA.

 

I think they said last week that she is at George Washington University -- and I have to assume someone checked with GWU to make sure they were okay with that! 

2 minutes ago, mwell345 said:

Granted, I may have missed this, because I missed a couple of episodes last season, and I realize there is a time jump - but has the show ever made it clear WHY Paige is now a Spy In Training?  Is it that she thinks it's exciting and glamorous?  Did her mother recruit her and talk her into it ( I do remember talk about a next generation of spies at one point)?  Does she truly believe in the Russian cause? I find it hard to believe that an American teenager would decide she wants to be a Russian spy when she grows up (even given the fact that her parents are spies).

It just seems too contrived to me and I am wondering if there was ever any explanation given. 

Paige was trying to Become Part of Something Bigger Than Herself:  so Pastor Tim's enterprise initially; then Elizabeth channelled Paige's desire for Something Bigger than Herself into spycraft and defending the mother country.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by jjj

[Chaos Theory]

19 minutes ago, benteen said:

Excellent point.  Paige should be spending more of her time at her college (where does she even go anyway?) cultivating potentially valuable contacts and taking advantage of opportunities.  Wasting hours on surveillance is not going to help her.  She should be looking for interning opportunities that will one day lead her to a job at the State Department or the CIA.

Now this I agree with and would find this a fascinating story if we had another season. The problem is the show is focused too much on The Summit, the end of travel agencies and the Elizabeth and Philips spiraling to focus too much on Paige..,fir better and worse.  Even though I do think there are ALOT of fascinating stories to tell with her and given more time the show could tell them.

[Erin9]

I read a review that made a good point- the General had been Philip’s asset in S1. He knew him. He knew he wasn’t a traitor in the way Oleg wasn’t a traitor. He was interested in keeping the peace, the greater world good. Maybe if Philip was still involved or Elizabeth had talked to him before the meet, it might not have been such an incredible disaster. Sure she’s not supposed to talk about anything dead hand to anyone anyway, but it would have been wise to do so in this case. 

I really wouldn’t have remembered that if it wasn’t for the review. It would be nice if the writers expanded on this too. It’s a reminder that Elizabeth needs Philip. And he’s a better people person anyway. Bottom line- she underestimated the General. 

I am glad the writers re-emphasized that the ultimate goal for Paige is in CIA or the state dept. She’s not supposed to be just like her parents. 

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I read a review that made a good point- the General had been Philip’s asset in S1. He knew him. He knew he wasn’t a traitor in the way Oleg wasn’t a traitor. He was interested in keeping the peace, the greater world good. 

Except, they were both traitors, in the eyes of their governments, and would have been prosecuted and put in jail (the general) or killed (Oleg).  Believing that one's opinion is a higher authority than government policy, and then using those good individual intentions to subvert government policy, is classic traitor definition.  Even when done with the best of intention.  

[Erin9]

8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Now this I agree with and would find this a fascinating story if we had another season. The problem is the show is focused too much on The Summit, the end of travel agencies and the Elizabeth and Philips spiraling to focus too much on Paige..,fir better and worse.  Even though I do think there are ALOT of fascinating stories to tell with her and given more time the show could tell them.

I don’t think the show is focusing on the end of travel agencies at all. It’s really too soon for that; they still exist today anyway- just not as prevalent as they used to be. 

The point of the travel agency story was showing what happened when Philip passed off something he’d been personally responsible for to someone else. Things got messed up. It parallels his issue with spying. He has responsibilities he’s neglecting. And he knows it. 

[SusanSunflower]

yes, that "personal touch" is often undervalued, particularly when things are going well ... these days' they've made "the personal touch" and follow-up into an secondary industry ... but Christmas Card lists and remembering the spouse's name "mattered" even just as expected flattering, like picking up the tab for lunch (because you're worth it to me) 

ETA: Spiro didn't "lose" the client ... Philip did, and he (belatedly) realized it.  Spiro "might" have realized the client needed more personal attention, but that attention from him (Spiro) might (or might not) have adequately substituted for the owner's personal touch 

Edited April 5, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The problem is the show is focused too much on The Summit, the end of travel agencies

I've gotta say, I'm not seeing this "end of Travel Agencies" storyline at all. The travel agency is literally booming. This is why Philip lost the client, because he's got more clients so he's less hands-on. There's no internet yet, so why would they be in danger? They still have to be competitive etc., but it's not a dying industry. 

13 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I read a review that made a good point- the General had been Philip’s asset in S1. He knew him. He knew he wasn’t a traitor in the way Oleg wasn’t a traitor.

He really wasn't Philip's asset. Elizabeth got hooked up with him via a different asset and was the one who was supposed to meet with him before Philip grabbed it for himself because they thought it was a trap. 

I do agree that Philip probably would have been much better with him. Though I don't know if that would have stopped the KGB from ordering him to be blackmailed. I mean, Elizabeth's clearly burnt out and impatient and that's why she just wants this guy to just buckle under and have it be over. She's got weeks before the summit and doesn't have time to convince a general to turn traitor. This is what they've got on him.

But I think even more important is that the Colonel (now General) is one of the Olegs. And the Oleg types (including the Colonel, Arkady and Philip) are not on the side of the hardliners. The fact that Philip understood the guy so well is a reason that Philip would object the same way the Colonel did to working for Elizabeth's shady Mexican contact. Elizabeth was asking the guy to do exactly the opposite thing as he did before and she thinks that's a good idea. Philip wouldn't. 

8 minutes ago, jjj said:

Except, they were both traitors, in the eyes of their governments, and would have been prosecuted and put in jail (the general) or killed (Oleg).  Believing that one's opinion is a higher authority than government policy, and then using those good individual intentions to subvert government policy, is classic traitor definition.  Even when done with the best of intention.  

Yeah, but the guy's point was clear. He knew he was legally a traitor by any definition, but he's not Paige and or Gennady and he's not Larrick. He wasn't any of the guys Elizabeth needed him to be, somebody who would commit treason and do something he thought was wrong to protect his reputation. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I've gotta say, I'm not seeing this "end of Travel Agencies" storyline at all. The travel agency is literally booming. This is why Philip lost the client, because he's got more clients so he's less hands-on. There's no internet yet, so why would they be in danger? They still have to be competitive etc., but it's not a dying industry.   [snip]

Yeah, but the guy's point was clear. He knew he was legally a traitor by any definition, but he's not Paige and or Gennady and he's not Larrick. He wasn't any of the guys Elizabeth needed him to be, somebody who would commit treason and do something he thought was wrong to protect his reputation. 

Completely agree about the "end of travel agencies" not anywhere near happening in 1987.  That is my huge quibble with the writers:  they made it sound like there was a "budget" option, but CONSUMERS DID NOT PAY for the travel services, as I noted in an earlier post.  So, they are imposing two mythologies:  that Philip's customer found a cheaper travel agent (no) and that travel agencies were endangered (not for a while yet).  

And yes, I agree that the sticking point for the general was that he would not actively betray his country to save himself.  

There is a LOT of discussion in the reviews about whether Elizabeth killed him or he killed himself -- and I watched that three times.  It is *deliberately* vague about whose hands were pushing the gun toward him versus away from him, and who pulled the trigger.  Same result, but different eyes see different things at that moment.  

[Erin9]

Thanks @sistermagpie

I had forgotten the exact details. But- Philip did know and understand the General. He understood his motivations, his character. Elizabeth didn’t. To me, there’s an emphasis that this wouldn’t have been such a disaster had Philip been there. 

Agreed. The whole reason Philip handed his client off is due to the expansion. The business isn’t in trouble. He lost the client because the client didn’t have a personal relationship with the employee Philip passed him off to.