S06.E15: Doppelganger

[Primal Slayer]

It's fine that Diggle thinks this is the life that Oliver really wants but don't be trying to push him out the door! Especially when the city is in crisis. He was practically whining that Oliver didnt trust him enough to be Green Arrow.

At least with Quentin, he's seen his kids die and come back to life so many times I can have more sympathy for him. Diggle just jealous that he cant be Oliver when being Spartan should be good enough, he can forge his own legacy and he doesnt need to be Green Arrow to fight crime. 

[JamieLynn832002]

I've decided Dig wants to be GA right now not because he really wants it but because it means he won't have to wear that stupid light shining in his eyes and clearly illuminating his face helmet anymore.  I can't think of any other reason he'd want to be the only member of the team anybody ever wants to arrest.

[WindofChange]

17 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Diggle just jealous that he cant be Oliver when being Spartan should be good enough, he can forge his own legacy and he doesnt need to be Green Arrow to fight crime. 

I do have a feeling there's more to it than jealousy we just haven't found out yet so I don't think you can really judge him for what he's going through without really knowing what it is. Until he verbalizes WHY he wants to be GA I don't think anyone can say what it is. I am curious where they're taking it though

18 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It's fine that Diggle thinks this is the life that Oliver really wants but don't be trying to push him out the door! Especially when the city is in crisis. He was practically whining that Oliver didnt trust him enough to be Green Arrow.

When is the city not in crisis? :p

[Mellowyellow]

My theory: Diggle wants to be GA because he wants Olicity to have Olicitots as much as I do, so it's all part of his nefarious plan to take the GA mantle, leaving Oliver free to ponder Olicitots.

[BkWurm1]

I think we aren't supposed to think that Diggle is desperate to be the famous guy again, but that he is bugging Oliver because he assumed nothing on Oliver's end has changed when it comes to him wanting to hang up the hood. 

Oliver came back because he had to.  It was temporary.  He told Diggle even when Diggle has a prognosis that included possible permanent injury or paralysis if he went back out that what he wanted was for Diggle to get better and then be the Green Arrow.  So now Diggle is better and barring someone hacking his chip again, he's met the condition for what Oliver wanted.  But now Oliver isn't doing what he said he wanted to do.  And if he still thinks Oliver wants to retire, he is now probably worried that Oliver has lost confidence that he could take over the hood again or just completely baffled.  

Felicity seems confused too.  She told both Diggle and Oliver she assumed Oliver just thought it was the wrong time and she referenced all that had been going on lately.  She seemed to think that when things felt more stable, Oliver would hand off the hood, just like he said he was going to.  Only now Oliver has told her that he's not sure if the reason he hasn't yet given the hood back to Diggle is about it being too soon.  So we are back to either Oliver thinks he can't retire or doesn't want to.

I think we are supposed to think like Diggle and wonder why isn't Oliver retired, as opposed to like me, where I completely forgot that Oliver was supposed to be back in the hood only temporarily.  

[Mary0360]

I think Diggle has been more disappointed then pissed. And I haven't got the impression that should Oliver decide to keep the Green Arrow  (which obvs he will) that that will be a deal breaker for their relationship or anything. It's not really Diggles to keep.

 

If I had to analyse Dig, my guess is needing Green Arrow is more about his desire to be something more then just Oliver's body guard. Having a bigger purpose and being able to take charge. Not  living on the side lines. Maybe similar to Felicity, it will lead to Diggle wanting some kind of legacy of his own or something outside of Team Arrow to enrich his life besides just the day to day Arrow stuff.

 

If the show is winding down, as in maybe one more season, I think it makes some sense for Oliver Felicity and Diggle to look at having a life and purpose beyond Team Arrow while at the same to developing the next generation of Star City heroes so that the show has an easy out for them. 

 

On that note, I mean one one of the things I'm curious about is if they finish Arrow before Supergirl Flash LOT etc how they'll explain why Oliver and team don't help with big end of the world crossover events. Or will the actors be signed into contracts that keeps them available for crossovers after the show finishes? 

[Primal Slayer]

Now I want Diggle to meet Diggle Jr. He'd be jumping for joy knowing his son is the Green Arrow and not some sidekick. 

[Al Herkimer]

A good episode but as usual there are a few questions that make it tough to fully endorse.  Many of them, like the idea of beating someone into testifying the way you want, and GA flying off at the end of the ep, have already been mentioned.  Also:

Roy's been sleeping with cockroaches for two years?  He couldn't do any better than that, and they couldn't help him?  Would he have been suffering like that for the rest of his life if the bad guys didn't being him back?

During the big fight, a lot of people got shot with bullets and arrows.  There was a clear shot of Oliver sinking an arrow at least an inch deep directly into the center on one guy's upper chest.  He fell straight down and lay there without a twitch.  Nobody's getting killed in these fights?  Or bleeding out in the aftermath?

So many people know GA's identity now, and many if not most of them hate him.  That's not even including the many nameless henchmen who must have overheard the villains talking to or about him.  It seems  unworkable at this point.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Al Herkimer

[Mary0360]

29 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Now I want Diggle to meet Diggle Jr. He'd be jumping for joy knowing his son is the Green Arrow and not some sidekick. 

His son is not the Green Arrow though. Firstly, 2046 isn't the current timeline, the LOT episode called it a possible future not the actual future. And John Jr still worked with old man Green Arrow. 

[bijoux]

@BkWurm1 and @Mary0360, you both bring up good points and I hope you are proven right. However, I can't deny that Dig's confusing me. Arrow's MO of shelving things until a reveal at a later date isn't really the best way to go here IMO. And I have also already forgotten that Oliver's return was supposed to be temporary. However, he also asked Dig to be GA when there was a team for him to lead. Oliver leaves and it's just Dig and Felicity. So yes, there is the fact that Dig is better, although susceptible to sneak attacks. (I really wouldn't mind someone breaking Curtis' fingers for that.) But there is also the reality of losing three team mates, who are now more often than not hindrances 

[Primal Slayer]

13 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

His son is not the Green Arrow though. Firstly, 2046 isn't the current timeline, the LOT episode called it a possible future not the actual future. And John Jr still worked with old man Green Arrow. 

He was the Green Arrow. He took up the mantle after Oliver was thought dead. And I'm sure he'll stay in the role no matter what future. 

[Velocity23]

Since John Diggle died in that alternative timeline i am not sure it would really calm Diggle. 

[Primal Slayer]

He'd die a happy man though.

[Velocity23]

I would stay the state he is in right now, he would be much more tormented. 

[tv echo]

[Featherhat]

I think my favourite part of the episode, besides Olicity talking things out and sharing breath was Oliver shutting down Tinah when she "I suppose I'll have to help you, just this once!" Seriously Tinah you can't behave the way the boobs have behaved for weeks and then expect people to be delighted with your resentful scraps and Oliver's taken so much crap from her, even in just this episode. 

All things Thea/Roy were also lovely, as was Oliver's talk with Thea about leaving with Roy, how things have changed!

[Primal Slayer]

It was nice to have majority of the OG cast in 1 scene, if only Colton was there. They havent been together in FOREVER. 

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

He'd die a happy man though.

Knowing that after years fighting to save the city, it ends with it all destroyed?  Their families, both the found and natural ones torn apart?  Most of his loved ones just as dead as he was?  His son tortured by his father's pointless sacrifice to the point where he abandons any shot at a real life or happiness of his own?  Instead choosing to face death every day, fighting alone without love or kindness in his life?  The timeline in LoT's 2046 was a nightmarescape.   One that Old Man Oliver was so ashamed of letting happen that he preferred to live exiled and presumed dead.   

So if someone were to tell John about that scenario, I don't think Diggle would spend much time enjoying his son holding the mantle of the Green Arrow.  He'd probably more focus  on all the other hellish results.  That's not what any parent wants.   Fortunately, LoT have already changed the timeline.  Just by their occasional return and contact with the present, they changed the timeline and that's before they did any future hero-ing.  The fact that the Legends can be contacted as proved by the Nazi invasion (and the wedding invites) lets me dismiss 2046 as at all likely.  

I suspect if Diggle ever knew about 2046 he'd pack up his family and run far and fast from anything to do with legacy of the Green Arrow.  

[Primal Slayer]

Knowing his son was Green Arrow and fighting the good fight? Yeah Id say he'd be jumping for joy. But I still think that Jr. will still end up taking up the mantle.

I think he is to obsessed with wanting to wear the hood that even if he did know about 2046, he would fight even more to change it then running away.  

[Delphi]

Where exactly does everyone live now?  Is Thea back at the loft while felicity is at the apartment?  Did they sell laurels apartment?

 

I would also like to thank the newbies for making Laurel fucking Lance a preferable character to watch. 

Thea going ape shit gives me life,  but I don't want Willa to go...i want her and Colton to stay and for everyone else to go.  Unless I can get a spinoff of Thea and Roy traveling the state's on a motorcycle performing random vigilante acts. 

[Primal Slayer]

Arent the Queens in the loft? Thea in her/Laurels apartment, Quentin/Siren in Quentins apartment (is this a new apartment?), and the Diggles still in their old apartment.

[BkWurm1]

38 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Knowing his son was Green Arrow and fighting the good fight? Yeah Id say he'd be jumping for joy. But I still think that Jr. will still end up taking up the mantle.

I think he is to obsessed with wanting to wear the hood that even if he did know about 2046, he would fight even more to change it then running away.  

Agree to disagree about any joyous leap and while I was being hyperbolic about him running, I think he literally would if he thought that would save the future.  There's no way I believe he cares enough about a title to sacrifice the happiness and saftey of others.  If any part of him was inclined to that before, he learned his lesson in hiding his injury.  The Diggle I know wouldn't repeat the same mistake.

6 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Arent the Queens in the loft? Thea in her/Laurels apartment, Quentin/Siren in Quentins apartment (is this a new apartment?), and the Diggles still in their old apartment.

Oliver, Felicity and William are in a brand new apartment that Oliver got when he got custody of William. Last we heard Thea was still in Laurel's old apartment but she was in a coma for months and months. Maybe they packed up her stuff and dropped the lease?  Though Thea's money she got from Malcolm probably meant there was money to cover just keeping it.  

I think Quentin is supposed to be in the same apartment he was in since last year but I'm not sure.  Felicity has her start up out of the loft but IF Thea needed a place to live, the loft would make sense since Oliver had already given Felicity a key to his apartment and in the next episode they were married.  Who's to say they weren't already living together when Thea woke up?  

Edited March 10, 2018 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

So I was pondering Diaz and his supposed plan.  The idea that what we see now was all according to his grand plan rings incredibly false.  This is the guy that was waiting around for James to fly him out of town before the bomb went off and pissed when he realized no helicopter was coming.  This is the guy that was going to leave town BECAUSE it was going to blow up.  So there's no way I'm going to buy he expected all along for the city not to blow and that he'd be in a position to then step in to control the unblown up city.  But how then do I reconcile DDDragon being the mastermind behind killing Cayden's son and framing the GA?  

I think the answer is that Diaz had no fricken clue what James was going to do or how it would be to his advantage if he killed his son and framed the GA but he wanted to see.  Like a psychopath plucking the wings off a fly.  So he killed Cayden's son just because he could and wanted to watch what happened next and figured in whatever chaos was created, there'd be opportunities made. 

Then when he saw an opportunity he liked, he joined forces with James to get some money, fully intending to flee town.  Only James never intended to share the money or let his "partners" live.  So DDDragon stepped in, bribed a bunch of probably really scared officials (probably claims he is responsible for the bomb really not going off), kills Cayden, and is now claiming that this was his plan all along and that Cayden James was a dummy anyway for wanting to blow up the city (even if Diaz had been fine with that until he got cut out of the deal).  

He also knows about Roy from some source.  Quite possibly Cayden James' research.  Or maybe Chase friended him so Diaz was able to read his Facebook page- too bad he didn't read all the entries right away since clearly he didn't know who Diggle was when they first met.  So much for seeing all.  

  DDDragon's new goal is controlling the city but I don't buy that Diaz cares if Oliver is locked up through the courts as the GA or not.  IF Diaz was relying on it, his plan wouldn't have been for Roy to get rescued.  Now if Roy didn't get rescued, then that would have worked for him as well since while Cayden James getting Oliver charged as the GA before was just part of making his life hard, Diaz still sees the practicality of getting rid of Oliver (he always has since that was the seed he planted with James even if he didn't know how it would sprout) even if through the courts isn't necessarily the way he expects to finally get rid of Oliver or at least through Roy's testimony. 

He also has something going on with whatever Arclight is, but I wouldn't be surprised if it too is just some other opportunity he's glommed onto even if he makes claims later of it having always been the reason for what he's done.  I can believe he might keep some bigger picture as a flexible option (big reward if he can make it happen) but that he just takes the opportunities when they open up.  His true talent would be in stirring the water to create many options rather in hard core plotting and planning.    

So the understanding of Diaz I'm going to go with is him being an egomaniac psycho that likes to set things in motion with no real plan in mind at the time, but who then is good at taking advantage of the opportunities he randomly creates and that he then also retroactively claims this was always his plan and he is the smartest guy ever and will shoot you if you point out why that is clearly crap.  

Edited March 10, 2018 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I'd like to believe he set things in motion with no plan in mind, but just last episode he said "I see all, I know all. I control it all. I've been working on this for months." He then rambled on about how BS and Cayden were all part of a larger puzzle and that BS shouldn't worry about chumps like Dinah and Oliver who can't see "two inches past their face." 

I think they meant to write a real mastermind, but wound up writing a real moron.

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I'd like to believe he set things in motion with no plan in mind, but just last episode he said "I see all, I know all. I control it all. I've been working on this for months." He then rambled on about how BS and Cayden were all part of a larger puzzle and that BS shouldn't worry about chumps like Dinah and Oliver who can't see "two inches past their face." 

I think they meant to write a real mastermind, but wound up writing a real moron.

Oh, I know what he is saying.  I just think he's deluded and lying to everyone including himself.  It's the only way I can make sense of this villain plot.  He isn't a mastermind, he's an opportunist that pretends he's a mastermind.    And who is going to tell him differently?  Right now Team Arrow thinks he might be this super smart guy and he's smart enough to let them keep thinking that.  It's just since as a viewer we know more than the OTA, we know it's all crap.  

[Primal Slayer]

This is why I need some interviews from MG and co. because that's one of the low points of the season. They keep adding these new layers that make no sense. It's as if they are just making it up as they go (which im sure they are and would never admit to). 

Did Siren call the bank and find out that the money was gone? Are we suppose to believe that she flew there? When did Diaz find out it was her that stole it? Where she put it? 

[Delphi]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Oliver, Felicity and William are in a brand new apartment that Oliver got when he got custody of William. Last we heard Thea was still in Laurel's old apartment but she was in a coma for months and months. Maybe they packed up her stuff and dropped the lease?  Though Thea's money she got from Malcolm probably meant there was money to cover just keeping it.  

I think Quentin is supposed to be in the same apartment he was in since last year but I'm not sure.  Felicity has her start up out of the loft but IF Thea needed a place to live, the loft would make sense since Oliver had already given Felicity a key to his apartment and in the next episode they were married.  Who's to say they weren't already living together when Thea woke up?  

 

 Quinton is still at the same place,  though i think it's defintely a Different set,  but Quarks would know better than me.

I think they may olicity might've been cohabiting upon Thea waking up.   I dunno,  I guess the writers and directors just plop characters into whatever set now.   Because the loft (with two bedrooms even though we've never seen the other) was defintely Oliver's but with Thea decor.   I also don't think Dinah or Quinton are mentally healthy enough to rationally sell Laurel's place.   And last checked Thea still lived three.  I'm going to head cannon that after the coma they just moved Thea back into her loft which was once inhabited by olicity...owned by Merlin enterprises... real estate laws be damned.

 

Eta: how do these people get mail?

Edited March 10, 2018 by Delphi

[BkWurm1]

5 minutes ago, Delphi said:

And last checked Thea still lived three.  I'm going to head cannon that after the coma they just moved Thea back into her loft which was once inhabited by olicity...owned by Merlin enterprises... real estate laws be damned.

The loft was always a lease even when Thea had it.  

[Delphi]

 You didn't answer the mail query though.  :)  Also bravo on remembering that. 

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oh, I know what he is saying.  I just think he's deluded and lying to everyone including himself.  It's the only way I can make sense of this villain plot.  He isn't a mastermind, he's an opportunist that pretends he's a mastermind.    And who is going to tell him differently?  Right now Team Arrow thinks he might be this super smart guy and he's smart enough to let them keep thinking that.  It's just since as a viewer we know more than the OTA, we know it's all crap.  

Ah, okay. 

I wish the writers really did put that much thought  into Diaz's character. I'd feel a lot better if I thought they actually meant to write someone deluded. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

14 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Because the loft (with two bedrooms even though we've never seen the other) was defintely Oliver's but with Thea decor.

We actually have seen the other! Diggle and Felicity had a chat up there last season (it's an office now) in the episode where Curtis put nanites in Felicity's pancakes to track her to Helix. 

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

We actually have seen the other! Diggle and Felicity had a chat up there last season (it's an office now) in the episode where Curtis put nanites in Felicity's pancakes to track her to Helix. 

Lol, I have zero memory of that.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lol, I have zero memory of that.  

TBH, I don't understand this loft. So when Oliver was staying here, did he and Thea just use curtains to close off their rooms?!?!

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

TBH, I don't understand this loft. So when Oliver was staying here, did he and Thea just use curtains to close off their rooms?!?!

Sadly, seems that way. Very yuck. I guess that's why Thea felt comfortable banging DJ Douche on the couch - it had just as much privacy as her room would've. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Knowing his son was Green Arrow and fighting the good fight? Yeah Id say he'd be jumping for joy.

If you think John Diggle would be happy that his son basically turns out to be season 1 Oliver, you don't know John Diggle. 

[Featherhat]

24 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

TBH, I don't understand this loft. So when Oliver was staying here, did he and Thea just use curtains to close off their rooms?!?!

Seriously, adult siblings living together is fine, but you've got to make more privacy arrangements than just curtains. I know Oliver wasn't dating anyone but Thea was and there's lots of other activities you don't want overheard. No wonder Thea was happy to move in with Laurel the second Olicity moved back to Starling. That's less privacy than the Legends and their one bathroom for the whole team (and not sound proof doors have. Then again, Arrowverse writers have some fixation on siblings. 

[Primal Slayer]

17 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

If you think John Diggle would be happy that his son basically turns out to be season 1 Oliver, you don't know John Diggle. 

S6 Diggle is not the same man he was in S1-5 imo. 

[EmilyBettFan]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I'd like to believe he set things in motion with no plan in mind, but just last episode he said "I see all, I know all. I control it all. I've been working on this for months." He then rambled on about how BS and Cayden were all part of a larger puzzle and that BS shouldn't worry about chumps like Dinah and Oliver who can't see "two inches past their face." 

I think they meant to write a real mastermind, but wound up writing a real moron.

LOL the real moron part got me ???

41 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Sadly, seems that way. Very yuck. I guess that's why Thea felt comfortable banging DJ Douche on the couch - it had just as much privacy as her room would've. 

You're on a roll today! ???

[Mary0360]

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Knowing his son was Green Arrow and fighting the good fight? Yeah Id say he'd be jumping for joy. But I still think that Jr. will still end up taking up the mantle.

I think he is to obsessed with wanting to wear the hood that even if he did know about 2046, he would fight even more to change it then running away.  

He is not the Green Arrow though. Old Oliver finished the episode as the Green Arrow with John Jr. working with him.  And 2046 isn't even a real timeline so it's all moot anyway and has no impact on Diggle.  

[Primal Slayer]

2 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

He is not the Green Arrow though. Old Oliver finished the episode as the Green Arrow with John Jr. working with him.  And 2046 isn't even a real timeline so it's all moot anyway and has no impact on Diggle.  

He started the episode as Green Arrow and finished the episode as Green Arrow. Oliver called him John, John said "it's Connor", Oliver said "either way, It's Green Arrow" as he pushed the bow back towards him.

[Mary0360]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

He started the episode as Green Arrow and finished the episode as Green Arrow. Oliver called him John, John said "it's Connor", Oliver said "either way, It's Green Arrow" as he pushed the bow back towards him.

I don't remember the episode ending with that impression. I remember it ending with the impression they were both going to be fixing Star City together. But either way even if John Jr is the Green Arrow it wasn't a real timeline. So to link Diggles Green Arrow wishes to a version of his son that won't ever transpire is moot. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is probably silly, but I think the title of this episode makes no sense. Who is the doppelgänger? Surely not Black Siren pretending to be Laurel. Since she’s been on this show since last season. It’s not as if she is someone people think looks like Laurel, but know she’s not, because that twat is saying she is Laurel, and none of the idiot support players (reporters, other good cops) even know about Black Siren.

I thought maybe the title meant that Roy wasn’t Roy, but his doppelgänger.

I don’t even know why this is bugging me.

[Mary0360]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is probably silly, but I think the title of this episode makes no sense. Who is the doppelgänger? Surely not Black Siren pretending to be Laurel. Since she’s been on this show since last season. It’s not as if she is someone people think looks like Laurel, but know she’s not, because that twat is saying she is Laurel, and none of the idiot support players (reporters, other good cops) even know about Black Siren.

I thought maybe the title meant that Roy wasn’t Roy, but his doppelgänger.

I don’t even know why this is bugging me.

I think it's just a really unsubtle title in a season of unsubtle titles. Because the episode focused somewhat on Siren and she's a doppelgänger they call it doppelgänger. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Mary0360 said:

I think it's just a really unsubtle title in a season of unsubtle titles. Because the episode focused somewhat on Siren and she's a doppelgänger they call it doppelgänger. 

It’s stupid. But your explanation makes sense.

[Mary0360]

Just now, GHScorpiosRule said:

It’s stupid. But your explanation makes sense.

I don't know if you follow spoilers but check out the title for 6x20. It's totally vague and non descript ;) 

[GHScorpiosRule]

42 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

I don't know if you follow spoilers but check out the title for 6x20. It's totally vague and non descript ;) 

No, I don’t. I avoid ALL spoilers! ?

[Delphi]

I avoid spoilers but the titles this year have taken a nose dive in the wrong direction. 

[WindofChange]

Love love LOVE this

[DeadZeus]

So that dude a few episodes ago that was like... There is this video of this woman withdrawing the money on Corto Maltese... Didn't recognise her even when Laurel was plastered all over the news?

[Balaclava]

12 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

He started the episode as Green Arrow and finished the episode as Green Arrow. Oliver called him John, John said "it's Connor", Oliver said "either way, It's Green Arrow" as he pushed the bow back towards him.

While i don't agree Diggle would be happy knowing there's a future out there where he died and SC went to hell i do agree on JD Jr. I don't think it's some random coincidence they gave John Diggle Jr the GA mantle, also don't think they erased baby Sara and brought JD Jr on arrow for nothing. 

So one way or another i do think JD Jr will eventually be GA and i assume they will connect Diggle wanting the mantle to JD Jr picking it up later, don't think it will be about Oliver training him only. 

I'm a fan of it, i know some people will scream "but canon" (wrong parents in this case) but look at it this way, at least he wasn't whitewashed.