S07.E12: A Taste of the Heights

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think you said this earlier, but I'm more disturbed by how Tiana suddenly became shrieky and completely lacking in composure after Naveen fell into the water.  It was totally opposite to her calm demeanor as the Resistance Leader.  

And after all her talk about how she didn't need Naveen and was going to take care of it all herself, it was even worse. I guess, technically, she ended up taking care of it, but after a lot of shrieking, and after her being so focused on bitching at him that the alligator was able to sneak up on them. If she really hadn't needed him, then she needed to have been the one to spot the alligator, take the spear away from him, and calmly take care of it.

The cop was the same guy we've seen at the precinct before, right? The one who wouldn't help Henry with his stolen car and who called Rogers "Eagle Scout"? I keep waiting for him to show up in the fairy tale world. Like, in this episode, maybe we should have seen that he was a palace guard being paid by Facilier.

And I guess the doctor and the blind witch are also fairy tale characters. The blind witch is obvious, given the gingerbread houses, but I wonder who the doctor was.

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

If she really hadn't needed him, then she needed to have been the one to spot the alligator, take the spear away from him, and calmly take care of it.

Not to mention, she wasn't even appropriately dressed for Gator-hunter. Nice mess she'd have been in if she had fallen in with those voluminous gown billowing out in the water.

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This show has inspired me to go start up my own food truck.  People like eating cold French fries with cold gravy, right?  

Totally! Just call them Disenchanted fries. 

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

This show has inspired me to go start up my own food truck.  People like eating cold French fries with cold gravy, right?  

Yum yum!

[KAOS Agent]

So Sabine was only missing a food safety certificate. I was looking at volunteering for concessions at Spring Training this year and that required that certificate. It cost $10 ($5 for volunteers) and involved a 90 minute online course. In less than two hours, Sabine could have had herself covered. 

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Not to mention, she wasn't even appropriately dressed for Gator-hunter. Nice mess she'd have been in if she had fallen in with those voluminous gown billowing out in the water.

And it seemed like she was wearing a different gown than the coronation gown because the neckline was different. So she managed to change into a different ballgown but couldn't have changed into her leather pants resistance fighter outfit? And if she didn't change, why not? Is it a good use of her kingdom's resources for her to wear an incredibly expensive ballgown to go hunting in the swamp? Were things so urgent that she didn't have a few minutes to spare to change into more practical clothes? We won't even get into the idea of walking down a nice path through a swamp. I guess they don't have swamps in the Vancouver area, but this is another one of those things where it sounds like the writers didn't even look up the Wikipedia entry on what a swamp really is.

11 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

So Sabine was only missing a food safety certificate. I was looking at volunteering for concessions at Spring Training this year and that required that certificate. It cost $10 ($5 for volunteers) and involved a 90 minute online course. In less than two hours, Sabine could have had herself covered. 

It sounded like she'd applied and done the work to get the certificate, but it hadn't come in the mail yet, so she had it but didn't have the documentation. It would have made a lot more sense if there had been some indication that Facilier had interfered with that, either intercepting the mail by bribing a mailman or pulling strings at whatever agency issued it, so it didn't get sent. Otherwise, his plan is awfully iffy because it depends on her having something wrong with her paperwork. It only works if he's done something to make sure there's something wrong with her paperwork, and then we still have the issue of how someone who'd gone to "cooking school (ugh)" and presumably was already working in some kind of food service field didn't already have that bit of paperwork. She'd have probably had that before she even had all the permits for the food truck. She'd have needed that to have sold the beignets in her pop-up at the chicken place -- or else Jacinda would have had the certificate, in which case, why didn't she call her partner in the business?

The whole plot of this episode could be used to illustrate the TV Tropes entry on contrivance.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

but this is another one of those things where it sounds like the writers didn't even look up the Wikipedia entry on what a swamp really is.

Or a dictionary. *snerk*

[tennisgurl]

Finally got to see the episode, and...*sigh* 

Of course, Tiana and Sabine, the only newbie I actually liked, gets the A&E "strong and independent" treatment. Oh, I guess the writers actually bothered to watch Princess and the Frog over the break (or at least read its Wikipedia page) and, of course, they still manage to screw things up. Tiana was tough when she needed to be and was a type A workaholic who had to learn to relax and go with the flow sometimes, but that was because she was poor and had a hard life, and wanted to achieve a seemingly impossible dream. She wasn't just a jerk to random people she met off the street (or swamp) for no reason. And, yeah, why was Tiana such a jerk to Naveen at first? Yeah he seemed a bit full of himself right away, but he was offering to help them for no cost, and wasn't mean or insulting to them, why is he suddenly "no hero" or whatever? You've known this guy for thirty seconds, you know nothing about him! And with her princess backstory, she doesn't really have the hardscrabble past her animated self had, so her more abrasive side was less understandable. Of course, all these personality traits have pretty much come right the fuck out of nowhere, both for Sabine and Tiana, who has seemed pretty chill in the past, if a little niece as Tiana, so all this being all abrasive and type A seems totally random. Like they just decided to actually be more like the movie, but without actually getting why the movie worked. Pretty classic Once. This whole episode could have been saved if the Alligator was actually just trying to find a venue to play his trumpet, and the whole thing was a big misunderstanding. 

Also, I am still trying figure out what Tianas kingdom works, what king she was resisting, why shes a princess who was apparently getting kicked out of her home before the resistance (seriously, what was this resistance?!?!) started, why is Regina still hanging out there, how big is this kingdom, and why does fantasy New Orleans have a monarchy anyway, or is this just another part of the DisEnchanted Forest? Or is this a different world? Or a part of the different DisEnchanted Forest that Murderella is from? Then where is Naveens kingdom? Were they involved in this great off screen war? Having a fantasy version of Louisiana is actually a cool idea, but they wont commit to it, and its mostly just another EF, but with Alligators instead of Crocodiles, and witch doctors instead of Dark Ones. 

I did actually like the guy who played Naveen (and he is pretty attracive) and he was ok in Seattle too, and Doctor Facilier is certainly a better villain than the other losers we have had around (the actor is very watchable, and his character actually seems alive in a way most of the Newbies haven't been), but I spent most of this episode being bored. I mean, we get Tiana hunting gators in a magical swamp in a ballgown and balling out some random dude she almost got killed, and we get the magical adventures of...food trucks and food permits! Feel the magic yall! Also, if Sabine is so on it, why does she keep making these dumb obvious business mistakes? And it would be nice to get some backstory as to why she gets so eye rolly about this random guy from cooking school she seemed to have had a thing with. Also, "cooking school" is the vaguest thing in a season full of vague. 

Henry's podcast sound unbelievably boring. Its so Henry though. "Who wouldn't want to listen to my ramblings about this women I have a crush on, and a convoluted real estate scheme?!?!" Yeah, I am so sure that the world will be following this one instantly, instantly forgetting about those lame podcasts about stuff that people actually give a shit about. I do, on the other hand, enjoy Zelena slinging drinks land snarking about peoples fashion choices. More of that, and less pretentious Henry narration and his stupid obsession with mix tapes. Oy, if A&E are so obsessed with the 80s, why not just set the story in the 80s, or send them to an 80s world, instead of making Henry act like some nostalgia drenched 30 something?

The queen conversation between Tiana and Regina made me want to throw stuff. Oh yeah, Regina totally always put her people first. And by that, I mean she put them first through the trap door into the pit of sharks while laughing evilly. Even as a good guy, Regina never much amazed me with her selfless leadership skills (she was always more interested in her boyfriend or crying), and as a bad guy, she was a horrifyingly murderous tyrant. She is literally the worst role model I can imagine for a monarch, or any ruler ever. 

[Camera One]

It was weird when Lucy said Henry never "left my bedside" as a way to convince Jacinda to invite him to date night.  How would she know?  That also sounded really weird coming from a kid.  

I suppose with Naveen, they tried to pay some homage to his movie version, with Sabine's line that he has always had everything handed to him.  They could have stressed that a little more with his parents, since an investor randomly offering him money isn't necessarily the best example of privilege.  Presumably, an investor saw promise in his food cart.  They also hardly fleshed out his backstory in the flashback, except with the "reveal" that the alligator killed his brother, which sort of came out of nowhere.

The worst exchange in the episode was probably:
HENRY: "Why do you call me that - Henry Mills?" 
JACINDA: "You don't like it?" 
HENRY: "No, no, I do... It's so
JACINDA: "What?"
HENRY "It's so you." 

Huh?  Why would it be so Jacinda to call someone by their full name?

[Shanna Marie]

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I suppose with Naveen, they tried to pay some homage to his movie version, with Sabine's line that he has always had everything handed to him.  They could have stressed that a little more with his parents, since an investor randomly offering him money isn't necessarily the best example of privilege.  Presumably, an investor saw promise in his food cart.

The Hyperion Heights part of the story is somewhat akin to the movie version, with Tiana having the dream of opening her own place, and then Naveen's drama threatens it. But I don't feel like either of them were fleshed out enough. I guess we can assume that she's not rolling in family money (speaking of family, where's her mother in Hyperion Heights?) since she's rooming with Jacinda and putting money in a rent jar, but we know nothing about her background. Movie Tiana was working multiple jobs to save up for her restaurant, but we don't know what kind of job Sabine had. Did she quit that job to start the food truck, or has she been frantically working around the clock, spending time on the truck between jobs?

Meanwhile, I guess Drew had some sort of privilege if he could just work in his parents' restaurant when he flunked out of cooking school, but having an investor just means he was able to talk someone into giving him money. Was it a contact through his parents? Did Sabine try to get any investors only to get turned down, or was she stubbornly doing it all herself?

They seemed to try to put movie Tiana's irritation with Naveen into the flashback, but out of context it didn't work. In the movie, she had every right to be angry at him because she got cursed when she tried to help him, and then he was basically useless, with no experience with work, so she was having to do everything. That has absolutely nothing to do with what was going on with show Tiana and Naveen. And then the present-day stuff veered from the movie when Drewveen turned out to be complicit in what was going on and was following orders, while movie Naveen was an innocent victim of someone else's greed and ambition.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But I don't feel like either of them were fleshed out enough.

If they're not getting fleshed out in this episode, I suspect it's not going to happen.  This was very similar to the lacklustre development that Jasmine and Aladdin got in "Street Rats", where both characters were still ill-defined and the viewer didn't have any reason to root for either of them, individually or together, so for the rest of the season, they were just sort of there.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Huh?  Why would it be so Jacinda to call someone by their full name?

He likes it because it reminds him of Mayor Mills calling everybody by their full or last names.

I may actually need to watch The Princess and The Frog now. Not because this show inspired me or anything, but because I want to optimize my criticism and compare.

Edited March 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Facilier said "I miss my Queen".  So let see... when Regina was the Evil Queen, she was secretly lonely, but she had a No. 1 Fan!, Facilier, an innocent young man from bayou bordering Snow's kingdom, who saves her from a giant alligator that could swim between multiverses .  However, she rejected him, thinking she wasn't good enough and feeling she didn't deserve love.  Facilier thought maybe he wasn't worthy of his Queen because he didn't know magic, so he learned voodoo and came back to Regina, only to realize that she wanted the side of him without magic.  Now, he's back to find The Guardian, who can take away his Voodooness because he'd do anything for Regina's love.  All the jackassery stuff Facilier did in between doesn't matter.  All you need is love.  The end.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Facilier said "I miss my Queen".  So let see... when Regina was the Evil Queen, she was secretly lonely, but she had a No. 1 Fan!, Facilier, an innocent young man from bayou bordering Snow's kingdom, who saves her from a giant alligator that could swim between multiverses .  However, she rejected him, thinking she wasn't good enough and feeling she didn't deserve love.  Facilier thought maybe he wasn't worthy of his Queen because he didn't know magic, so he learned voodoo and came back to Regina, only to realize that she wanted the side of him without magic.  Now, he's back to find The Guardian, who can take away his Voodooness because he'd do anything for Regina's love.  All the jackassery stuff Facilier did in between doesn't matter.  All you need is love.  The end.

 

#NoSpoilers! ;)

Edited March 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

Huh?  Why would it be so Jacinda to call someone by their full name?

Only Henry would find this romantic. It's not even a nickname like "Charming"! Or a shortening like "Swan". It's such a peculiar thing to find endearing, which Henry does, from his expression.

11 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 And then the present-day stuff veered from the movie when Drewveen turned out to be complicit in what was going on and was following orders, while movie Naveen was an innocent victim of someone else's greed and ambition.

I think Drewveen doesn't have a choice in the present-day stuff. He's sort of Facilier's slave I guess. 

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Facilier, an innocent young man from bayou bordering Snow's kingdom, who saves her from a giant alligator that could swim between multiverses .  

Travel via Gator-portal--an interesting variant to Mermaid travel. Yet another method of Inter-realm travel Rumple missed. 

8 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I may actually need to watch The Princess and The Frog now. Not because this show inspired me or anything, but because I want to optimize my criticism and compare.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Mitch]

I like Dr. Voodoo ..its about time we had a male villain besides Rump..I also like Regina being tempted by him in the real world and a "flirt" with the darkside could be interesting as long as she does not backtrack..sigh, but I know it will not be as this show does not do subtle at all well. But yes, how did Regina have time to get it on with the Dr. Voodoo while being all EQ and hunting Snow and decimating the village populations, and how did he get to her version of the EF? They really aren't even trying to explain things anymore.  I wish that he was in last year's show...it would be interesting to see him and the EQ together and him trying to seduce Regina to the darkside and I would have loved the howls from posters on Regina being in a triangle with herself!

I think the combination of witchcraft and voodoo doesnt' mix well with this shows take on Disney's goofy "biblybopity-do" magic but I like it better. At least they have to have spells, etc and it seems more sinister, rather then goofy. 

I like the three villains teaming up and as usual, Zelena gets the best lines leaving Regina looking like a grumpy cat all the time. How long have they been in HH that Regina would have a "Bon Jovi" tat?  They were in SB in the 80s and 90s during the height of Bon Jovi fame and I can't see Mayor Mills getting a tat. Speaking of, why is Regina still wearing the aging hipster look. She really looks terrible in it compared to when they showed her in the dress for the wedding. I want to see a scene where she comes out of a shop with a black business suit on..."There, that feels much better!"

The alligator CGI was bad but it seemed appropriately weird for their world. The CGI starts to bug in the LWOM as it looks even dumber there.

How many sets does HH have? SB seemed like a real town as they filmed in a real town and picked appropriate homes and places to gather. Here it is the bar, the viaduct and Cinderhardlookings apt. I don't get a sense of a neighborhood here.  The Henry actor is really charisma free in this role..he looks uncomfortable  and they should have made him be cursed as a bitter pr*ck as he was in WD, now he is just dorky charm free Henry all grown up.

And finally...a) why the hell would a random kiss break the curse...(Snow and Charms kiss didn't break the first curse) and why would Henry die if it broke, they are in the LWOM and Rump had to smuggle magic in first time.

[KingOfHearts]

@Rumsy4, that quote fits me perfectly. I laughed. Thank you. (I loved that line too, because it was so off-the-wall in the context.)

Quote

Only Henry would find this romantic. It's not even a nickname like "Charming"! Or a shortening like "Swan". It's such a peculiar thing to find endearing, which Henry does, from his expression.

If Henry were treated more as tragic Norman Bates type character who's always having awkward exchanges and mommy issues, his character could really work. Alas, A&E think he's some great Gary Sue who can woo all the girls at the disco.

Edited March 13, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Mabinogia]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

If Henry were treated more as tragic Norman Bates type character who's always having awkward exchanges and mommy issues, his character could really work.

I wouldn't have given the show up if they'd gone that route. Well, Blanderella probably still would have driven me away, but not if Henry bates killed her and shoved her corpse into a rocker. 

[Camera One]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Alas, A&E think he's some great Gary Sue who can woo all the girls at the disco.

 

Henry is their self-insert.  He's the geeky boyfriend whose love of mix cassettes and 80's movies makes him ultra desirable.  Look at Henry in this episode... could he be any sexier?

Edited March 14, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Look at Henry in this episode... could he be any sexier?

Could Jacinda be any more selfless?

[Rumsy4]

53 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

Look at Henry in this episode... could he be any sexier?

Could Jacinda be any more selfless?

Could Tiana be any more badass?

[CCTC]

18 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Could Tiana be any more badass?

Could the show and its final season go out on a better note?

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, CCTC said:

Could the show and its final season go out on a better note?

Are A&E the master storytellers?

[Camera One]

I rewatched some scenes from this episode because it kept cutting in and out Friday night.  I don't remember all the scenes I missed 30 seconds of, though. 

The scene where Jacinda and Henry are discussing her mixtape was so excruciatingly painful to rewatch.  I had second-hand embarrassment listening to their "romantic" banter.  

I also rewatched the scene with Tiana and Naveen on the boat.  Some of the dialogue was still clunky.  "I'm hunting this gator because... he killed my brother."  "It did?"  What that response necessary?  A pause and then "I'm sorry" would have been enough. 

It seemed like in this scene, Tiana was acting the way she was because she was stressed about what a Queen was supposed to be.  Stuff like this needed to be developed right from the beginning.  It's sort of counterproductive when you reveal the characters' motivations halfway through the episode, after the viewer is already irritated with them.  

So, who do you think inserted the page into Lucy's book?  Did they ever explained who put Page 23 into the book?  

Edited March 15, 2018 by Camera One

[millahnna]

Dafuq did I just watch? I've been way more forgiving of this season than others (and of later season of the OG cast stuff for that matter) but I may not make it through to cancellation at this rate.

[darkestboy]

Eh, not a great episode. Not keen on Naveen being a stooge for Facillier and I thought his scenes with Tiana were a bit off.

I did like the Regina and Facillier scenes though. There's some chemistry there, which is nice.

Henry is a terrible podcaster and the Jacinda scenes with him are still boring but at least Lucy stopped them from kissing.

Nice scenes with Regina and Zelena though, 6/10

[Lady Calypso]

Oh nice. They managed to ruin Tiana too. Thanks, show, for turning Tiana into a petty selfish princess. I really appreciate you ruining one of the new characters I actually really liked. Plus, her romance with Naveen is forced. 

Now, don't touch Alice! She's the last one I can tolerate! Well, besides Drizella/Ivy, but I think she's safe from being ruined.

Oh, a new pairing with Facilier and Regina....that I don't care about, at best. Also, Facilier got on my nerves in this episode. Why? No particular reason. Not that Facilier and Regina's scenes didn't work, but Regina has enough to deal with in her scenes. I don't need a forced romance, especially if it's going to have Regina step back several steps as a character. 

Naveen/Tiana also pissed me right off. Their dialogue was completely forced. "It did?" No, Tiana, he's messing with you. No shit the alligator killed his brother. No, show, they're not going to be some other version of Snow and Charming. Stop making it to be that. Also, the Sabine/Drew stuff was obnoxious.

Henry is just so blah. He's literally nothing more than a supporting character to all the females. Which, you know, is fine if it wasn't for the fact that Henry was supposed to be the main lead and is part of the first six seasons, even if the actor is different. However, I did enjoy Henry's confusion with Facilier randomly popping in. 

Yawn to all of these romances. They can't replicate the actual good romances of the original series. And yes, I now will consider this season a piss poor sequel. The best scene was Rumple, Regina, and Zelena in Roni's bar, not to my surprise.

[Rushmoras]

Hmm, so... what's her name can use other person's quality or what not certificate? Why not just write down "Everything is up to standards" on a peace of paper while you are at it. Expected more from Voo-doo Doc, but he simply appears to annoy people and then disappears. He was more creepy in the animated movie, here not so much. And, of course, everyone knows Regina The EQ, even those from another reality. Another boring episode where nothing really important happen, but everyone acts as if they are doing really important things. I might find it funny, if I had watched it while drinking alcohol.

 

P.S. So, Rumple is not pretending to not be Rumple in front of Regina now? Did I miss something in the last episode or some key moments in this one?

Edited March 28, 2018 by Rushmoras

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

P.S. So, Rumple is not pretending to not be Rumple in front of Regina now? Did I miss something in the last episode or some key moments in this one?

Based on his paper-thin explanation, it was because he had an alliance with Victoria and now that it's over, he's free to chat up Gina and Lena.

[Rushmoras]

7 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Based on his paper-thin explanation, it was because he had an alliance with Victoria and now that it's over, he's free to chat up Gina and Lena.

Ah, must have missed his explanation then. Oh, well, on the other hand, I watched this episode voiced over in Rusian with casino ads inserted, which actually livened the episode for me. Imagine, the scene were Regina kissing Voodoo Doc and then a man from a Commercial says: "F***k movies, go to a casino instead".

[rogvortex58]

Finding out Regina got a tattoo while she was cursed. Priceless.

[Camera One]

On 3/11/2018 at 5:28 PM, Shanna Marie said:

And I guess the doctor and the blind witch are also fairy tale characters. The blind witch is obvious, given the gingerbread houses, but I wonder who the doctor was.

The fairytale identity of the doctor will surely come up again, LOL.   

I freeze-framed Henry's H-Town Website...

Quote

                                         H-TOWN

-------------------Just A Guy Living in Seattle-------------------------------

Review of H-Town
240 Reviews

Never even knew Hyperion Heights existed!!!            *****

Super fresh podcast, dude.  Loved the NPR vibe and the slow story burn.  I was hooked right to the end.  But now I have to know --- who killed Victoria Belfrey?!?  Must. Have. Season. Two. RIGHT. NOW.  - Jerome S.

Binged the whole thing in one night!!!                     *****

Started listening to this podcast on my way home.  I didn't even realize that I was sitting in my driveway half an hour later, mesmerized by your wonderful podcast.  Even though I've never been to Seattle, I feel like I've walked the streets of Hyperion Heights, plucked a few of Lucy's hyacinths, and eaten at Mr. Cluck's...

Those reviews were so dumb they were funny.  Were they wish fulfilment reviews they hoped they would get for Season 7?  

I'm not sure what Henry's story even was.  It was "slow burn" alright.  They saved a community garden and Lucy planted some hyacinths.  Her mother Jacinda works at Mr. Cluck's.  Victoria was caught holding a "girl" Eloise Gardiner captive and she was sent to jail.  But then she was released.  Then, Lucy went into a coma, and Victoria died, and Lucy woke up.  The end.  

Scintillating stuff.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm not sure what Henry's story even was.  It was "slow burn" alright.  They saved a community garden and Lucy planted some hyacinths.  Her mother Jacinda works at Mr. Cluck's.  Victoria was caught holding a "girl" Eloise Gardiner captive and she was sent to jail.  But then she was released.  Then, Lucy went into a coma, and Victoria died, and Lucy woke up.  The end.  

I was laughing out loud (when I wasn't saying "Shut up, Henry!") during that opening monologue that I guess was his podcast. All the questions he asked, like why Victoria was trying to take over Hyperion Heights, were particularly amusing, considering

Spoiler

that those questions were never answered by the show. I bet his listeners ended up frustrated when nothing was really resolved.

When did he have time to record and produce a whole season of a podcast? How big a gap was there between episodes (of this show, not the podcast)? Because not too long ago, he was running off to San Francisco with Roni and then hanging out at the hospital, and now suddenly he has a podcast that's never been mentioned.

Mostly, this episode is pointless. It's the perfect example of how they follow a pivotal episode that has shattering consequences with another character's centric that's entirely unrelated. We see the newspaper article about Victoria and Henry mentions her, and we see Jacinda and Lucy at her grave, but what we don't see is Victoria's daughters reacting to their mother's death. Ivy has done all this to get revenge on her mother, only to have her mother sacrifice herself for her at the last second. But we don't get to see her at all because we've got to watch Sabine and her food truck dealing with the horror of not having all her paperwork.

Spoiler

Which also turned out to be pointless. Did we ever learn why Facilier needed Naveen (or whatever his curse name was) to get in good with Sabine? I don't recall. I certainly didn't have any of that "ooh, now I know why he was doing that" reaction to watching this episode with the benefit of hindsight.

Tiana/Sabine was replaced by a pod person in this episode. We get to see her turn into a shrieking harpy in the past, as she insults a person who could help her, apparently because she wants to prove herself the greatest hero. She goes alligator hunting in a ballgown (when even Ella had changed into pants). And after all her bitchiness about being the best hunter, she starts shrieking and panicking when the alligator shows up. In the present, the person who drafted Jacinda into helping her make beignets and let Lucy help out and even design a logo is suddenly a control freak who can't work with anyone else, and the totally together control freak doesn't have her paperwork in order.

Although Lady Tremaine was on their side when Drizella showed up with her "prophecy," we're back to then talking about Tiana becoming queen because they won the revolution against Lady Tremaine. And wouldn't they have been revolting against the king?

Basically, this one is filler. I think the best part may have been WHook's line about siding with the alligator over the idiots with him. I may have inserted the idiots part, but you know it was implied.

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was laughing out loud (when I wasn't saying "Shut up, Henry!") during that opening monologue that I guess was his podcast. All the questions he asked, like why Victoria was trying to take over Hyperion Heights, were particularly amusing, considering

Was Henry supposed to be some investigative reporter in this podcast?  Because I don't remember him finding out anything about Victoria.  Was he just repeating what was probably already in the newspaper?   He didn't have any insider information, unless his podcast was exposing private information about Jacinda's custody arrangements.

Quote

When did he have time to record and produce a whole season of a podcast? How big a gap was there between episodes (of this show, not the podcast)? Because not too long ago, he was running off to San Francisco with Roni and then hanging out at the hospital, and now suddenly he has a podcast that's never been mentioned.

Good question.  Ivy suggested the podcast idea to Henry at the beginning of "Pretty in Blue".  By the end of that episode, Henry had left with Roni for San Francisco.  "One Little Tear" must not have taken long because Henry and Regina only reached Zelena's exercise studio at the beginning of "The Eighth Witch".  And then Henry was apparently at Lucy's bedside through that entire episode, plus "Secret Garden", so I seriously doubt he was recording the podcast.

This episode begins a week after Victoria's death, so Henry must have recorded an entire season that week and garnered soooo many followers.

EDIT: I just looked at the transcript of this episode, and:

Quote

SABINE: I was just listening to Henry's podcast.  He just dropped the first episode with the interview you did.
JACINDA: Oh, H-Town.  How was it?
SABINE: I gotta admit, he's cooking up a pretty good mystery.  And just so you know, you two are some of the main ingredients.
LUCY: Cool.  Isn't that cool, Mom?

So the set designer who wrote Henry's website didn't read the script, if there was only one episode of the podcast.  Spinning a good mystery?  As in Henry was basically just asking rhetorical questions for his entire podcast?  What did Jacinda say in the interview?  She seemed really sad at the gravesite, so I doubt she exposed Victoria's secrets in the podcast.

Quote

Mostly, this episode is pointless. It's the perfect example of how they follow a pivotal episode that has shattering consequences with another character's centric that's entirely unrelated. We see the newspaper article about Victoria and Henry mentions her, and we see Jacinda and Lucy at her grave, but what we don't see is Victoria's daughters reacting to their mother's death. Ivy has done all this to get revenge on her mother, only to have her mother sacrifice herself for her at the last second. But we don't get to see her at all because we've got to watch Sabine and her food truck dealing with the horror of not having all her paperwork.

It was like the 1B premiere following Graham remembering and dying, we got a pedestrian small town election.

Gothel is dangerous, and now she has magic because of Anastasia.  But she's conveniently taking a break from evil this week.

Regina was soooooo worried Henry could die if he and Jacinda True Love Kisses, but now she couldn't care less and isn't monitoring Henry and Jacinda's date nights.  Thank goodness that page suddenly appeared in Lucy's book, right?

Quote

Although Lady Tremaine was on their side when Drizella showed up with her "prophecy," we're back to then talking about Tiana becoming queen because they won the revolution against Lady Tremaine. And wouldn't they have been revolting against the king?

That line stuck out at me too.  Unless Tiana and the "resistance" defeated Tremaine and the king, and it was afterwards that Tremaine decided to help them stop Drizella.  But who knows, we never got a flashback for that.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Camera One

[Camera One]

On 3/12/2018 at 7:20 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Movie Tiana was working multiple jobs to save up for her restaurant, but we don't know what kind of job Sabine had. Did she quit that job to start the food truck, or has she been frantically working around the clock, spending time on the truck between jobs?

I guess the one thing the rewatch taught me was that Sabine was working at Mr. Cluck's (so much for that cooking school, eh?).  In a previous episode, she got a call from "Louie" (same boss as Jacinda), saying she was late for work.

[Speakeasy]

On 3/10/2018 at 2:35 AM, KingOfHearts said:

It's not romantic to call someone by their full name, "Henry Mills". It's like Regina calling Emma, "Ms. Swan" to be impersonal. 

Crazy theory perhaps, but given how many people were pulling for those two to get together, maybe the writers wanted to recreate that magic 😉

My main takeaway from this episode is I want to know Baron Samedi's backstory, not Facilier*, the curse persona; I need to know what possible justification the curse could come up with for a successful Seattle real estate developer (or whatever he was) with a posh English accent to be named 'Baron Samedi'. How do those things fit together?

Spoiler

*though I have to wonder if Tiana ever discovered that her trusted friend and advisor was screwing the necromancer who enslaved her boyfriend.

Also, given how awkward it would be to fit a Shadow Queen romance into Regina's already eventful reign in Misthaven, I find myself wondering if their affair is a big misunderstanding; he's actually in love with Pirate Queen Wish Regina or Evil Queen Serum-clone Regina and has just run into the wrong one. So many bloody Reginas these days...

Edited November 9, 2019 by Speakeasy
Corrections

[KingOfHearts]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

SABINE: I gotta admit, he's cooking up a pretty good mystery.  And just so you know, you two are some of the main ingredients.

Who wrote this dialogue? LOL. Those are some cheesy-as-hell Tiana puns.

Quote

It was like the 1B premiere following Graham remembering and dying, we got a pedestrian small town election.

I seem to recall Lost doing this a lot too.

"Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were captured by the Others!"

Next episode: "So uh, what are Sun, Jin, and Sayid doing on that boat?"

Quote

I guess the one thing the rewatch taught me was that Sabine was working at Mr. Cluck's (so much for that cooking school, eh?).  In a previous episode, she got a call from "Louie" (same boss as Jacinda), saying she was late for work.

Wait really? I never caught that. I always assumed Sabine worked somewhere else and that Jacinda just let her "borrow" Mr. Cluck's kitchen. My memory is truly fading on this masterpiece of a season. The horror.

Edited November 9, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

It was like the 1B premiere following Graham remembering and dying, we got a pedestrian small town election.

But at least that was real follow-up, since the election was about replacing him. And we did see Henry's grief and the way he distanced himself from Emma to protect her from Regina because he was afraid of what Regina would do. They may have skimped on some of the emotional fallout, but at least the plot dealt with the consequences rather than having the next episode have absolutely nothing to do with it and not even having the people most affected in it.

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Spinning a good mystery?  As in Henry was basically just asking rhetorical questions for his entire podcast? 

That's what it sounded like. There must have been more, since we didn't hear any of the interviews, but I don't know what Jacinda would have had to say, other than maybe talking about the rent going up, and that's not exactly earthshattering. There was no real reason behind anything Victoria did other than the curse, so I can't imagine it would have been at all interesting to anyone who didn't know about the curse, and I doubt that revelation would make it into the podcast. "Rich person tries to buy up property and prices current residents out of neighborhood" is hardly breaking news or a deep mystery. He might have hooked listeners on episode one when he raised all the unanswered questions, but I'm sure they'd be disappointed when those questions never got answered.

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I seem to recall Lost doing this a lot too.

"Jack, Kate, and Sawyer were captured by the Others!"

Next episode: "So uh, what are Sun, Jin, and Sayid doing on that boat?"

"Lost" did it as well due to their centric format, but there was usually more follow-through with a B plot. 

To me, when they did this, it was often higher concept.  At the beginning of Season 2, they tried to continue from the previous finale showing events from the perspectives of different characters in separate episodes, and we find how one group in one place affected events in another place, and then jump to a different group in the next episode.  So in that Season 3 example, it was a bit different.  Episode 1 showed Jack/Kate/Sawyer captured.  Episode 2 returned to what happened with Sayid/Sun/Jin on the boat, but in the B plot, we still see Jack/Kate/Sawyer plus the Others finding out about Sayid/Sun/Jin acquiring a boat and trying to deal with it, so the two storylines intersected in a key way.  I think in that episode, the husband was being a jerk to Sawyer while the wife went to confront Sayid/Sun/Jin on the boat and something bad happens, and that ends up affecting Jack/Kate/Sawyer.

It was still frustrating to divert away from the "action", but to me, it was one of the charms of "Lost" since it usually felt like there was careful thought behind it.  With "Once Upon a Time", very little was thought through.

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

But at least that was real follow-up, since the election was about replacing him. And we did see Henry's grief and the way he distanced himself from Emma to protect her from Regina because he was afraid of what Regina would do. They may have skimped on some of the emotional fallout, but at least the plot dealt with the consequences rather than having the next episode have absolutely nothing to do with it and not even having the people most affected in it.

Yes, the 1B premiere wasn't the best example because, as you said, it did show Henry's response and the story was about replacing Graham as Sheriff.  I guess I was thinking more about how "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" seemed like such a big game changer, but in reality, none of the big things mattered.  Emma didn't suspect Regina in Graham's death.  Graham remembering didn't start a trend and didn't trigger any more memories in Mary Margaret.  The plot just reset, and Graham might as well have just left town for another job.

That was where I found similarity with this episode.  The big villain Gothel now had magic but it was irrelevant.  Victoria was now dead, but it didn't matter because Lucy was with Jacinda already anyway.  The paternity test results were a moot point.  The plot reset with Lucy trying to get her parents back together again.  Plus it was way worse than Season 1 because Ivy - the main character affected - was MIA.

Spoiler

It would have made more sense for Ivy to get a centric in this episode, and then they could have written her off earlier, considering they weren't planning to keep her anyway.  Dragging it out weakened the potential impact.  And of course, Ivy's exit episode was just so poorly written, as we'll discuss in a few weeks.

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

There must have been more, since we didn't hear any of the interviews, but I don't know what Jacinda would have had to say, other than maybe talking about the rent going up, and that's not exactly earthshattering. There was no real reason behind anything Victoria did other than the curse, so I can't imagine it would have been at all interesting to anyone who didn't know about the curse, and I doubt that revelation would make it into the podcast. "Rich person tries to buy up property and prices current residents out of neighborhood" is hardly breaking news or a deep mystery. He might have hooked listeners on episode one when he raised all the unanswered questions, but I'm sure they'd be disappointed when those questions never got answered.

Yes, without the supernatural stuff (that Henry had no idea of), the story would have been really lacking.  If Henry, Rogers and Roni (the original "team") had uncovered major secrets about Victoria, that would be different.  Why would listeners care about Jacinda and Lucy, the two big "ingredients"?  Going to Hyperion Heights to pick her hyacinths?  LOL.  

15 hours ago, Speakeasy said:

My main takeaway from this episode is I want to know Baron Samedi's backstory, not Facilier*, the curse persona

Apparently, Victoria pushed him out of Hyperion Heights, which doesn't explain how he got his memories back or how he found Naveen.  It seems like Season 7 paid very little attention the backstories of the cursed persona.  Kelly was a fitness instructor, full stop and that's it.  Most of the Hyperion Heights characters including Facilier, got a clever Curse Name.  Was there a reason the Wicked Witch of the West got Kelly?

Edited November 9, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

I guess I was thinking more about how "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" seemed like such a big game changer, but in reality, none of the big things mattered.  Emma didn't suspect Regina in Graham's death.  Graham remembering didn't start a trend and didn't trigger any more memories in Mary Margaret.  The plot just reset, and Graham might as well have just left town for another job.

I think that's mostly a problem in retrospect, rather than in the episode that immediately followed. Graham's death may have stopped the trend of people remembering, and we would have hoped that Emma would have eventually figured out that Regina was responsible once she learned magic really was real. But that all got swept (with bad technique) under the rug when they went all-in on the Regina redemption.

This episode wiped the slate clean in the very next episode, where nothing that happened in the previous episodes really mattered all that much other than Henry and Jacinda meeting and Sabine getting a food truck. All the fuss over Victoria was moot, Lucy might as well have never been sick, and Regina and Zelena and Rogers and Weaver are off in their own plots that have very little to do with what came before.

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Was there a reason the Wicked Witch of the West got Kelly?

I was thinking it was because "kelly" is a shade of green.

[Camera One]

All the problems in Season 7 is compounded 50 fold from their issues in Season 1, but I was personally really disappointed with "Desperate Souls" way back when.  I expected Emma to begin investigating Graham's cause of death, and Mary Margaret to begin to get flashes of her life... just any forward momentum towards Emma remembering after that breakthrough in the winter finale.  

You'd think in this episode that Rogers would be out trying to track down Eloise.  Instead, Rogers already believed Eloise was a cult leader and was involved in Victoria's death.  I suppose Ivy could have told Rogers that she saw Eloise there.  Still, Rogers was blaming himself in this episode, so I would have expected him to be obsessed with finding Eloise in his spare time.  Even a Rogers/Whook centric would have been more appropriate for this episode than a Tiana story.

Regina and Zelena should also have been a little more concerned about getting their powers back now that Gothel had magic.  

[Shanna Marie]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Even a Rogers/Whook centric would have been more appropriate for this episode than a Tiana story.

Definitely. This was an utterly pointless story that's not connected to anything else that's happened. What we really needed to do was follow up on Ivy and Anastasia in this episode. The flashbacks could have been about them as sisters, with Rapunzel as their mother (since it seems they wanted the Victoria actress out of there), maybe showing some of the aftermath of Anastasia's death and Drizella's reaction, with the beginnings of her being the wicked stepsister. Second best would be a Rogers and Weaver centric that has them talking to Ivy and Anastasia as they investigate Victoria's death and then have to investigate the other killings. Sabine and her food truck/Tiana walking through the bayou was such a random follow-up to the previous episode that it brought all narrative momentum to a screeching halt.

Spoiler

And it's even more pointless when none of it amounts to anything. I don't know why they set up the whole thing with Naveen and Facilier. It's like they had something in mind but never got around to it.

15 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Regina and Zelena should also have been a little more concerned about getting their powers back now that Gothel had magic.  

Wasn't the whole thing with Henry being poisoned because Regina had to take him to a world without magic to save him from the magical poison? But now we have Anastasia with magic, Gothel with magic, and Baron Samdi is doing magic, but Henry's okay. He's only in danger if the memory part of the curse breaks. I guess if he remembers he's poisoned, he'll die, kind of like Hook only being a Dark One if he remembered it.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Wasn't the whole thing with Henry being poisoned because Regina had to take him to a world without magic to save him from the magical poison? But now we have Anastasia with magic, Gothel with magic, and Baron Samdi is doing magic, but Henry's okay. He's only in danger if the memory part of the curse breaks. I guess if he remembers he's poisoned, he'll die, kind of like Hook only being a Dark One if he remembered it.

It really is ridiculous when it's broken down like that.  Yet Regina had forgotten that Henry and Jacinda might kiss at any time.  Plus this Curse wasn't built around Henry and Jacinda, so what makes her so sure their TLK would break the Curse?  What if some other couple TLK?  The last thing Regina should be thinking about is the hot Dr. Facilier.

Quote

Sabine and her food truck/Tiana walking through the bayou was such a random follow-up to the previous episode that it brought all narrative momentum to a screeching halt.

I wonder if A&E still thought there might be a Season 8 at this point.  It seemed like they chose do a Tiana centric, for the sole purpose of bringing back Dr. Facilier.  He's the only connection between Tiana and any of the other main characters.  Ultimately, it was about giving Regina a storyline for 7B.

Spoiler

I seriously remember practically nothing about Dr. Facilier and his endgoal in 7B.  I guess I will be surprised (again).  This season is so forgettable it just keeps on giving.

11 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Wait really? I never caught that. I always assumed Sabine worked somewhere else and that Jacinda just let her "borrow" Mr. Cluck's kitchen. My memory is truly fading on this masterpiece of a season. The horror.

It was a throwaway line in "The Garden of Forking Paths".  The phone call from Louie interrupts Sabine's conversation with Jacinda, since apparently Perfectionist Sabine was already late for work.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

22 hours ago, Camera One said:

Plus this Curse wasn't built around Henry and Jacinda, so what makes her so sure their TLK would break the Curse?  What if some other couple TLK? 

That's what's so silly about Ivy's boast that in this curse there is no Savior. The Savior meant that only Emma could break the curse. The Charmings were magically proven true love, fell in love again under the curse, and kissed all the time without breaking it. But this curse doesn't have a Savior, so it seems like anyone could break it. Her guarantee to keep the curse from being broken was Henry being poisoned, but then the curse kept everyone from remembering that, so it didn't do much good.

[tennisgurl]

Henry's podcast sounds so boring! It doesent seem to have any real storyline, beyond Henry asking hypothetical questions, him hitting on some random woman, and an overly complex real estate scheme! Those "reviews" are so hilariously fake sounding, like Regina went online and wrote them all herself under fake names just so that Henry would feel better about his lame ass podcast. And isnt it weird that he is writing about not only the woman he is into but is not in an actual relationship with, and her young daughter? Its not cute, its pretty invasive and creepy, especially as Jacinda didnt seem to know much about it. 

God its like they realized that Sabine/Tiana is WAY more likable than the shows supposed leading lady, and decided to make her another "strong female character" who is seemingly always pissed at everyone for no reason so that we stop liking her as much. And since when is Sabine supposed to be super Type A? I thought a few weeks ago Jacinda was furious at her for being such a "dreamer" while Jacinda was the pragmatic one? Did someone just now watch the movie she is supposedly based on? Is that why Princess Tiana went from sweet and sheltered to resistance leader to pointlessly angry and confrontational all for no reason? Seriously, why was she being such a dick to Naveen for no reason, what the hell did this guy ever do to you? "How DARE you want to find and kill the ferocious creature that is killing my people and terrorizing the land for no payment with a slightly cocky attitude! You asshole!!!" Their whole relationship is, like much of Once at this point, just a cheap copy of the movie version without understanding what actually made it work. In the movie, Tiana was kind of abrasive and no nonsense because she had a tough life and had to work extra hard to achieve her dreams, and even then, she wasnt mean to people like she is here, and again, she is turning down help because she just doesent like some guys attitude! And she was annoyed by Naveens attitude because he wasnt taking their very serious situation seriously and thought that it was hurting their chances at not being frogs forever when their was a ticking clock, it wasnt just her having an instant hate on for a guy because...he likes to make jokes or something? He is still clearly on task and hunting the alligator, who cares how he does it as long as he isnt endangering people?!  Maybe she is just in a bad mood because she forgot to change into her adventure clothes and is traipsing around the swamp in a full ballgown for some reason? At least in her poorly explained resistance, she wore pants. And for a badass resistance leader, she sure did turn into a shrieking idiot when Naveen feel in the water...which was her fault in the first place. So now you've accidentally gotten the presumable heir to a neighboring kingdom disappeared, who was actually trying to help you, just after getting your kingdom back again, as your first act as Queen. I am sure THAT will be a hell of a story to tell diplomats that will come and visit with soon messages from the king and queen asking about where their only surviving son is. Yeah, you can tell that Regina is her queen role model, they are both clearly nailing this leadership thing!   

Speaking of, yeah Regina, go ahead and stick your tongue down the throat of the murderer and enemy of your new bestie. Such an awesome hero she is! 

I did enjoy Zelenas snark this episode. "The Dark One in denim?" 

[Speakeasy]

On 11/9/2019 at 7:04 PM, Camera One said:

  Reveal spoiler

It would have made more sense for Ivy to get a centric in this episode, and then they could have written her off earlier, considering they weren't planning to keep her anyway.  Dragging it out weakened the potential impact.  And of course, Ivy's exit episode was just so poorly written, as we'll discuss in a few weeks.

Apparently, Victoria pushed him out of Hyperion Heights, which doesn't explain how he got his memories back or how he found Naveen.  It seems like Season 7 paid very little attention the backstories of the cursed persona.  Kelly was a fitness instructor, full stop and that's it.  Most of the Hyperion Heights characters including Facilier, got a clever Curse Name.  

Is Baron Samedi a clever name for a Voodoo sorcerer? It seems too on the nose to me, and I just can't believe a real person would be named that unless it was a Freddy Mercury kind of thing where he changed his name. And even so, would you buy a house from a guy who changed his name to match the Voodoo king of the dead?

I'd have called him... I don't know. Mr. Smoke-as in Smoke and Mirrors, which possibly fits the cartoon better than this version, but whatever.

Was there any significance to the names Sabine or Tilly, for that matter?

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, Speakeasy said:

Is Baron Samedi a clever name for a Voodoo sorcerer? It seems too on the nose to me, and I just can't believe a real person would be named that unless it was a Freddy Mercury kind of thing where he changed his name. And even so, would you buy a house from a guy who changed his name to match the Voodoo king of the dead?

It's probably these Writers' definition of clever.

Quote

Was there any significance to the names Sabine or Tilly, for that matter?

Never thought about those two, but after some research...

Tillie is a character in a tale by the Dormouse in Chapter 7 of "Alice in Wonderland".

Googled Sabine and what came up was something about Star Wars, "Sabine Wren was a human female Mandalorian warrior and revolutionary leader during the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire."

[Speakeasy]

18 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Never thought about those two, but after some research...

Tillie is a character in a tale by the Dormouse in Chapter 7 of "Alice in Wonderland".

Googled Sabine and what came up was something about Star Wars, "Sabine Wren was a human female Mandalorian warrior and revolutionary leader during the early rebellion against the Galactic Empire."

Now it's possible I'm just being a snob here but I really like the first one, that is a clever reference which is relevant to the character, while the second one seems obnoxious to me.

[Camera One]

Dr. Facilier with his stupid voodoo tricks couldn't kill the alligator himself?  Heck, Naveen was planning to kill it anyway.  Tiana would have sent her troops anyway, even if he didn't reveal himself before the coronation.  The whole plotline was essentially pointless except for providing a meet abrasive for Tiana and Naveen.

This season's attempts at "ooh how intriguing; I wonder what their mysterious past together was" were particularly weak.  I couldn't care less about Regina's past with Dr. Facilier, nor Rumple's pasts with Gothel or Tremaine.  Not that they amounted to much.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

I couldn't care less about Regina's past with Dr. Facilier

I personally found this "subplot" offensive to Evil Regals and Outlaw Queen shippers. Regina having a love interest was supposed to be significant to the character because of what happened to Daniel. For her to choose to date Robin was meant to be a major step of character growth. All of her other relationships have been purely lustful or manipulative. But now the show is telling us she had genuine feelings for Facilier during the time she was Queen? Robin died only for Regina to angst over this random dude? Excuse me?

It's not that Outlaw Queen was some epic romance to be preserved for generations to come. But the Voodoo Queen ship was another example of A&E throwing fans under the bus because they can't write good stories. Instead of giving Regina an actual arc, we get this crap that doesn't make sense and smells of retcon. I'm not against Regina dating a villain or a redeemed villain. In fact, that's what should've been done for the get-go. But Facilier is just a watered-down, generic store brand version of Rumple that nobody cares about. To say he and Regina have a "history" is a slap in the face to what the show has already established. If you're going to give Regina a villainous love interest in the final season she can angst over, fine. It just needs to be developed on-screen. You can't use "they had a history" as a crutch for a character who has six and a half seasons of story already.

Robyn and Alice are proof you can develop a decent romance in the final season, but they're two new characters so they stakes are much lower. If you're going to give Regina a love interest, you better work hard to prove it's even worth it and that her lover is interesting enough to exist in that role. Facilier ain't it, chief. It's not even that I hate his character or the actor - he's just bland and the writers try so hard to make us wonder whether he's evil or not. He's a plot device, nothing more. (And that's not Regina's fault.)

Edited November 12, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But now the show is telling us she had genuine feelings for Facilier during the time she was Queen? Robin died only for Regina to angst over this random dude? Excuse me?

I think the retconned "history" between Regina and Facilier served the same function as the pixie dust for Robin and Regina: it was a shortcut so they didn't have to actually develop the relationship. They could just declare it a thing and go on from there.

It would have been a lot more interesting if Regina had met Facilier during these events instead of having a past with him. At the time he appears to Regina in the Disenchanted Forest, it's been about eighteen years since Robin died. It doesn't sound like Regina has moved on, considering she ditched her whole life to follow Henry around. Her meeting someone she was attracted to after all that time could have been a big deal for her. Was she avoiding relationships out of fear of yet another man dying on her? Or did she think there was no point, since Robin was her soulmate? Someone like Facilier might have seemed like a "safe" option. She's not going to lose her heart to a bad guy, and if something happens to him, then maybe that's not such a bad thing. But then does he end up getting under her skin?

It's just weird that she supposedly was involved with this guy while she was still totally focused on avenging Daniel and was keeping the Huntsman as a sex slave.