S13.E14: Good Intentions

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My problem with the AU being our actual Mary ( or Bobby, Kevin etc. etc.) is that it seems to impart ultimate power to Mary Campbell. If it was only that one choice that changed the world, wouldn't anyone's choices cause all the new worlds? What if Bobby didn't go into hunting after his wife died? What if Dean ultimately refused to go up and be healed in Faith? Everybody makes decisions that cause butterfly effects every day. It's too much for me to accept that the AU is just a branch of our world. IMO it's an Alternate Universe, not an Alternate Reality. 

We have no idea how many universes exist.  Look at how many Dean Winchester deaths there were... presumably each one represents a different choice by Dean.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

There very well may be 1,126,654,325,692,126 multiverses.  This one just happens to be the one we're seeing.  And, maybe it wasn't completely random that this is the one that got open.  Maybe because Mary came back from the dead, a death that happened because of that decision, these two worlds somehow grew closer together.  

Interesting idea.  Of course the reason is that the writers wanted to tell us something using tbis alternative reality.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Doesn't Gabriel have archangel grace?  There has to be some reason they've brought his character back.  It would be rather ridiculous to pull Michael out of the cage at this point, since it's been fairly well established that he was not in the best of shape.  Now Gabriel didn't look so hot, either, but if it's just his grace that's needed, my guess is that's where it will come from.

I presume he does unless someone took his grace already and has it on ice, which might explain why he could be captured at all.

Asmodeus wanted Jack to open a hole for the monsters in 13.2 to get out. So what's up with those? I don't see a good reason for him to want to open a rift when that would bring over folks more powerful than him. Does he have any idea that Jack is in the AW now? He definitely wants to use Gabriel to kill Lucifer, but I don't think he wants Jack dead. 

I feel like Asmodeus will be the wrench in this whole thing regardless of how it goes down. Will Ketch actually report to them that Gabriel is there. I'm not so sure he will if he thinks he can do something with Gabriel himself. 

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A couple other thoughts. Interesting that Mary never corrected Bobby's inference that she raised the boys. 

Also, I grinned when Dean said in no uncertain terms that he was going with Cas this time, and there was no argument.

Maybe. But I don't like it. For me, it dilutes the significance of our world and what the boys have both suffered and accomplished. It ruins things for me in a surprisingly profound way. 

Their accomplishments are their own.  They would not have been born in our universe without the deal.  That universe sucks balls because they are not there.

Mary was not heroic to take the deal; it was stupid,and wrong and her sons lives were irrevocably shaped by the horrible outcome of that deal.  Dean and Sam are heroic many times over. She is too.  Any hunter is.  She was badass heroic when she  Beat up Lucifer and pushed him through the rift to save her sons. 

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I presume he does unless someone took his grace already and has it on ice, which might explain why he could be captured at all.

Just how do you capture a dead archangel, anyway?  Oh wait...he's another character who apparently didn't really die.  As much as I've never wanted Dean to be Michael's meat suit, it would definitely have made more sense for Asmodeus to steal Michael from the cage than to resurrect Gabriel.  They really are in crackland with the plot this season.

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I presume he does unless someone took his grace already and has it on ice, which might explain why he could be captured at all.

Asmodeus wanted Jack to open a hole for the monsters in 13.2 to get out. So what's up with those? I don't see a good reason for him to want to open a rift when that would bring over folks more powerful than him. Does he have any idea that Jack is in the AW now? He definitely wants to use Gabriel to kill Lucifer, but I don't think he wants Jack dead. 

I feel like Asmodeus will be the wrench in this whole thing regardless of how it goes down. Will Ketch actually report to them that Gabriel is there. I'm not so sure he will if he thinks he can do something with Gabriel himself. 

Asmodeus does not want to open a rift with Gabriel. In fact he specifically stated he does not want AU Michael coming here.

He wants Gabriel to kill Lucifer.   It is a sideshow arc at the moment. I don't see Gabriel succeeding because I think the set-up requires Lucifer to stick around.  He is connected to several storylines.

He wants Jack to free the shadeen but he does not appear to be reckless.  I thjnk his fear of AU Michael supersedes his desire for Jack enough that he was fine letting TFW risk their lives and do the work for him.

Asmodeus and Donatello were in cahoots.  Donatello may have told Asmodeus how to free the shadeen using a demon tablet spell off screen.  It is logical to assume that such a spell is on there.  Alternatively Asmodeus may try to probe Donatello for info now.  I would presume that Cas cleaned everything out but perhaps he only removed  part of it or Asmodeus has yet more super special powers to be revealed.

Just please no shadeen until some other plots are resolved.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just how do you capture a dead archangel, anyway?  Oh w

I'm on the train that Crowley squirreled away his dead body just like he did the Nicksuit. Actually though now that I think about it, he might not have his grace if he was killed. Does Cas have his grace? Or only a part of it? I thought that's why an angel died,  the angel blade killed their grace? 

Well now I'm more confused than before LOL.

I really don't get why Dean won't ask about Cas' time in the Empty. I mean he had the chance when they talked about him dying. Poor Dean IMO just doesn't want to know that anything is wrong with Cas. I don't think he could take it.

Edited March 4, 2018 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They really are in crackland with the plot this season.

I know right, I feel like we should have circus music playing as we try to make sense of this nonsense. 

 

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm on the train that Crowley squirreled away his dead body just like he did the Nicksuit.

I would seriously LMAO if they pulled that again but Ketch is back with the magic leg spell so I won't put it past them.

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Just how do you capture a dead archangel, anyway?  Oh wait...he's another character who apparently didn't really die.  As much as I've never wanted Dean to be Michael's meat suit, it would definitely have made more sense for Asmodeus to steal Michael from the cage than to resurrect Gabriel.  They really are in crackland with the plot this season.

Crackland. That is great.  My preferred term is clusterFCK. Yeah Gabriel was a surprise.  

Asmodeus appears  to believe he has control over Gabriel which is reason no. 1 to not use Michael.  They need to fill in the Asmodeus-Gabriel backstory asap.  Because how did As. Do it.

I think they have deliberately mined Apocalypse 1.0 and have methodically  sprinkled plot points from that mytharc last season and this. A lot of people picked up on tbis but attributed it to a lack of ideas. I saw a pattern. Sometimes situations are referenced. Sometimes the plot point is flipped, for instance Jessie versus Jack or Sam Killing Lilith versus Dean kill Gog/Magog..  Sometimes it is reversed; now Lucifer rules heaven and Michael is the one in the  cage that God turned his back on.  These hints have appeared non-stop.

Ostensibly Gabriel is here to kill Lucifer.  He did try in Apocalypse 1.0 so this is another deliberate referenceand hint we are heafingvto Apocalypse 2.0.  I suspect it is also gratuitous fan service.

I do not think he can stay long-term because it is clusterFCK Crackland already and I suspect he will fail again.

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually though now that I think about it, he might not have his grace if he was killed. Does Cas have his grace? Or only a part of it? I thought that's why an angel died,  the angel blade killed their grace? 

Well now I'm more confused than before LOL.

I really don't get why Dean won't ask about Cas' time in the Empty. I mean he had the chance when they talked about him dying. Poor Dean IMO just doesn't want to know that anything is wrong with Cas. I don't think he could take it.

I assumed when an angel or archangel was killed, their grace was either extinguished or released into the ether.  But if we're saying that Gabriel didn't really die, then I suppose he'd still have his, but having him be undead just seems absurd.  I'm sure we'll learn that he was in archangel witness protection after Lucifer thought he'd killed him, and somehow Asmodeus found him.  As for Cas' grace, who knows.  He shouldn't be back, period.  But if Jack is all powerful, then I guess we're supposed to believe that he brought Cas back with his grace intact.  He was able to read Donatello's mind, so he must have at least some of his angel juice.

Sometimes I catch myself typing some of this stuff and I have to stop and laugh at the idea that I'm even watching this show, let alone trying to make sense of the storylines.  I blame Jensen and Jared.

[Castiels Cat]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm on the train that Crowley squirreled away his dead body just like he did the Nicksuit. Actually though now that I think about it, he might not have his grace if he was killed. Does Cas have his grace? Or only a part of it? I thought that's why an angel died,  the angel blade killed their grace? 

Well now I'm more confused than before LOL.

I really don't get why Dean won't ask about Cas' time in the Empty. I mean he had the chance when they talked about him dying. Poor Dean IMO just doesn't want to know that anything is wrong with Cas. I don't think he could take it.

Me too.  He is not dead. I tbink Letch could be Crowley.  Letch is really acting different this season and I know the guy can act.  I picked up his Mary lust way before they boinked... hence my nickname for him.  And it is so curious that he is in a position to keep tabs on hell, the brothers and is looking for Rowena.  And his reoeated attenots to work with the brothers.  

Something is up.  And hidden identities is a reoccurring theme.

If am expecting him to show up for a,drink and chat with Dean...

[Res]

On 3/1/2018 at 9:21 PM, catrox14 said:

I almost think he was brought back to give Mary false vindication. Otherwise, he hasn't done much.

I thought he's just brought back because of fans every year.

Either way, I was over him season 4.

[catrox14]

Just now, Res said:

I thought he's just brought back because of fans every year.

Either way, I was over him season 4.

Oh he is. I'm saying more that this time he had a different reason than in the past. Before it was to help the boys. Him interacting with Mary doesn't really help the boys per se this time that's why I said that.

[Castiels Cat]

43 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I assumed when an angel or archangel was killed, their grace was either extinguished or released into the ether.  But if we're saying that Gabriel didn't really die, then I suppose he'd still have his, but having him be undead just seems absurd.  I'm sure we'll learn that he was in archangel witness protection after Lucifer thought he'd killed him, and somehow Asmodeus found him.  As for Cas' grace, who knows.  He shouldn't be back, period.  But if Jack is all powerful, then I guess we're supposed to believe that he brought Cas back with his grace intact.  He was able to read Donatello's mind, so he must have at least some of his angel juice.

Sometimes I catch myself typing some of this stuff and I have to stop and laugh at the idea that I'm even watching this show, let alone trying to make sense of the storylines.  I blame Jensen and Jared.

Cas had been resurrected repeatedly so it is possible. Jack woke him up. I assume POOG completed the process.  Cas came back in pristine clothing so I do not think Gabriel is here by that route.

Witness protection is a possibility however given the AU stuff I will go out on a limb and say that the WS rift is shifting between worlds and he came from another alternate reality, one possibly worse than the AU Apocalypse.

Still does not explain how Asmodeus captured him.  He is so roughed up and not healing.  It sounds like  his grace is gone or near empty. He can still weild the blade. Maybe Admodeus plans to smoke in or something to power up the meatsuit. 

I had the same thought yesterday as I was furiously typing... and my autocorrect is full of supernatural themed words.

39 minutes ago, Res said:

I thought he's just brought back because of fans every year.

Either way, I was over him season 4.

Me too.  He started getting on my nerves in season 5.

I actually prefer AU Bobby to ours at this point.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sometimes I catch myself typing some of this stuff and I have to stop and laugh at the idea that I'm even watching this show, let alone trying to make sense of the storylines.  I blame Jensen and Jared.

LOOL I think this pretty much with every discussion. Like who writes sentence that says "A crazy soulless dude had a spell sucked out of his brain by a recently mostly dead angel" and "What happened to the archangel that was dead and has his mouth sewn shut?" LOL meatsuit alone makes me laugh.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOOL I think this pretty much with every discussion. Like who writes sentence that says "A crazy soulless dude had a spell sucked out of his brain by a recently mostly dead angel" and "What happened to the archangel that was dead and has his mouth sewn shut?" LOL meatsuit alone makes me laugh.

And yet it makes perfect sense...

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I actually prefer AU Bobby to ours at this point.

I love me some Bobby, but AU Bobby isn't doing it for me.  It's his relationship with the boys that I enjoy.  I was fine with seeing him once a season, and actually looked forward to it.  I really enjoyed the Bobby and Rufus flashback episode.  But without the connection to the people I care about, he's not really Bobby.  

[trxr4kids]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL meatsuit alone makes me laugh.

I should work "meatsuit" into a conversation easily overheard next time I'm grocery shopping. LOL

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/3/2018 at 8:18 PM, ILoveReading said:

 

 

On 3/3/2018 at 12:14 PM, ILoveReading said:

My ramblings-

I thought this was a decent ep and I did like more than I disliked. 

Positives:

• The return of badass Dean is always a welcome addition.   I liked the fight scene with Gog, and Magog and I liked that Dean got both kills while saving Cas. 
• Dean's screams during the 'fire" were chilling and filled with fear.  Jensen continues to make the most of what he gets.
• The bacon line.  LOL.  Dean always has the best one liners.
• Dean's amusement over the Gog brothers was amusing.
• A huge shout out to Jensen during that scene where Dean stops breathing.  It brought back memories of when he was stabbed by metatron.  I almost stopped breathing It was so real looking.  Damnit Ackles, stop it.

Negatives

• Jack.  He continues to bore me.  They should just change his name to Precious Nougat Sunshine and be done with it.  What's the point of making him Lucifer son if your not going to at least show a hint of a darkside.  Jack's "darkside" doesn't even approach off white.
• I'm over Bobby in any incarnation.
• The AU continues to be a dud.
• I thought they handled redemption for Mary's deal last year.  Because both Sam and Dean forgave her.  IMO, it was never the deal that was the problem with the character. 
• Zachariah- what was the point? All the other AU character have at least a resemblance to their former characters.  If they hadn't named the character I would never have matched him to our Zacheriah.  (Dean's kill is still way cooler).
• I wish the fire had been real. It would have been a very emotional moment  (This is the 2nd time a reference to Dean dieing in a fire has been made.  I wish this was going somewhere)
• The conversation between Dean, Cas and Sam.  They've all done worse for more selfish reasons.  It's like the writers tried to force an ethical dilemma into a place it didn't need to be for no other reason than just writing one.

Reserving Judgement:

• Michael- He's kind of dull right now, but the character seems ruthless and SPN has been lacking a true villian for a long time.  The potential is there.  Ketch grew on me last season. 

Random thought- I hope Dean and Cas kept the God swords.  They could come in handy.

 

They kept the God swords... otherwise i susoect the angel swords would have worked.  They trumped angel sword and probably Trump archangel swords.  Dean loves his specialty weapons.

And they might kill Jack.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Lemuria]

Quote

Im not sure how much help our Michael would be since they firmly established that our Michael is looney tunes.

Which could still leave him a tiger on the battlefield.  <<g>>

Quote

Right, even Chuck couldn't help him afaIk.

I don't think Chuck said that.  I could be remembering it incorrectly but I think he said he couldn't resurrect Gabriel--which, in a show with any consistency, would mean that Gabriel was most sincerely dead--because he needed primordial soup to create an archangel.  With Michael, he should have been able to do something about Mikey's missing french fry; he's God.  He just didn't care enough about the "good son" (I presume Michael believes Dean now) to even bother trying.

It's amazing how the writers have played with our perceptions:  compared to Chuck, even Mary seems like a decent parent.  And compared to Mary, John was phenomenal!  (Not that I think the writers have actually done this on purpose.)

 

Quote

This wouldn't surprise me, but it would annoy me.  There's nothing the least bit ambiguous in how they've portrayed Jack as good, so to suddenly make him have evil thoughts will be completely out of left field.  Which, of course, means this is exactly what they're going to do.

They could do this and make it work but not if they go the nature vs. nurture route because they've already sunk that issue.  No, I think it's the absolute power question that could do it.  If Jack comes into his full power and if he stays in AW in order to turn it into a paradise, then this problem could come into play.  As Lord Acton noted, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  Notice that there's no "tends" when it comes to absolute power.

The little chocolate truffle would have to become the Chuck of this one universe in order to succeed, and making it a democracy isn't even on the books.  How long before he becomes an absolute dictator?  Especially as humans are messy, stubborn, violent and downright annoying (which is apparently why Chuck went off to dance on a tortilla and screw around with Becky Rosen).  I can see our favorite strawberry tart falling into the absolute power trap (and hear Lucifer laughing all the way to Hell).

In which case, if the showrunners decide to keep the bundt cake around, Dean and Sam may have to square off against him at some point.  

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Im not sure how much help our Michael would be since they firmly established that our Michael is looney tunes.

All Dean needs is the grace. Dean can offer escape and Michael his OTV.  It is not about logic.  Tbink about what Dean did in Advanced Thanotology.  It is Dean's go to move when extremely emotional and has nothing to  do with logic.

29 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Which could still leave him a tiger on the battlefield.  <<g>>

I don't think Chuck said that.  I could be remembering it incorrectly but I think he said he couldn't resurrect Gabriel--which, in a show with any consistency, would mean that Gabriel was most sincerely dead--because he needed primordial soup to create an archangel.  With Michael, he should have been able to do something about Mikey's missing french fry; he's God.  He just didn't care enough about the "good son" (I presume Michael believes Dean now) to even bother trying.

It's amazing how the writers have played with our perceptions:  compared to Chuck, even Mary seems like a decent parent.  And compared to Mary, John was phenomenal!  (Not that I think the writers have actually done this on purpose.)

 

They could do this and make it work but not if they go the nature vs. nurture route because they've already sunk that issue.  No, I think it's the absolute power question that could do it.  If Jack comes into his full power and if he stays in AW in order to turn it into a paradise, then this problem could come into play.  As Lord Acton noted, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."  Notice that there's no "tends" when it comes to absolute power.

The little chocolate truffle would have to become the Chuck of this one universe in order to succeed, and making it a democracy isn't even on the books.  How long before he becomes an absolute dictator?  Especially as humans are messy, stubborn, violent and downright annoying (which is apparently why Chuck went off to dance on a tortilla and screw around with Becky Rosen).  I can see our favorite strawberry tart falling into the absolute power trap (and hear Lucifer laughing all the way to Hell).

In which case, if the showrunners decide to keep the bundt cake around, Dean and Sam may have to square off against him at some point.  

Yep. As I said elsewhere Michael is now the brother forsaken by God and left in the Cage to rot and conversely Lucifer is in heaven leading his army.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 3:21 AM, ukgirl71 said:

Can some kind soul spoil two things for me please?  1. What exactly did Cas do  2. Why was Dean being helped away (injured?) by Sam in the promo photo?

Thanks from a chilly UK :O)

He went into Donatello's mind to find the spell and left him brain dead.

Donatello  absorbed power from the demon tablet because he has no soul and used this knowledge  to choke Dean with a flick of his hand.

On 3/1/2018 at 10:11 PM, Katy M said:

Yeah, I think it's mostly the smirking and the squirrelly looks that are bugging me.

+1000

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:25 PM, Pondlass1 said:

Something's up with Castiel.  Maybe it will just be nothing but I hope it's something. He's been blah for too long. 

Entertaining episode. Good pacing.  I still  find Sam Smith's acting sort of distant and removed from the situation.

Yes it has been bugging me all season.  I settled on two things as being the most likely causes.

1. Fetus Jack rewired him in 12 plus Jack woke Cas up. This combination has caused Cas to dedicate his allegiance to Jack per his comment that he was reawakened for a greater purpose.  

2. Cas' rewiring has reignited his warrior programming plus he believes they are at war. He is full on Machiavellian.

3. None of this explains the smirks and hints of sadism.  I think that although Jack woke him up POOG did some adjustnents before sending him to Earth.  Besides the facial ticks, etc. He is dressing more stylishly.  No more Columbo wear.

[Jonesy]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes it has been bugging me all season.  I settled on two things as being the most likely causes.

1. Fetus Jack rewired him in 12 plus Jack woke Cas up. This combination has caused Cas to dedicate his allegiance to Jack per his comment that he was reawakened for a greater purpose.  

2. Cas' rewiring has reignited his warrior programming plus he believes they are at war. He is full on Machiavellian.

3. None of this explains the smirks and hints of sadism.  I think that although Jack woke him up POOG did some adjustnents before sending him to Earth.  Besides the facial ticks, etc. He is dressing more stylishly.  No more Columbo wear.

Again this is just Cas going back to season 4 warrior mode added to what Dabb has emphasized the last couple of years with Cas...how being with the Winchesters has effected his emotional growth and connection to them and his protection of them and now Mary and Jack.  He was that way when he "killed" Billy and how emotional he was afterwards(aka before Jack).  There really was no hint of pleasure or sadism in killing Donatello.  So this is more like your #1 except Jack is not the cause...Cas just is dedicated in warrior protective mode not only for Jack but the Winchesters too and he has been like that recently even BEFORE Jack--so Jack isn't altering him...it's character growth for Cas and it's up to everyone to judge for themselves if it's for the good or bad or a mixture,  To me it's all good right now, as long as Cas doesn't spin out of control later--which imo he definitely has not done so yet.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So here's a question then, once that person who made that huge decision is no longer in that world IE dead, shouldn't that kind of reset their decision? And if the other version shows up in the other world shouldn't that reset that other timeline?

I don't think so.  Your decisins have consequnces past when you die.  Especially in this case.  And either scenario would seem to mean that those universes revolved around that person.

 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I would be MORE than happy if Dean was Michael and fought AU Michael but I don't think it's even going to get to that point myself. I think Dean will be doing something else.

I would actually hate that.  I would prefer that Dean and Sam do something rather than leave it up to others, in this case Michael in Dean's body.  Blech.

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I don't think Chuck said that.  I could be remembering it incorrectly but I think he said he couldn't resurrect Gabriel--which, in a show with any consistency, would mean that Gabriel was most sincerely dead--because he needed primordial soup to create an archangel.  With Michael, he should have been able to do something about Mikey's missing french fry; he's God.  He just didn't care enough about the "good son" (I presume Michael believes Dean now) to even bother trying.

You're right about Michael but regarding Gabriel he could do it; he just didn't have the time to do so: 

Per Superwiki: 

CHUCK: Well, Michael’s in no condition to fight, and it’s outside of my power to bring Gabriel and Raphael back.
SAM: But you restored Castiel.
CHUCK: Archangels are different. They’re the stuff of primordial creation. Rebuilding them, that’s – It’s time we don’t have.

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

There really was no hint of pleasure or sadism in killing Donatello

Yes, I didn't get that impression either.

[ILoveReading]

9 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

All Dean needs is the grace.

Dean doesn't need to be possessed my Michael in order for this happen.  If Michael is really as far gone as they say why he would have no clue about what was going on around him.   Not sure why Dean would need to trade himself.  It would be like taking candy from a baby.

 

9 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is Dean's go to move when extremely emotional and has nothing to  do with logic.

That's the problem.  Dean's not extremely emotional.  Up to episode 9 I would have agreed but since they got stuck in monster land he's been pretty much "Mary Who' and chilling with his bacon.  He was even, "ya we'll do it but it will take time.' He was even arguing about not killing Donatello just to get the spell.    Out of Sam and Cas he's the one who seems to be the least frantic about the whole situation.

When Berens wrote that part with Kaia his perspective was Dean just doing it to get Kaia in the car and he was never going to shoot.  So I don't think hell flashbacks, or extreme emotion was the purpose.  Jensen played that way, but without the writing to support it, I think its done.

Now, I'll admit Dean might be burying emotions and there is some explosion is about to happen, but if that was going to happen, Jensen is really good with those subtle touches and would be able to show us cracks in Dean's armor.  I don't think we've seen Dean even drinking that much these last few eps.  So I don't think this is going to happen becasue the writers seems to be more focused on Cas and Sam's emotions.

Edited March 4, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Bergamot]

49 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Now, I'll admit Dean might be burying emotions and there is some explosion is about to happen, but if that was going to happen, Jensen is really good with those subtle touches and would be able to show us cracks in Dean's armor.  I don't think we've seen Dean even drinking that much these last few eps.  So I don't think this is going to happen becasue the writers seems to be more focused on Cas and Sam's emotions.

Yeah, you are right. At least Sam got to show that he was upset about their plan going awry. All Dean gets to do lately is ask the other characters how they are doing. Otherwise he has been quite chipper and cheerful, and you are correct: if we were supposed to be seeing Dean repressing his emotions, we would absolutely be able to tell. It's like the writers can't handle a complicated scenario of more than one of them having emotions at once. Maybe next episode Dean and Sam will get to talk about saving their mother, and Dean's part of the conversation will be more than asking Sam how he is doing and being chipper and determined about their chances. I'm not going to hold my breath for it though.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Bergamot

[MysteryGuest]

I think Cas is just our Cas, only this is the 'zero fucks to give' version.  He's angry with himself for letting Kelly and Jack down, and for making a series of bad choices over the years.  Personally, I find it refreshing.  He's been so depressed and lacking in self-confidence for I don't know how many seasons.  This is a good change, IMO.  

As for Dean, he's on a mission now.  He doesn't know how they're going to get to Mary, but he's determined that they will.  He's not allowing himself to think otherwise.  He can't afford to right now.  Sam is in a bad place, and Cas isn't going to be stopped, so Dean has to keep both of them in check.  He doesn't have the luxury of drinking himself into oblivion this time.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean doesn't need to be possessed my Michael in order for this happen.  If Michael is really as far gone as they say why he would have no clue about what was going on around him.   Not sure why Dean would need to trade himself.

Unless OurMichael is not that far gone that he wouldn't jump at a chance to get out of the cage and take out some wrath on any number of beings starting with his AU counterpart this season. And if Dabb were truly brave, have him planning to continue down the revenge road, in his best, strongest, and True Vessel, going into S14.

I still honestly feel like this is the story that should be writing itself for these writers...

Taking the rest of my response to the Bitterness thread...

Edited March 4, 2018 by Myrelle

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

he's been pretty much "Mary Who' and chilling with his bacon. 

This made me laugh.  But it's true.  After the fuss about pulling a gun on a girl... Dean's gone all Zen on us.

The fact that there's a bevy of different writers who probably rarely watch or read scripts of episodes that have gone before is really becoming obvious.  It should be up to the showrunner to tie it all together - This is where we are with the characters at the moment - type of thing.  

It's difficult enough that all panicky momentum has to stop to accommodate an  MOTW episode, but Arc episodes should really continue on especially in terms of emotional status of characters.  But, still, I'm not complaining too loudly.... it's nice to see Dean kick back and enjoy his nitrates. 

Dean's all 'whatever"... While Cas is all "action man".  I kinda like it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

As for Dean, he's on a mission now.  He doesn't know how they're going to get to Mary, but he's determined that they will.  He's not allowing himself to think otherwise.  He can't afford to right now.  Sam is in a bad place, and Cas isn't going to be stopped, so Dean has to keep both of them in check.  He doesn't have the luxury of drinking himself into oblivion this time.

I see the opposite. I see an almost like Stoned!Dean from s7 and with each solution presented, even having Lucifer in his clutches, he's like "SOON"..."I'll kill Lucifer....soon".  

In this episode he's all "In time ".  

Sam seems skittish now. What happened to all his confidence before he found out Mary was actually alive. I mean sure it's gonna be more difficult now without Jack but he knows Jack is alive. He knows that he's too valuable to AU Michael for him to kill him. I would also think he's pretty confident that Jack will be able to take care of himself. 

You'd think he would be all up in Dean's business about getting this rescue mission under way and yelling at Dean for not being as manic as he was in The Bad Place. 

Dean might be burying his fear in a mask of bravado/over confidence, I just don't think he is. I think it's weird that he's side eyeing things now. I mean he's literally side eyeing LOL. He's doing shifty eyes. 

Why is he questioning Cas' actions now? Why is he against Cas doing whatever it takes? I don't think he feels guilty for the Kaia thing anymore.  He was also side eying Sam for giving Rowena the spell pages which fair enough.

It's weird. Each time someone mentions about taking a step forward, he's almost against it. I don't mean exactly against it, but almost reluctant, since coming back from the Bad Place. I have a hard time seeing it as him being just so confident and patient about things. I don't get it. 

Could he be thinking about Billie's warning and is hoping they don't get what they need but he doesn't want to tell anyone he's against opening another rift? That seems entirely unlikely given he said 'We get it, get Mary and Jack and get gone. Family reunion'...."soon". 

He sure didn't look thrilled at the idea of the scavenger hunt.  I don't think he's evil or Dark Dean, but I get the vibe he's REALLY NOT on the same page as Cas and Sam. I feel like he's got his own ideas and somehow all of this is either interfering with it or he wants it delayed for a reason. 

 Now maybe Castiel's Cat is onto something about him going for Michael...but I don't know. I'm just not willing to believe the show will follow that to fruition. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:03 AM, juppschmitz said:

Because "good" peoole just don't enjoy torture, no matter what. Dean admitted to enjoying torturing souls in Hell (and all of his victims there presumably "deserved" it, being in Hell and all) and look at what it did to his psyche when he was himself back on Earth.

Feel free to disagree.

Exactly.  And Cas has never enjoyed torture before or engaged in torture that was not necessary for extracting information.  He did. It need to leave him brain dead.  

It was implied that AU Michael and goons went into Mary's mind to extract info.  As cruel as they are she survived.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 10:54 AM, SueB said:

- It was an Enochian spell, that's it. No power
- Gog and Magog: So Donatello said they were human or land -- the Bible has many translations. Cas chimes in he didn't think they were human. Donatello said, "oh yes, they were ancient warriors who enslaved the half the Fertile Cresent" until some priest trapped them in a place without a place, a time without a time.  SO... IMO, there's a least some fuzz on that peach as to what KIND of beings Gog and Magog were.  The whole "enslave people" puts them in the "bad guy" column but while Donatello seemed to insist they were human, he clearly was lying because they were made of sand.

- Oh, and the "thing" with Gomorrah (and Sodom) was that they were cleansed with Holy Fire and Lot's wife, who looked back at the city, turned into a pillar of salt (not Sand). So, at least in the Supernatural verse, we don't have a conflating of the salt-turned wife of Lot and Gog/Magog.

- Dabb seems to be borrowing from the multi-variant interpreted Judaic texts regarding Nephlim, and Watchers, and Noah.  I took the discussion of the Flood to be a shoutout to the movie Noah and it's 'rock creature' Watchers. But Dabb is into that kind of thing so he may be following one particular telling of the story, I just don't know one.  No, it's not in the standard Torah or Judeo-Christian Bible (Old Testamant, New Testamant). But Donatello also did a shout out to 'multiple translations of the Bible'.  

Bottom Line; No, they didn't explain why they were made of Sand. But their nature was iffy to begin with, which maybe why going off to kill them was not treated with the seriousness I expected.

Thanks  I missed the first half when I wrote this.

I went to wiki and Meredith lifted verbatim the line about being people or a city... verbatim.

I did not go to church regularly or attend Sunday school so I have mythology holes.

According to Wiki killing Gog, Magog is an Apocalyptic precursor and their killer has been referred to as the messiah which I interpret as the person opposing Lucifer in the Apocalypse.  

Important subtext and supports my Dean!Michael spec as well as a reverse Apocalypses scenario here with our Michael being the outsider.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 3:22 PM, catrox14 said:

Here's a question. Is Donatello a human if he has no soul? That was always what I wondered about with Soulless Sam. Isn't that why Dean wanted to put it back because Sam had become human adjacent? And then we have an entity who is supposed to be protected by archangels so shouldn't Lucifer have coming in from Heaven to protect this prophet or does that protection no longer apply to a soulless prophet?

After Raphael died other angels came to protect Kevin but eventually released him to the Winchesters' care.

No one came to protect Donatello however they now no longer have viable  wings and are running heaven themselves and deciding how to do things.   It is possible rhat it is lol canon but there are acceptable canonical reasons why Donatello was left unguarded.

Lucifer was an outsider who clashed against heaven's rigid administration and hierarchy.  There is no reason for him to care about Donatello unless he needs him.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:12 PM, catrox14 said:

There were multiple ways Donny had become corrupted, not just the demon tablets. IMO. Y

1) He's soulless so he was corruptible already. He had to do what Mr Rogers would do to keep from going dark side.

2) Asmodeus could more readily mind whammy him and possibly control him in some other way because he was soulless.

3)His lack of soul, made him more susceptible to the influence of the demon tablets.

So taking all three things, IMO, Asmodeus made sure that Donny was loyal to him, not TFW via the mind whammy, which is  why he clocked Sam in the noggin and was powering himself up in some way. 

The demon tablets influence could make him feel paranoid and not want to lose that power, but IMO it was Assy's whammy that had the most influence and that was because he was soulless.

 

Anyway, my overall point is that if Donny was dead, then another souled prophet would be more trustworthy and they could protect the prophet better.  And the demon tablets would not have the same effect on a souled person than they did Donny. 

IMO, if they killed Donny, Cas wouldn't have had to strip the spell.  And now Cas is at risk because he did that. Killing Donny would have been the best choice all in all once he was shown to have been corrupted by Asmodeus.

Except at that one spot by the window, when he probably could have. 

Donatello clocked Sam because Dean was calling on the phone to warn Sam and Donatello knew that  the gig was up.  The phone is buzzing. He stops looks, refuses the call and then clocks Sam.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Lucifer was an outsider who clashed against heaven's rigid administration and hierarchy.  There is no reason for him to care about Donatello unless he needs him.

I was under the impression the archangels didn't do it by choice based on what Castiel said in s4.  I posted the dialogue elsewhere here. It seemed to me they were tied by God to protect his prophets. Like a cosmic thing

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Donatello clocked Sam because Dean was calling on the phone to warn Sam and Donatello knew that  the gig was up.  The phone is buzzing. He stops looks, refuses the call and then clocks Sam.

Yes that was shown. The method of attack doesn't matter here. The point is that Donny attacked Sam because he had been corrupted.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:58 PM, SueB said:

On Cas frying Donnie's brain, it was a likely outcome but not definite.   The Winchesters have taken that kind of risk before from what Cas has seen.  And Cas definitely wasn't happy about it.  The boys took vegetable Donnie to the hospital but he's "brain dead".  Which means there will be no new prophet called until he's most sincerely dead.  Keeps another prophet off the board until the story needs one.

Maybe they were hoping Jack could heal him?  Or just letting enough time pass to make sure some other thing didn't happen that changed him.  

Mary says AU Michael was in her head.  She is walking and talking.  Cas deliberately f'd Donatello up.  He was pissed about Dean being hurt and he let it color his actions.  Yes he decided that  violating Donatello's brain without consent was warranted because he has a responsibility to Jack and they are at war but I do not think that he had tyo scramble his brains.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 2:56 PM, catrox14 said:

Well that can be said for them exorcising demons and leaving the meatsuits in dire straits.  To me, Donatello had become a demon essentially. He could have actually killed Sam with that conk on his head? And I think that was his intention given he also sent Dean and Cas to be murdered by the Brothers "Gog". So at this point, Donatello, sadly was beyond saving. Could they have exorcised him? NOPE because he didn't have a twisted soul and they couldn't cure him.

IMO, Cas was right that it would have been more merciful to kill him than to leave him soulless and brain dead.

But to that end, this  smells of Buck Leming with the idea that simply removing ONE spell from his mind would cause that harm. I mean how does that even work? It doesn't really make any sense when I think about it. Now if Cas had decided that he was removing ALL the info Donatello ever had and he was removing Asmodeus influence then maybe I can see why that would have left him a vegetable but honestly, it really doesn't make any sense.

Also, now that I think about it. If Donatello was massively affected by that spell, what is it going to do to Cas going forward? Are we going to get Crazy!God!Cas again?

I don't know, I shouldn't have thought about this again LOL.

But only Cas is the bad guy for doing that....

I think Cas removed the entire demon tablet from his mind because this was how he hurt Dean. He neutered Donatello and prevented him from using the spells on anyone else.

I think Cas deliberately left Donatello brain dead.

AU Michael rooted in Mary's brain and she is fine.

When parallels occur in the same episode it is for a reason.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Mary says AU Michael was in her head.  She is walking and talking.  Cas deliberately f'd Donatello up.  He was pissed about Dean being hurt and he let it color his actions.  Yes he decided that  violating Donatello's brain without consent was warranted because he has a responsibility to Jack and they are at war but I do not think that he had tyo scramble his brai

That's certainly not the impression I had. Yes, Cas was pissed but don't forget Donny himself said that if Cas did it would potentially destroy THEM BOTH.  So I don't think he did it just because he harmed Dean. He took the spell because the boys didn't want him to kill Donny.

AU Michael reading Mary's mind and messing with her with visions isn't the same thing that happened with Donny.  Cas is not a monster.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's certainly not the impression I had. Yes, Cas was pissed but don't forget Donny himself said that if Cas did it would potentially destroy THEM BOTH.  So I don't think he did it just because he harmed Dean. He took the spell because the boys didn't want him to kill Donny.

AU Michael reading Mary's mind and messing with her with visions isn't the same thing that happened with Donny.  Cas is not a monster.

Cas never was a monster before.   I think he is different and I think he deliberately f'd him. He fully admits that what he is doing is crossing a line he has never crossed and states he is doing it to prevent Donatello from buying his,friend or anyone else"... Deliberate choice to permanently f... him up.

" 'CASTIEL

I am going to do something that I promised I would never do to a human being without their permission. I’m gonna strip the spell from your mind...

CASTIEL

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to let you or anyone hurt the people I love. Not again.' "
 

Afterwards Cas admits it was intentionally justifies his actions.

" '[DEAN]

Yeah, but, Cas, you turned him into… he’s brain dead. Machines keeping him breathing. What’s wrong with you?

CASTIEL

Nothing...
His soul was gone. He was corrupted. He was a danger to himself and to you and to all of humanity. Did you know that he was working with Asmodeus?...

Not by choice, but he was. Some people just can’t be saved.

DEAN

Yeah, but who gets to make that choice? You? What exactly gives you the right?

CASTIEL

Nothing. I took it. And if I hadn’t acted, we would still be sitting around and talking about what to do next. We would be wasting time. And it’s time we don’t have, Dean. I told you, war is coming. War. And I did what soldiers do. Now we needed the spell to open the rift, and I got it. We need four major ingredients:

the grace of an archangel… a fruit from the Tree of Life… the Seal of Solomon… and the blood of “a most holy man.” We find those things, we can bring everybody home. And together, we can beat Lucifer and Michael. This is the only way we win, and this is the only way we survive.

[DEAN and SAM continue to look at CASTIEL as they process what he is saying.]

It’s like you said, Dean. Whatever it takes.' "

Mary said AU Michael was in her head.  The logical presumption is that he was looking for Intel.  The difference is AU Michael chose not to leave her brain dead.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 11:06 PM, Lemuria said:

There are most likely an infinite number of universes in the multiverse (well, at least there are as far as Dr. Strange is concerned!) and there are undoubtedly universes where Mary made the deal and it still ended badly--Sam was corrupted early by the demon blood in his system and went fully darkside; angels talked to Dean from when he was a child and he fully bought into being willing to sacrifice half of humanity to destroy Lucifer and Hell (and Darkside Sam) in order to ensure the remaining half lived in earthly paradise--and universes where she didn't make the deal and it still turned out well. 

It's somewhat simplistic of AU Bobby, IMO, to assume that this was the only thing that counted--which is why I do think it was the show's way of vindicating her decision to make a deal and part of the show's constant efforts to glorify Mary.  Unfortunately, it's all tell and no show, since I think she's been a bust as a hunter.  Without going over everything, just the fact that a hunter would not demon-proof her own house shows a level of stupid that's mindboggling (especially as she was taking off for days at a time and leaving first one and then two young children, and one unsuspecting husband, in a house without wards).

I disagree that her turning to the BMoL was not stupid.  I understand that she (and Sam) thought the Brits shiny toys could be useful (and we should have nicknamed that season as Toys Ex Machina because the BMoL kept miraculously pulling these out of their toy chests--even though the American MoL had no idea any of them existed) but they both should have had better instincts, and shrewder observational skills, especially as our first meeting with the Brits involved torturing Sam very nastily (even the run-of-the-mill American hunters didn't buy into what the Brits were selling).  Only the "dumb" Winchester knew better.

The Gog brothers were not human and in both Hebrew and Christian lore, they were bad guys--Christianity even has them in league with Satan.  So they fall within the category of beings that the brothers kill on a regular basis, often just to save one or two people.  

Which, to me, only confirms she's an idiot.  There's no way the Brits could accomplish this.  In tiny England, they might have succeeded but in North America (because monsters don't stop at the borders), it was a lost cause.  

I also don't agree that she sacrificed herself for the boys.  She intended to use the angel-busting brass knuckles--which remains totally ridiculous to me!--to knock Lucifer back but she had no intention of going through the rift herself; Lucifer grabbed her and pulled her through with him.

She tells them she loves them before taking Lucifer on.  She was sacrificing herself for them.

[Castiels Cat]

On 3/2/2018 at 11:59 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

To show how opinions can differ ; ) ... I think it took less than a season. Sam gave a heartfelt and very specific apology in "Something Wicked." Actually if you want to be technical, Sam gave Dean a heartfelt apology in the Pilot episode concerning Mary... So yeah, our opinions vary greatly here.

I'm not even going to touch whether or not I think Sam was being "shitty" to Dean either, because I think we'll disagree on that point also.

Okay 11 seasons was an exaggeration.  Did he apologize for choosing Ruby over him in season 4.  I remember him blaming Dean for pushing him to Ruby.  Did he apologize to anyone about starting the Apocalypse.  Jody lost her family.  So many people died.  We see Dean grappling with guilt and remorse for his actions repeatedly but not sam until season 11.  And he didn't apologize for his actions in sesson 8 until season 11 When he was redeemed  and the editing  allowed him tto take responsibility.

And although Dean feels visible guilt more often, apologizes more often  and punishes himself for everything he has dick tendencies when he is angry.

Both brothers are flawed.  Their mother was flawed.   In fact as I noted in another post she exhibits the same behavioral traits that they do.

She is no worse than they are.

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm about the most hardcore Dean fan you're likely to ever come across, so I don't think your Dean goggles are affecting your theory. 

I imagine you'll have a perfectly reasonable path and I still don't think the show would do it on principle.

There have been too many dropped Dean storylines to count.  Upon reflection i can see the reason why for most of them.

Righteous Man/Michael Sword, OTV.  Dean was never going to say yes because it went against his free will and he would be the agent to kill Sam. It would not have hurt so much if it didn't occur in tandem with so much Sam pimping because Kripke wrote himself into a corner.  He made Sam too dark for special powers; So dark that Sam was essentially the Antichrist. And created a child Antichrist figure doesn't change this.  Despite Kripke's course corrections  Dean will was the deciding factor because Dean going to Stull was not in the story as Chuck/God wrote it per Chuck/God.  This means Dean going to Stull was the action that saved the world and God allowed Dean to choose the ending (just like season 11).

Seasons 6-7 centered around Dean's reactions to betrayal and loss.  Dean got the best monster kills and the best badass moments.  Gamble had a hard on for Sam so the Sam pimping was nauseating.  I will never forgive Dean not becoming the next Phoenix after consuming its ash.  

Seasons 8-11.  Carver's main focus was exploring the brother's respective fatal flaws thst drive the mytharc and rehabilitating the character of Sam who had not been allowed the growth cycle he should have gotten post betraying his brother and starting the Apocalypse.  Carver had Sam repeat his behavior from seasons 3-5 whilst staying fully human so there were no excuses.  Sam is upset he doesn't save Dean and takes his guilt out on Dean and Benny.  Sam is terrified that Dean is a demon/might become a demon again and bevomes desperate, going dark to save him.  Sam unknowingly releases a great horror on the world and feels he has to fix it.  We see Sam's flaws again in detail only this time Sam is allowed  to evaluate his actions, take responsibility, show guilt and remorse, apologize and grow from the experience.  He also dedicates himself to hunting with his brother for the first time (atonement by dedicating his life to helping others) and vocakky decides to put  his faith in Dean effectively throwing out his hubric need to be thenone to do things because Dean is too wrsk (hubris). 3 cheers for Carver!!!

With this in mind Sam does the trials because he sees himself as stronger than Dean (like his season 4 reasoning As articulated by Ruby).  He goes to Purgatory briefly and takes the MoC briefly because he needs to walk in Dean's shoes to see how strong his brother really is. Demon Dean doesn't last because that storyline was about exploring Sam's guilt at not being able to save Dean from Hell drives Sam to desperate measures;  in fact all it needed to accomplish was to show Sam that the MoC turns humans into demons and it was going to happen again.  

Dean received some cool storylines and the show started exploring his flaws however the larger purpose was to course correct the worst mistake that Kripke and Gamble made, one which prevented any character growth and caused many fans to dislike the character.

Season's 12-13

Season 12 dragged worse than season 8. Both function as thesis paragraphs for the major goal.  Season 8 rebooted Sam's dark arc and reset the board to follow through.  Season 12 rebooted the Apocalypse including starting with the search for a missing family member,  reusing "We have work to do", name dropping the family business and TFW and repeating storylines (BMOL conspiracy vs. Demon conspiracy, imprisonment by law enforcement, powerful half human supernatural child, a character with special blood being host to a great evil...) and season 12 started to reset the board.

It was obvious it would focus on Dean's flaws and choices because Sam was moved into a more passive role of reacting to others rather than reprising his old character arcs. In contrast Dean did reprise old character arcs. His old worry about Sam was transferred to Mary and he is more trigger happy in regards to monsters.  And we focus on his relationship to Mary asnd her abrupt dearh which is the origin point for his angst driven tragic flaws much as John's parenting drove Sam's (just my imagination).

In season 13 we begin focusing on Dean's tragic flaw, his desperate  need to save family through reckless self sacrifice and/or when he feels he failed his family . We have seen this behavior again and again starting with his demon deal and also including his, behavior in Appointment in Samarra, Red Meat,  First Born and Advanced Thanotology.  Sam calls him out on this behavior in Love Hurts.  Advanced Thanotology even has Dean acknowledging his tragic flaw and the mindset he has when he pulls signature move.  

This is the first time the show has acknowledged this behavior in text explicitly. It is part of the set-up for Dean saying yes to our Michael.  In doing this they have essentially set us up to watch the tragedy unfold with eyes wide open.  And now Dean knows what they need to get to save Mary and what they he needs to do.

[enaiowen]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Both brothers are flawed.  Their mother was flawed.   In fact as I noted in another post she exhibits the same behavioral traits that they do.

She is no worse than they are.

I mostly agree with this.  My problem with Mary has been and continues to be the fact that there are no layers.  Despite the boys' flaws, there is an inherent goodness and depth to them that I find lacking in Mary thus far.  I want to like the character and I get why she is the way she is right now but I need to see that there is more to her that what we have been shown up to now.  A little warmth and vulnerability would go a long way IMO. I realize they want to present her as this strong, capable hunter (whether or not they are doing that well is another topic) but I don't see why one has to preclude the other.

Edited March 4, 2018 by enaiowen

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Cas never was a monster before.   I think he is different and I think he deliberately f'd him. He fully admits that what he is doing is crossing a line he has never crossed and states he is doing it to prevent Donatello from buying his,friend or anyone else"... Deliberate choice to permanently f... him up.

" 'CASTIEL

I am going to do something that I promised I would never do to a human being without their permission. I’m gonna strip the spell from your mind...

CASTIEL

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to let you or anyone hurt the people I love. Not again.' "
 

Afterwards Cas admits it was intentionally justifies his actions.

" '[DEAN]

Yeah, but, Cas, you turned him into… he’s brain dead. Machines keeping him breathing. What’s wrong with you?

CASTIEL

Nothing...
His soul was gone. He was corrupted. He was a danger to himself and to you and to all of humanity. Did you know that he was working with Asmodeus?...

Not by choice, but he was. Some people just can’t be saved.

DEAN

Yeah, but who gets to make that choice? You? What exactly gives you the right?

CASTIEL

Nothing. I took it. And if I hadn’t acted, we would still be sitting around and talking about what to do next. We would be wasting time. And it’s time we don’t have, Dean. I told you, war is coming. War. And I did what soldiers do. Now we needed the spell to open the rift, and I got it. We need four major ingredients:

the grace of an archangel… a fruit from the Tree of Life… the Seal of Solomon… and the blood of “a most holy man.” We find those things, we can bring everybody home. And together, we can beat Lucifer and Michael. This is the only way we win, and this is the only way we survive.

[DEAN and SAM continue to look at CASTIEL as they process what he is saying.]

It’s like you said, Dean. Whatever it takes.' "

Mary said AU Michael was in her head.  The logical presumption is that he was looking for Intel.  The difference is AU Michael chose not to leave her brain dead.

I don’t think what AU Micheal was doing is the same as Cas & Donatello.  First, Michael was in no danger as Mary had no power.  And apparently there was no issue with Lucifer and Jack.  

OTOH Donatello was clear that the procedure could fry both he and Cas’s brain.  I DO think it’s possible that Cas didn’t just take a peek at the info but also removed it from his mind. Because he didn’t want to leave Donatello around to tell Asmodeus how to open the rift.  Now THAT (which might have happened) appears to be more than what Michael was doing. But again, Cas was also risking his own mind to get this data. That changes it from just doing something to Donatello and controlling the outcome and taking a risky action that resulted in Donatello’s state. 

Im reminded of Sam in S3. He grew colder as Dean’s deadline approached and he was desperate to save him.  I think cas has developed an obsession to save the Winchester’s and Jack.

Bottom Line: Only an evil person would deliberately render Donatello brain dead. I think Cas wanted the data as was prepared to accept the consequences for both himself and Donatello. I don’t think Cas is suddenly evil. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by SueB
Fixed Now to be Now vice Not

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did he apologize for choosing Ruby over him in season 4.  I remember him blaming Dean for pushing him to Ruby.  Did he apologize to anyone about starting the Apocalypse.

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

We see Dean grappling with guilt and remorse for his actions repeatedly but not sam until season 11.  And he didn't apologize for his actions in sesson 8 until season 11 When he was redeemed  and the editing  allowed him tto take responsibility.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Seasons 6-7 centered around Dean's reactions to betrayal and loss.  Dean got the best monster kills and the best badass moments.  Gamble had a hard on for Sam so the Sam pimping was nauseating.  I will never forgive Dean not becoming the next Phoenix after consuming its ash. 

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He also dedicates himself to hunting with his brother for the first time (atonement by dedicating his life to helping others) and vocakky decides to put  his faith in Dean effectively throwing out his hubric need to be thenone to do things because Dean is too wrsk (hubris). 3 cheers for Carver!!!

Taken over to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread.

[Dobian]

I had to laugh at alt-Bobby's watered down outrage over Jack.  "But he's one of them, he's a traitor!  Oh all right, you can spend the night and have some breakfast, but then you hit the road, hear?  Oh...and here's a gun, you should have a going away gift."  LOL

[Jonesy]

Some silly overreading on Cas--he did not enjoy or have pleasure with what he did to Donatello.  He was in warrior mode and did what he had to do to protect his loved ones from further harm and to help recue others.  No change on Cas except his capacity for love and connection(and yes emotion!) has increased over the years.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Jakes

[SueB]

Second Rewatch thoughts (See TL, DR for quick thoughts):
Preface: First time watching I was just overwhelemed with how much happened. And I wanted to pay closer attention to a somethings. This DEFINITELY feels like a episode that focused on the moral conundrums presented to our heroes and the choices they made. Which I think it ties into "Good Intentions" title -- that everyone WANTED to make good intended decisions but that it didn't always work out. So, with that background in mind, here's my more detailed thoughts and this time I'll go by character in order of moral conundrum presented:

Jack: Jack immediately rejects the illusion that Sam and Dean don't care for him and refuses to help Michael. I LOVE that it's the "power of love of the Winchesters" that has taken root in this kid's moral fiber. He's prepared to die rather than help Michael. As Mary points out, Michael will try to get to Jack by torturing/killing Mary. Notice that Jack doesn't actually say he would be able to resist that, instead he tries to get them out and succeeds. Later, he recalls Sam and Dean would not run from a fight (again! my cinnamon roll has imprinted onto the Winchesters and I'm delighted). And he decides to kill Angels rather than let them continue to kill humans. 

Sam, Dean & Cas: Getting the hearts of Gog and Magog. Obviously if they have hearts, they are lifeforms. And the first time through I was really bothered (like others) how quickly Dean & Cas go off to kill sentient beings. On the second watch, I think Glynn set up a LOT of uncertainty. First, Cas said he didn't think they were human. Second, Donatello admits their backstory is fuzzy (land or humans). Third, to get to Gog and Magog they have to first free them from some place that a priest stuck them because they were the bad guys. "Enslaving half the fertile crescent" puts them on Team Bad. So, I think there's doubt. It's not like Donatello said go to death row and get two hearts of murderers. I think the boys would have balked at that. I think the phrases "bind them in a place without a place and a time without a time", "I didn't think they were human", and "enslaved the fertile cresent' were meant to implly they were supernatural entities that may or maynot be human but were definitely bad news. But it didn't play strongly enough IMO. Because many came away with that reaction -- just gonna go carve out human hearts? So did the writing need to make it more ambiguous or did the writing intentionally take us to a "hey, what are they doing?" place. I'm not sure. And I don't think it was sufficiently one way or the other to say it worked well.

Mary- Tells Jack to let her be killed rather than open a rift. That's pretty much Winchester 101 so very little conundrum. I wonder if we had that scene to make remind us that self-sacrifice is the Winchester standard default. 

Bobby - Telling Mary she made the right choice regarding a demon deal. Revisiting this moral conundrum certainly implies 'family first' (as in John, her fiance), was the right call. But I'm not certain that's the take-away. I think it worked out because of who Sam and Dean are and whomever were the meatsuits they got instead were just not built to say "no" like Sam and Dean were. In sum... on surface it's a total vindication. But it also goes against Winchester 101 -- although EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THEM. has done some sort of Demon deal. Mary, John, Dean, Sam (implicit deal w/ Ruby to first save Dean and then get revenge on Lilith), Cas. So, it's provided good drama for 13 seasons but "right call" is debateable still IMO. 

Bobby - Telling Mary that Jack had to leave by morning once he realized he's a nephilim. Not much of a moral conundrum. Makes sense he'd protect his own.

Cas - stripping the spell out of Donatello and frying his brain. On second view I caught that there was also a risk that Cas would become brain fried. That tempers his decision a little for me. It was less "let me impose my will on you" and more "get the data, even if I risk us both". As I said on the other site, I think Cas has done a little Sam 'imprinting' and is solely focused on "whatever it takes". Sam got cold in S3 trying to save Dean. Dean thought Soulless Sam was just Sam acting like Dean. The Winchesters have gone "single-minded". So, I'd say this is the downside of imprinting off of the Winchesters -- they can be ruthless and do morally questionable things from time to time. 

Jack - I have to kill Michael. Well, that seems like the obvious answer. Doesn't roll off the tongue as quickly as "I have to kill the Devil", but in the AU, Michael is pretty much evil so, I'm not sure how much of a conundrum we have.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR on Conundrums: This was (IMO) a very morality-heavy episode. With Sam and Dean as our "guides", I'd have to say that the boys, Jack and Mary are "okay", Cas needs to dial it back a bit before he goes too far with the "ends justify the means" bit.


Other things I want to comment on:
- Mary & the headaches: I REALLY like that little angle Glynn used as a sign of warding being weaker in a particular location. Made sense and Mary's long term presence there allowed her to guide Jack immeidately to the best spot.
- Dean laughing at the loin cloth brothers: Dude. Did you see those thighs? They could crush you. You should have been more intimidated by those thighs rather than laugh at them. But, it was a funny scene, the ancient Canaanite bickering... only on Supernatural.
- Cas' death glare at Donatello. Oh honey. I don't Destiel but this definitely added fuel to that fire. Donatello hurt Dean and Cas wants to hurt him back. I'm okay with that level of love/loyalty. Cas can be so transparent sometime. 
- Sam snapping back immediately to depression. I think Dean is scared. I think he's stuck between Cas (on a 'ends justify the means' bender) and Sam (on a 'ready to throw in the towel' ledge). It's like having John back. He's gotta keep them all together and moving forward. Dean's issues will be put on the back burner. I don't know if we see him struggling to hide his feelings but he's definitely not showing any. I guess what I'm saying is that I think there's a valid reason for Dean being more level-headed right now and that's because that's what the team needs from him.
- Zachariah was not nearly petty enough. Michael is a little too evil. I need better motivation for the AU Angels. Right now they are kinda card-boardy.
- Did anyone else notice that it may be ONLY Michael who has wings? The other Angels show up via fireball. Did they somehow lose their wings? I wonder if they did and how that happened? Michael showed his when he first arrived. No one else has shown their wings. If they DO have wings, the fireballs make no sense, it broadcasts them coming.
- God-forged weapons. Those'll come in handy I hope.

In general, I like the episode. I think there was a LOT of set-up here for later use.

 

11 hours ago, Jakes said:

Some silly overreading on Cas--he did not enjoy or have pleasure with what he did to Donatello.  He was in warrior mode and did what he had to do to protect his loved ones from further harm and to help recue others.  No change on Cas except his capacity for love and connection(and yes emotion!) has increased over the years.

 

I agree that Cas showed no signs of getting pleasure from what he did to Donatello IMO.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

I guess what I'm saying is that I think there's a valid reason for Dean being more level-headed right now and that's because that's what the team needs from him.

I'd dearly like this to be true. I, personally, am this type of personality. I'm at my best when others are falling apart around me, when they need me. It's when nobody else is freaking out over a (perceived) bad thing that I tend to lose it. Alas, I'm not sure I have enough faith in this crew of writers - or more accurately, this showrunner, who SHOULD be keeping his writers on point - to believe that they are giving us layered storytelling for Dean. I tend to think they figure Dean had his turn, now it's Sam's/Cas's and Dean can just eat his bacon and cheerlead.