Waco - General Discussion

[Drogo]

In the series premiere, the ATF gets a tip of suspicious activity involving weapons taking place among a small religious community led by David Koresh and located at the Mount Carmel Center just outside of Waco, Texas.

[IntrovertRed]

Did anyone else watch this?  I hadn't intended to, but came across it as I was flipping through the channels.  I was about 19 or so when it happened and didn't pay much attention to the news back then.  Taylor Kitsch is going a good job making David Karesh charismatic.  Something I don't get is how all the couples agreed to become celibate.   And a parent myself, it's hard to fathom not trying to save them or choosing Karesh over them.  

[formerlyfreedom]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:05 PM, KLJ said:

Did anyone else watch this?

Due to a glut of Wednesday and Thursday night television, I finally got to this, and I have to say - I'm kind of blown away by it! Taylor Kitsch is doing a great job in his role, and I really liked Michael Shannon. I only have the vaguest memories of this when it occurred, as I was in the middle of a downward-spiraling relationship at the time, and was not at all into what was happening in the world that wasn't immediately around me.

When it was over, I found myself eager to see the next episode, and now I'm mad I have to wait! Off to the internet to do some 'research'!

[toodywoody]

I liked it and my daughter is now asking questions about it, which leads to other things that followed what happened at Waco

[Clanstarling]

I like Taylor Kitch as Koresh.

I remember Waco fairly clearly (though not in depth) and Ruby Ridge. They were both clusterfucks on the parts of the feds (mind you, I'm not particularly anti-fed, and certainly not pro cult or white separatists). 

I find cults fascinating, because I really don't understand willing giving up your life to people who tell you they know the answer. I may not have all the answers, but I don't believe anyone else does. 

The first episode was a little heavy handed on the Ruby Ridge tragedy, which was fairly complicated series of events but still a tragedy that didn't need to happen, and a little light handed on Koresh and his group (though when he said he "took the burden of sex" it did make me laugh, and set up just how weird the Branch Davidians were and maybe will lead to a somewhat darker depiction).

It's going to be pretty hard to balance two opposing sources' versions of the events. But I think I'm in. 

[Nancypants]

I'm watching this and am struck by how charismatic David Koesh actually was. 

And also how meek and stupid some of these ex followers are, especially the 2 white women with bad teeth. " we were sooo happyy" 

Nope.

[Whimsy]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:35 AM, Clanstarling said:

I like Taylor Kitch as Koresh.

I remember Waco fairly clearly (though not in depth) and Ruby Ridge. They were both clusterfucks on the parts of the feds (mind you, I'm not particularly anti-fed, and certainly not pro cult or white separatists). 

I find cults fascinating, because I really don't understand willing giving up your life to people who tell you they know the answer. I may not have all the answers, but I don't believe anyone else does. 

The first episode was a little heavy handed on the Ruby Ridge tragedy, which was fairly complicated series of events but still a tragedy that didn't need to happen, and a little light handed on Koresh and his group (though when he said he "took the burden of sex" it did make me laugh, and set up just how weird the Branch Davidians were and maybe will lead to a somewhat darker depiction).

It's going to be pretty hard to balance two opposing sources' versions of the events. But I think I'm in. 

I agree. I also don’t how people can follow these cult leaders and give up any of their own free will. And these people STILL believe after all these years! 

I also agree about seeing this from both sides. Although, it may be good to see the story this way since everyone was so very wrong in this situation. It was handled so very poorly all around. 

4 hours ago, Nancypants said:

I'm watching this and am struck by how charismatic David Koesh actually was. 

And also how meek and stupid some of these ex followers are, especially the 2 white women with bad teeth. " we were sooo happyy" 

Nope.

I am watching this now. I just finished watching Waco: Messiah or Madman on A&are and I think that’s helped me understand a lot, even though I also clearly remember when this happened as I was glued to the TV. But, I knew hi most people were right away since I watched the A&E show.  I am very surprised that Koresh’s followers still believe him to this day, so seeing a depiction of him may help me understand it a little. 

[Peppermint Patty]

Considering many of the people who survived and still believe lost spouses, children, and other family members there, I guess I can understand why some still believe. If they start to doubt, then it means they have to accept that their family members died for nothing or for a lie. It’s probably easier to accept it if you think it’s part of some divine plan.

Overall, I thought this episode portrayed Koresh too positively. While there were hints of a darker side, it felt like they were portraying him as sincere, but misguided. That just doesn’t seem accurate. I would imagine that the surviving (now adult) children who were beaten and molested take issue with it.

[MerBearStare]

On 1/28/2018 at 8:35 AM, Clanstarling said:

I remember Waco fairly clearly (though not in depth) and Ruby Ridge. They were both clusterfucks on the parts of the feds (mind you, I'm not particularly anti-fed, and certainly not pro cult or white separatists). 

Although I was only in 4th or 5th grade when Waco happened, I remember it fairly clearly as well because my family lived in Texas at the time, about an hour or two north of Waco. My parents watched the local news every evening and of course it was a story every night for about two months. Every time they hung a banner, every time some children were released, all over the news. Being only like 10-years-old at the time I thought the fire was the fault of the Branch Davidians - they were bad people which is why the cops were after them, so of course it was their fault. As an adult now, though, it's much more complicated than that. They bear some responsibility, I would say; there were legit reasons the ATF and FBI wanted to investigate them, but the onus on how it ended - and God, all those deaths - is mostly on the federal authorities. Like you I'm not a against the federal government, but my God, the incompetence they displayed at both Ruby Ridge and Waco is staggering. I don't know what happened to the FBI and ATF agents at Waco after it ended (I've got some googling to do), but I hope a lot of people were held accountable in some way.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, MerBearStare said:

but my God, the incompetence they displayed at both Ruby Ridge and Waco is staggering

Indeed. I thought so at the time. I had small children of my own then. It was heartbreaking and infuriating.

[margol29]

Koresh sure knows how to give the right answers. I can see why people followed him

I think given a few more days and even Jacob would be joining them.

[formerlyfreedom]

Yeah, I finally had time to watch this episode, and John Leguizamo does not disappoint! I did some wikipedia sleuthing afterwards, spoilertagging below -

Spoiler

Apparently it was Koresh's brother in law that was asked for directions -maybe he was a postal worker, but I didn't find that too clear.  And Leguizamo's character did try to stop the initial 'attack', although I am guessing it wasn't as cinematic as standing in the road and trying to futilely wave down the ATF.

Again, well done episode - I'm very eager to see the next episode.

[Turquoise]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:05 PM, KLJ said:

Did anyone else watch this?  I hadn't intended to, but came across it as I was flipping through the channels.  I was about 19 or so when it happened and didn't pay much attention to the news back then.  Taylor Kitsch is going a good job making David Karesh charismatic.  Something I don't get is how all the couples agreed to become celibate.   And a parent myself, it's hard to fathom not trying to save them or choosing Karesh over them.  

I was 7-ish months pregnant when the siege started, and got involved with the nightly news updates. Then my son was born about an hour before the explosion/fire at the compound. I remember holding my newborn and watching all those poor children go up in flames. 

[Jazzhands]

Is anybody else watching this show?  I’m feeling about it much like I’m feeling about American Crime Story this season.  I’ll be watching it and think it’s very well done overall, and I’m interested in the narrative storytelling and acting choices, but the entire time there’s a part of my brain asking whether it’s accurately representing what happened, and then an even bigger part that’s just disgusted with myself for watching an entertainment piece about the horrible and grisly deaths of actual people.  I’m really torn with both of these shows. 

[pasdetrois]

I'm watching this for Kitsch, Leguizamo and Shannon - all fine actors. Although Kitsch sounds like John Corbett.

Why is the series ignoring the abuse of the children, which was systematic and severe? I don't want to see it recreated on TV, but if I recall correctly, Janet Reno and others at DOJ stated that the reason for the rush to confront the compound was because of reports of child abuse.

And while I understand that Koresh was considered handsome and charismatic, this show portrays him as if he's the lead in Godspell. He was a pedophile in a mullet, hiding behind the Bible.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by pasdetrois

[Jazzhands]

I’ve wondered about this myself.  It seems like the show has alluded to the pedophilia/child abuse issues a couple of times in ways too cute by half (Koresh’s band playing “My Sharona” in the first gig; the threat in front of the undercover agent that the person who ate the ice cream was going to get a “licking”), and then put the blame not on Koresh but on Michelle’s older sister/Koresh’s first wife for selling out the 12-year-old Michelle to Koresh based on her own dream after Koresh’s supposed prophecy.  I’m not sure what the goal is, but it makes me very uncomfortable.  

[MerBearStare]

Christ almighty, the ATF, what a fucking shitshow they caused. David Koresh was a scumbag who raped young girls, don't get me wrong, but nobody deserves what happened at Waco, especially not the poor lost souls who followed him. 

On a lighter note, I think Taylor Kitsch, Michael Shannon, and John Leguizamo are all doing a wonderful job, especially Kitsch, who has the toughest character of all to play.

Edited February 10, 2018 by MerBearStare

[Jazzhands]

Agreed. The way to stop a crazy pedophile cult leader from raping and abusing young girls is not by opening fire on them and their families and burning them alive.  Why not pick up Koresh on one of the numerous occasions that he’s outside the compound?  Because that doesn’t make for exciting news footage?

Horrific.  

I also agree with your assessment of the acting.  I’m also really liking Rory Culkin in this.  I hope this will be the break Taylor Kitsch has been waiting for since FNL. It just seems like he should be a bigger star than he is. 

[Nmissi]

I'm impressed so far. The source material is relying on survivor's accounts, and the account of the hostage negotiator who wrote a book about the subject. It's much more evenhanded than previous attempts. (Anyone remember the tv movie that came out right after? Pure propaganda.) Yes, Koresh was a whackjob- but this was all on the ATF and FBI. They wanted to get headlines and look like heroes after they'd screwed up Ruby Ridge, and they made a giant mess. What blows me away is that the same guy who shot Vicky Weaver at Ruby Ridge was a sniper at Waco.  Sheesh. 

Overall, the acting is pretty good, too- the "Koresh" character nicely treads the line between religious zealot and sympathetic protagonist. I find myself hoping that things will play out differently, even when I know what's going to happen.  

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, Nmissi said:

They wanted to get headlines and look like heroes after they'd screwed up Ruby Ridge, and they made a giant mess.

Unless my memory is playing tricks, they got hugely rewarded in terms of budget increases after Ruby Ridge, and again after Waco.  I'm talking tens of millions of dollars.

[Peppermint Patty]

On 2/10/2018 at 1:49 AM, Jazzhands said:

I’ve wondered about this myself.  It seems like the show has alluded to the pedophilia/child abuse issues a couple of times in ways too cute by half (Koresh’s band playing “My Sharona” in the first gig; the threat in front of the undercover agent that the person who ate the ice cream was going to get a “licking”), and then put the blame not on Koresh but on Michelle’s older sister/Koresh’s first wife for selling out the 12-year-old Michelle to Koresh based on her own dream after Koresh’s supposed prophecy.  I’m not sure what the goal is, but it makes me very uncomfortable.  

It's bothering me, too. They are portraying Mt. Carmel's women as if they actually had any say or power in who David took as wives. The reality is that it was very patriarchal, with David at the head of it. Rachel Jones's dream was documented in Inside the Cult by Marc Breault and Martin King, but she was 14 when she married Vernon Howell/David Koresh. When Michelle was 12, Rachel would have been 17 - still a child, even though she was a mother. I don't like that they are putting the blame on a very young, very sheltered woman.

[msrachelj]

i am disgusted with the atf an the fbi. i don't remember what happened to them in terms of discipline. i'm thinking ,knowing how this country operates, nothing?  some of  those men should have gone to jail.  absolutely riveting tv .

acting is fantastic. who watched " boardwalk empire" ?  it's like a cast reunion.

[TGinKY]

I love Taylor Kitsch - he's very hot when not playing David Koresh. I was very happy to see Michael Shannon and Shea Whigham together again. They played brothers in Boardwalk Empire so I thought that was some great casting.

I was living in San Diego when this all went down. What stands out in my mind was I was looking at tvs at some electronics store and watching all of it go down on every tv in the place. It was surreal. I was literally surrounded on all sides by big tvs, watching it live. Everyone in the store was transfixed not believing what was happening right before our eyes. I went home with a new tv, totally shook up.

Edited February 12, 2018 by TGinKY

[TattleTeeny]

While I know it's not funny at all, my BF and I were joking about how the ATF was just so charged up for their super-cool raid, and as such, whining like kids who insist that something (the beach, an amusement park, camping, a party, whatever) is fine even if it's 12 degrees or pouring rain--"Awww, who cares if they know we're coming--it'll still be good! COME ON!"

Edited February 12, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[TGinKY]

10 hours ago, msrachelj said:

i am disgusted with the atf an the fbi. i don't remember what happened to them in terms of discipline. i'm thinking ,knowing how this country operates, nothing?  some of  those men should have gone to jail.  absolutely riveting tv .

acting is fantastic. who watched " boardwalk empire" ?  it's like a cast reunion.

I was a huge fan of Boardwalk Empire and now I'm watching on demand.  Seeing Michael and Shea together again is making me nostalgic. Next up will be Friday Night Lights because Taylor was beyond hot in that series.

[TGinKY]

It seemed to me that some of those babies were young enough to need formula. When the feds said they were going to bug the milk, I wondered how they were going to do that.  Then they explained they would bug the crate the milk was coming in. 

Michael Shannon is killing it. I loved the scene when he asked the little girl if she wanted to talk to her mom and she said no.  When he asked why, she said because you killed her. Michael's face sure can convey angst.

[msrachelj]

i kept saying the same thing. those babies can't drink cows milk , they needed formula! i wonder if it's just a tv thing or they really asked for MILK and got it. milk would not help those infants. 

i'm surprised there isn't more posting here. i think this series is great. love michael shannon . first saw him in boardwalk empire. everyone is doing great.  

[nkotb]

I recently saw a documentary on the Waco saga, & I remember it looking just like it did in the show, a delivery of cow's milk in crates. I'm not saying they couldn't have also brought in formula or vegetables & fruit, or any other food for them separately, but I do remember the gallons of milk. It stuck out, because both of my kids started on soy, because cow's milk was just too heavy for them (or something, they only had to do it a few months), but these kids apparently drank straight from the cow. 

This Culkin kid is really, really good. I've never seen Taylor Kitsch in anything before, but he's excellent, too. This cast will get some Emmys, I'm almost positive.

[whinewithwine]

I'm reading David Thibodeau's "Waco, A Survivor's Story" now.  I have no sympathy for Koresh, but reading about the effects of the CS gas the feds used on those people is gut wrenching.  The fact that it's banned on the battlefield but was used on American citizens by their government is indefensible.  How Janet Reno stayed as attorney general for eight years after that is a mystery to me.

I agree on the excellent acting, particularly Taylor Kitsch.  

[nkotb]

Ironic that you mention Janet Reno, we were just discussing at work that the timing of Waco was jut crazy. Bill Clinton took office in January, 1993, & he appointed Reno as Attorney General on February 11, mere days before the saga started. She wasn't confirmed until March 11, when it was already underway. I'm not at all defending her, but it is just crazy that both President Clinton & Attorney General Janet Reno barely had time to put up a picture on their brand new desks before this all went down. I can't imagine a worse way to start a new job that'll have you in the public eye for 8 years.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, nkotb said:

I can't imagine a worse way to start a new job that'll have you in the public eye for 8 years.

Also, I know Truman's sign said "The Buck Stops Here," and ultimately that is correct, but I find it hard to lay any actual responsibility at Clinton & Reno's doors for the actions of the Jack-Boots in the FBI and the ATF.  I am fairly confident that any information passed up the line by those agencies was carefully crafted to support the actions -- past and projected -- of those who wanted to push their own para-military agendas.

[TattleTeeny]

OK, no one is posting here but I have to know if anyone else noticed that, at the end, David Koresh was playing a song that was in The Lost Boys--one of the ones with that greasy sax guy on the pier stage! Haha, I yelled and startled my BF, who mocked me for recognizing it so quickly.

Edited February 23, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Netfoot]

You have to hand it to this show.

David Koresh was the kind of idiot who believed that with a world population in excess of 5½ billion people, God chose his asshole for the sun to shine out of!  He conceived a religious argument that allowed him to tell his followers that they shouldn't ball their wives -- but that they shouldn't worry, because he would do it for them.  And that he'd do their children too, just for good measure.  (The fact that he found followers stupid enough to swallow that shit doesn't make him any better.)  He was a loathsome creature who would have best been drowned at birth.

And yet, the Paramount Network has managed to make him more palatable than the jack-booted, law-enforcement scum that is the FBI and ATF, as depicted in this miniseries.  And just to be clear, I have no reason to believe that their depiction is anything other than realistic.

[Jazzhands]

3 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

OK, no one is posting here but I have to know if anyone else noticed that, at the end, David Koresh was playing a song that was in The Lost Boys--one of the es with that greasy sax guy on the pier stage! Haha, I yelled and startled my BF, who mocked me for recognizing it so quickly.

I sure did!  I listened to that soundtrack on my Walkman until the tape disintegrated.  I DVR’ed last night’s show and watched it after dinner this evening.  I can’t wait for my  husband to watch it this weekend.

I’d love to see Taylor Kitsch (as his glorious self, sans David Koresh mullet) and Rory Culkin playing that whole soundtrack.  “Good Times,” yes?

None is this, of course, is to take away from the horrific events depicted in the show, but I’m a late-80s girl at heart, and I love me some Lost Boys. 

[TattleTeeny]

Haha! I was seriously disproportionately excited: "Hey, that sounds like...IT IS!!!"

[Jazzhands]

I know!  I was jamming out on the couch and thinking what a horrible person I am because I am totally enjoying this moment but I also know that pretty soon most of the people in that compound are going to be burned alive. 

But I guess with a show like this, you take the bright points where you find them. 

[IntrovertRed]

On 2/19/2018 at 7:21 PM, whinewithwine said:

I'm reading David Thibodeau's "Waco, A Survivor's Story" now.  I have no sympathy for Koresh, but reading about the effects of the CS gas the feds used on those people is gut wrenching.  The fact that it's banned on the battlefield but was used on American citizens by their government is indefensible.  How Janet Reno stayed as attorney general for eight years after that is a mystery to me.

I agree on the excellent acting, particularly Taylor Kitsch.  

I'm curious, how does he look back on David Koresh? Does he feel like David was crazy?  I've seen interviews with him and he's difficult to read. He's condemned the child abuse, but that's it, from what I've seen anyway.  And was he really 'involved' with David's 'wife', Michelle?  

I just can't get over the power David has over them. What would he have done if they all walked out?  Koresh was a master manipulator. 

[Jazzhands]

I wonder what would’ve happened if the ATF had just picked up Koresh when he was out shopping or going for a run. Would the others have stayed faithful to him and taken his directions from jail, selected a new leader to follow, or disbanded?

I’ve been thinking about ordering the book, so I think I’m just going to have to do that.  I remember watching this on TV as it unfolded, but in the intervening years I’ve forgotten a lot of the details. 

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Jazzhands said:

I wonder what would’ve happened if the ATF had just picked up Koresh when he was out shopping or going for a run. Would the others have stayed faithful to him and taken his directions from jail, selected a new leader to follow, or disbanded?

. 

If I recall correctly, that was one of the major criticisms during that time, that they should have picked up koresh while I was out of the compound.

It was a tragedy all around.

[sadie]

Count me in the geek squad. I recognized the song immediately.

I’m unsure why the producers have downplayed what a monster this guy was. What I’ve read makes it clear he was abusive, unhinged, raped underage girls and was not in any way the quasi hero they are portraying here. I’m still enjoying the hell out of this series but with worthwhile skepticism. 

[TattleTeeny]

I think it's one of those black-or-white false equivalency situations: because the ATF and FBI did wrong things, people somehow jump to the conclusion that David Koresh did only right things, as if it's impossible to label Entity A bad without also having to label Entity B good. You see it all the time in the Real Housewives threads, haha!

[Netfoot]

9 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

because the ATF and FBI did wrong things, people somehow jump to the conclusion that David Koresh did only right things

I can't see anyone easily concluding that Koresh's acts were anything but mind-numbingly stupid and evil.  But this patently doesn't make the actions of the ATF/FBI anything other than stupid, corrupt, inept, bungling, self-serving, short-sighted and ultimately evil as well.  They should all burn in hell!

[TattleTeeny]

I've actually never come across anyone who viewed Koresh as some kind of innocent martyr; I think most people, even while acknowledging the excessive actions of the ATF and FBI, probably think the compound deserved what it got. 

[Netfoot]

53 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I think most people [...] probably think the compound deserved what it got. 

I'm not sure about that.  Koresh deserved weighty punishment indeed.  But the remainder of the group?  Perhaps not.  Certainly not to the extent that they were shot, shelled, gassed and burnt alive -- man, woman and child.

[TattleTeeny]

I know that--I'm just basing that comment on what I have experienced as far as the opinions of other people. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by TattleTeeny

[Laurie4H]

Yes I recognized the song also and told my husband it was from the Lost Boys.  I was singing the saxophone part (that was absent from this version).  

[Peppermint Patty]

On 2/22/2018 at 10:11 PM, KLJ said:

I'm curious, how does he look back on David Koresh? Does he feel like David was crazy?  I've seen interviews with him and he's difficult to read. He's condemned the child abuse, but that's it, from what I've seen anyway.  And was he really 'involved' with David's 'wife', Michelle?  

I just can't get over the power David has over them. What would he have done if they all walked out?  Koresh was a master manipulator. 

From reading other books and articles on the subject, his marriage to Michelle was purely a sham marriage. Koresh kept the men and women very separated, and I think Thibodeau's interaction with her was limited. He said in his book that she would do things like minor sewing for him, but that was the extent of it. I'd be curious to know if he actually still believes in David, but I doubt he does completely. It has been a long time, and life moves on.

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, Peppermint Patty said:

From reading other books and articles on the subject, his marriage to Michelle was purely a sham marriage. Koresh kept the men and women very separated, and I think Thibodeau's interaction with her was limited. He said in his book that she would do things like minor sewing for him, but that was the extent of it. I'd be curious to know if he actually still believes in David, but I doubt he does completely. It has been a long time, and life moves on.

We watched a Waco documentary on Hulu

 I am not sure when it came out, but they interviewed both the feds and the survivors. Thibidoux stuck pretty much to the events from the perspective of having gone through it, I didn't come away with much sense of his religious beliefs. There were also some interviews of the now grown children who were released. Anyway, there were some who was still true believers in. And there are still Branch Davidians. Go figure.

There were some things not really addressed in this series so far, but it was interesting to see the different perspectives. Whatever perspective, it was a tragedy and monumental screw up, both during the stand off and after. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Unclejosh]

I watched one documentary and some of the people who got out are still hardcore believers and one of the dad's whose daughter was 14 still has no problem with Koresh marrying and nailing her because she was old enough to make her own decision.  Just insane to me.

Also the one woman is still in love with DK and said giving up her husband was no problem and make sleeping with David sound like a rapturous event because God chose her to be with him.  Crazy pants.  Kat Schroeder is her name.

Livingston Fagan still believes Koresh will come back.  

[peach]

On 1/31/2018 at 8:39 PM, Peppermint Patty said:

Considering many of the people who survived and still believe lost spouses, children, and other family members there, I guess I can understand why some still believe. If they start to doubt, then it means they have to accept that their family members died for nothing or for a lie. It’s probably easier to accept it if you think it’s part of some divine plan.

Overall, I thought this episode portrayed Koresh too positively. While there were hints of a darker side, it felt like they were portraying him as sincere, but misguided. That just doesn’t seem accurate. I would imagine that the surviving (now adult) children who were beaten and molested take issue with it.

Great point.  Admitting they were wrong would destroy some of them psychologically.

My guess is that the reason they're portraying him this positively is to show how he did charm them into following him.  It's a representation of how they saw him and themselves.  I've only seen part of the series, so maybe that changes, I don't know.
 

On 1/28/2018 at 8:35 AM, Clanstarling said:

 (though when he said he "took the burden of sex" it did make me laugh, and set up just how weird the Branch Davidians were and maybe will lead to a somewhat darker depiction).

I loved the skeptical look that Thibodeaux flashed him when he said that.