S01.E06: Ascension

[pezgirl7]

5 hours ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

So, is the theory among other watchers that there were two killers, both with "silver smiles" (one being the late Van Bergen), or that the "silver smile" is coincidental and not that uncommon and that whoever the remaining living killer is is responsible for all of the murders?

My theory is that Willem was the only one with the silver smile, and is a red herring, and didn't murder anyone. Sally only said that Gloria had a rich client with a silver smile who was with him the night he died, but that doesn't mean he's the killer. We later learned the killer snuck in through the window, so no one saw him. I think it's just a coincidence that the killer also has some kind of discerning facial feature. Ali asked the killer what was wrong with his mouth. Not teeth, but mouth.

[Hazel55]

35 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Do we know if Van Bergen ever killed anybody?  All we saw was him attempting to roofie a boy he was with, but I don't think there was evidence of him being a killer.  

At this point, I'd say Van Begen almost surely did not kill anyone. He was guilty of being a pervert (12 to 14 years old was his preference, apparently) and possibly a rapist (did he put that stuff in the boys drink to knock him out?), but he was only tenuously connected to the murders from the beginning. Byrnes suspected him and contacted his family based on WIllems sexual preference for young boys and the fact that Willem frequented Willem frequented the Golden Rule, the place where one of the victims worked. From there, many cops and high society types began assuming it might be Willem, based on the fact that he had access, was attracted to boys that age, and was clearly a little bit "off."

As for Sarah, all she knew was that Willem had been involved in what appeared to be a concealed instance of sex or possibly rape of a young boy years ago. 

We also know from Sally that Willem liked to frequent the first victim, however, all that means is that Willem had had sex with the first boy. 

Interestingly, we've seen other shots that have been suggested to be "the killer" that didn't look or sound like Van Bergen. For instance, in the beginning, a mysterious stranger offers to take a harassed boy "away," and it does not sound like Van Bergen's voice. In another such creepy scene, a man who is clearly not Van Bergen murmurs, "Come closer child!" The boy then responds, "What is wrong with your mouth?" But this doesn't necessarily have to refer to a silver smile-- it could indicate any irregularity or deformity of the mouth that the real killer might have. 

Also, the man who Joseph mentions, who apparently offered to take Fatima away to live in "a castle in the sky," was not noted to have a silver smile, was he? He also sounded a lot like the boy Stevie talked to in episode 6.

So, I'd wager that Van Bergen never killed anyone. His sexual preferences and the fact that he frequented at least one of the victims made him look highly suspicious, though. 

[qtpye]

Quote

Stevie looked like he was looking at the devil when he was talking to the killer.

One thing that the sting accomplished was that Stevie got a good look at the killer. Unfortunately, it will not help that last poor child, but might help our Scooby gang catch the real murderer.

[Pachengala]

13 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

From there, many cops and high society types began assuming it might be Willem, based on the fact that he had access, was attracted to boys that age, and was clearly a little bit "off.”

And the ‘incident’ with the boy at the Episcopalian church (orphanage?) appears to be common knowledge amongst the police as well. Speaking of that though, Van Bergen’s preference for the clean, angelic choirboy type was such that it clued Laszlo in that he’s not the killer, and yet Van Bergen is frequenting the same establishments and victimizing the same boys as the killer, so that doesn’t jibe to me. 

[pezgirl7]

6 hours ago, Pachengala said:

And the ‘incident’ with the boy at the Episcopalian church (orphanage?) appears to be common knowledge amongst the police as well. Speaking of that though, Van Bergen’s preference for the clean, angelic choirboy type was such that it clued Laszlo in that he’s not the killer, and yet Van Bergen is frequenting the same establishments and victimizing the same boys as the killer, so that doesn’t jibe to me. 

I thought the thing that clued Laszlo in that Willem wasn't the killer is that the killer is picking boys from the same social class that the killer is from. So that would rule out Willem.

[Shorty186]

I also think the dead boy at the end was Rosie, as that would tie in to the beginning of the episode when he petted the dead horse. 

I don't get why Connor was still involving himself with Van Bergen since he'd been fired. Was he still following Byrnes' orders in hopes to be reinstated? I never understood him protecting Van Bergen since it was clear he hated him. Killing him makes much more sense, although I didn't think he would shoot him. The fall would have been enough to kill him - and less messy.

[sjohnson]

If Connor had boldly walked to the edge where Van Bergen stood, Van Bergen may have pushed him off first. Or grabbed hold of him as he toppled, taking Connor with him. People use guns to kill people because the guns make much easier and safer for them. 

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, Pachengala said:

And the ‘incident’ with the boy at the Episcopalian church (orphanage?) appears to be common knowledge amongst the police as well. Speaking of that though, Van Bergen’s preference for the clean, angelic choirboy type was such that it clued Laszlo in that he’s not the killer, and yet Van Bergen is frequenting the same establishments and victimizing the same boys as the killer, so that doesn’t jibe to me. 

But all of the murdered boys have been Immigrant children.  Laszlo believes the killer is an immigrant himself, because of that letter he wrote.  The boy in Willam's home, the one wearing the dress, looked to be closer to someone in Willam's own class.

[mccartygirl]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:53 AM, Haleth said:

He was abusing children.  He got off easy.

I don't disagree and with his behavior, he got what he deserved. My point is that he might have been "normal" if his mom hadn't creeped up on him as a child. His mom was creepy as all get out 

[pezgirl7]

4 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

I don't get why Connor was still involving himself with Van Bergen since he'd been fired. Was he still following Byrnes' orders in hopes to be reinstated? I never understood him protecting Van Bergen since it was clear he hated him. Killing him makes much more sense, although I didn't think he would shoot him. The fall would have been enough to kill him - and less messy.

I think he just wanted revenge on Willem because if it weren't for him, he wouldn't have lost his job.  Willem's parents were paying the dirty cops, including Connor I'm assuming, to protect Willem, and Connor got fired because Roosevelt figured that out.

[Kaiju Ballet]

On 2/27/2018 at 8:55 AM, BonnieD said:

Also, noticed they showed dirty fingernails when he touched Stevie's face, signifying a working man, which is pretty much what Kreizler had said--he come from a similar background as these boys. 

 

On 2/27/2018 at 9:20 AM, BingeyKohan said:

Good catch above on the dirty fingernails!

I also noticed the dirty fingernails on the boy buying an egg cream. That was a charming exchange between Moore and him. (Which boy was it, btw?) All of the boy actors have been disturbingly effective in their portrayals of jaded child prostitutes.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:53 PM, qtpye said:

It is really something about the brutality of the time to see so many children living in such wretched filth and poverty.  A little child playing marbles next to a dead rotting horse.  The truth is in many places in the world this is still the way life is for poor children.  I guess it is like the Europeans who are shocked at the homeless in NYC and other American big cities, but the people living there are used to it.

It did present the child brothels like a plausible, relatively luxurious option for an orphan who would otherwise have to sleep in the gutter or a rat-infested tenement.

On 2/28/2018 at 12:32 PM, jrlr said:

I was really hoping Sarah would slap the increasingly insufferable Kreizler right back, and hard. 

Me too, but I thought her shocked stare was extremely realistic, and mirrored Mary's mute stare at Kreizler when he attended to her cut finger. (Although I would imagine the germs in his saliva could negate any coagulant properties...) Like several other posters, I was skeptical of DF at the beginning, and now she's made Sarah even more fascinating than Kreizler for me.

I'm also confused about the timeline for the boy found at the base of the Statue of Liberty (thanks to the poster above who identified him as Rosie.) At first I thought the "Man of God' or whatever the suspicious dude running away on the rooftop called himself was let off too easily. After all, isn't the killer supposed to strike on Catholic holy days?

[Pachengala]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

But all of the murdered boys have been Immigrant children.  Laszlo believes the killer is an immigrant himself, because of that letter he wrote.  The boy in Willam's home, the one wearing the dress, looked to be closer to someone in Willam's own class.

Innnnnnnnteresting...I think he was still a prostitute—he asked if he could keep the dress—but now that you mention it, Willem did approach him in the sweet shop, not in a brothel. But still, Laszlo’s epiphany about Willem liking the choirboy type still doesn’t necessarily  square up, because we know, due to the silver smile comment, that he does sleep with immigrant boys too. Or at least Gloria. (Unless ‘silver smile’ isn’t referring to him, which would be too big a coincidence to forgive.)

Basically, the killer being an immigrant I’m fine with, but I don’t get Laszlo so easily ruling Willem out as the murderer. Because he DOES frequent the brothel boys. 

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

Innnnnnnnteresting...I think he was still a prostitute—he asked if he could keep the dress—but now that you mention it, Willem did approach him in the sweet shop, not in a brothel. But still, Laszlo’s epiphany about Willem liking the choirboy type still doesn’t necessarily  square up, because we know, due to the silver smile comment, that he does sleep with immigrant boys too. Or at least Gloria. (Unless ‘silver smile’ isn’t referring to him, which would be too big a coincidence to forgive.)

Basically, the killer being an immigrant I’m fine with, but I don’t get Laszlo so easily ruling Willem out as the murderer. Because he DOES frequent the brothel boys. 

I'm a little foggy on it as well.  Is it because Laszlo figured out the killer was killing on Catholic Holy Days and that meant he was more likely to be an immigrant then part of the the "First 400"?  Do Anglicans have the same type of day?  I have no idea if Willem was Anglican, but he did volunteer at the church.  I would imagine that most of the settlers that descended from the original Dutch families were Protestant.

[Rosieroo]

How did Stevie know the man talking to him was the killer?  Moore had told him to look for the "silver smile" but if that was Willem and he's not our killer, how did Stevie identify him? 

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, Rosieroo said:

How did Stevie know the man talking to him was the killer?  Moore had told him to look for the "silver smile" but if that was Willem and he's not our killer, how did Stevie identify him? 

Because Stevie knew the killer's MO included telling the victims he would take them away to a castle. Most customers in a brothel intend to use the facilities but this man wanted to take Stevie somewhere else

[Pachengala]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

I'm a little foggy on it as well.  Is it because Laszlo figured out the killer was killing on Catholic Holy Days and that meant he was more likely to be an immigrant then part of the the "First 400"?  Do Anglicans have the same type of day?  I have no idea if Willem was Anglican, but he did volunteer at the church.  I would imagine that most of the settlers that descended from the original Dutch families were Protestant.

That’s some interesting speculation. I know a lot of questions will be answered as the series unfolds, but since Willem’s dead (and was also apparently a red herring) I guess we’re just going to be left wondering! 

[kay1864]

On 2/27/2018 at 1:12 AM, Hazel55 said:

thinks that lighting a big cigarette twice during a stakeout is a good judgement call. 

I could have my history wrong, but it seems like there's way too much cigarette smoking in this show.  IIRC cigars (and maybe pipes) were smoked, as mass-produced cigarettes weren't widespread at the time.  Less than 0.5% of the populace smoked more than two cigarettes a week in 1901.  IIRC cigarettes didn't become widely used until WWII soldiers found them in their ration tins.

Dunno what the mores were about women (even progressive ones like Sara) smoking then.

On 2/27/2018 at 7:13 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yes, I was shaking my head when Sara and Laszlo were told to sit this one out because a vagina and only one functional arm disqualify you from using your eyeballs and mouth.

Although Laszlo's arm has been mentioned before, has it really been limp all along?  I didn't notice it until this episode, when it was resting in his lap while he was eating.  It seems like until it was a plot point, his arm was functioning more or less normally.  Or did I just not notice it?

[kay1864]

On 2/26/2018 at 10:00 PM, Neurochick said:

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by kay1864
My questions was already answered.

[sjohnson]

47 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

I could have my history wrong, but it seems like there's way too much cigarette smoking in this show.  IIRC cigars (and maybe pipes) were smoked, as mass-produced cigarettes weren't widespread at the time.  Less than 0.5% of the populace smoked more than two cigarettes a week in 1901.  IIRC cigarettes didn't become widely used until WWII soldiers found them in their ration tins.

Hand rolled cigarettes were indeed the norm. Machine rolled cigarettes were luxury goods, but most (all?) of the characters smoking them in the show can afford such luxuries. 

And it was most certainly bold of Sarah to smoke. That was the sort of thing a George Sand would do.

[pezgirl7]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:02 AM, Pachengala said:

Basically, the killer being an immigrant I’m fine with, but I don’t get Laszlo so easily ruling Willem out as the murderer. Because he DOES frequent the brothel boys. 

I watched episode 5 again, when he comes to this conclusion, and he only says that the choir boys in the church that Willem grew up in are a far cry from the boys being murdered. And because he thinks that the killer is from the same social class as the boys being murdered, that would rule out Willem. I didn't hear anything where he said that Willem only liked the choir boy type.

[Pachengala]

2 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I watched episode 5 again, when he comes to this conclusion, and he only says that the choir boys in the church that Willem grew up in are a far cry from the boys being murdered. And because he thinks that the killer is from the same social class as the boys being murdered, that would rule out Willem. I didn't hear anything where he said that Willem only liked the choir boy type.

Ahhhhhh I must have misinterpreted what Kreizler was saying about the choirboys then. I should watch it again too. Thanks!

[kay1864]

5 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Hand rolled cigarettes were indeed the norm. Machine rolled cigarettes were luxury goods, but most (all?) of the characters smoking them in the show can afford such luxuries. 

Agreed... but there's still that 0.5%  that the show is exceeding wildly on a regular basis.  The level of smoking just doesn't seem to be a norm for the time, whether hand-rolled or machine-made. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by kay1864

[JCW]

On 26/02/2018 at 10:19 PM, 88Keys said:

Not anymore, he isn't!  Even though Cooper is kind of the second antagonist of this show, that genuinely surprised me.  

 

Who exactly is Cooper? If you are talking about the Irish police captain who was fired by Roosevelt Wasn't his name was Connor?

[PamelaMaeSnap]

This may be nit-picking but if the point that the children being killed are all immigrants is key then maybe not ... not positive how it would have been "defined" in that period but I'm pretty sure that they have said that one of the children killed -- I think the first one, so before the show's action actually began? -- was "Negro" (that was the term used in the notebook) ... so I'm guessing that he would not have been considered an immigrant in the concept of being recently arrived on these shores, but of the same lower-tier of kids economically? Not sure if this is relevant but thought I'd mention it ... we have seen a few African-American children scattered in among the boys though mostly lighter skinned it seems. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

 

Clip: Stevie and the killer

Edited March 6, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Rosieroo]

Quote

  ON 3/4/2018 AT 5:16 AM, ROSIEROO SAID:

How did Stevie know the man talking to him was the killer?  Moore had told him to look for the "silver smile" but if that was Willem and he's not our killer, how did Stevie identify him? 

Because Stevie knew the killer's MO included telling the victims he would take them away to a castle. Most customers in a brothel intend to use the facilities but this man wanted to take Stevie somewhere else

Thank you, I rewatched and caught the castle part which is normal for me with this show. I only manage to catch about half of what's going on the first time around....and I still don't know what's going on most of the time.  

[Reality police]

20 hours ago, Rosieroo said:

Thank you, I rewatched and caught the castle part which is normal for me with this show. I only manage to catch about half of what's going on the first time around....and I still don't know what's going on most of the time.  

I will watch each episode two or three times. I seem to catch something new each time. I also love reading the comments here because so many posters will see something differently than I do. It's nice to see different takes on what is happening.

[millennium]

I watched the "behind the scenes" feature after this week's episode and was both amused and dismayed that Dakota Fanning, who affects the perfectly normal voice of a well-spoken young woman when playing Sarah, actually speaks with an obnoxious vocal fry in everyday life that makes her sound like an idiot.   Which voice is real?

Edited April 3, 2018 by millennium

[Aliferously]

At this point, I really don't care who ends up with who. It's not a show that needs additional romantic hook ups to make it interesting.

Although they all seem to play well together, no one has an ounce of romantic chemistry with the other.

Ahem.

The scene that stood out most to me was the children in the (I don't know what the exact word for it is, sorry) cellar. How Kreizler stood there conflicted and then choosing to walk away.

I didn't know what to make of it. Contrasted with the immediate jump to the charity auction, it really gives you a sense of how contrasting the rich/poor divide actually was (and most likely still is in a way). The rich can auction off half their junk to save neglected children, without actually ever seeing one.

Poor Sally/Joseph. The killer must have made off with him when they weren't looking.

[LadyChaos]

Figured Van Bueren was a red herring.