S05.E02: Cartouche

[Popples]

"Mammoth Pictures" as the studio for the mummy films. Cute.

The entire time I kept waiting for Strange to bust on Morse when he would find out who Carol was, and I'm slightly disappointed that he didn't get a chance to figure it out at the end since he didn't see her after that.

Charlie was the uncle Joan mentioned in Harvest last series. Thursday looked soooo uncomfortable with his worlds colliding. And it was nice he and Joan had a conversation that didn't end in an argument.

Thursday reminiscing about going to the pictures in his youth was adorable. As was his frustration with Morse who couldn't' see the big deal.

[Dessert]

I don’t know what to think about the mystery in this episode, but the personal parts were fun. World’s collided to hilarious effect - Fred’s brother and Bright, Morse’s sex life and the Thursdays - sqirming all around, with poor Strange as a nonplussed bystander. Morse’s conversation with Joan about Carol was priceless. He seemed to be hoping a trap door would suddenly swallow him up.

[sempervivum]

I had trouble following the murder/plot. The one armed doorman went through all that stuff with poison straws and olives just to take revenge 50 years after his battalion (or whatever it was) was sent to their deaths by Valderama? He had a gun, why didn't he just shoot him? Once again (like last week), a laughably gaudy and inefficient method-kind of reminds me of old James Bond movies, where the villain finds 'fiendishly' complicated and byzantine ways to kill Bond, which of course never work.

I realize I don't even know who killed the first victim, the retired cop who (I think) stole the Egyptian cartouche; nor am I clear on why or for whom he stole it.

Somehow, I don't think poor Thursday will ever again see the money he loaned to his sleazy brother.

Edited July 2, 2018 by sempervivum
reworded

[jjj]

Huh, the first post in this thread, from the British airing, mentions that Thursday was reminiscing about going to the cinema when he was young.  Did we see that?  I did watch the entire episode, but don't remember a scene like that.

The red letters in the credits spell out:  "RIVERS OF BLOOD" -- a speech made in Britain 50 years ago, vigorously arguing against racial integration and inciting strong reactions on many sides.  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/world/europe/bbc-rivers-of-blood-enoch-powell.html  

Edited July 2, 2018 by jjj

[Dessert]

8 minutes ago, jjj said:

Huh, the first post in this thread, from the British airing, mentions that Thursday was reminiscing about going to the cinema when he was young.  Did we see that?  I did watch the entire episode, but don't remember a scene like that.

I was looking for it and didn’t see it either. Apparently they always delete some scenes to make it shorter or PBS. So irritating.

[magdalene]

Why was the retired cop killed?  I was very much entertained by the episode but I can't say I totally understand the case of the week.

I had to laugh when Morse's one night stand came back to bite him in the ass in the most awkward way possible.

I am assuming poor Thursday gave his life savings to his sleazeball brother. Well, he'll never see that money again.

[Ms Lark]

It's odd, but I was more bugged by Carol's appearance than anything! She wore red earrings to match her coat collar, not her outfit. Her outfit was yellow and back then, red accessories with yellow was what my mom called "ketchup on scrambled eggs." A fashion no-no. Also, her bloated trout pout was not even "a look" in those days. I found her to be miscast and very poorly costumed. Glad she left town.

Have seen two retro detective shows this week with attempted murders by celluloid film fire! A rerun of Father Brown and this. Not one of the best, pretty lame murder plot. Did like Thursday and Joan's reunion, at long last.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Ms Lark
grammar.

[tootsie]

These kinds of tortured -clue episodes make me happy. So very (unnecessarily) complicated! Just like our Morse. As an early and longtime Morse fan, I found the self-reflection by Morse about dying as a solitary drunk with no family and Thursday's response that Morse would make better choices quite poignant. (O, Remorseful Day!) I also liked the ending and the burning man (which I usually find loathsome) because it was a horror show ending within a show about a horror show. So badguy was burning and destroying his own properties for the insurance money? But who stabbed the winking money collector? Did the cafe owner and his daughter have ANYTHING to do with the story? Another viewing is in order, I guess. Maybe I missed the tiger, too ?

[jjj]

I also was very distracted by Carol's very plumped lips -- she is so young that I assume that is just her natural lip shape, but the glossy lipstick was a poor choice, which just focused our attention on her lips.  

4 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

It's odd, but I was more bugged by Carol's appearance than anything! She wore red earrings to match her coat collar, not her outfit. Her outfit was yellow and back then, red accessories with yellow was what my mom called "ketchup on scrambled eggs." A fashion no-no. Also, her bloated trout pout was not even "a look" in those days. I found her to be miscast and very poorly costumed. Glad she left town.

Have seen two retro detective shows this week with attempted murders by celluloid film fire! A rerun of Father Brown and this. Not one of the best, pretty lame murder plot. Did like Thursday and Joan's reunion, at long last.

[2727]

Is this the scene that was missing in the U.S. airing?

Setting: the lobby of the Roxy.

Thursday, looking at movie poster: One for the teens. Emil Vandemar must be 80 if he's a day.

Morse: He's doing some sort of talk here.

Thursday: Proper old picture house. Don't get many like this any more. We used to go down to the Mile End Riverly of a Saturday morning. The threepenny rush. [Laughs} I'd go in first and spring the window in the gents for Chaz and Billy. You ever go?

Morse: Where? Saturday morning pictures?

[Thursday nods]

Morse:  My mother took me once. All that screaming in the dark; it's like something out of Dante.

[Thursday scoffs]

Morse: Well, I couldn't hear the film.

Thursday: You don't know what you're missing. Couple of maroon cartoons, the serials. A western if you're lucky. Tom Mix. Mind you, my favorite was always Laurel and Hardy. "B-I-itme. Bit me!" [Laughs]

[Morse looks uncomprehending]

Thursday: It's gone now. Buzz bomb got it.

Thursday: Look, about Carol. Don't feel like you have to show her around on my account.

[Morse stammers]

The conversation is interrupted when the assistant manager comes in.

[jjj]

You are right, that scene was not in the US version!  Too bad, it sounds like a great moment!

1 hour ago, 2727 said:

Is this the scene that was missing in the U.S. airing?

Setting: the lobby of the Roxy.

Thursday, looking at movie poster: One for the teens. Emil Vandemar must be 80 if he's a day.

Morse: He's doing some sort of talk here.

Thursday: Proper old picture house. Don't get many like this any more. We used to go down to the Mile End Riverly of a Saturday morning. The threepenny rush. [Laughs} I'd go in first and spring the window in the gents for Chaz and Billy. You ever go?

Morse: Where? Saturday morning pictures?

[Thursday nods]

Morse:  My mother took me once. All that screaming in the dark; it's like something out of Dante.

[Thursday scoffs]

Morse: Well, I couldn't hear the film.

Thursday: You don't know what you're missing. Couple of maroon cartoons, the serials. A western if you're lucky. Tom Mix. Mind you, my favorite was always Laurel and Hardy. "B-I-itme. Bit me!" [Laughs]

[Morse looks uncomprehending]

Thursday: It's gone now. Buzz bomb got it.

Thursday: Look, about Carol. Don't feel like you have to show her around on my account.

[Morse stammers]

The conversation is interrupted when the assistant manager comes in.

Edited July 2, 2018 by jjj

[skippy]

29 minutes ago, jjj said:

You are right, that scene was not in the US version!  Too bad, it sounds like a great moment!

I just watched this last night in U.S. and I recall this scene.  Am I going crazy?  Does anyone else in U.S. recall it?

[jjj]

Just now, skippy said:

I just watched this last night in U.S. and I recall this scene.  Am I going crazy?  Does anyone else in U.S. recall it?

I did not step away from the screen at all, and just do not remember that!  

[skippy]

1 minute ago, jjj said:

I did not step away from the screen at all, and just do not remember that!  

It will be interesting to see if anyone else remembers it!

[Anothermi]

I saw it, but at the UK pace, so it wouldn't have been cut.  I think it was the first time Morse and Thursday went to the cinema to interview people (during a show no less).  I remember it because I read on another forum that was where the picture of Colin Dexter could be found. (He used to make cameo appearances every Morse, Lewis and Endeavour episode. This was not long after he died and they started inserting a picture of him in the background of one shot as remembrance.)

So that bit was before they talked with the young guy who sometimes ran the projector and the young woman who sold snacks from a tray during the show. The opportunity to see the Colin Dexter "cameo" was just before the missing scene when they were speaking with the cashier. I wonder if they cut it as well?

[Popples]

I tried to find the scene at the cinema on YouTube, but it's not there. Some of it is in .gif form on Tumblr.

Warning: The other posts on that Tumblr can get spoilery.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Popples
Auto-correct really wants to put an "e' in"Tumblr".

[Magnumfangirl]

This one was so contrived.  Morse's random girl was Fred's niece, Joan just happens to work at the advice center, and the underlying political issues; it  was all so eyeroll worthy.  Like everybody else, I don't know what the cafe story had to do with any of it.  I assume they are going to come back to that story.

[SusanSunflower]

"the poisoned straw" which I accepted in the story on viewing, now rather seriously bugs me .... so it goes. 

[jjj]

2 hours ago, Magnumfangirl said:

This one was so contrived.  Morse's random girl was Fred's niece, Joan just happens to work at the advice center, and the underlying political issues; it  was all so eyeroll worthy.  Like everybody else, I don't know what the cafe story had to do with any of it.  I assume they are going to come back to that story.

I was surprised they (Thursday and Morse) were not more concerned about Joan after having a brick heaved in her direction and her place of employment burned down.  And she was quite bland about the fact that the building had a major fire -- not concerned about anything that I remember.  I still want to re-watch the first episode (last week), but I have no interest in seeing this one again.  (Unless someone tells me the mysterious conversation about ye olde tymes at the cinema can be viewed!  Right now, that is more of a mystery than the plot this week.)  And by the way, Carol pretty breezily moved on to Mr. Movie Star the minute she saw him.  That whole side of the Thursday family was a little off-center.  Did Fred tell us that another brother had been killed in the war?  I know he said that at the end, but there had been so many war references by then, I could not remember if he had mentioned it to someone earlier.  It would certainly make him more anxious for his son. 

[attica]

The usherette's name was Betty Perske. Which will be familiar to old-movie fans: it's Lauren Bacall's birth name.

[tljgator]

8 hours ago, skippy said:

I just watched this last night in U.S. and I recall this scene.  Am I going crazy?  Does anyone else in U.S. recall it?

I remember it, too! I thought I was the one who was going a little loopy when I read all the comments thinking it was cut, lol.

[Dessert]

I’m certain it wasn’t there. There were other mentions of Laurel and Hardy, old movie theaters, etc., but not that one.

on a shallow note, I think Shaun Evans is even more handsome than usual this season. Last season he was thin to the point of being gaunt, but he’s looking healthier now and very dashing.

[jjj]

1 hour ago, Dessert said:

I’m certain it wasn’t there. There were other mentions of Laurel and Hardy, old movie theaters, etc., but not that one.

For some reason, the episode is not posted to Comcast yet, but it is on the PBS site.  The scene at the theatre, when they are on the orange crush quest, goes from Thursday/Morse walking up to the theatre, then cut to Thursday introducing Morse to the counter salesperson.  So, the scene is not there, nor was on what I watched last night.  I feel less loopy now!  

1 hour ago, tljgator said:

I remember it, too! I thought I was the one who was going a little loopy when I read all the comments thinking it was cut, lol.

 

9 hours ago, skippy said:

It will be interesting to see if anyone else remembers it!

[fauntleroy]

I was absolutely baffled by the plot - the different martinis, two different (?) poisons, one in a straw wtf, one in olive wtf2, meant for this guy, but consumed by that guy, the restaurant owner and daughter, the stabbed extortion guy as if from a different episode, the friggin cartouche, two goddam autograph books.

Charlie Thursday a great shifty character, wish we learned about his business and his weirdly cheerful wife.

I watch the wardrobe and set design since I canna follow the plot. They do a good job with the old-timey eyeglasses and the men's haircuts. And the cars! Ooh that Jag. They made rather a show of Charlie's car, but I couldn't make out the make or model. Anybody have info about it?

Have this recorded on the DVR, but haven't looked for the cut or not scene yet.

[Magnumfangirl]

Quote

They made rather a show of Charlie's car, but I couldn't make out the make or model. Anybody have info about it?

Pretty sure it was a Dodge Coronet.  This looks pretty similar to it  

 

4 hours ago, jjj said:

Did Fred tell us that another brother had been killed in the war?

I think it's the first time Fred has mentioned a brother that was KIA.  He told Bright that Charlie was his middle brother, so I'm wondering how many Thursday boys there are.

 

4 hours ago, jjj said:

I was surprised they (Thursday and Morse) were not more concerned about Joan after having a brick heaved in her direction and her place of employment burned down.  And she was quite bland about the fact that the building had a major fire -- not concerned about anything that I remember.

So far the entire Joan plot is weird.  Is she working there as some sort of penance for her walk on the wild side?  Where's she been from October '67 to April '68?  And what the heck has happened to her fabulous wardrobe and makeup??  She looked so dowdy in the brown skirt and long vest.

[fauntleroy]

1 hour ago, Magnumfangirl said:

Pretty sure it was a Dodge Coronet.  This looks pretty similar to it 

Thanks, that's close! Found it::

https://goo.gl/images/kYScuA

A '62 Dart , not a new car, in '68. A two-door. Morse gives it a good look first tme he sees it. In general when unusual cars are shown, I wish they'd give some reason. Possibly not common in England, and possibly a muscle car, depending on the engine. The final scene of them leaving gives a hint of big-engine rumble.

Edited July 3, 2018 by fauntleroy

[jjj]

15 hours ago, fauntleroy said:

Thanks, that's close! Found it:: https://goo.gl/images/kYScuA   A '62 Dart , not a new car, in '68. A two-door. Morse gives it a good look first time he sees it. 

I've seen a lot of old Dodge Darts -- never such a spiffy one!  Good catch!  From the episode (they certainly gave it a loving shot!):

Edited July 3, 2018 by jjj

[fauntleroy]

D'oh it's a Polara 500, not a Dart! Revealed in the scene of their leaving (I love the slo-mo and pause functions).

And the horn plays Dixie! What the heck was Charlie doing with such an American beast?

For those interested:

Edited July 4, 2018 by fauntleroy

[2727]

13 hours ago, fauntleroy said:

And the horn plays Dixie! What the heck was Charlie doing with such an American beast?

For that matter, why did he have a strong Cockney accent when Fred doesn't.

[jjj]

That missing dialogue is important to the plot, because Thursday talks about letting in “Chaz and Billy” through the side door.  Those are/were his brothers (Chaz=the Charles we saw).  So this does tell us that he had two brothers, and at the very end of the episode, he says “the best of us never came back” (Billy).  So, we really were meant to hear that missing dialogue.

Did you realize that the “archeologist” in the film clips at the opening was Shaun Evans?! 
 

[fauntleroy]

Also since I apparently cannot let this go, it's left-hand drive. That is, US not UK model. If I was Fred would have suggested selling it to pay off some of that debt.

Bright's mention of the river Tiber "foaming with much blood" when talking to Thursday is a reference to a speech about immigration made that year by Enoch Powell:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech

Edited July 4, 2018 by fauntleroy
ETA

[jjj]

33 minutes ago, fauntleroy said:

Bright's mention of the river Tiber "foaming with much blood" when talking to Thursday is a reference to a speech about immigration made that year by Enoch Powell:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech

I mentioned this speech above -- the red letters with the hidden message in the end credits spell out "RIVERS OF BLOOD".  

[fauntleroy]

Yes thanks, missed it. So much to unpack with these episodes!

[SusanSunflower]

thank you JJJ  -- I didn't and that whole birth-order business is probably significant ..... hard to take over for a (now dead) beloved older sibling and try to play the benevolent "older sibling" to someone you never thought much about.  Fred seems rather intentionally blind to his younger brother's flashy car, wife,  daughter ... 

Fauntleroy:  That car seems to embody some sort of garish flamboyance .... like "patent leather shoes" that (unlike leather) could not be fixed if marred/spoiled (someone stepping on them)  -- like real suede which was amazingly extravagant because it was so easy to "ruin" in normal use -- rain, mud, spill 

Didn't recognize Evans as the archaeologist ... but he is "filling out" nicely these days... 

Charlie as "trouble in River City" may have been a bit heavy handed, iykwim 

 

jjj just posted -- it will be interesting how they deal with this "confusion" as to whether the attacks on Nash's properties  are financially motivated rather than racial animus related.  The suggestion orginally was Nash engaging in arson on his own properties, (for insurance and resale opportunities) but that shifted to some degree to "uncertain" with a possible hidden gang rivalry. 

[Dessert]

6 hours ago, 2727 said:

For that matter, why did he have a strong Cockney accent when Fred doesn't.

Accents are strange things. A few years ago I heard a voicemail from a childhood friend who I hadn’t spoken to since we were children in a small Texas town. He sounded like Walter Brennan. It was shocking. Friends I know who left have faint accents. The people you spend time with as an adult can influence your accent, as can personal flamboyance. Fred has been in Oxford for years. Charlie probably hangs out with a cultural subset of people who share similar slang and way of speaking. I thought the differences in the brothers’ accents to be fairly realistic.

[Magnumfangirl]

On 7/3/2018 at 9:37 PM, fauntleroy said:

And the horn plays Dixie! What the heck was Charlie doing with such an American beast?

Somebody who works on the show must be a fan of The Dukes of Hazzard and the General Lee.  LOL!

[M. Darcy]

On 7/4/2018 at 12:25 PM, 2727 said:

For that matter, why did he have a strong Cockney accent when Fred doesn't.

All those years spent on Eastenders! 

[Driad]

On 7/4/2018 at 12:25 PM, 2727 said:

For that matter, why did [Fred Thursday's brother] have a strong Cockney accent when Fred doesn't.

Can someone knowledgeable comment on Fred's accent?  Possibly Fred intentionally changed his accent. "Upper class" characters on British dramas often look down on police, so maybe Fred wanted to sound more educated than his original accent might imply?

[jjj]

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Can someone knowledgeable comment on Fred's accent?  Possibly Fred intentionally changed his accent. "Upper class" characters on British dramas often look down on police, so maybe Fred wanted to sound more educated than his original accent might imply?

I really think the accent was deliberately added or intensified to show that Fred's brother was of a different class than Fred has become. Britain is so class-conscious, and theatre uses accents to make the point of who belongs where.  We were meant to understand that Fred's brother was not his equal.  Yes, it's unsettling to see people pigeonholed.  And they gave him behaviour to match the accent, like immediately calling Bright "Reginald".  

[SusanSunflower]

yes, talk of accents reminds me of Lewis' "low class" Geordie accent**  (whcih I never recognized or understood -- except that Eric Burdon of the Animal has one too).  The Beatles were, irrc, markedly Liverpudlian and of course the more general monoied "posh' private school accents ...   I'd guess that Fred and his wife gradually lost their accents, perhaps even consciously to avoid their kids being saddled. So much was made also of Michael Caine's Cockney ... such as scandal, such a renegade .... mostly mysterious to me as an American, though things like "West Side Story" and even "South Pacific" testified to some of our peculiarities. 

Here at home, I  remember distinct New York accents in my childhood (in Los Angeles), and quite a number very marked, Jewish and with Yiddish for garnish (likely derived from German/Russian) voices among the elderly, particularly down along the Venice Boardwalk.  I think I've only heard the lower-class Boston accent in movies, think it may have evolved from Irish.  Most of the Iranian and other middle easterner folks I've met have tended to have French accents to some degree.  I recall my mom saying that the universal TV voice (Californian, pretty much accent-less, Los Angeles being broadcasting central ) had wiped out many American regional voices ... Texan and Southern and even the Scandinavian inflections of the Great Lake regions. 

Blame national broadcasting.    True in England too?  Where a generation or two of bland announcers subconsciously altered the nation 

** oddly the accent -- which broadly references folks from Northern England -- is not mentioned in Whatley's wiki. ... I was stunned by all the "it's so sexy" remarks!! 

And because I just remembered, Apparently Evans' parents are Irish although he was born and iirc raised in Liverpool. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[M. Darcy]

Quote

For that matter, why did [Fred Thursday's brother] have a strong Cockney accent when Fred doesn't

Also, its Roger Allam.  No one has the beautiful sounds of Roger's voice.  

[Eliza422]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, Dessert said:

Accents are strange things. A few years ago I heard a voicemail from a childhood friend who I hadn’t spoken to since we were children in a small Texas town. He sounded like Walter Brennan. It was shocking. Friends I know who left have faint accents. The people you spend time with as an adult can influence your accent, as can personal flamboyance. Fred has been in Oxford for years. Charlie probably hangs out with a cultural subset of people who share similar slang and way of speaking. I thought the differences in the brothers’ accents to be fairly realistic.

I have an example in my own family. We grew up on the East coast, eventually ending up in North Carolina. My sister and I have very neutral accents (I've lived in the Chicago area for many years now, I may be a bit more Midwestern now)...my brother picked up over the years from living in Mississippi and South Carolina a very heavy southern accent, all in his adult years. I'm not sure why it became so strong. My mom has lived in the Atlanta area for my years, my sister ended up in North Carolina again - yet they haven't picked up an appreciable accent.

When we are together as a family it's funny to hear differences between all of us.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Eliza422

[humbleopinion]

Anytime we get to know the characters more, the better.

We meet Charlie who spent Fred's and Win's nest egg on a car.

Morse having sexy time with Joan's cousin...maybe the closest he will get to making hay with Joan, the true object of his desire.

Carol reminds me of a young Angie Dickinson, but Angie is a better actor.

[deirdra]

I also was distracted by Carol's very plumped lips, which moved like squirming worms when she spoke.  I looked her up on Google Images and they are not natural; she had thin lips as a child actor.  Whoever does the casting of bleached blondes for the show seems to like plumped lips.

Edited July 22, 2018 by deirdra

[fauntleroy]

On 7/15/2018 at 9:20 AM, humbleopinion said:

We meet Charlie who spent Fred's and Win's nest egg on a car.

They showed up in it as I recall. Its oddness being an indication to us that Charlie has a weakness for harebrained schemes as somebody mentioned. Having a financially irresponsible relative all too common alas. I would not have minded learning more about the (American!) car and the source of his debt. 

[humbleopinion]

Charlie's car horn tune plays into one of main themes of this season.