S13.E13: Devil's Bargain

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That was kind of my main point. It doesn't matter if he can get out of it or not.  He wouldn't really have a reason to want to.

Sorry, I must have edited out "I agree" when rearranging. I wasn't disagreeing with you that Lucifer has no reason to want to vacate Sam, just that I don't think he actually can vacate Nick at this point, even if he did

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Getting run-onny-er :)... But Lucifer already knows he's not strong enough to fight AU Michael - wouldn't it make sense* for him to want to be his strongest when he knows AUM is trying to make his way to our world?

I think that was the point of Crowley saying he made Nick stronger; at this point, the vessel he's in is just as strong as his "one true vessel". IMO, the show has no interest in having either Dean or Sam possessed again and this was their attempt to say that they were going to continue to play with Lucifer, but it's not the same story they did before.

[catrox14]

Someone noticed this which means Jensen was just hanging out on set in a onesie. . LOLOLLL. That is just hilarious to me.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

I think that was the point of Crowley saying he made Nick stronger; at this point, the vessel he's in is just as strong as his "one true vessel". IMO, the show has no interest in having either Dean or Sam possessed again and this was their attempt to say that they were going to continue to play with Lucifer, but it's not the same story they did before.

I don't know that the Nick vessel is 'just as strong'. Crowley only says:

Quote

CROWLEY: ...repaired it, improved it, making it a fitting final home for the real you. What? No snarky, devilish comments? You have nothing to say?

IMO that just means he made it so the suit would last forever (not decay), not stronger (physically or metaphysically) than his true vessel. And then in 12x15 he tells him that he's trapped in that vessel via runes and spellwork. So presumably, with Crowley dead, those runes and spellwork could be reversed - but with Dabb's boner for Pellegrino, I don't see that happening on a permanent basis. Maybe long enough to fight Michael though.

Quote

This vessel… That's your true prison. It's been warded with runes and spellwork from the Cage, carved into every molecule. In there? I own you.

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO that just means he made it so the suit would last forever (not decay), not stronger (physically or metaphysically) than his true vessel.

Which is exactly what made Sam a stronger vessel; he could contain Lucifer without degrading. So, IMO, Nick is just as strong--if not stronger since he doesn't have to drink the demon blood--than Sam as a vessel at this point and has the added advantage of no pain in the ass Sam to pester him.

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And then in 12x15 he tells him that he's trapped in that vessel via runes and spellwork. So presumably, with Crowley dead, those runes and spellwork could be reversed

Those runes and spellwork were based off the spellwork and runes on the cage and I don't think anyone can reverse them except maybe Rowena--Or Chuck. I don't think that's likely though given Rowena's fear and loathing of Lucifer right now. I think the only way that happens is if she thinks she can kill him.

Edited February 13, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

re that picture of Lucifer and Anael

My feathers are a bit ruffled by them wearing Castiel's wardrobe color palette. This show makes purposeful choices and tells part of the story in subtext through color pallettes and wardrobe.

So what is th subtext here? Is Lucifer being influenced by Castiel and its redeeming him? Lucifer does not deserve any redemption not even if my beloved Castiel is the model for it.

Is it  implying that Anael  is not really anymore independent  than the other follower angels? More that maybe she just  hitched her wagon to the Devil so she's dressing like him? Unless she's dressing like him to stroke his ego which is possible, so she gets what she wants? That just makes her boring femme fatale. It's also annoying if this is signaling that a character with no history with Lucifer or anyone else is given that kind of arc that makes her take down Lucifer by being a better manipulator than him. We'll see

Of course they did have Amara, the feminine.aspect of "God" ,essentially end up being the reason he went Darkseid despite  them trying g to walk it back in 11.21 by saying the Mark just made him more of what he was. So which is it? Amara is the root of his evil or was it Chuck for locking her away or Lucifer was just  born that way or became that cause he wouldn't love humanity?

Regardless my  feathers are ruffled at the Castiel color pallette being worn by Lucifer and his.minion.

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Someone noticed this which means Jensen was just hanging out on set in a onesie. . LOLOLLL. That is just hilarious to me.

 

Wasn't this posted around Christmas time? Wonder if it was a Holiday Party or something like that?

[gonzosgirrl]

41 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Which is exactly what made Sam a stronger vessel; he could contain Lucifer without degrading. So, IMO, Nick is just as strong--if not stronger since he doesn't have to drink the demon blood--than Sam as a vessel at this point and has the added advantage of no pain in the ass Sam to pester him.

Those runes and spellwork were based off the spellwork and runes on the cage and I don't think anyone can reverse them except maybe Rowena--Or Chuck. I don't think that's likely though given Rowena's fear and loathing of Lucifer right now. I think the only way that happens is if she thinks she can kill him.

 

So all those millenia of Angels, Fate, Cupid, etc., conspiring to bring John and Mary together to produce Dean and Sam could've been accomplished with a little spellwork and some runes? Jeez, Chuck really is a dick. #sarcasm

I don't believe Sam (and Dean's) only attributes as ideal vessels were simply that they could contain them without degrading - otherwise, the whole premise of the show is negated. I realize Dabb doesn't GAF about canon or Sam and Dean, but that's too much, even for him.

Edited February 13, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
typo

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So all those millenia of Angels, Fate, Cupid, etc., conspiring to bring John and Mary together to produce Dean and Sam could've been accomplished with a little spellwork and some runes?

Apparently. Or that's my take one it. The reason Sam and Dean were desirable vessels was because they were bred from two different archangel vessel lines, which made their vessels strong enough to contain an archangel. There was nothing else about them the angels wanted as far as I know.

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't believe Sam (and Dean's) only attributes as ideal vessels were simple that they could contain them without degrading - otherwise, the whole premise of the show is negated.

In what way? The premise of the show is about free will and being able to choose your fate instead of it being chosen for you. Just because they were chosen solely for their bodies makes no difference to the premise, IMO.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wasn't this posted around Christmas time? Wonder if it was a Holiday Party or something like that?

Don't know. Doesn't matter to me. Jensen was still wearing a onesie on set be and it highly amuses me either way.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO that just means he made it so the suit would last forever (not decay), not stronger (physically or metaphysically) than his true vessel. And then in 12x15 he tells him that he's trapped in that vessel via runes and spellwork. So presumably, with Crowley dead, those runes and spellwork could be reversed - but with Dabb's boner for Pellegrino, I don't see that happening on a permanent basis. Maybe long enough to fight Michael though.

Assuming Dabb doesn't retcon Crowley into being a complete imbecile, which he might given the acrimony of the parting of the ways, given that Crowley used the God specs and maybe a side of extra something, it should be a recipe that died with Crowley.  If he was smart, he would have had each minion working on it have only one piece of it and then killed any who worked on it. 

I mean as much as I dislike Lucifer and Pellegrino, I don't want Crowley to be reduced as a smart character just so he could escape the meatsuit. Sadly, part of that door is open with the 'reversing the polarity' shit to begin with, and that AU Michael was able to siphon his grace at all.

It would be really interesting to me, if Crowley did have Gabriel captured and either tortured Gabriel into helping him create Lucifer's meatsuit warding. He would have been alive when they made that cage in the first place. So maybe he got some of Gabriel's input, And since apparently it takes an archangel blade wielded by an archangel to kill him, Crowley could have sewed his mouth shut to keep him from talking about it. 

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

In what way? The premise of the show is about free will and being able to choose your fate instead of it being chosen for you. Just because they were chosen solely for their bodies makes no difference to the premise, IMO.

In what way? In the way that they spent 5 seasons building up to the fact that Dean and Sam were literally created to be Michael and Lucifer's true vessels. Not just bodies that could contain them.

Edited February 13, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In what way? In the way that they spent 5 seasons building up to the fact that Dean and Sam were literally created to be Michael and Lucifer's true vessels.

Right, and they are their true vessels still. Doesn't mean someone else can't create another "true" vessel, though. Which, IMO, is what Crowley did with Nick.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right, and they are their true vessels still. Doesn't mean someone else can't create another "true" vessel, though. Which, IMO, is what Crowley did with Nick.

I think there are different "definitions" for lack of a better word right  of it means to be a supernatural "True" Vessel. Adam was not a "true" vessel. He was a different vessel. Sam and Dean were the only "true" vessels.

What Crowley did is a completely different thing. He imprisoned Lucifer into his vessel so he could control him. It wasn't so he could give him a vessel to accomplish a goal, so it's not a "true" vessel. It's a substitute prison.

ETA:  IMO they are actually moving closer to Sam being used by Lucifer again as his vessel because they have made Lucifer partly human as well as using other angels grace whilst waiting for his own to rebuild. Heck he'll probably engineer new angels and take their grace for himself. If he does that then that might be what get allows him out of his own Nicksuit because if it's Lucifer's "DNA" for lack of a better word that is what kept him in his Cage then he could be altering himself just enough with other angels grace to get out of the Nicksuit. 

Kind of like how when Demon Dean became more human he could get out of the Devil's Trap.

Edited February 13, 2018 by catrox14
I didn't mean "we". Wasn't trying to speak for anyone else but myself.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In what way? In the way that they spent 5 seasons building up to the fact that Dean and Sam were literally created to be Michael and Lucifer's true vessels. Not just bodies that could contain them.

 

Sorry something got sniped from my previous post--IMO, the show was never building to Sam and Dean being vessels for Micheal and Lucifer until S5. The show spent five years building to an apocalypse in which Sam and Dean would avert in some way, which is what they did. Angels weren't even considered to be a part of the mythology until S4 and the vessel thing grew out of the angels being brought into the mythology. If they had not sent Dean to Hell, I highly doubt we would've ended up with a Micheal at all.

Edited February 13, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Sorry something got sniped from my previous post--IMO, the show was never building to Sam and Dean being vessels for Micheal and Lucifer until S5. The show spent five years building to an apocalypse in which Sam and Dean would avert in some way, which is what they did. Angels weren't even considered to be a part of the mythology until S4 and the vessel thing grew out of the angels being brought into the mythology. If they had not sent Dean to Hell, I highly doubt we would've ended up with a Micheal at all.

 

The concept of angels was presented in s1 in Houses of the Holy. Sure it turned out that wasn't an angel but the idea was present. Kripke claims 5 year plan or even if it was just a 2 year writer's strike induced scheme, in show it was traced all the way back to John and Mary getting together, and making all the choices necessary for them have two boys who would be the True Vessels for Michael and Lucifer.

So to me, Crowley making a mobile prison in Nickifer, doesn't make him a "true" vessel. And I don't think that really is Dabb's intention here. If anything I think he's setting up Lucifer to need Sam again or at least a Campbell meaning Mary.  Of course, Jack could be Lucifer's vessel.

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The concept of angels was presented in s1 in Houses of the Holy. Sure it turned out that wasn't an angel but the idea was present. Kripke claims 5 year plan or even if it was just a 2 year writer's strike induced scheme, in show it was traced all the way back to John and Mary getting together, and making all the choices necessary for them have two boys who would be the True Vessels for Michael and Lucifer.

Actually, Houses of the Holy was S2 and, as I understand it, they were very hesitant to do it. Kripke has said many times that he never intended angels to be part of Supernatural and he would tell the writers no angel stories until they needed something to get Dean out of Hell.

As I recall, Kripke told the network he thought he could get five years of story out of the show, but the actual plan changed many, many times. I think the idea was always that Mary had been a hunter and started it all, but I don't think they had thought of vessels until after they introduced the angels in S4. And, I expect that Sam was originally supposed to be possessed by the Devil, but they hadn't actually worked out the Dean side of it until they opened up the mythology with the angels in S4. Then they started working backwards to make all the tumblers fit, IMO.

But I have no doubt that if you'd asked Kripke in S1 if his endgame was Sam and Dean being vessels for Heaven and Hell, his answer would be "NO!!".

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So to me, Crowley making a mobile prison in Nickifer, doesn't make him a "true" vessel.

I don't think he is a true vessel, but he is as good as Lucifer's original true vessel was, if not better, at this point.

Edited February 13, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think he is a true vessel, but he is as good as Lucifer's original true vessel was, if not better, at this point.

51 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

Actually, Houses of the Holy was S2 and, as I understand it, they were very hesitant to do it. Kripke has said many times that he never

Oh my bad. I got the season wrong. It doesn't materially alter my point that angels were a concept  in the show before s4. Didnt you just say that he was a true vessel?

Edited February 13, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

ight, and they are their true vessels still. Doesn't mean someone else can't create another "true" vessel, though. Which, IMO, is what Crowley did with Nick.

I guess I'm just confused as to what you mean here TBH.

[Castiels Cat]

I don't know how to reply individually to people lol.

I think the mid level angel reworked Crowley's ruins which were to keep him weakened and trapped in the Nick meatsuit.  He is no longer weakened so he probably is no longer trapped.

I also believe the meatsuit was engineered to withstand Lucifer who typically runs through meatsuits quickly.  Personally I would have preferred Rick Springfield.  

Per season 9 we know that some meatsuits are more powerful than others.  Presumably archangel meatsuits are the most powerful. Gadreel could not heal himself in his Tahmoh meatsuit.  He could heal himself quickly in Sam.  

Lucifer will need Sam once AU Michael gets here.  Sucking his army dry won't cut it.

I actually chose the name Castiel's Cat before the Edlund episode aired.  I decided Castiel needed a cat based on Data and Spot.  That was another SQUEE moment though... lol.

I am a Dean girl, a glass half full Dean girl. I am known for my Dean goggles.  So when I started talking Dean!Michael last season before the Michael name dropping and before the rift showed us the It's a Wonderful Life Apocalypse people rightfully rolled eyes.   I knew we were heading to an Apocalypse with Winchesters but different.  To my mind the only reason go do tbis was to finally give us Dean! Michael.  There is no other reason to rehash old territory.  So I SQUEEd in the Ramiel episode despite it being a bad Tarantino wannabe and I SQUEEd in the finale despite my reservations regarding a powerful child.

Since Billie's tete a tete with Dean I am doubling down.  We are getting Dean!Michael. They actually built an episode that referenced Dean's special blood and his role as the righteous man.  Billie was obliquely stating the obvious.  There's a rift thst opens onto an Apocalypse world  and Dean can't die because he has work to do!!!!   Why put those two things in the sane dialogue unless Dean has to be alive to stop AU Michael...  Not because he has always thought he was responsible for the fate of the world or because God made him responsible for the fate of the world.  Both true but responsibility is one thing and being able to do it is something else.  This has to be a reference go Dean's role as Michael's sword, ie. Michael's s true vessel and the form in which Micharl, the most powerful archangel, is most powerful.  The fact that Micharl is bonkers is just icing on the cake.

Lucifer knows he cannot defeat AU Michael at full power in Nick.  And Lucifer knows Michael is older and stronger because Michael put Lucifer in the cage in the first place.  He will want his OTV and he will want his big brother too.  And now we know Sam saying yes will be the most heroic thing he has ever done and the most selfless.

It is a bit weird that the brothers ate spectators tbis season. I chalk that up to Singer and Dabb the dudes that gave us Bloodlines.  Or maybe it's intentional so we are surprised by the reveal.   It is hard to say.  I an pretty sure they are working from an outline left by Carver which detailed the big pitstops on the road to the Apocalyose and  the Winchestsr Family Psych show, both of which they muddled through pretty well; with all other attempts at story arcs falling flat or failing because of LOL plotting and LOL world building.

Amara was not evil. She was a powerful goddess who was locked up for expressing herself and a cover story steeped in misogyny was conceived by her male oppressors.  She enjoyed cat videos for goodness sake.  The Mark didn't make people evil.  Dean never became evil.  He just enjoyed the hunting and killing a lot more.  It was diety level steroids. Lucifer appears to be a spoiled egotist and jealous teenager who acts out without any real longtime plan.  He hasn't been scary simce his introduction except for the Rick Springfield episodes.  

If Gabriel isn't AU then he was awoken in the empty and Oily Goo God sewed his mouth shut because he is annoying.  AU Gabriel seems more likely to me because he looked to be tortured cor a long time.

Crowley should not have cared about Gabriel enough to lock him up, should not have the power to lock him up and most certainly would have offered him up to fight Amara if he had him.

If Gabriel faked his death in season 5 he would be in hiding and would have been the most powerful piece on the board.  No one would be able to capture and torture him.

The addition of Gabriel perplexes me because he was previously comic relief, passive aggressive antics, a critical source of important arcane knowledge via a porn video and was easily defeated by Lucifer.  He at first tried to show Sam that his revenge quest after Dean's death was a bad road and when that failed he tried to force the Winchesters into accepting their Apocalyptic roles.  Pretty major flip flop.  I don't know what he will add besides fan service, especially in a season with too many balls in the air. Probably more important arcane knowledge and insight into AU Michael.   I guess i am wary because I am catching a whiff of retcon and lol canon.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Wayward Son]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh my bad. I got the season wrong. It doesn't materially alter my point that angels were a concept  in the show before s4. Didnt you just say that he was a true vessel?

Going to reply in all Episodes thread :)

[Castiels Cat]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

re that picture of Lucifer and Anael

My feathers are a bit ruffled by them wearing Castiel's wardrobe color palette. This show makes purposeful choices and tells part of the story in subtext through color pallettes and wardrobe.

So what is th subtext here? Is Lucifer being influenced by Castiel and its redeeming him? Lucifer does not deserve any redemption not even if my beloved Castiel is the model for it.

Is it  implying that Anael  is not really anymore independent  than the other follower angels? More that maybe she just  hitched her wagon to the Devil so she's dressing like him? Unless she's dressing like him to stroke his ego which is possible, so she gets what she wants? That just makes her boring femme fatale. It's also annoying if this is signaling that a character with no history with Lucifer or anyone else is given that kind of arc that makes her take down Lucifer by being a better manipulator than him. We'll see

Of course they did have Amara, the feminine.aspect of "God" ,essentially end up being the reason he went Darkseid despite  them trying g to walk it back in 11.21 by saying the Mark just made him more of what he was. So which is it? Amara is the root of his evil or was it Chuck for locking her away or Lucifer was just  born that way or became that cause he wouldn't love humanity?

Regardless my  feathers are ruffled at the Castiel color pallette being worn by Lucifer and his.minion.

My guess is the change to white shirts but not suits indicates that they are only paying lip service to helping other angels and heaven.  Both are in it for themselves as we have seen demonstrated by past actions.  Lucifer has always worn a light colored jacket.  Anael's is leather.  She may be consciously mirroring Lucifer too.  I don't think it has anything to do with Cas.

I don't think Lucifer can influence or schmooze Cas post possession because Cas now knows him intimately.  This intimate knowledge is why Cas took Lucifer's AU Apocalypse Intel seriously.  He knows when Lucifer is telling the truth.

Cas' seemingly off behavior around Lucifer is probably a reflection of that intimacy.  The animosity he feels is personal because he was violated by Lucifer in a way few angels are.  And he now knows exactly how to tweak Luci's buttons.  It must be exhilarating to be able to do that so effectively.  He also seemed to know exactly when Lucifer was going to strike to steal his grace and kill him.  Cas is the safest angel out there.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

The concept of angels was presented in s1 in Houses of the Holy. Sure it turned out that wasn't an angel but the idea was present. Kripke claims 5 year plan or even if it was just a 2 year writer's strike induced scheme, in show it was traced all the way back to John and Mary getting together, and making all the choices necessary for them have two boys who would be the True Vessels for Michael and Lucifer.

So to me, Crowley making a mobile prison in Nickifer, doesn't make him a "true" vessel. And I don't think that really is Dabb's intention here. If anything I think he's setting up Lucifer to need Sam again or at least a Campbell meaning Mary.  Of course, Jack could be Lucifer's vessel.

I thought Sam was sitting this Apocalypse out until he had that very special sharing moment with Rowena.  Why now? Because Sam's fear is going to mean something now.  Add to this the recent show canon that indicates there are appreciable differences between humans that can serve as vessels per season 8 in which using Sam as a vessel enabled him to heal both himself and Sam.  Add to this the season 5 canon that arcangels are only at their full strength when in their OTV... Lucifer needs Sam to heal and to be at his strongest.

Same goes from Michael.  Sure he could use other Winchesters but only Dean was described as his sword, his weapon.

They hinted at Mary!Lucifer hard and fast last season in text (She's the devil in the Magda story; the name Magda being related to Mary), plot (at least two episodes where Mary is possessed and having the letters to spell Lucifer in the Words game she and Dean were paying), And trope (she took over nearly every Sam trope from the first APOCALYPSE save being sensitive). I was sure this would happen but it looks like they scrapped it in favor of brothers x 2 fighting together.

I think she could end up being AU Michael's vessel.  He may secretly use her to sneak over here with Jack who has shown zero ability to see true faces as far as I can tell.  We don't know what the vessel rules are in the AU although the fact that John was Mary's great love suggests they may have been similar. 

It is curious that AU Michael is using an African American vessel because that is associated with Raphael over here.  AU Michael appears to be fascist, militaristic and cruel.  He may have killed Raphael for his vessel since there was no Dean or Adam or John.  

[sarthaz]

[gonzosgirrl]

It amuses me when people take the time to make up an insulting (or sarcastic or too-cool-for-school, etc.) meme and can't take the time to spell correctly. It makes disregarding them so much easier. Not talking about this one in particular, it just reminded me of my pet peeve.

Edited February 28, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I don't get it. They look nothing alike? I am confused by this.

[sarthaz]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't get it. They look nothing alike? I am confused by this.

Voice, inflection, mannerisms, etc. They're strikingly similar to me, but I've interacted with Julie a lot in social settings, so I may be keying on her personality more than her characters.  Either way, when Danneel showed up, I couldn't separate her from Julie in my head.

[bethy]

Wrong thread! Thanks, @catrox14!

Edited March 2, 2018 by bethy

[ParadoxLost]

Just got around to watchin this one.

It was one of those episodes where you get an epiphany and you then wonder why it took so long for everything to achieve such clarity.

Lucifer is a doofus.  Its an acting problem that is really not helped by the writing at all.  Cas is more menacing.

Maybe not the greatest idea to try to walk the line between "ooh, Lucifer is scary" and "why is that moron making that face".

Is Donatello's demand for fried chicken an unspoken warning that he is working for Colonel Sanders, King of Hell that Sam and Dean just haven't figured out yet?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

Is Donatello's demand for fried chicken an unspoken warning that he is working for Colonel Sanders, King of Hell that Sam and Dean just haven't figured out yet?

Love this!  It never occurred to me! :) 

[takalotti]

THEN:

 

So after five episodes where there was no reminder in the THEN sequences that Asmodeus was faking Cas' voice on the phone with the boys (first four of those didn’t even mention Cas being held prisoner), NOW they choose to include the reminder? NOW, in the episode where characters actually exposit that Cas was a prisoner and Asmodeus was pretending to be Cas such that we don’t need the reminder, NOW is when we get it. Not in the other episodes where a casual viewer might be confused about the references of the boys talking to Cas and no one exposits anything. Nope, this is the episode where it’s needed. I’m just glad this is over so I don’t have to see how stupidly it was handled anymore.

 

NOW:

 

Was Lucifer's "Okay. Okay Cupid" supposed to be a joke?

 

Quote

 

DEAN: Let me get this straight- you were kidnapped, weeks ago, locked up. Cas, I just talked to you on the phone.

CAS: No. No. Asmodeus had my phone. You’ve been talking to him.

 

This is where someone should say "Timeout. Guys, we’ve been burned too many times by this kind of stuff. Time to make some password phrases to slip into conversations so we know if we’re dealing with an imposter, the real deal, or the real deal being forced to act like nothing is wrong."

 

Quote

 

DEAN: Kevin Tran

CAS: Apocalypse world version, yes. He managed to open a rift using Lucifer’s grace.

SAM: They have an angel tablet?

CAS: Yes. And the archangel, Michael, again the apocalypse world version, wants to use the spell to invade and conquer our world. That’s why I met with Lucifer.

DEAN: So..You met …Cas, I specifically told you not to do anything stupid.

CAS: Well, he was weak and given the context of our imminent annihilation it didn’t seem stupid. Lucifer wanted to help fight Michael.

 

No. I’m not okay with this.

1. "I met with Lucifer" implies a planned meet up, not what really happened (Lucifer suddenly showing up and saying 'We need to talk'). 
2. "That’s why I met with Lucifer" and "Given the context [...] [meeting with Lucifer] didn’t seem stupid" imply that the knowledge of AW!Michael's plans was part of what influenced Cas to talk to Lucifer. But Cas didn’t know any of that when he decided to hear Lucifer out. All Lucifer said to change Cas' mind was "We're sorta ... all gonna die."
3. Cas never adds the disclaimer that this is all according to Lucifer. Normally I wouldn’t mind so much because how else could he have found this out, so obviously it came from Lucifer. But considering how his previous statements implied he knew this info before meeting with Lucifer, it accidentally suggests he had a different source. Everyone should be treating this information with suspicion, even though we know it’s true. Asmodeus is even took it with a grain of salt in 13.07 WotW.
4. Cas' explanation should have gone something more like this... "Yes. And the archangel, Michael, again the apocalypse world version, wants to use the spell to invade and conquer our world. That’s why Lucifer found me; so he could warn me." "Wait, you actually heard him out? Cas, I specifically told you not to do anything stupid." "Well, he was weak and said we were all gonna die, so it didn’t seem stupid to find out why."
5. In response to the 'anything stupid' line, I would have also been fine with Cas retorting, "You mean like losing Jack to an alternate universe? That kind of 'anything stupid'?" 

 

Lucifer's stomach growled and he said "I'm hungry?" but my closed captioning said "I hungry?" which made that moment hilarious to me. "I can has cheezburger?"

 

Lucifer begging for money was all kinds of perfect for me. I never thought entitled/belligerent begging could even exist, but of course that’s the only way Lucifer would do it. Why the guy bothered to help him, I don’t know. 

 

Quote

 

DEAN: Cas, I’m sorry. All that time you were with Asmodeus, we should have known it wasn’t you.

CAS: No, he’s a shapeshifter, besides I was the one who got myself captured.

DEAN: Yeah, but if Sam and I knew, you know, we would have...

CAS: Yeah, I know. I know. You would have tried another long shot. I’m fine, Dean.

DEAN: You sure about that?

 

I remember during the episodes where the boys would have been talking to Casmodeus, there was a little debate about how this even made sense as a possibility. (Short summary: In the past, Dean has picked up on when something is "off" with Cas, even when it IS Cas, so some of us were skeptical how Dean wasn’t pinging anything weird when it ISN'T Cas. It seemed like most of the on screen references to talking to Casmodeus implied Sam was talking to him. Yes, we could buy that Sam wouldn’t have pinged anything, but then the question became why doesn’t seem weird to anyone on TFW that Casmodeus is only/mainly talking to Sam?) After all that overanalyzing, this seemed like a very anticlimactic wrap-up.

Also, I’m not really sure what Dean was getting at with his "You sure about that?" Is he trying to delicately ask if Cas was traumatized from his imprisonment? Is he trying to find out if Cas is upset no one could tell it wasn’t him?

 

Wait, they can get in touch with Donatello that easily? Then why didn’t they contact him after Jack flew off at the end of Tombstone? I swear I don’t actually put THAT much thought into the show, but that only makes it worse when apparently my "not that much thought" is 50 times more than how much TPTB put into it.

 

Quote

 

Dean: We're boned.

Cas: Epically.

 

Well, SOMEone's been reading fanfic ?

 

I know angels can recognize other angels regardless of the vessel, but even on video? I wasn’t expecting that.
 

Quote

 

Donatello: I just hope I’m in time.

Casmodeus: You mean before Michael comes.

Donatello: Before anything happens to Jack or the boys' mom.

Casmodeus: (squinty 'What is he talking about?' face)

Donatello: I couldn’t live with myself if they never make it out of that terrible place.

Casmodeus: ('Oh, I see now.')

 

HANG ON A SECOND! Asmodeus didn’t know that Jack was in another universe until this moment? What the actual fuck have the boys and Casmodeus been talking about during their phone calls? How best to keep the shine on their angel blades?

 

To me, all of this reeks of TPTB just saying "Look, for 5 weeks we're just gonna ignore this whole Cas is locked up thing. We'll use Casmodeus as an excuse but really that’s just a stall tactic; it’s not gonna actually mean anything to the plot or anything. But when Cas comes back we're gonna have to acknowledge it, but just half ass it since it didn’t matter in the first place."

 

Does anyone in heaven know about AW!Michael and his plan to come over here? Lucifer didn’t mention it to them or even Sister Jo on screen. All he talked about was the Angels’ numbers being depleted and how he could make more. Does he not want them to know because they might choose to follow AW!Michael instead?

 

So Sister Jo left town with Lucifer right after he showed up, and then ascended to throne-adjacent in Heaven. So this means the guy won’t get his legs fixed ☹️ Sure, lots of people won’t be healed by her now, but he helped Lucifer find her and this is his payback? Not that this sentiment is new by any means, but fuck you, Lucifer.

 

I’m not even going to talk about the last 2 seconds of the episode. I find it insulting to be given a half-assed episode that gets capped off with a "huge mind-blowing reveal" that has to be designed to distract us from how half-assed the episode was. So I’m not gonna play ball. I’m not distracted, show!

Edited March 29, 2018 by takalotti

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, takalotti said:

THEN:

 

So after five episodes where there was no reminder in the THEN sequences that Asmodeus was faking Cas' voice on the phone with the boys (first four of those didn’t even mention Cas being held prisoner), NOW they choose to include the reminder? NOW, in the episode where characters actually exposit that Cas was a prisoner and Asmodeus was pretending to be Cas such that we don’t need the reminder, NOW is when we get it. Not in the other episodes where a casual viewer might be confused about the references of the boys talking to Cas and no one exposits anything. Nope, this is the episode where it’s needed. I’m just glad this is over so I don’t have to see how stupidly it was handled anymore.

 

NOW:

 

Was Lucifer's "Okay. Okay Cupid" supposed to be a joke?

 

This is where someone should say "Timeout. Guys, we’ve been burned too many times by this kind of stuff. Time to make some password phrases to slip into conversations so we know if we’re dealing with an imposter, the real deal, or the real deal being forced to act like nothing is wrong."

 

No. I’m not okay with this.

1. "I met with Lucifer" implies a planned meet up, not what really happened (Lucifer suddenly showing up and saying 'We need to talk'). 
2. "That’s why I met with Lucifer" and "Given the context [...] [meeting with Lucifer] didn’t seem stupid" imply that the knowledge of AW!Michael's plans was part of what influenced Cas to talk to Lucifer. But Cas didn’t know any of that when he decided to hear Lucifer out. All Lucifer said to change Cas' mind was "We're sorta ... all gonna die."
3. Cas never adds the disclaimer that this is all according to Lucifer. Normally I wouldn’t mind so much because how else could he have found this out, so obviously it came from Lucifer. But considering how his previous statements implied he knew this info before meeting with Lucifer, it accidentally suggests he had a different source. Everyone should be treating this information with suspicion, even though we know it’s true. Asmodeus is even took it with a grain of salt in 13.07 WotW.
4. Cas' explanation should have gone something more like this... "Yes. And the archangel, Michael, again the apocalypse world version, wants to use the spell to invade and conquer our world. That’s why Lucifer found me; so he could warn me." "Wait, you actually heard him out? Cas, I specifically told you not to do anything stupid." "Well, he was weak and said we were all gonna die, so it didn’t seem stupid to find out why."
5. In response to the 'anything stupid' line, I would have also been fine with Cas retorting, "You mean like losing Jack to an alternate universe? That kind of 'anything stupid'?" 

 

Lucifer's stomach growled and he said "I'm hungry?" but my closed captioning said "I hungry?" which made that moment hilarious to me. "I can has cheezburger?"

 

Lucifer begging for money was all kinds of perfect for me. I never thought entitled/belligerent begging could even exist, but of course that’s the only way Lucifer would do it. Why the guy bothered to help him, I don’t know. 

 

I remember during the episodes where the boys would have been talking to Casmodeus, there was a little debate about how this even made sense as a possibility. (Short summary: In the past, Dean has picked up on when something is "off" with Cas, even when it IS Cas, so some of us were skeptical how Dean wasn’t pinging anything weird when it ISN'T Cas. It seemed like most of the on screen references to talking to Casmodeus implied Sam was talking to him. Yes, we could buy that Sam wouldn’t have pinged anything, but then the question became why doesn’t seem weird to anyone on TFW that Casmodeus is only/mainly talking to Sam?) After all that overanalyzing, this seemed like a very anticlimactic wrap-up.

Also, I’m not really sure what Dean was getting at with his "You sure about that?" Seems along the same lines as what he was asking Cas right before they left the bunker. Is he trying to delicately ask if Cas was traumatized from his imprisonment? Is he trying to find out if Cas is upset no one could tell it wasn’t him?

 

Wait, they can get in touch with Donatello that easily? Then why didn’t they contact him after Jack flew off at the end of Tombstone? I swear I don’t actually put THAT much thought into the show, but that only makes it worse when apparently my "not that much thought" is 50 times more than how much TPTB put into it.

 

Well, SOMEone's been reading fanfic ?

 

I know angels can recognize other angels regardless of the vessel, but even on video? I wasn’t expecting that.
 

HANG ON A SECOND! Asmodeus didn’t know that Jack was in another universe until this moment? What the actual fuck have the boys and Casmodeus been talking about during their phone calls? How best to keep the shine on their angel blades?

 

To me, all of this reeks of TPTB just saying "Look, for 5 weeks we're just gonna ignore this whole Cas is locked up thing. We'll use Casmodeus as an excuse but really that’s just a stall tactic; it’s not gonna actually mean anything to the plot or anything. But when Cas comes back we're gonna have to acknowledge it, but just half ass it since it didn’t matter in the first place."

 

Does anyone in heaven know about AW!Michael and his plan to come over here? Lucifer didn’t mention it to them or even Sister Jo on screen. All he talked about was the Angels’ numbers being depleted and how he could make more. Does he not want them to know because they might choose to follow AW!Michael instead?

 

So Sister Jo left town with Lucifer right after he showed up, and then ascended to throne-adjacent in Heaven. So this means the guy won’t get his legs fixed ☹️ Sure, lots of people won’t be healed by her now, but he helped Lucifer find her and this is his payback? Not that this sentiment is new by any means, but fuck you, Lucifer.

 

I’m not even going to talk about the last 2 seconds of the episode. I find it insulting to be given a half-assed episode that gets capped off with a "huge mind-blowing reveal" that has to be designed to distract us from how half-assed the episode was. So I’m not gonna play ball. I’m not distracted, show!

This is a great post and an excellent breakdown of the stupidity in this episode. Well done.

[takalotti]

On 3/28/2018 at 6:13 PM, catrox14 said:

This is a great post and an excellent breakdown of the stupidity in this episode. Well done.

Thanks! ?

 

Two other things...

Lucifer told Cas about his escape from AW, but how much did he tell? He clearly explained that Kevin Tran found a spell on the Angel Tablet and one of the ingredients was archangel grace since we heard Cas tell that to the guys, or they mentioned needing archangel grace before Donatello saw the Demon Tablet. But did Lucifer tell Cas how the rift closed as soon as he went through? And if he didn’t, did Cas really not ask any follow ups about who else might have come through?

I ask because Dean says, "So, we grab Satan, we use his grace to open a door between the two universes okay? Then we get Mom and we get Jack and then we get out. Slam the door before Michael follows us and destroys our universe. Now it’s gonna be harder than it sounds." Nowhere in any of these discussions does anyone point out that only one of them can get through, offer any ideas like "maybe if we hold hands," discuss how they have to redo the spell in AW in order to get back or rely on Jack opening the new one without a dreamwalker, or mention that they don’t really have to do anything to "slam the door" since it'll do that automatically if it’s the tablet kind of door. I’m not saying this is an error, that they SHOULD be saying these things. Just that I’m only realizing now that TFW doesn’t have all the information and this is gonna screw up their plans. 

Of course, in all reality something else will happen and TFW will never need to open a TabletDoor (like Jack figures it out on his own and jumps back with Mary) and this is all moot.

 

Near the end, when Sam says, "Right. Okay. At least we know the spell we need is in there and we have a plan," what was up with his weird pointed look at Cas?

Edited April 5, 2018 by takalotti

[rue721]

On 2/9/2018 at 7:42 AM, companionenvy said:

I liked Sister Jo, in that she was slightly more intriguing than most baddies. The idea of someone who was a paper-pusher in heaven feeling liberated by the fall is a good one. Unfortunately, she exists in another iteration of the Heaven's Politics storyline, which has consistently been one of the weakest on the show.

[...]

Imagine if Mary and now Jack were teamed up with an alt!Cas closer to the heavenly warrior version we first met

Oh man, that alt!Cas idea is such a good one! I wish they had done that, especially since they seem very much at loose ends with Cas in the main timeline anyway, so it's not like it would have overloaded Misha or something.

I also totally agree about Sister Jo. I actually found her pretty intriguing as a character (except for the fact that she's an angel and angels by definition suck). She seems like a real standout when it comes to making ambitious plans and then carrying them out, which means a lot on this show, given how often everyone's plans go awry.

I didn't know that Sister Jo was played by Daneel until I came here and read the forum after watching the episode. I think she did a fine job. But the standout guest star had to be the beggar guy. I really liked him a lot.

On 2/9/2018 at 11:18 AM, Katy M said:

Actually, if the actor is available, Adam could just be his vessel.  But, then, of course, Sam and DEan would be concerned about getting angel out of vessel, when they aren't usually. And, we'd have to deal with the fact that Michael is supposed to be quivering mass of Jell-O.  But, yeah, I think I would have preferred that, too.  Heck, I would almost have preferred a never heard of before archangel.  Named Pete.

I really wish they had brought in Jell-O!Michael instead of Jell-O!Gabriel if they were going to bring in Jell-O!Anybody. We've been hearing how Michael is a total mess for years now, and I have to admit, I'm curious to see what that even means. I mean, even God was like, "I dunno, he's fucked" and just left him for dead in the Cage. WHAT. You've got to be pretty messed up when even God is feeling daunted. Also, Michael hasn't been killed, so there doesn't need to be any real retconning to get him back. Plus, it would have been more interesting story-wise, since AU!Michael is their big bad this season. I also thought the actor who played Adam was fine and would be happy to have him back as Michael's meatsuit if he were available.

*Shrug* I feel like they just wanted to bring Speight back on the show for some reason, and did whatever they had to to get him an arc. Which is annoying to me on a couple different levels -- on the level that it makes it feel like the show is really just a particular clique's personal playground and they wanted their buddy to come over and play, and on the level that Gabriel was a confirmed death (and IMO had already overstayed his welcome by the time he died anyway) so bringing him back at this point is ridiculous within the world of the show.

On 3/28/2018 at 5:56 PM, takalotti said:

Lucifer begging for money was all kinds of perfect for me. I never thought entitled/belligerent begging could even exist, but of course that’s the only way Lucifer would do it. Why the guy bothered to help him, I don’t know.

Yeah, I did like Lucifer's terrible begging. "Money! MONEYYYYY!"

I also felt seriously terrible for the guy with the bum leg who now will never be healed. He seemed like a sweet person.

It wasn't a problem for me that Sister Jo was just locally famous and that people knew about her from word of mouth, rather than through news stories, though. Faith healing is so incredibly fringe, I feel like a reporter pitching story about a real faith healer would likely be dismissed as embarrassingly naive or awkwardly religious (even/especially at a tabloid). That said, I think Sister Jo herself would eat up the publicity with a spoon. She seemed like the type who'd love it. Especially since it would bring in more business, and her thing was being business-minded.

[The Companion]

On 2/8/2018 at 8:01 PM, bettername2come said:

Gabriel!

That is all.

Eeeeeee. I don't really care about the justification, I just want him in play 

On 2/8/2018 at 9:21 PM, SueB said:

I guessed Speight from the shaving people video BECAUSE of the hair.  His mouth was sewn shut.  Gross.  

The Good: 
- TFW. And their cards are on the table. No secrets.  I'm so happy about that.
- Donatello reading the tablet. I hope this goes well.
- Well, I would have never thought they'd support Lucifer, but their WINGS.  That was a good bribe.  I hope Duomo (?) gets stabbed in her dismissive face. First dissing a "lesser" angel and now bending the knee for Lucifer.
- At least they wanted to kill Ketch.
- I LIKE Cas' sassy attitude.
- Gabriel!  I don't care what McPlotonium I have to swallow.  I wanted him back.  But he needs to get rescued and get his sass on.

The Bad:
- Lucifer has too central of a story. He wasn't awful (I mean, of course he's AWFUL). His lines were reasonably funny and I was never worried they were going for redemption so that was good.
- Ketch is alive and smarming.
- 82 storylines, must be a B-L episode.

The Ugly:
- Sexy scene w/ LUCIFER and Sister Jo.  Just, nope.  Skin crawling nope. 

Don't get me wrong, Daneel sells the sexy.  But Lucifer is so nope.  

On Sister Jo: well, she's interesting.  Not happy that she's enabled Lucifer but she's got a few layers to her. The 'low-level functionary' finding her place on earth.  Kind of having a bit of a human addiction thing going.  

Bottom Line: More set-up than payoff but Team Free Will is back together in the bunker and Gabriel lives.  I'm actually hoping the angel storyline GOES some where.  It seems like they are down to the weasels who survived.  What they need is someone with a sense of humor ... what they NEED is Gabriel.  

Wow, it's like I don't even have to post. Pretty much same all around. I do not understand why we are stuck with endless Lucifer. 

On 2/9/2018 at 4:20 AM, Whodunnit said:

Oh Gosh, wouldn't it be nice if they used a keyword to let the other know that they have been kidnapped, or made sure to test each other by asking a question with false information like, I dunno, "Hey, Cass, do you remember that time Bobby's dog Ringo peed on Sam's leg?"

I seem to recall that they used to take those kinds of  precautions back in season 1. Sigh.

Heh. Sort of like if they tested with holy water regularly when fighting demons and encountering hunters. 

 

I don't really have much to add on this one. I found myself totally bored until the end when Gabriel returned.

[gonzosgirrl]

For me, the ret-con resurrection of Gabriel was one of Dabb's more heinous crimes. Just another f. u. to canon, to the story, to the sacrifice the character made for the cause in S5. A large step in the dismantling of all that came before, that sadly continues to this day. All in fan service of bringing Speight back because he's popular at cons.

49 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Eeeeeee. I don't really care about the justification, I just want him in play 

Alas, I think this is the tenet of the SPN writers' room (you know, if they actually had a writers' room).

Edited April 4, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[The Companion]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, the ret-con resurrection of Gabriel was one of Dabb's more heinous crimes. Just another f. u. to canon, to the story, to the sacrifice the character made for the cause in S5. A large step in the dismantling of all that came before, that sadly continues to this day. All in fan service of bringing Speight back because he's popular at cons.

Alas, I think this is the tenet of the SPN writers' room (you know, if they actually had a writers' room).

I hear you.  It's frustrating when the show establishes rules and then fails to follow them. It feels like there was a way to do it consistent with canon. Chuck could have begun the process of rebuilding him on the way out, or there could have been something with the Big Empty. 

In the end, for me, I am just happy he is back. He was one of my favorite characters and his episodes are some of my favorite. 

I wish they did a better job with continuity in general. It bothers me more in the OOC things that happen, personally (and there are some doozies this season), but fans put so much energy into this show and I wish it felt like the writers do the same.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, The Companion said:

but fans put so much energy into this show and I wish it felt like the writers do the same.

I wish the writers liked the show (and the characters) as much as the fans do.  They're obviously painting by numbers now.  Finger painting in great big globs.  

[gonzosgirrl]

For me to invest in a fantasy world such as the Supernatural verse, there have to be at least some rules we can count on, or else everything is in question. I love twists as much as the next person, but there is a difference between a well thought out surprise and completely ignoring the rules of your own universe on the regular. It was established early and often that seeing an angel's burned wings meant they were dead. Period. They flouted that not once, but twice this season. 

I get what you're saying though. If I wasn't so invested in the show as a story, it wouldn't bother me either. Heh, I wouldn't care how many years of canon they trashed d if it meant I could have David Tennant back as the Doctor. 🙂

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, The Companion said:

I hear you.  It's frustrating when the show establishes rules and then fails to follow them. It feels like there was a way to do it consistent with canon. Chuck could have begun the process of rebuilding him on the way out, or there could have been something with the Big Empty. 

In the end, for me, I am just happy he is back. He was one of my favorite characters and his episodes are some of my favorite. 

I wish they did a better job with continuity in general. It bothers me more in the OOC things that happen, personally (and there are some doozies this season), but fans put so much energy into this show and I wish it felt like the writers do the same.

I used to really like the character - until they brought him back in Season 13. Which for me devalued everything I liked about him. I loved the Gabriel twist in the first place and while I was sad when he "died" in Season 5, it was such a great send-off IMO. After running for so long, Dean seemed to get through to him and he made a genuine last effort, to do the right thing re: the crazy apocalypse plan both his brothers were following. It was poignant, heartfelt and heroic. 

Until it wasn`t. Because hey ho, it was just another stupid prank. Dean`s words were dust in the wind. Gabriel risked absolutely nothing, he learned absolutely nothing and went right back to being "hahaha porn." If they wanted a shallow shell to do crude comic relief with, they could have invented some new character. So them trying to give that shallow shell some belated new story meant bubkis to me.

As so many times in the Dabb years all those retcon episodes do is go back in time and retroactively destroy things for me I liked in earlier Seasons.    

[DeeDee79]

Personally speaking I've never understood the Gabriel love. He was only in a handful of episodes and one of them was just a Cas hallucination. Every time that he's been onscreen he's been awful to everyone around him and especially to Sam and Dean. His one saving grace was his sacrifice in season 5 and it was pointless for them to undue that moment for fanservice.