S13.E13: Devil's Bargain

[Jonesy]

I liked it a lot--damn but I think this is Buck-Leming's best year.  They are still totally uneven but I've found their episodes highly entertaining this year.  Absolutely LOVE the Gabriel twist--one of my favorites in many of a moon.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jakes

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What fun is it just to destroy and then be completely on your own, alone forever with nobody to lord it over.  I think he did want to rule over the angels. I'll agree he didn't care anything about Hell. Complete and utter disdain for demons and humans

You'd have to ask Lucifer. I'm just saying what I remember was his goal in s5 and even in s12.  It was never IMO implied that Lucifer wanted power in Heaven. IMO all he wanted was humanity dead, in whatever manner, to punish God and get retribution for God kicking him out of Heaven.

What I can see his him trying to be in control of Heaven to make sure Michael can't and not because he cares about the angels or humanity but just to get one over on Michael who was in charge of Heaven. AW Michael already put him in a cage and took some of his grace, so this is really probably about beating Michael which he can pretend is about the angels but it's more personal than that. It might not even be about Jack now that I think about it but I'll still keep in my back pocket.

I'm kind of confused about the demon tablet. How did the boys come to have it? I thought that was in Crowley's possession last? When did they get it?

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You'd have to ask Lucifer. I'm just saying what I remember was his goal in s5 and even in s12.  It was never IMO implied that Lucifer wanted power in Heaven. IMO all he wanted was humanity dead, in whatever manner, to punish God and get retribution for God kicking him out of Heaven.

See, I don't think he wanted humanity dead, per se--not that he was opposed to a bunch of them dying--but just wanted to prove to God that his most beloved creation was broken. I think he was willing to sacrifice every demon, but I actually think he didn't want to destroy humanity as much as humiliate humanity.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I don't think he wanted humanity dead, per se--not that he was opposed to a bunch of them dying--but just wanted to prove to God that his most beloved creation was broken. I think he was willing to sacrifice every demon, but I actually think he didn't want to destroy humanity as much as humiliate humanity.

Are you talking about s5 or s11/12? I thought it was pretty clear in s5, that he hated every human being and if he couldn't turn them into a demon he would kill them.  But maybe I've been watching Lucifer wrong all these years. It's possible LOL

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Are you talking about s5 or s11/12? I thought it was pretty clear in s5, that he hated every human being and if he couldn't turn them into a demon he would kill them.  But maybe I've been watching Lucifer wrong all these years. It's possible LOL

I'm talking S5. I don't recall him trying to turn all of humanity into demons in S5--although he did have them possessed by demons sometimes--but he did want demons wiped out once they had won the war for him.

I'm just going by his constant monologuing in S5 where would drone on and on about how God couldn't see humanity for what it was, flawed and imperfect. It wasn't so much that he wanted humanity dead and gone, IMO, he just didn't want God to love humanity more than him, IMO. That's why he started twisting human souls into demons in the first place, to show God that his creation was flawed. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm just going by his constant monologuing in S5 where would drone on and on about how God couldn't see humanity for what it was, flawed and imperfect. It wasn't so much that he wanted humanity dead and gone, IMO, he just didn't want God to love humanity more than him, IMO. That's why he started twisting human souls into demons in the first place, to show God that his creation was flawed. 

I gotcha. I guess to me twisting humans into demons is essentially killing humanity. But maybe I'm just being nitpicky.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I gotcha. I guess to me twisting humans into demons is essentially killing humanity. But maybe I'm just being nitpicky.

Except he wasn't actively doing that anymore. Sure, Hell was continuing the practice as a way to power Hell, but Lucifer only turned a few souls himself. He did it to make a point to God and God failed to see his point and I think he got bored of it if God wasn't going to pay attention.

IMO, humans are insignificant to Lucifer. He just doesn't see the appeal, but I don't think he's actively trying to destroy them as much as he's still trying to get God's attention by messing with them.

[trxr4kids]

Random thoughts:

The poking Cas with a stick was slightly funny in that stand by me way.

Is it just me or does his coat seem darker than even the season 4 coat, I like it so no complaints.

The neck slash was bigger than necessary to grace suck.

Why was Cupid dressed, let alone in a suit and tie, they're supposed to be naked guys who like to hug.

I don't really get why Lucifer isn't a premium angel but Aniel (sp) is, like others have said his grace should recharge just fine since even the cage didn't damage it, it seems unlikely an au would.

Ketch and Assmodeus continue to simultaneously bore and irritate me.

I love the overcoats but really where are they stored in the car and when do they get them cleaned, I've never seen a garment bag, let alone a dry cleaners trip.

Wow Sam had sister jo's card info in like 5 seconds of talking to leg guy and tracked it all based on no information, lol. How did he direct call the hotel from his cell posing as presumably front desk? If Sam can do that stuff you'd think he'd be smart enough to just slap cuffs on Lucifer before the talking, but nope.

I thought the plaid Dean and Sam wore in their last scenes was shockingly flattering, especially considering some of the more hideous previous plaids.

Is Lucifers ridiculously white room in Heaven or a cliche warehouse in New jersey I wonder.

I've almost convinced myself that buck/lemming created buck/lemming bingo as opposed to fandom and think they're so clever, because it's obvious they think they are.

Edited February 9, 2018 by trxr4kids
Cupid thoughts

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Why was Cupid dressed, let alone in a suit and tie, they're supposed to be naked guys who like to hug.

That was just one particular cupid.  Well, the naked part anyway, Cas did say the hug was like their handshake.  But, the cupid we saw in Sacrifice was fully dressed.

 

21 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

How did he direct call the hotel from his cell posing as presumably front desk? If Sam can do that stuff you'd think he'd be smart enough to just slap cuffs on Lucifer before the talking, but nope.

Come on, you know they (all the characters on the show, not just Sam and DEan) have to announce their plans first so they can be thwarted.

[ZennyKenny]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Third, Sam and Dean, don't let the manipulative psychopath monologue and make his case. You shoot him in the head, burn his body and bury the ashes in concrete just for good measure. He will never be helpful and all you're going to have to show for it is a bunch of regrets. Come on, you boys are better than this!

Honestly they're really not. Look at how they just stared at Lucifer in the hotel with their guns pointed at him until Sister Jo just got bored and knocked Sam down. Or heck, last episode where they again stood there pointing their guns at the witches, announcing that they had witch bullets (seriously wtf??), until the witches got bored and knocked them down. I know the show likes to go for drama, but come on! Make the first move once-in-awhile!

[Commando Cody]

If cupids are low level angels, is the grace the same quality? Would eating a cupid's grace be like fast food - less nutritious so you would have to eat more of it or do you think all angel grace is the same? If Lucifer could steal another arc angel's grace, would it fix him? Also, I can't remember anymore, is Cas still living on some other angel's grace? The same angel's grace that hasn't worn off?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

If cupids are low level angels, is the grace the same quality? Would eating a cupid's grace be like fast food - less nutritious so you would have to eat more of it or do you think all angel grace is the same? If Lucifer could steal another arc angel's grace, would it fix him? Also, I can't remember anymore, is Cas still living on some other angel's grace? The same angel's grace that hasn't worn off?

No, Castiel found his own grace at the end of season 10 :). It had been hidden by Metatron in a library book and he found it during The Book of the Damned IIRC

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except he wasn't actively doing that anymore. Sure, Hell was continuing the practice as a way to power Hell, but Lucifer only turned a few souls himself. He did it to make a point to God and God failed to see his point and I think he got bored of it if God wasn't going to pay attention.

IMO, humans are insignificant to Lucifer. He just doesn't see the appeal, but I don't think he's actively trying to destroy them as much as he's still trying to get God's attention by messing with them.

Fair enough. I'll just agree to disagree on Lucifer's motivations. :)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

The poking Cas with a stick was slightly funny in that stand by me way.

I do not understand Cas in this episode. At the end of 13.12 he stabbed Lucifer twice. So what he didn't learn his lesson after all and Lucifer had the power to what blast him somewhere else. Or did he just stumble into the woods and laid there until he got poked. Why didn't another angel ping that he was in jeopardy if he was close to death? Or was he just unconscious until he got poked? 

I swear I almost think he's alternating between Cas, Empty Cas and some other Cas. And Misha is too good of an actor to lose the thread of regular Castiel. I did think his convo with Dean in the lair was the most Castiel he's seemed all season.

29 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Honestly they're really not. Look at how they just stared at Lucifer in the hotel with their guns pointed at him until Sister Jo just got bored and knocked Sam down. Or heck, last episode where they again stood there pointing their guns at the witches, announcing that they had witch bullets (seriously wtf??), until the witches got bored and knocked them down. I know the show likes to go for drama, but come on! Make the first move once-in-awhile!

I am so tired of them doing stupid things like that. I swear they have network notes to exposition every stupid thing they intend to do. I mean we already know they have witch killing bullets. Do they think they need to capture new viewers every moment and exposition EVERY THING?  Do they not know that this show has pretty much the same audience every week. Hell we could probably identify each other..all approximately 2 million of us. LOL

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I do not understand Cas in this episode. At the end of 13.12 he stabbed Lucifer twice. So what he didn't learn his lesson after all and Lucifer had the power to what blast him somewhere else. Or did he just stumble into the woods and laid there until he got poked. Why didn't another angel ping that he was in jeopardy if he was close to death? Or was he just unconscious until he got poked? 

I swear I almost think he's alternating between Cas, Empty Cas and some other Cas. And Misha is too good of an actor to lose the thread of regular Castiel. I did think his convo with Dean in the lair was the most Castiel he's seemed all season.

Sorry to keep going back to this, but I really do think they cut out scenes they shouldn't have. The last we saw was Cas stabbing Lucifer at the end of 13x12, but according to Dabb the last we were meant to see was him escape Lucifer and Asmodeus and collapse in a field. This episode just seemed to cut to Cas in the field without showing us how he got into such bad shape. I think from Cas' "he tried to kill me" we are meant to believe Lucifer stabbed him back before he got away hence his bad state. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Sorry to keep going back to this, but I really do think they cut out scenes they shouldn't have. The last we saw was Cas stabbing Lucifer at the end of 13x12, but according to Dabb the last we were meant to see was him escape Lucifer and Asmodeus and collapse in a field. This episode just seemed to cut to Cas in the field without showing us how he got into such bad shape. I think from Cas' "he tried to kill me" we are meant to believe Lucifer stabbed him back before he got away hence his bad state. 

I can believe there were cut scenes but within the scene we got, he was bleeding from his mouth.  I know that Lucifer sliced him in 13.12 but Cas was bleeding from his mouth in this episode. I don't remember Cas bleeding when he had been cut before he just oozed out some grace. And he should have been able to heal himself. Did Lucifer punch him and I've forgotten?

[Commando Cody]

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

No, Castiel found his own grace at the end of season 10 :). It had been hidden by Metatron in a library book and he found it during The Book of the Damned IIRC

I never did pay that close attention to the later seasons. I must have only watched that episode once. For some reason, I thought the grace was found, but lost again in some way after that. I was still thinking he was using someone else's grace. Thanks for clearing that up. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Commando Cody said:

I never did pay that close attention to the later seasons. I must have only watched that episode once. For some reason, I thought the grace was found, but lost again in some way after that. I was still thinking he was using someone else's grace. Thanks for clearing that up. 

No problem. I often find it hard to remember things from the latest seasons also, so I know how it feels to need things cleared up lol

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The last we saw was Cas stabbing Lucifer at the end of 13x12, but according to Dabb the last we were meant to see was him escape Lucifer and Asmodeus and collapse in a field. This episode just seemed to cut to Cas in the field without showing us how he got into such bad shape. I think from Cas' "he tried to kill me" we are meant to believe Lucifer stabbed him back before he got away hence his bad state. 

As I recall, Cass had a flashback as he was limping through the woods; Lucifer did indeed injure him. He cut him across the stomach so Cass retreated and then passed out. He must have healed while he was out, because when he woke up the cut was gone. I think the collapsing-in-the-woods (as opposed to a field as Dabb said) was probably supposed to be the end of the last episode. That would line up with Dabb's comments of "The last time we saw Castiel he collapsed in a field."--or something to that effect. I think they added the flashback to this episode as a way of explaining why he was collapsed in the woods because, for whatever reason, they cut it from the previous episode.

Edited February 9, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I never did pay that close attention to the later seasons. I must have only watched that episode once. For some reason, I thought the grace was found, but lost again in some way after that. I was still thinking he was using someone else's grace. Thanks for clearing that up. 

He found his grace but then Rowena put the attack spell on him and that almost killed him. Maybe that's what you were thinking about?

[Commando Cody]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He found his grace but then Rowena put the attack spell on him and that almost killed him. Maybe that's what you were thinking about?

I'm convinced that I only watched that season one time. Or at least the episodes concerning Cas's grace and after.  I may have to queue up Netflix and do a refresher.  I have no recollection of what happened to it. 

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I am so tired of them doing stupid things like that. I swear they have network notes to exposition every stupid thing they intend to do. I mean we already know they have witch killing bullets. Do they think they need to capture new viewers every moment and exposition EVERY THING?  Do they not know that this show has pretty much the same audience every week. Hell we could probably identify each other..all approximately 2 million of us. LOL

It's honestly kind of insulting because it comes across like the writers don't have enough faith in the audience to comprehend what's happening, so they feel they have to have the actors verbally spell everything out.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

It's honestly kind of insulting because it comes across like the writers don't have enough faith in the audience to comprehend what's happening, so they feel they have to have the actors verbally spell everything out.

I swear I think they intentionally aggravate us with things like how the boys are being made to look stupid so they can slip by retcons or resurrecting dead characters that shouldn't be resurrectable. LOL

[MysteryGuest]

5 hours ago, scribe95 said:

I thought Cas had stabbed Lucifer but they started the show like it didn't even happen and made me think I have amnesia or something. I mean, what the fuck was that?

They definitely messed up the continuity somehow.  Cas certainly didn't appear to have been hurt that badly by Lucifer, but he did stab him pretty well, and his eyes sort of fizzled out.  So what happened then?  Cas wanders off and ends up in the woods somehow where he passes out, and when he comes to he goes right back to where he had the fight with Lucifer?  Why did he leave to begin with?  Or are we supposed to believe that Lucifer had enough juice to zap Cas away?  I don't think he was supposed to have that much power left.  

There really was some very uneven writing here.  If they're so bored with writing for these characters, then maybe they need to walk away and let someone else give it a shot.  As for Danneel signing up for this, I'm sure since the show was making the effort to work her into the cast this season, she wasn't going to bitch too much about the storyline.  I think her character was interesting, and the fact that as a fallen angel she wasn't just walking around like a lost zombie as most of them do, but instead had actually made a lucrative career for herself, was a nice twist.  Considering what she was given to work with, I thought she did well.  

I think we're supposed to assume that when Michael took some of Lucifer's grace, he took enough to really weaken him, while leaving him just a bit.  He took the cupid's grace, but that wasn't going to power him up too much.  And now he's slowly feeding off of Sister Jo.  I can buy that the small amounts she's losing are easily replenished, while it's going to take him much longer to recover all that he lost.  What made it seem strange was the seeming lack of time between feedings.  I think there was supposed to be passage of time, but we really weren't given a good indication of that.  Again, bad writing, bad editing...  Same shit, different day.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I recall, Cass had a flashback as he was limping through the woods; Lucifer did indeed injure him. He cut him across the stomach so Cass retreated and then passed out. He must have healed while he was out, because when he woke up the cut was gone. I think the collapsing-in-the-woods (as opposed to a field as Dabb said) was probably supposed to be the end of the last episode. That would line up with Dabb's comments of "The last time we saw Castiel he collapsed in a field."--or something to that effect. I think they added the flashback to this episode as a way of explaining why he was collapsed in the woods because, for whatever reason, they cut it from the previous episode.

Lucifer did swipe at Cas with the blade and cut him, but why is he just bleeding and passing out like a human? Why no grace escaping the wound. They always show them slitting a throat to steal grace, but both Gadreel (when Dean slashed his chest) and Zachariah (when Dean stabbed him in the face), and various other wounded angels bled grace.

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lucifer did swipe at Cas with the blade and cut him, but why is he just bleeding and passing out like a human? Why no grace escaping the wound. They always show them slitting a throat to steal grace, but both Gadreel (when Dean slashed his chest) and Zachariah (when Dean stabbed him in the face), and various other wounded angels bled grace.

Well, maybe it's the difference between being stabbed and being cut? Perhaps the angel blade wasn't in contact long enough or the cut was deep enough to bleed angel grace? Maybe they forgot to add the effect? I don't know. All I know is Cass was injured, he retreated, passed out and that's how he ended up in the woods to be poked at by a couple of kids. It's not the first time he's been injured and needed time to recover from said injury, so I just went with it.

Edited February 10, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, maybe it's the difference between being stabbed and being cut. Perhaps the angel blade wasn't in contact long enough to bleed angel grace? Maybe they forgot to add the effect? I don't know. All I know is Cass was injured, he retreated, passed out and that's how he ended up in the woods to be poked about by a couple of kids.

Yeah, I saw it too - it still doesn't make any sense. If it was only a cut, why didn't he heal himself? Are we supposed to assume that in between Cas stabbing Luci, and his red eyes flickering out, Lucifer somehow revived, stabbed Cas again, took enough grace from him that he couldn't heal himself*, and then ran off, leaving Cas to stumble off into the woods? I'm not arguing with you, just trying (and failing)  to make some sense of it.

And if Cas was that weakened, why wouldn't Lucifer finish him off? He certainly lashed out at him with what looked like intent to kill before Cas turned the tables on him at the end of the last episode.

Edited February 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, I saw it too - it still doesn't make any sense. If it was only a cut, why didn't he heal himself? Are we supposed to assume that in between Cas stabbing Luci, and his red eyes flickering out, Lucifer somehow revived, stabbed Cas again, took enough grace from him that he couldn't heal himself*, and then ran off, leaving Cas to stumble off into the woods? I'm not arguing with you, just trying (and failing)  to make some sense of it.

I want to know why Cas was bleeding from his mouth. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

[KirkB]

Oh good, it wasn't just me. I thought I'd missed something (literally like part of the episode had been cut) when the last one ended with Cas stabbing Luci and Luci's eyes eyes going dark, to Cas in the woods and Luci wandering around on his own.

Edited February 10, 2018 by KirkB

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, maybe it's the difference between being stabbed and being cut? Perhaps the angel blade wasn't in contact long enough or the cut was deep enough to bleed angel grace? Maybe they forgot to add the effect? I don't know. All I know is Cass was injured, he retreated, passed out and that's how he ended up in the woods to be poked at by a couple of kids. It's not the first time he's been injured and needed time to recover from said injury, so I just went with it.

FWIW, when Lucifer sliced Cas he backed away and you could see him leaking grace at the end of 13.12.

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, I saw it too - it still doesn't make any sense. If it was only a cut, why didn't he heal himself? Are we supposed to assume that in between Cas stabbing Luci, and his red eyes flickering out, Lucifer somehow revived, stabbed Cas again, took enough grace from him that he couldn't heal himself*, and then ran off, leaving Cas to stumble off into the woods? I'm not arguing with you, just trying (and failing)  to make some sense of it.

And if Cas was that weakened, why wouldn't Lucifer finish him off? He certainly lashed out at him with what looked like intent to kill before Cas turned the tables on him at the end of the last episode.

 

I think, Cass stabbed Lucifer, which weakened him. Lucifer took a swipe at Cass. And they both stumbled off weakened. So no, I don't think Lucifer recovered and stole Cass's grace. He retreated before Lucifer could do it. And Lucifer was too weakened to follow Cass and finish him off. It's like two wild animals who gave as good as they got and limped off to lick their wounds, IMO. I'm not saying they did it well, I'm just saying that was my understanding of the sequence.

 

ETA: I guess I just look at it as, of all the things that made no sense in this episode, this worked well enough for me I could just go with it. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, I saw it too - it still doesn't make any sense. If it was only a cut, why didn't he heal himself? Are we supposed to assume that in between Cas stabbing Luci, and his red eyes flickering out, Lucifer somehow revived, stabbed Cas again, took enough grace from him that he couldn't heal himself*, and then ran off, leaving Cas to stumble off into the woods? I'm not arguing with you, just trying (and failing)  to make some sense of it.

And if Cas was that weakened, why wouldn't Lucifer finish him off? He certainly lashed out at him with what looked like intent to kill before Cas turned the tables on him at the end of the last episode.

Here's a headcanon.

The Cas that Lucifer sliced was the Empty Cas. Being sliced pissed him off so he jetted back the Empty and sent the REAL Cas back. That's why he woke up weirdly bewildered and went back to the spot he left looking for Lucifer.  Or the reverse if you like. Or maybe Cas died from the cut, and another Cas in the Empty was swapped out with him. Cause my head canon is that all of the Cas' in the Empty woke up when Jack woke him up. Maybe that would explain why Cas has seemed kind of all over the place this season. Maybe they are flitting back and forth. Like maybe they sleep in turns and one of them comes back up to keep the Empty Keeper from beating the crap out of all of them. LOL

I got nuthin' really

[catrox14]

Another question. Didn't Kevin translate the angel tablet? Don't they have those notes in the bunker somewhere?

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Another question. Didn't Kevin translate the angel tablet? Don't they have those notes in the bunker somewhere?

I don't think he ever finished it or even got very far. He seemed to have a very hard time reading it for some reason. At one point he tried to translate it to a doodle language and then translate the doodle language to something he could read, but, like I said, it didn't seem like he'd gotten very far before Gadreel killed him and stole it. But, yeah, what he had translated should be in the bunker, I think. Maybe Donatello was using Kevin's notes in his own translation.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think he ever finished it or even got very far. He seemed to have a very hard time reading it for some reason. At one point he tried to translate it to a doodle language and then translate the doodle language to something he could read, but, like I said, it didn't seem like he'd gotten very far before Gadreel killed him and stole it. But, yeah, what he had translated should be in the bunker, I think. Maybe Donatello was using Kevin's notes in his own translation.

And the weird thing was that he translated the leviathan tablet in one sitting while Dick watched.  No problem.  Then, he appeared to just be able to read the demon tablet when Crowley was asking him what was on it in A Little Slice of KEvin.  Now, when he only had half of it, it made total sense that he was having trouble with it,  But, for some reason, the intact angel tablet was confusing and hard to read and needed translating

[ZennyKenny]

Oh yeah, one more thing: Dear SPN writers, don't you ever, EVER rip off Bruce Campbell like that again!

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Oh yeah, one more thing: Dear SPN writers, don't you ever, EVER rip off Bruce Campbell like that again!

What do you mean?

[KirkB]

Luci's line on the throne. "Hail to the king, baby." Army of Darkness wasn't it?

Edited February 10, 2018 by KirkB

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Luci's line on the throne. "Hail to the king, baby." Army of Darkness wasn't it?

Ohhhh.....Thanks!

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

Luci's line on the throne. "Hail to the king, baby." Army of Darkness wasn't it?

Yeah, that.

That said.... GODS would I wouldn't give to see the Winchesters & Ash team up to fight Deadites!

[SueB]

Semi-hopeless attempt to make logic on angel grace rules:
- Borrowed grace doesn't regenerate.  So anything Lucifer gets from anyone is just a "fix" (canon)
- Regular grace DOES regenerate but takes as long as the plot dictates (canon)
- We DON'T have rules on how long it takes if you've had a portion of your grace removed versus expended.  Sister Jo seemed to recover quickly.  Cas, who got just a snippet back was able to recover sufficiently with that snippet to heal right away. Lucifer, wasn't able to even zap mortals with only partial grace left (at the start).

Other factors:
- Archangel grace seems a different 'flavor' than regular angel.  Stronger for sure.  But is it the SAME grace?  Because there are things only archangels can do.  Thinking of it like gasoline -- do they have an extra additive?  Do they expend more grace just as a matter of course? Like a Forumla One car versus stock car?
- How much is the "locked in a Nick suit" effecting Lucifer.  Some, alot, or nothing ... all seem viable answers.
- Lucifer was definitely impacted by AU hopping.  Is that just him (again Nicksuit question) or everyone?
 

Adding these extra factors into the mix:

- There's plenty of reasons why they could say Lucifer's recovery is different than a regular angel recovery.  Also, the borrowed grace is getting burned through more rapidly if you look at how little he got on the Cupid hit (which was probably weaker grace in the first place).  I think that's possibly explainable with either the "archangel" angle or the "nicksuit" angle.
 

NEW TOPIC:
- Dean asked Cas if he was alright, Cas changed the subject (besides a proforma "I'm fine").  I don't think Cas is Empty!Cas but I do think there may be something he's not sharing.

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

Dean asked Cas if he was alright, Cas changed the subject (besides a proforma "I'm fine").  I don't think Cas is Empty!Cas but I do think there may be something he's not sharing.

The Empty Keeper has to be much more powerful than it lets on to keep all the angels and demons quiet. It's also rather cruel giving the beating he gave Cas and showing him his failures and why he shouldn't be alive.  I always questioned why the Empty Keeper who did that to Castiel would  just let him go back and never really bought that it's because  Cas annoyed him that much. 

I've thought all along that Cas seemed sad and worried when he came back, like he couldn't allow himself to be really happy to be with the boys again. I mentioned it in those ep threads that if he's not Empty Cas or some other version, that maybe he came back on borrowed time so that he could deal with Jack, and maybe say a final goodbye to the boys. MO, if he's on borrowed time, then he likely doesn't want to tell Dean because Dean was so happy to have him back, that I don't think he wants to break his heart that this is temporary. 

 

Questions about Gabriel

How would Asmodeus even know about Gabriel being alive presuming it is THE Gabriel. If it is THE Gabriel then he must have gone back in time to hide given he's wearing puffy shirt style from hundreds of years ago (unless he was an actor in a play but he looks pretty shopworn).  So that implies that someone time traveled to find him. 

Who knew  Gabriel wasn't dead? I thought about him being in the Empty but the shirt and his condition confuses me unless he was killed in the past, and was wearing those clothes when he was killed really most sincerely and in the Empty. And since the Empty Keeper is cruel, maybe he sewed Gabriel's mouth shut in order to keep him from talking and keeping him awake.  If he was in the Empty then how did someone get him out? 

Which raises a question. Billie said that a reaper might "make a mistake" and dump the boys into the Empty which implies that it's not a typical place the reapers go. Do reapers take angels and demons to the Empty or do they only take human souls to Heaven or Hell? If so does Asmodeus have reapers on his payroll? Did he bribe the Empty Keeper? Hmmm 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

NEW TOPIC:
- Dean asked Cas if he was alright, Cas changed the subject (besides a proforma "I'm fine").  I don't think Cas is Empty!Cas but I do think there may be something he's not sharing.

Of course there is always the possibilities of subterfuge on this show, but my read of it was Cass is just kind of sick of having this same discussion with Dean every year, Something always happens to sideline Cass and they come back together to discuss whether everyone is okay. It's like he was just bored of the conversation and thought it a waste of time. Which I found amusing, myself.

[gonzosgirrl]

Alternate explanation: LOL!Canon 

[ILoveReading]

I tend to subscribe to Occam's razor. 

I think its Cas but the writing isn't consistent from one episode to the next. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

How would Asmodeus even know about Gabriel being alive presuming it is THE Gabriel. If it is THE Gabriel then he must have gone back in time to hide given he's wearing puffy shirt style from hundreds of years ago (unless he was an actor in a play but he looks pretty shopworn).  So that implies that someone time traveled to find him. 

Different possibility (no spoilers, just spec): 

What if someone went back to the past to a time *before* Gabriel was killed and brought that Gabriel into the future?  (We've certainly seen that before--most recently with Gavin.  Wasn't it Rowena who managed it last time?)  I didn't think demons could time travel, but Asmodeus is a "prince of hell," and his powers seem to change depending on Plot. 

But this wouldn't be *our* Gabriel and would have no connection with the boys (though he would probably know about them, since they were planned "since Dad turned on the lights.")  So we can do the whole "meet cute" and get him on the boys' side all over again. :)

Anyway, with both Lucifer and Michael on the rampage, having an archangel in your dungeon seems...handy.  Maybe Asmodeus isn't as stupid as he seems.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Different possibility (no spoilers, just spec): 

What if someone went back to the past to a time *before* Gabriel was killed and brought that Gabriel into the future?  (We've certainly seen that before--most recently with Gavin.  Wasn't it Rowena who managed it last time?)  I didn't think demons could time travel, but Asmodeus is a "prince of hell," and his powers seem to change depending on Plot. 

But this wouldn't be *our* Gabriel and would have no connection with the boys (though he would probably know about them, since they were planned "since Dad turned on the lights.")  So we can do the whole "meet cute" and get him on the boys' side all over again. :)

Anyway, with both Lucifer and Michael on the rampage, having an archangel in your dungeon seems...handy.  Maybe Asmodeus isn't as stupid as he seems.

It was Abbadon who managed it last time. She bought him forward as a weapon to use against Crowley.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

It was Abbadon who managed it last time. She bought him forward as a weapon to use against Crowley.

Ah, thanks.  So apparently high-up demons *can* bring people into the future.  So...I'm voting for Asmodeus.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

It was Abbadon who managed it last time. She bought him forward as a weapon to use against Crowley.

And she was a Knight of Hell, so I would guess a Prince of Hell could do it too. 

[Wayward Son]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Ah, thanks.  So apparently high-up demons *can* bring people into the future.  So...I'm voting for Asmodeus.  

 

Just now, catrox14 said:

And she was a Knight of Hell, so I would guess a Prince of Hell could do it too. 

I think she may have used the time travel spell Henry used to get to the boys back in As Time Goes By? She would have known it from possessing Josie?