S13.E13: Devil's Bargain

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Ah, thanks.  So apparently high-up demons *can* bring people into the future.  So...I'm voting for Asmodeus.  

But the question remains how did he know about him? Gabriel went into hiding eons ago and changed himself into the Trickster and not even God could find him. None of the other archangels could find him until Dean and Sam found him. Unless I'm remembering wrong. A Prince of Hell is theoretically not as powerful as a fully powered archangel, so how would he have sussed him out? That's what I don't understand. I feel like this would have to be a post "dead Gabriel" wibbley wobbley timey wimey thing.

[KirkB]

If Asmodeus is planning to use Gabriel as a weapon he isn't thinking too clearly. On the surface, using an archangel to fight an archangel seems like a good idea. Fire with fire and all that. But if you can't stop Luci on your own, As, what makes you think you'd be able to handle Gabriel, especially if he manages to take down the oldest and most powerful of his brethren, somehow?

Edited February 10, 2018 by KirkB

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I think she may have used the time travel spell Henry used to get to the boys back in As Time Goes By? She would have known it from possessing Josie?

She did. 

I'm remembering back to when Cas said that time travel takes a lot of soul power and heavy math, but I guess that didn't matter anymore when spells will do it. :( Bleh. But they would sitll have to get a location on Gabriel so how did that happen if he was in his Trickster phase and that's when they captured him.  Someone had him captive given the sewn mouth. Or did Asmodeus sew it shut when he got him?

Of course, it might be something as stupid as Asmodeus was always lurking and someone gathered up Gabriel's dead body, and kept it. I mean they set that precedence with Crowley. Maybe we'll find out Crowley did the same thing with Gabriel and kept him on ice in Hell since he did it with the Nick suit. I am actually in favor of finding out that Crowley had him all along. The clothing is the only thing that throws me off that notion.

Maybe his mouth was sewn shut after his death for ...reasons. 

It could be an AW Gabriel who maybe Michael had killed back in the day and somehow someone in the BMOL got their hands on him, given Hess talked about opening a portal which implies they could cross universes or time travel. The guy on the other end said they didn't have enough time which implies a bigger process involving rifts or time travel IMO.

[ahrtee]

Sheesh.  I have to type faster :)  

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I think she may have used the time travel spell Henry used to get to the boys back in As Time Goes By? She would have known it from possessing Josie?

That makes sense, though it may now mean that it's common knowledge (among the Hell muckety-mucks, at least.)   The biggest issue that brings up for me is that the spell was "blood calls to blood."  (Hmmm...I wonder if he can get to Michael in the cage to use his grace to track Gabriel?  Michael as he is certainly wouldn't be any help to Asmodeus so he'd still need someone else.)

Also, Lucifer mentioned that Asmodeus learned some things that he didn't teach him, and Lucifer can time-travel, so...I guess they can give him whatever powers he needs and chalk it up to that. 

 

Just now, catrox14 said:

But the question remains how did he know about him? Gabriel went into hiding eons ago and changed himself into the Trickster and not even God could find him. None of the other archangels could find him until Dean and Sam found him. Unless I'm remembering wrong. A Prince of Hell is theoretically not as powerful as a fully powered archangel, so how would he have sussed him out? That's what I don't understand. I feel like this would have to be a post "dead Gabriel" wibbley wobbley timey wimey thing.

A few things:  first, we don't know that God couldn't find him.  He didn't bother with anything else, so why would he bother looking for a son who wasn't causing any problems?  Ditto Michael and Raphael.  Why would they care if little bro was around or not?  

My thought is that Asmodeus realized he needed an archangel, and Gabriel was his best bet (since he was already on earth, and also, arguably, the weakest).  Gabriel may have been the Trickster, but he also hung around humans just for fun (and to mess with them--thus, Tall Tales.)  So it seems likely that Assy set out to find him during one of his more visible visits (a few centuries ago, judging by his clothing?)  That's how the boys found him in the first place, after all, even if they didn't know who he was--because he did things that called attention to himself.  And someone doing "magic" back then would definitely catch people's attention.  

 

3 minutes ago, KirkB said:

If Asmodeus is planning to use Gabriel as a weapon he isn't thinking too clearly. On the surface, using an archangel to fight an archangel seems like a good idea. Fire with fire and all that. But if you can't stop Luci on your own, As, what makes you think you'd be able to handle Gabriel, especially if he manages to take down the oldest and most powerful of his brethren, somehow?

Well, no one *did* say Asmodeus is bright.  Or maybe he's just thinking one step at a time--get rid of the *known* enemy first, and deal with the fallout later (plus, if he already got the drop on Gabriel once, maybe he figures it won't be a problem in the future.)  Besides, isn't hubris the downfall of evil in every hero tale?  :)

[KirkB]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Well, no one *did* say Asmodeus is bright.  Or maybe he's just thinking one step at a time--get rid of the *known* enemy first, and deal with the fallout later (plus, if he already got the drop on Gabriel once, maybe he figures it won't be a problem in the future.)  Besides, isn't hubris the downfall of evil in every hero tale?  :)

Fair point.  :)  Luci, arguably the biggest bad of all, keeps getting beaten by two guys in flannel.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

A few things:  first, we don't know that God couldn't find him.  He didn't bother with anything else, so why would he bother looking for a son who wasn't causing any problems?  Ditto Michael and Raphael.  Why would they care if little bro was around or not?

They cared when it came to the Apocalypse. They wanted him then. Didn't they? Or am I confused. I might be confused. The Gabriel part of the Apocalpyse was always kind of boring to me. LOL

 

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My thought is that Asmodeus realized he needed an archangel, and Gabriel was his best bet (since he was already on earth, and also, arguably, the weakest).  Gabriel may have been the Trickster, but he also hung around humans just for fun (and to mess with them--thus, Tall Tales.)  So it seems likely that Assy set out to find him during one of his more visible visits (a few centuries ago, judging by his clothing?)  That's how the boys found him in the first place, after all, even if they didn't know who he was--because he did things that called attention to himself.  And someone doing "magic" back then would definitely catch people's attention.  

How would he have tracked him though?  But assuming that he did that then we have the same stupid problem that bringing Gavin from the past did. It should have altered everyone's TL which is why Dean and Sam insisted that he be sent back in s9 which Crowley ignored.

So bringing a now dead archangel from the past into this century should alter everything. But this is again a Buck Lemming ep and they don't give a shit if any of it makes any sense at all.

Edited February 10, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So bringing a now dead archangel from the past into this century should alter everything. But this is again a Buck Lemming ep and they don't give a shit if any of it makes any sense at all.

I doubt these writers care enough to worry about such things, but the most feasible option IMO is that he somehow grabbed Gabriel seconds before his death. That would cause the least damage to the timeline especially if Asmodeus also left behind a Doppelganger to fool Lucifer. 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I doubt these writers care enough to worry about such things, but the most feasible option IMO is that he somehow grabbed Gabriel seconds before his death. That would cause the least damage to the timeline especially if Asmodeus also left behind a Doppelganger to fool Lucifer. 

If he grabbed Gabriel before his death in 2010, does that mean he sent him back into the past given his clothing?

Edited February 10, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

If he grabbed Gabriel before his death in 2010, does that mean he sent him back into the past given his clothing?

Oh no I was offering an explanation for how they could have done this with minimum interference to the timeline. However, it is BuckLemming so chances are he was probably plucked from centuries ago haha

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Oh no I was offering an explanation for how they could have done this with minimum interference to the timeline. However, it is BuckLemming so chances are he was probably plucked from centuries ago haha

I understood what you were doing. I'm just thinking it through. If he grabbed Gabriel from his death in 2010, which is what I thought you were talking about, then how did Gabriel end up in the past, assuming he did given his clothing.  That's all I'm doing. Just wondering how they would explain even your scenario.

Or maybe after he grabbed him, Gabriel managed to escape and sent himself back in time?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understood what you were doing. I'm just thinking it through. If he grabbed Gabriel from his death in 2010, which is what I thought you were talking about, then how did Gabriel end up in the past, assuming he did given his clothing.  That's all I'm doing. Just wondering how they would explain even your scenario.

Or maybe after he grabbed him, Gabriel managed to escape and sent himself back in time?

If they were to go this route (which I honestly doubt) it could be Gabriel's original clothing and Asmodeus threw him random old clothing that was lying around haha

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If they were to go this route (which I honestly doubt) it could be Gabriel's original clothing and Asmodeus threw him random old clothing that was lying around haha

But how did he get it? Or am I missing something you're saying here. I'm not trying to pick at you. I actually love talking about these kinds of theories so I'm just in it for the discussion, not trying to pick it apart.

I thought you were saying that Gabriel is stabbed by Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods but Asmodeus gets to him just before he actually dies. Squirrels him away. Are you saying that Assy just had some old timey clothes and that's what he gave him?

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

But how did he get it? Or am I missing something you're saying here. I'm not trying to pick at you. I actually love talking about these kinds of theories so I'm just in it for the discussion, not trying to pick it apart.

I thought you were saying that Gabriel is stabbed by Lucifer in Hammer of the Gods but Asmodeus gets to him just before he actually dies. Squirrels him away. Are you saying that Assy just had some old timey clothes and that's what he gave him?

Yeah that's what I'm saying. He stashes him in some random hideout long ago abandoned and gives him a random outfit he found lying around haha

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe his mouth was sewn shut after his death for ...reasons. 

Zombie Archangel. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah that's what I'm saying. He stashes him in some random hideout long ago abandoned and gives him a random outfit he found lying around haha

Gotcha. I'm still hoping it was Crowley that stashed him since he did it with the Nick suit. And that Assy just got lucky and found him randomly. I'd rather give Crowley credit for it and that Assy is just an opportunist vs being a master strategist. I I don't want him being smarter than Crowley.

[KirkB]

Maybe Asmodeus has a thing for puffy shirts and lace collars? Or he just thinks it's humiliating to dress an angel that way?

As for sewing Gabriel's mouth shut, given his tendency to talk I probably would too.

[DittyDotDot]

Is that perhaps Gabriel's porn shirt he's wearing?

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is that perhaps Gabriel's porn shirt he's wearing?

Probably!  Wherever Gabriel has been, from the looks of him, he's been there for quite a while.  I find it more than a bit farfetched to think that Asmodeus swooped in just at the moment that Lucifer was killing Gabriel and stole away with him, but I put nothing past this show.  When we first met the Princes of Hell, we were told they'd been keeping a low profile for ages, so I don't see why Asmodeus would have bothered with Gabriel at that time.  But I'm sure we'll get some long-winded explanation as to just how he came to be, much like with did with Crowley's explanation about keeping Lucifer's meat suit on ice.

What makes Asmodeus so sure that Gabriel will kill his brother, anyway?  Why wouldn't he just join forces with him to take Asmodeus down?  I'm sure we'll find out, but I'm not sure I want to.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Probably!  Wherever Gabriel has been, from the looks of him, he's been there for quite a while.  I find it more than a bit farfetched to think that Asmodeus swooped in just at the moment that Lucifer was killing Gabriel and stole away with him, but I put nothing past this show.  When we first met the Princes of Hell, we were told they'd been keeping a low profile for ages, so I don't see why Asmodeus would have bothered with Gabriel at that time.  But I'm sure we'll get some long-winded explanation as to just how he came to be, much like with did with Crowley's explanation about keeping Lucifer's meat suit on ice.

What makes Asmodeus so sure that Gabriel will kill his brother, anyway?  Why wouldn't he just join forces with him to take Asmodeus down?  I'm sure we'll find out, but I'm not sure I want to.

It doesn't really make sense since God clearly didn't know that Gabriel was alive, but maybe Lucifer just couldn't bring himself to kill his little brother and instead just put on a good show for the Winchesters and the pagan gods, but imprisoned Gabriel in Hell. Could be Asmodeus just happened to find him there? It's kinda along the same level of stupid of Crowley having Lucifer's meatsuit on ice for years.

That could be a motive for Gabriel agreeing to kill Lucifer?

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It doesn't really make sense since God clearly didn't know that Gabriel was alive, but maybe Lucifer just couldn't bring himself to kill his little brother and instead just put on a good show for the Winchesters and the pagan gods, but imprisoned Gabriel in Hell. Could be Asmodeus just happened to find him there? It's kinda along the same level of stupid of Crowley having Lucifer's meatsuit on ice for years.

That could be a motive for Gabriel agreeing to kill Lucifer?

That would almost be a welcome explanation.  Lucifer couldn't actually kill his brother when it came right down to it, so he locked him away, just like Michael's locked away.  It still think it's nuts, and a total retcon, but it would take less explaining.  

I watched the episode again without commercials, and it was a little bit better, but not much.  There was just way too much Lucifer for my liking.  And the ending with him sitting on the throne was just bizarre.  I have to say that I do so enjoy cranky Cas much better than sad sack Cas.  He seems totally fed up with everything, and it's pretty refreshing.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is that perhaps Gabriel's porn shirt he's wearing?

That could be but I don't think that was what he was wearing when he was killed in s5 AFAIK .

Oh show, you do such squirrelly things that we have to work it out.  Sigh. LOL

[DeeDee79]

I just watched and I actually liked the episode. Lucifer wasn't as annoying as usual, Sister Jo was pretty interesting and TFW was together again. Plus we got fighting and smiting Cas between the last two eps which has been gone for far too long. Downside was Ketch; I hate his smarmy face. Overall since things have been pretty lackluster in the past two seasons I think that I'm just setting my standards really low so I can't be too disappointed when the writing is crap.

Also: 

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

A few things:  first, we don't know that God couldn't find him.  He didn't bother with anything else, so why would he bother looking for a son who wasn't causing any problems?  Ditto Michael and Raphael.  Why would they care if little bro was around or not? 

I agree with this.

Edited February 10, 2018 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

Why wouldn't Lucifer have played the Gabriel card against Amara?

I would have loved having Gabriel back, but in a season when they've already resurrected Castiel, Ketch and Rowena, and Bobby and Kevin and Chuck knows who else in the AU, it's too much.

And damnit, we SAW HIS BURNED UP WINGS.  I completely hate that they've taken that away from us. 

[SueB]

So... you're all saying he WASN'T wearing the puffy pirate shirt because he was hiding in a Seinfeld rerun??  Damn.  That was my #1 theory. (I kid, I kid).

First, I don't think Asmodeus used the MoL time travel spell because of the "blood leads to blood" bit.  I mean, the angels have no real blood.  Of course Crowley's meatsuit wasn't his blood either so there's nothing but LoL canon for getting Gavin anyway.  

But let's look at the state of Gabriel.  First, he DOES look like he's been someplace nasty for a very long time.  Not just "picked up on an errand last week" kinda place.  So, I'm going with he was wearing the contemporary clothes of the day when he was taken prisoner.  And he's got his mouth sewn shut.  He's a freaking Archangel, he doesn't need to say words to make stuff happens, he snaps his fingers.  Yes, there's the "messenger of God" angle that may be at play... but why would sewing his lips together do anything to his power? Unless they just got tired of his yammering.  

I've been mulling over a couple of options (sounds kinda what you've all been saying but with some differences):
- OPTION 1: Death fake out. Gabriel had his own version of witness protection if he was ever killed. Sort of like the Trickster version of a Rowena spell.  He leaves all the indications of dying (burnt wings and all) but he's left some resurrection spell that puts him back to when he thought of the idea a few centuries ago.  Archangels can time travel super far back (see Casifer in the Vessel) and with no extra steps like Cas does. And the Trickster has faked his death before (at least twice?). So if Archangel power sent in back in time to hide, how did he a) get caught and b) avoid screwing up the timeline?  IDK. No one in Hell's heirarchy has that kind of juice IMO.  Only option I see is that his trick came at a cost to his power and he was weak enough to get caught.  And his mouth is shut because someone shoved and "Angel-B-Limp" object in his mouth and sewed it shut.  Like the angelic version of a devil's trap bullet but without the bullet. Sounds witchy to me.  Asmodeus does do witchy but he wouldn't be sitting on Gabriel for centuries and not play that card. That makes no sense at all to me.
- OPTION 2: An AU Gabriel.  Jack's little adventure in rifting up the universe has caused more than one rift incident and this Gabriel came from some other AU (not necessarily Apocalypse World).  Again, someone got the jump on him in the transfer and stuffed his mouth with a "stay put" bag.  But he got messed up in the AU and hasn't been chilling on earth for centuries.
 

[MysteryGuest]

I doubt we'll get any truly satisfying explanation as to how Gabriel's back.  He was dead, but now he's not for plot purposes, so they'll just make something up.  Wouldn't it have just been easier for these writers to come up with some new types of monsters...stronger, more intelligent, whatever, rather than to keep trying to one up the God storyline?  The never-ending "world on the brink of disaster" plots have grown so tired.  God left Sam and Dean as the caretakers of earth while he went off on a family vacation, so the "saving people, hunting things" premise could have continued.  Instead, all he did was leave them to clean up his family mess, and that just makes him still look like an irresponsible dick.  He should have sorted out his children's issues before he left.

For as campy as the Leviathans' story might have been, at least it was an interesting idea.  Just resurrecting all of the old characters from past seasons so we can have Apocalypse Part II is about as lazy as it gets, IMO.  I don't want to go back to season 5.  It appeared that they had set the stage for a revival of the Men of Letters, and a better, smarter way to hunt, but they completely abandoned all of that and just went back to the same boring angel/demon battle.  I'm not sure whether it's Dabb or Singer, or who's responsible for the creative ideas on this show, but man, they need some new blood.  

This post should probably be in one of the bitch threads, but it's just so frustrating to think about what this show could be, if they put even the slightest effort into some creative writing.  I've actually enjoyed the season so far, for the most part, but I don't have a good feeling about how the second half is going to play out.  

[gonzosgirrl]

Here's the thing for me. I'm halfway sure they'll come up with some probably-plausible way that Gabriel is back. But I don't care. In order to accept the fantastical, we (I) need at least some hard and fast rules. In order to invest in danger we need to believe there are consequences. I accepted Mary's resurrection because it was God level shenanigans. Rowena part I, okay, powerful witch, nobody really examined the body, no salting and burning, etc. But now they've gone stupid with it; the inside joke has become a farce. I'm not laughing with them, I'm  laughing at them. 

I maybe could've gotten behind the nonsense if it was because  killing Death really did have cosmic repercussions; nobody stays dead. But nope - they just passed the mantle to Billie. Maybe she's just not very good at it?

Edited February 11, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Here's the thing for me. I'm halfway sure they'll come up with some probably-plausible way that Gabriel is back. But I don't care. In order to accept the fantastical, we (I) need at least some hard and fast rules. In order to invest in danger we need to believe there are consequences. I accepted Mary's resurrection because it was God level shenanigans. Rowena part I, okay, powerful witch, nobody really examined the body, no salting and burning, etc. But now they've gone stupid with it; the inside joke has become a farce. I'm not laughing with them, I'm  laughing at them. 

I maybe could've gotten behind the nonsense if it was because  killing Death really did have cosmic repercussions; nobody stays dead. But nope - they just passed the mantle to Billie. Maybe she's just not very good at it?

 

I've speculated before that maybe this has been a stealthy Lucifer spinoff set up over the past 2 seasons. Gabriel would fit right in with that. It fits the pattern of setting up WS. Episodes not centered on Dean, Sam, nor Cas. Side characters being the focus not TFW.  I only  cared about s5 because  Winchesters and Castiel were necessary to the whole storyline. 

Here TFW IMO serve little purpose. Like seriously this could have all been accomplished without TFW. Maybe the end of SPN is much more nigh than we think. Maybe Danneel is being test driven to join a Lucifer spinoff where he's ruling Heaven with Danneel as his henchwoman/frienemy/weird angel not!lover who he sexily sucks on her grace and makes more angels with her in some weird way. 

Maybe Rowena kills Asmodeaus and takes over as Queen of Hell and ignites a war with Lucifer as part of any potential Lucifer spinoff.

If there is no spinoff for LUcifer then maybe this is all the long way round to getting rid of angels except Cas. Given  Jared has repeatedly stated that  Misha will be with SPN to the end of the show, and unless Misha chooses to leave, then I think Cas stays with SPN and becomes human.  Maybe they are throwing Dick Speight a bone and giving Gabriel a more heroic end by bringing him back to kill Lucifer. 

I just can't imagine that Jensen and Jared can be happy with Dean and Sam being almost irrelevant in their own show for most of this season.  I'm not sure whether Sam's emotional issues will come to light but he sure did side eye Cas when he said Lucifer was alive and he had gone to meet him.

What could be coming is that Sam is at odds with Castiel and he longer trusts him. I hope that's not what happens but I can see Dabb pulling a s6 redux because they are reduxing the whole damn series. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by catrox14

[Pondlass1]

Maybe the final episode will be like the final episode of Seinfeld.  Everyone returns from the dead.

[MysteryGuest]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Maybe the final episode will be like the final episode of Seinfeld.  Everyone returns from the dead.

Is there anyone left who hasn't already been brought back in one form or another?

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I've speculated before that maybe this has been a stealthy Lucifer spinoff set up over the past 2 seasons.

If this is truly part of their plan, then they're stupider than they look.  Isn't there already a Lucifer show out there somewhere?  I can't imagine a spin off, but it's apparent that someone is in love with Mark P.  I don't dislike him, and I think he's made an interesting Lucifer, but there's nothing left to be discovered about him.  Sure, they can ramp up the evil again, and he's good at playing that role, but we already know what his motivation is, and a devil with daddy issues is boring.  He's just not interesting anymore, at least not in my opinion.

They're going to need to fix heaven so the angels can go back to doing what they used to do when they supposedly didn't come to earth for thousands of years, or whatever.  Maybe this is their long arc of giving the angels back their wings.  I can't imagine Lucifer being sincere about anything, but there's always Jack.  

I think Sam and Dean have been very involved in Jack's story, so I have no beef in that regard.  And with the Wayward spin off, we knew the women were going to get a good amount of attention.  But now we need to make some sense out of the rest of this motley cast of characters.  I wonder how Sam Smith feels about her role this season of "woman standing in cage, moaning"?  It's a paycheck, but talk about boring.  

Edited February 11, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Maybe the final episode will be like the final episode of Seinfeld.  Everyone returns from the dead.

Oh. Man. I never thought about this. You might be onto something.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I just can't imagine that Jensen and Jared can be happy with Dean and Sam being almost irrelevant in their own show for most of this season.  I'm not sure whether Sam's emotional issues will come to light but he sure did side eye Cas when he said Lucifer was alive and he had gone to meet him.

 

What could be coming is that Sam is at odds with Castiel and he longer trusts him. I hope that's not what happens but I can see Dabb pulling a s6 redux because they are reduxing the whole damn series. 

 

Quoting myself for reasons.

TBF, Dean and Sam did have the grief and Jack things respectively which were mostly dealt with in 13.1 and 13.2 and even that had a heavy dose of Lucifer. Dean and Sam had the essentially tag discussion of Jack and Dean's anger in 13.3 which carried into 13.4. I will say that 13.5 was very much about Dean's deep depression but as soon as Cas was back for cowboy fun and Jack sadness which went back to Lucifer again in the AW, then a silly ep with a heist, then WS arcs for 3.8 to 3.11, the silly love spell which was all about Rowena's return and Lucifer getting out of Hell. Cas IMO was tangential to that  and now 13.13 which was the Lucifer show.

Edited February 11, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

think Sam and Dean have been very involved in Jack's story, so I have no beef in that regard.  And with the Wayward spin off, we knew the women were going to get a good amount of attention.  But now we need to make some sense out of the rest of this motley cast of characters.  I wonder how Sam Smith feels about her role this season of "woman standing in cage, moaning"?  It's a paycheck, but talk about boring.  

They were involved but the story is not about them. That's my point. The story is about Lucifer and his son. It's not even really about Castiel either. IMO, Dabb has been clever about putting Dean and Sam in the middle of Lucifer's SL and to set up WS but it's not about them. It's about how they react to others versus others reacting to them. The story is no longer about the Winchesters and even if WS rescued them they were a plot device IMO to keep the masses from revolting but THEY are not the story.

  They have become supporting players to everyone else's story.  And Castiel is a plot device as much as anything. He's serving the role of the stepdad but it's really about how Lucifer is reacting to Jack's status. As soon as the show gave Lucifer a son, no matter if Jack claims Castiel as his father, it's still about Lucifer and his son. Castiel is tangential IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

They were involved but the story is not about them. That's my point. The story is about Lucifer and his son. It's not even really about Castiel either. IMO, Dabb has been clever about putting Dean and Sam in the middle of Lucifer's SL and to set up WS but it's not about them. It's about how they react to others versus others reacting to them.

After 13 years, I think this was inevitable.  There isn't much left to discover about Sam and Dean, either.  We know who they are, so the stories come from how they react to the world(s) and characters around them.  Cas is much the same.  His story has also been told, so now it's about where they go from here.  I personally don't think that revisiting where they've been is all that exciting.  I don't want or need to revisit either brothers time in Hell.  It's part of who they are, but it shouldn't be all that they are.  If they keep dragging us back, whether by suddenly remembering that Dean went to Hell, and his blood is now magic somehow, or how Sam evidently hasn't slept in 8 years because he saw Lucifer's "true face", I'm going to feel cheated.  I personally want them to move forward.  If I were Sam or Dean, I'd have been ready to throw the towel in a long time ago.  They apparently weren't chosen to protect the earth, they were chosen to fight the same damn battle over and over and over again.  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

After 13 years, I think this was inevitable.  There isn't much left to discover about Sam and Dean, either.  We know who they are, so the stories come from how they react to the world(s) and characters around them.  Cas is much the same.  His story has also been told, so now it's about where they go from here.  I personally don't think that revisiting where they've been is all that exciting.  I don't want or need to revisit either brothers time in Hell.  It's part of who they are, but it shouldn't be all that they are.  If they keep dragging us back, whether by suddenly remembering that Dean went to Hell, and his blood is now magic somehow, or how Sam evidently hasn't slept in 8 years because he saw Lucifer's "true face", I'm going to feel cheated.  I personally want them to move forward.  If I were Sam or Dean, I'd have been ready to throw the towel in a long time ago.  They apparently weren't chosen to protect the earth, they were chosen to fight the same damn battle over and over and over again.  

And this is where we completely part company.  I'll take my reply to the all seasons thread.

[bozodegama]

All i know is that I’m hoping it’s our Gabriel, not au Gabriel. And that we get at least one casa erotica joke, or even if he just calls someone, “bucko” at least once.   I have really low standards, i guess.

[flyinghigh]

After reading some of the comments, I believe I have company. This episode was so all over the place and beyond stupid. When I first watched it I did not know how to respond. The episode felt so boring. So confusing. I was wondering - what have I just watched???

There is so much that happened- Luci-Cas front, Ketch, Asmodeous, Sister Jo - another angel, and then there is Jack and Mary, and Michael somewhere and AU with Bobby and Kevin Tran. Too many story lines - which I believe will meet somewhere. Someday. 

Let me take one at a time - 

Luci-Cas - they escape, wound or kill each other (still confused) and then both are whole again. Then they are looking for each other, Find each other-and something again happens. (Don't Judge - I watched it once - three days ago. Don't feel like watching it again.)

Sister Jo - was waiting for Danneel's appearance - and what did we get - sexual overtones between her and Luci - ewwwwww. And no, she did not leave a lasting impression. As a minor angel - she was a tiny bit better than all other angels still on the show, except Cas of course.

Ketch - Die die and then burn and then ashes spread all over the atlantic. Lets see how he escapes that.

Cas - I have stopped trying to understand Cas altogether - I want Cas with some Mojo but then consistency has to be there - I spent time trying to figure out which Cas we have on screen - Sam and Dean's angel, powerless Cas, Empty Cas, shape-shifter Cas, or some smart Cas who can put Ketch to sleep with a flick of his wrist,  or some new Cas I am not aware of.

Sam and Dean - after fighting demons and angels and Knights of Hell and Darkness and everything in between - one would think they are have learned something - nope. They did not have much to do anyways. 

Also there is this problem of angle grace - Ho much does Luci need - what kind of power does he have with limited grace, How much power does Luci have at present? Cas's grace was also partially used by metatron to throw angels from heaven - how much grace does Cas have? - if Sister Jo is sharing her grace, how much power is left with her? 

And then there is Gabriel - surprise for sure - now the question is how was Asmodeous able to get his hands on Gabriel?

Maybe I should make an effort to see this episode again. 

[Castiels Cat]

Hey y'all! I have been lurking on and off since imbd went silent.  Finally decided to speak.

I have not been surprised very much since Singer/Dabb took over.  The writing went downhill.  Many episodes feel meh.   Loads of LOL plotting and LOL canon.  However I have been pleasantly surprised by the things that they have done very well. 

I tend to see things big picture.  I tend to be like the proverbial Cassandra in that I sometimes see things very early on.  For instance I wrote a review of the season 11 premiere which predicted that Amara was not a typical big bad, rather she was misunderstood, justifiably angry and needed God to acknowledge her anger and apologize.  It was obvious to me that she would rage,  God would finally apologize in too little too late fashion, more rage then Dean would give a pretty speech to Amara that would do the trick, probably in a garden. Maybe I am a little bit psychic but i tend to think that the show excels at subtext and foreshadowing in a way that allows me to identify some key things.

 

After the seadon 12 premiere I most likely drove folks nuts with my talk of Apocalypse.  It was obvious to me that we on the road to another Apocalypse like that which drove the first 5 years... a different Apocalypse.  The hints were in the bones of the season and the rebooted characterizations and tropes.  Instead of John we had Mary.  Dean was back to being edgy and rough around the edges.  Sam was back to being sensitive. Cas was badass.  Mary shifted a bit info Sam's former character tropes.  She was the one that ran away.   She was the one working with the enemy.  She was the one corrupted by the enemy.  She was the one that pushed Lucifer into the rift after being brought back by Dean. And she was the one that Dean worried about and was so desperate to save that he risked himself repeatedly.

Storylines and character arcs were repeated and often subverted.  Cas betrays Dean choosing first heaven then Jack.  Crowley has Dean's back and Dean trusts him.  There is a powerful child who is part angel rather than part demon.  A powerful weapon actually works on Lucifer.

There are many shout outs.  The Colt! The Michael painting!  The Cage!  Gabriel! Lots of demon shenanigans and mean angels.

I don't see see these thimgs  as poor wfitimv because they have run out of ideas.  I see them as deliberate choices hinting to us that we are heading to the Apocalypse again but it will be different.

Having an episide in which Dean's blood is important highlights both his role as the righteous man and Michael's sword. Having Dean carefully pick up the broken pieces of Michael's lance reminds me that Dean is Michael 's true vessel in the Superverse and only Michael can fix it. Resurrecting Rowena means that our Michael can be released. Frankly that is the only logical reason for her to be brought into the story now.  Sam finally verbally admitting his fear of Lucifer has to happen before Sam might be forced to say yes to help save our universe.  And yes the face talk is stolen from NBC's Lucifer however Sam needed to talk about his fear in order for us to appreciate his heroic sacrifice when the time comes.

Yeah. I totally think we are finally getting Dean!Michael.  It made perfect sense for Dean to say no in season 5.  He did not want to kill Sam.  He did not want people to die.   He wanted to control his own destiny.  Times have changed.

He would be fighting AU!Michael who tortured his mother and trying to being the Apocalypse here.  His desperation to save Mary, very apparent last season, flamed out this season in a big way.  Dean's reckless acts to save others typically only involve himself.  He never knowingly risks others.

This time Dean held a gun to an innocent's head and forced her to do something that put the entire world at risk.  It might have been Sam's idea and Jack's quest and power that lead the way, however Dean's manic desperation to save his mother and Dean's brute force were the literal triggers.  Dean will have fix it because he owns it. I am pretty sure Bilie' s cryptic comments to Dean referenced the fact that Dean was needed to save our world from the AU APOCALYPSE because he was Michael's sword and only Michael and his repaired lance can defeat the psychotic militaristic AU Michael.  I had been talking Dean!Michael since early last season for reasons... however Billie's little speech made me SQUEE.  

And Sam/Lucifer will be fighting by his side.  The last few episodes have convinced me of this. And Lucifer will heal faster inside Sam.  When AU Michael comes a knocking Lucifer will seek out Sam.

A part of me thinks AU Michael will sneak in inside Mary.  Jack seems unable to see angels and demons the way an angel can.  It is a maximum angst situation and they did drop all of those hints last season that suggested something bad would end up inside Mary.  Also this season has been rife with hidden identities, either using masks or wearing another's appearance, and there have been several episodes in which male supernatural  characters fool or use women.

Yeah... I know Cas and the oily goo god... Cas seems off... Shrugs.  I don't know what to do with that.  OGG seems like another convenient way for somebody to possibly come back....someday...maybe.  I found that all to be really weird.

My guess is that Gabriel is AU Gabriel.  He looks like he was tortured and that smacks of AU Michael.  Maybe the rift reopened temporarily from that world. That is the simplest explanation. I see him as nothing more than a harbinger of the pending Apocalypse at this point.  There is no way Lucifer won't be fighting AU!Michael here especially now that he has an army of his own.  If Lucifer dies he will die fighting AU!Michael.

Colonel Foghorn Leghorn Sanders is a change of pace...   He feels like needless busy work in an already crowded season.

Rowena removed warding, she cut her throat releasing her witch essence she said yes repeatedly after which we cut go a close-up of her lit face and blue eyes.  It sure looked to me like she is now a vessel and she needed go remove the warding and her magic essence to allow the angel access to her now human form.  If she was sincere in her fear of Lucifer and the trauma of  dying by him she may have gone all in.  Previously birth order seemed to connote relative strength in absence of upgrades.  Ergo Michael was stronger than Lucifer who was stronger than Gabriel.

My best guess is that she now houses Michael temporarily.   He is the only archangel that is stronger than Lucifer.  This is probably a temporary situation.  Her only objective is to kill Lucifer.  It is the only way for her to be safe. She may even know that Dean is his endgame.  Per season 11 Rowena could transfer Michael out of the cage to a holding cell however he needed a vessel to exit the holding cell. She is the vessel.  She probably was also the holding cell and she needed to remove both the warding and her magic for him to be able to manifest.   

At some point Michael and Lucifer will make nice to fight AU Michael.  At least that is where things seem to be heading.  Both will want their true vessels for the fight.  They will defeat the AU Apocalypse.  If Michael has become unstable and/or if Asmodeus achieves his lifelong goal of releasing those evil guys,with the bad manicures we go from one true Apocalypse to the next.

I miss Crowley..  I miss Carver.  I really miss Kim Manners.

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Sam/Lucifer will be fighting by his side.  The last few episodes have convinced me of this. And Lucifer will heal faster inside Sam.  When AU Michael comes a knocking Lucifer will seek out Sam.

Didn't Crowley make it so Lucifer is now permanently stuck inside his Nick suit? 

Edited February 13, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Didn't Crowley make it so Lucifer is now permanently stuck inside his Nick suit? 

That's what's been said by Crowley and Lucifer. And it seems if he could have gotten out of it he would have, except you know for Mark Pellegrino reasons. 

[ukgirl71]

Welcome Castiel's Cat, and thanks for such a detailed and interesting interpretation!

[SueB]

@Castiels Cat At Last! The missing species has joined the board.  I knew we were missing a species!  

Seriously though, interesting read.  I think  you are right that they are definitely setting up the chess pieces this season. I don't know who will be doing what but it's all leading to something big by the end of the season. And now "Gabriel" is on the board.  So, it's getting very interesting.  

Edited February 13, 2018 by SueB

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's what's been said by Crowley and Lucifer. And it seems if he could have gotten out of it he would have, except you know for Mark Pellegrino reasons. 

Why would he have gotten out of it?  Crowley also strengthened it so it's as good as any other meatsuit. Plus, Nick is dead, so he doesn't have anybody bothering him inside his head.  I actually think since he broke Crowley's control he could get out.  Just don't know why he would for the reasons I've stated. 

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Why would he have gotten out of it?  Crowley also strengthened it so it's as good as any other meatsuit. Plus, Nick is dead, so he doesn't have anybody bothering him inside his head.  I actually think since he broke Crowley's control he could get out.  Just don't know why he would for the reasons I've stated. 

But isn't there still the One True Vessel aspect? Or did that end with the swan dive? It seems Dean's relationship to Michael isn't valid any more, so maybe Sam's/Lucifer isn't either.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But isn't there still the One True Vessel aspect? Or did that end with the swan dive? It seems Dean's relationship to Michael isn't valid any more, so maybe Sam's/Lucifer isn't either.

I think the "one true vessel" just means it's the strongest. And, actually even Michael told Dean that he was his true vessel, but not his only one, when he possessed John.  So, as long as Nick's vessel is strong enough to hold Lucifer, he'd be fine with it.  And, also, (I know I'm getting run-onny), yes, I think the Sam/Dean thing was only really important for the Armageddon fight between two brothers.  Since that's not happening any more, any old vessel that won't fall apart is fine.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Why would he have gotten out of it?  Crowley also strengthened it so it's as good as any other meatsuit. Plus, Nick is dead, so he doesn't have anybody bothering him inside his head.  I actually think since he broke Crowley's control he could get out.  Just don't know why he would for the reasons I've stated. 

I'm not so sure he could get out of it. Crowley's control over Lucifer was independent of what he did to both improve and lock Lucifer in the Nick suit. Crowley said they studied the cage and used whatever kept him imprisoned there on the vessel so that he would be forever locked inside Nick.  I think it was done so that they could make the true vessel ideas of S5 irrelevant; Why would he even try to vacate Nick, even if he could? At this point, possessing Sam again is probably more hassle than it's worth and he has a perfectly good vessel and no one fighting him for control of it. Seems like there would be no advantage to Lucifer wanting to possess Sam at this point.

Now Micheal/Dean, that's a different story. And, that's why I believe we will never see our universe Micheal again. Unless Crowley--or someone else--also found a Micheal vessel, enhanced it and forced Micheal into it so that it would be pointless for him to want to possess Dean again, I expect he will stay useless in the cage. Plus, I don't think they want to deal with the Adam issue either. But, that's a separate problem from the vessel issue.

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think the "one true vessel" just means it's the strongest. And, actually even Michael told Dean that he was his true vessel, but not his only one, when he possessed John.  So, as long as Nick's vessel is strong enough to hold Lucifer, he'd be fine with it.  And, also, (I know I'm getting run-onny), yes, I think the Sam/Dean thing was only really important for the Armageddon fight between two brothers.  Since that's not happening any more, any old vessel that won't fall apart is fine.

Getting run-onny-er :)... But Lucifer already knows he's not strong enough to fight AU Michael - wouldn't it make sense* for him to want to be his strongest when he knows AUM is trying to make his way to our world?

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it was done so that they could make the true vessel ideas of S5 irrelevant; Why would he even try to vacate Nick, even if he could? At this point, possessing Sam again is probably more hassle than it's worth and he has a perfectly good vessel and no one fighting him for control of it. Seems like there would be no advantage to Lucifer wanting to possess Sam at this point.

That was kind of my main point. It doesn't matter if he can get out of it or not.  He wouldn't really have a reason to want to.

[Pondlass1]

I am hoping they don't go the possession route again. (Unless it's Dean as Michael)

Michael the Archangel will defend us in battle. He will be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.

Dean is so worthy.  But not holding my breath.  I do believe it's all coming to a head with some kind of almighty battle though.  It might blow the budget so that season 14 is a shortened one.

[Katy M]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Getting run-onny-er :)... But Lucifer already knows he's not strong enough to fight AU Michael - wouldn't it make sense* for him to want to be his strongest when he knows AUM is trying to make his way to our world?

Does the vessel itself make an angel much stronger, assuming that it's not a "bad" vessel and making him weaker?  I think Lucifer wasn't strong enough to fight Michael because Michael is stronger.  Nothing to do with vessels.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Does the vessel itself make an angel much stronger, assuming that it's not a "bad" vessel and making him weaker?  I think Lucifer wasn't strong enough to fight Michael because Michael is stronger.  Nothing to do with vessels.

Lucifer (in Sam) seemed to think he would have no trouble defeating Michael (in Dean or Adam) in the Armageddon battle - so... yes?

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Why would he have gotten out of it?  Crowley also strengthened it so it's as good as any other meatsuit. Plus, Nick is dead, so he doesn't have anybody bothering him inside his head.  I actually think since he broke Crowley's control he could get out.  Just don't know why he would for the reasons I've stated. 

It seems to me, other than Lucifer's own ego and hubris, (and the real world answer of the show's obsession with Mark Pellegrino playing Lucifer), if he's trying to remain hidden from Dean and Sam, which maybe he's not, wouldn't it behoove him to change meatsuits from time to time? I mean he could just keep the Nicksuit on ice himself like Crowley did.

Now that I think about it, AU Michael shouldn't have been able cut into the Nicksuit, much less siphon his grace if the point was to keep Lucifer in the Nicksuit. Cas shouldn't have even been able to stab through the Nicksuit in 12.23.

As an aside, I have never understood why, if angels can heal each other and their own meatsuits, why can't they heal a meatsuit from the inside out( oh wait, Gadreel did) other than plot contrivance necessary for Sam to be Lucifer's only true vessel, which was undone when they had Sam drink demon blood so he could withstand it longer...

Oh show.