S13.E12: Various and Sundry Villains

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

Looking at the Latin:

Google Translate:
 

But Google translate is not great, and frankly, I'm not sure their Latin is spot on either. The key phrase: Remitte vim meam. Is debateable IMO.
Remitte: send back, remit, throw back, relax, diminish
vim: force
Meam: I or my

Which COULD be translated into:  Take my force   (note 'vis' = strength (sg. only), force, power, might, violence)

And she then she cuts her throat and out slips something that LOOKS like grace. COULD be her natural magic (the purple and all)?

So, between the visuals, I'd say she did a spell to be invicible but she's paid a price -- like her natural magic is her collateral? Or her soul (but it wasn't white)? 

Wasn't the purple used by Crowley for that spell in Executioner's Song and then in Twigs and Tiwn and Tasha Banes  the Stick Witches were powered up with a purple color. I'm thinking Rowena put her power into one of those stick dolls and that's how she survived and now she reanimated herself with some grace that she stole from someone. That's my guess. lso, Max's eyes flashed purple when he set Alicia on fire. So maybe that purple color is the grace of a natural witch which Max was and the power from Not!Ezra Moore witch was also purple.

Also, I'm really still pissed about the Banes twins. Max was awesome. I want him back. A

Edited February 3, 2018 by catrox14

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wasn't the purple used by Crowley for that spell in Executioner's Song and then in Twigs and Tiwn and Tasha Banes  the Stick Witches were powered up with a purple color. I'm thinking Rowena put her power into one of those stick dolls and that's how she survived and now she reanimated herself with some grace that she stole from someone. That's my guess. lso, Max's eyes flashed purple when he set Alicia on fire. So maybe that purple color is the grace of a natural witch which Max was and the power from Not!Ezra Moore witch was also purple.

Also, I'm really still pissed about the Banes twins. Max was awesome. I want him back. A

I also think it was witch power.  And it DID seem like she was breaking something that was "binding" her.  Is it possible she was actually telling the truth and she had been bound by the Grand Coven in some way?  Maybe?  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I also think it was witch power.  And it DID seem like she was breaking something that was "binding" her.  Is it possible she was actually telling the truth and she had been bound by the Grand Coven in some way?  Maybe?  

The best manipulators/liars throw in as much truth as possible.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

I also think it was witch power.  And it DID seem like she was breaking something that was "binding" her.  Is it possible she was actually telling the truth and she had been bound by the Grand Coven in some way?  Maybe?  

This is what I thought. That's why she said she wanted the book. 

[catrox14]

52 minutes ago, SueB said:

I also think it was witch power.  And it DID seem like she was breaking something that was "binding" her.  Is it possible she was actually telling the truth and she had been bound by the Grand Coven in some way?  Maybe?  

I don't know. With Rowena you never know what's true and what isn't.   I felt like her reaction to Crowley's  death was WAY over the top. She was more than happy to punish him by killing Gavin.  Maybe Crowley's spell that supposedly closed the rift did something like trap Rowena. Maybe Crowley did it to save her from Lucifer? I dunno.

[sarthaz]

I enjoyed parts of this, particularly the BM scene with Sam and Rowena, but I was totally distracted by the 30-35-yr-old actress behaving and dressing like a teenager. It just felt weird. The sucky acting didn’t help. 

[roctavia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is what I thought. That's why she said she wanted the book. 

Yes, the spell was to unbind her powers so she could be even more powerful. They showed the rings around her breaking as she finished the spell, so I think she just got powered up even more than before/ lost the limitations that the grand coven had put on her, which is why that spell is so dangerous and not something that Sam could make use of like others have speculated.  I'm sure she picked the page in the book to rip out and Sam let her. 

 

I also don't buy that she was all that traumatized by her death or seeing Lucifer's face (if she saw it at all) I think she was playing Sam big time in the car to get to that spell. She had too many shady looks when he turned away for me to believe she was truly being honest and 'just' afraid of Lucifer/feeling helpless. She already had a ton of power. I could see her turning into the future super powered big bad. 

I didn't mind the stuff with Dean, the love spell was corny but the boys figured it out quickly instead of schmoopy Dean for an hour. He was also more than ready to take them down. I didn't think he was actually offended by being beaten up by a girl, it just fit with the conversation they were having at the time about hightlights of the evening. And Dean fully agreed with Sam that they got beaten up by girls all the time. It seemed more like just a funny thing to say to lighten the mood even if Dean didn't really mean it in a sexist way... it's that thoughtless and ingrained attitude that isn't meant to do harm... but yes if you think about it was not the best thing to say.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

So, between the visuals, I'd say she did a spell to be invicible but she's paid a price -- like her natural magic is her collateral? Or her soul (but it wasn't white)? 

That's what I figured. There's always a counteraction in magic. So, she broke her binds, but she had to give up some of her own natural power in order to work the spell. So, yeah, I expect she's somewhat invincible, but maybe not quite as powerful as she was before.

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know. With Rowena you never know what's true and what isn't.   I felt like her reaction to Crowley's  death was WAY over the top. She was more than happy to punish him by killing Gavin.  

Well, I'm sure some of it was for effect, but Crowley's death took her by surprise. She may have hated him and wanted to punish him, but he was her son, after all. But, yeah, I figure her reaction was largely for Winchester effect. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I'm sure some of it was for effect, but Crowley's death took her by surprise. She may have hated him and wanted to punish him, but he was her son, after all. But, yeah, I figure her reaction was largely for Winchester effect. 

I think if she's really upset that he's dead, it's because she had a plan that she needed him for.

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I'm sure some of it was for effect, but Crowley's death took her by surprise. She may have hated him and wanted to punish him, but he was her son, after all.

If I remember right, she had her back to the Winchester’s and looked surprised and upset. Yeah, they hated each other but had been family for hundreds of years. Think of people who had horrible relationships with their mother or father yet his/her death knocks them for a loop. Doesn’t mean Rowena is a nice person all of a sudden. 

[companionenvy]

8 minutes ago, auntvi said:

If I remember right, she had her back to the Winchester’s and looked surprised and upset. Yeah, they hated each other but had been family for hundreds of years. Think of people who had horrible relationships with their mother or father yet his/her death knocks them for a loop. Doesn’t mean Rowena is a nice person all of a sudden. 

Which I would buy except for the fact that Rowena has tried to kill Crowley, and cheerfully participated in sending her own grandson to his death out of spite. 

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, auntvi said:

If I remember right, she had her back to the Winchester’s and looked surprised and upset. Yeah, they hated each other but had been family for hundreds of years. Think of people who had horrible relationships with their mother or father yet his/her death knocks them for a loop. Doesn’t mean Rowena is a nice person all of a sudden. 

I don't buy her sadness.  I buy her anger because whatever she needed from him she can't get now. IMO it was better for her to get what she wanted from the Winchesters by pretending to be sad and changed. To commiserate with them considering they said he sacrificed himself for them.  To "bond" with Sam over this new thing that seeing Lucifer's face causes so much trauma that she wanted a spell to get over the PTSD.  Sam somehow just managed to shove that away all this time? That's some remarkable coping. None of this makes much sense IMO.

I honestly can't understand why Lucifer would have shown her his true face. Wouldn't that make him vulnerable to her figuring out a way to defeat him outside of a vessel. And conveniently he's still trapped in his meatsuit right?

Why was Lucifer even bothering with her at the end of s12, when his goal was finding his spawn. Did he think she would help him find him? And she refused so he killed her?

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I honestly can't understand why Lucifer would have shown her his true face. Wouldn't that make him vulnerable to her figuring out a way to defeat him outside of a vessel. And conveniently he's still trapped in his meatsuit right?

Maybe when he gets extra mad, it just shows.  He was killing her at the time, so he probably wasn't worried about any help it would be to her, if it would at all.  And, besides, the one thing we know about Lucifer is that he is arrogant.  

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why was Lucifer even bothering with her at the end of s12, when his goal was finding his spawn. Did he think she would help him find him? And she refused so he killed her?

She was the only one who knew how to open the cage , and he said he killed her because he can't raise his son from a jail cell.  And that is why Sam and Dean were calling her when they found out she was dead.  I mean "dead."

[SueB]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Which I would buy except for the fact that Rowena has tried to kill Crowley, and cheerfully participated in sending her own grandson to his death out of spite. 

Legit. She cared nothing for Gavin.  OTOH, she was paying back Crowley for killing the child SHE loved (Oscar).  

So, IMO, Rowena is a complicated villain.  She's a baddy but she's had moments that show me she is not just playing every angle.

Examples of "unguarded" moments where we see how Rowena is thiking where it seems clear she's not play-acting for the audience:
- After her first death, she tried to go find a rich Republican and settle down and play tennis.  She failed at it because she didn't actually have any tender feelings to even fake a bit.  Then Crowley pulled her back in and she went off to make cash by cheating at cards.  So, the first death by Lucifer IMO made an impact.
- She told Cas and Crowley that if they captured Lucifer, she'd put him back in the box.  Yes, it was to her benefit and they knew it, but she was playing 'team ball' without indications of any additional motivation.
- She performed her part of the spell in LOTUS without any fuss or extras.  It was Crowley who's thirst for revenged screwed the pooch.
- She got a faceful of power in her interactions w/ Amara and God and she was ready to hightail it to ancient Greece. But she also helped (initially reluctantly) to stop the end of the universe (again, ulterior motives pretty much on display but she was a fair dealer while doing it).
- She bailed out Dean in "Regarding Dean" and while yes, she wanted the book, she stuck to her part of the deal.  Further, during that conversation, we got one of those narrrative techniques where we could hear her perspective without consequences (she thinks) of being truthful. Where she recognized that power (her ultimate goal) did not fix Amara and God.
- And then she had a gruesome death at the hands of Lucifer. Which took 10 months to recover from.  I can't imagine even cold-hearted Rowena being imune to that event.

So, I totally believe she traumatized post Lucifer smashing her to bits. And that during her lengthy recovery she only wanted to find a way to protect herself from that again.  Because as far as she knew Lucifer was on the loose and she STILL represented a threat to him.  I think she heard Crowley was dead before showing up but presumed he had somehow survived (because he was a survivor like her).  In the conversation w/ Sam and Dean at the Bunker, I think she was truly pissed Crowley died a "hero". And I think she was truly trying to get the image of Lucifer's true face out of her mind.   

So, for this episode:
- I think she thought she could avoid the Winchesters and get the book to give her power..
- I think she was legit traumatized by Lucifer and really doesn't want to dwell on him.
- I think she's actually upset Crowley was dead and that he died a "hero".
- I think she IS haunted by Lucifer's true face. 
- I think she's paid a price to get that power (for safety now, not just for 'take over the world' crap) and it could bite her in the ass ultimately. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe when he gets extra mad, it just shows.  He was killing her at the time, so he probably wasn't worried about any help it would be to her, if it would at all.  And, besides, the one thing we know about Lucifer is that he is arrogant.

If he's  locked into his meatsuit how could his true face come out? Rage or no.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If he's  locked into his meatsuit how could his true face come out? Rage or no.

And he already killed her once. Why would he assume she couldn't resurrect from this just because he burned her? Or are we going with burning witches at the stake lore now? Oh, Show.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

nd then she had a gruesome death at the hands of Lucifer. Which took 10 months to recover from.  I can't imagine even cold-hearted Rowena being imune to that event.

If she is to be believed that it was her that was killed and  not her Twig Witch doppelganger. I'm not convinced that anything she says is 100% true. She is just like Crowley. She tells enough to get what she wants and if she overreaches she charts a new course.

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If he's  locked into his meatsuit how could his true face come out? Rage or no.

It wouldn't come out, exactly, but Rowena's a witch, so not your typical person, so perhaps his rage, or energy, or whatever, would amp it up just enough so that Rowena would see past the meatsuit.  Or, it could be that when she died, she entered the veil and therefore could see him clearly.

 

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he already killed her once. Why would he assume she couldn't resurrect from this just because he burned her? Or are we going with burning witches at the stake lore now? Oh, Show.

WEll, on the show, burning bodies has had a more "permanent death" effect.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Katy M

[Quark]

Love that Rowena came back and intrigued by what the blue eyes mean. Maybe she isn't a witch anymore? She's ascended in some way.

Whatever happens, I hope she is the one that destroys Lucifer once and for all.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

WEll, on the show, burning bodies has had a more "permanent death" effect.

Uhhuh. Kinda like showing an angel's burned up wings. :)

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Katy M said:

wouldn't come out, exactly, but Rowena's a witch, so not your typical person, so perhaps his rage, or energy, or whatever, would amp it up just enough so that Rowena would see past the meatsuit.  Or, it could be that when she died, she entered the veil and therefore could see him cle

 

. She said he showed it to her which I take to mean it was intentional vs  her seeing it by happenstance. That's what I don't get how he could have done that. And supposing it was rage, wouldn't he use his rage to up his powers when he went after TFW?

[shoetingstar]

On 2/1/2018 at 10:27 PM, catrox14 said:

I'm sorry but those actresses were BAD. They were not good. If they were playing "valley girls" they didn't do it well at all. Terribad acting.

OMG. They were awful. I'm sorry. I just remember them as hair and teeth. Not likable at all. Casting failed this time. That "fight" with them and the boy was in now way believable. I wonder if they had casted less stereotypical "pretty/hot" (putting in quotes because this is relative), blonde/thin/tall, etc., how that would have effected the dynamic. They were going for a Victoria Secret Model look, I guess.  How about if they were "plain" (also relative), or just normal "cute" but powerful and well-acted - would have been a more interesting episode. I guess that could have backfired on Dean, however. 

Why was the younger one wearing MOM Jeans? And what's with killing people out in the open in parking lots? They were going to try to off Dean in broad day light! Who does that? Oh and Dean had more chemistry with the sporting goods Cashier than the Sister Witch.  Is it bad that I enjoyed how Rowena made them kill each other lol? #ImBeingPetty&Don'tCare

But YEAH For Cas getting some wins and not being 1-tortured, or 2-emasculated, or 3-Demeaned by fellow Angels that are so much like demons I can't tell the difference anymore. 

And yeah, the Sam and Rowena heart to heart was a total surprised, a welcome one. I can't help but love Rowena in spite of her misdeeds.

Did anyone else thought Dean would remember that little connection he and Rowena had from the episode when he'd lost his memory? I could have sworn he had a bit of recognition at the end of that episode. I guess that would be too much continuity for the likes of this show, huh?

Edited February 3, 2018 by shoetingstar

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

Oh and Dean had more chemistry with the sporting goods Cashier than the Sister Witch.  Is it bad that I enjoyed how Rowena made them kill each other lol? #ImBeingPetty&Don'tCare

I seriously was kind of hoping Dean was gonna ask for her number.  LOL. They had a great dynamic. 

38 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

recognition at the end of that episode. I guess that would be too much continuity for the likes of this show, huh?

I thought Dean remembered everything and he just lied about it. I don't think he would bring it up now unless it benefited him to use it against her in some way :)

[bozodegama]

Those two girl witches were terrible actresses, i agree.  The only redeeming factor was one girl had a Steve Miller Band t shirt.  That was cool although I’m not sure how a 23 year,old girl even knows who Steve Miller is (the rock singer not the super crazy, racist Trump flunky).  Pretty bad episode, i didn’t even watch it twice..  Let’s hope it gets better.  

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I’m not sure how a 23 year,old girl even knows who Steve Miller is (the rock singer not the super crazy, racist Trump flunky)

My 15-year-old niece has a very similar T-shirt. Classic rock has made a resurgence over the last 10-15 years.

[SueB]

52 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My 15-year-old niece has a very similar T-shirt. Classic rock has made a resurgence over the last 10-15 years.

I intend to give full credit to Supernatural for that.  That and the people who loved that music (me included) are old enough to have cash and spend it on stuff. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I was looking at the ending segment for another reason and just noticed that Dean is icing his knee/leg while sitting talking with Sam. Nice touch!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was looking at the ending segment for another reason and just noticed that Dean is icing his knee/leg while sitting talking with Sam. Nice touch!

Sadly, he doesn't have Cas there to heal him again :(.  And he would take the healing this time since he doesn't think he deserved that injury, which is good!

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Sadly, he doesn't have Cas there to heal him again :(.  And he would take the healing this time since he doesn't think he deserved that injury, which is good!

When they do meet up, I think this would be a good test as to whether Cas is really Cas, or Empty!Cas, because our Cas would know that Dean is injured and offer to fix him up. That little satisfied grin when Lucifer was getting pissed off in the cell really didn't strike me as something Cas would do - not even 'learned from my mistakes and 105% done with you' Castiel.

I just enjoyed the detail, because outside of fanfic, we don't often see them dealing with the non-life threatening injuries they get. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

When they do meet up, I think this would be a good test as to whether Cas is really Cas, or Empty!Cas, because our Cas would know that Dean is injured and offer to fix him up. That little satisfied grin when Lucifer was getting pissed off in the cell really didn't strike me as something Cas would do - not even 'learned from my mistakes and 105% done with you' Castiel.

Back in 12.23, I was thinking something wasn't right with Cas then. He was so annoyed at the idea of healing Dean vs the kindness he showed him when he healed him in The Future, plus it glowed gold which I don't think was the case before. So I still wonder if the Cas that healed Dean in 12.23 was our Cas and if the Cas was killed was our Cas. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop on Dean with this. :(

Edited February 5, 2018 by catrox14

[Icarus]

I have only just been able to watch this episode (family staying!), as with most episodes this season I enjoyed quite a lot of it. Liked the Cas and Lucifer scenes, so much better than much we have seen and I agree with some others that Cas does seem “more” than we have had previously.

Loved having Rowena back, I loathed her when first introduced but like others (i.e. Misha Collins and Mark Shepherd) she brings so much to the character that I really like her and am so pleased she is back. Ok so Dean was fooled and they both got beaten up by the lady witches, I don't have a problem with that and enjoyed it in the main. Not sure at all though that I can work with the Sam depression bit, just did not seem organic to me, I have read that there might have been a switch between this episode and the last one, but still does not really work for me, seems OOC but then so much does!!! As a very low level comment – loved the close ups of both Jensen and Jared!

[DittyDotDot]

From the spoilers thread, but there are no spoilers...

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Whether it's an actual grotesque face, the person looking out his "true face" and seeing their own internal monstrous side, or they see Lucifer's own inner The Darkness, or however it manifests, is irrelevant. That was never my point. My point is that it was NOT a factor that existed until now but is apparently a pretty big deal such that Rowena claims it frightened her to the point that she never wants to think of it again, followed by Sam saying 'Yeah, I know what you mean'.  My point, is that it's a retcon because it significantly reframes Sam's Hell experience. And I can't see them introducing it just to blow it off as a plot device for Rowena. 

My point is that I don't think the trauma is the face itself, but is the face Sam and Rowena has put on the trauma; it's the image in which they relive their trauma through. They may not even be seeing the same face.

For instance, a rape survivor might relive their trauma through a smell or a particular sound. But the smell or the sound isn't the actual trauma, it's the trigger.

That's what I mean that I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally. It seems standard survivor's trauma to me and not about the face itself. So, I fail to see how it re-frames Sam's Hell time at all. Seems to just reinforce what we've been told before. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

Eh. With these writers and showrunner, I totally believe it was meant to be taken literally.

[shoetingstar]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:43 PM, catrox14 said:

I seriously was kind of hoping Dean was gonna ask for her number.  LOL. They had a great dynamic. 

I thought Dean remembered everything and he just lied about it. I don't think he would bring it up now unless it benefited him to use it against her in some way :)

He damn sure should have gotten her number lol. It would be nice to have the audience be aware that he remembered, even if he didn't give that up to Rowena and in front of Sam. 

And to one of your other posts, you are damn straight that Dean knows what 5th Base is. It reminds of Season 3 when Sam walked in on Dean doing a little sumthin-sumthin with the twins and Sam was horrified at what he witnessed.  That still cracks me up.  I still wonder what he saw, specifically lol. Maybe it was 4 and 1/2 Base? ;)

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I mean that I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally. It seems standard survivor's trauma to me and not about the face itself. So, I fail to see how it re-frames Sam's Hell time at all. Seems to just reinforce

I already explained my rationale in the spoilers thread that it has to do with what I think Castiel removing Sam's memories and "burden".  Obviously free to disagree with my interpretation as I stand by it being a retcon. FOR ME. IMO.

16 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

And to one of your other posts, you are damn straight that Dean knows what 5th Base is. It reminds of Season 3 when Sam walked in on Dean doing a little sumthin-sumthin with the twins and Sam was horrified at what he witnessed.  That still cracks me up.  I still wonder what he saw, specifically lol. Maybe it was 4 and 1/2 Base? ;)

LOL I think Dean is one kinky guy. Remember the flogger he had from Advanced Thanatology? And how happy he was to know if there were "sexy rules" from the hooker trolling for souls in s10? He had the threesome you mentioned and the likely foursome with Crowley and the triplets. Dean is well versed in the sexual arts and all the bases LOL. No one will convince me otherwise.

[shoetingstar]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I already explained my rationale in the spoilers thread that it has to do with what I think Castiel removing Sam's memories and "burden".  Obviously free to disagree with my interpretation as I stand by it being a retcon. FOR ME. IMO.

LOL I think Dean is one kinky guy. Remember the flogger he had from Advanced Thanatology? And how happy he was to know if there were "sexy rules" from the hooker trolling for souls in s10? He had the threesome you mentioned and the likely foursome with Crowley and the triplets. Dean is well versed in the sexual arts and all the bases LOL. No one will convince me otherwise.

I totally agree. In a semi-related note, he also liked wearing Rhonda Whatsherface's pink, satin panties.  That's a light example though. Dean's sexual adventurism is pretty much canon to me. I just consider him is your go-to person if you want to try out some non-vanilla stuff with a safe, non-judgmental person (Vanilla is fine with him too, though lol).

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

I totally agree. In a semi-related note, he also liked wearing Rhonda Whatsherface's pink, satin panties.  That's a light example though. Dean's sexual adventurism is pretty much canon to me. I just consider him is your go-to person if you want to try out some non-vanilla stuff with a safe, non-judgmental person (Vanilla is fine with him too, though lol).

This is my head canon of Dean as well.  ETA: Screw that. It's not even head canon. It's canon! LOL

Rhonda Hurley.  Gosh that was such a great moment LOL. 'And you know what? We kinda liked it".

 

LOL Dean, Dean, Dean.  LOL

Edited February 7, 2018 by catrox14

[shoetingstar]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is my head canon of Dean as well.  ETA: Screw that. It's not even head canon. It's canon! LOL

Rhonda Hurley.  Gosh that was such a great moment LOL. 'And you know what? We kinda liked it".

 

LOL Dean, Dean, Dean.  LOL

Yes, it was fairly epic! Using that fact to prove that he was indeed Past!Dean, no less!

[Diane]

15 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

From the spoilers thread, but there are no spoilers...

My point is that I don't think the trauma is the face itself, but is the face Sam and Rowena has put on the trauma; it's the image in which they relive their trauma through. They may not even be seeing the same face.

For instance, a rape survivor might relive their trauma through a smell or a particular sound. But the smell or the sound isn't the actual trauma, it's the trigger.

That's what I mean that I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally. It seems standard survivor's trauma to me and not about the face itself. So, I fail to see how it re-frames Sam's Hell time at all. Seems to just reinforce what we've been told before. 

This is how I see it too, not even close to a ret-con. No where has it been said that Cas erased all of Sam's hell memories. 

[Myrelle]

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Eh. With these writers and showrunner, I totally believe it was meant to be taken literally.

Me too.

[Katy M]

I think it was the face literally, too.  It's canon that demons and angels have their own faces.  In No REst for the Wicked, Dean shudders when he can see Ruby's face.  I have no trouble believing that the mere sight of someone who is complete evil and has the face to match would be terrifying.

[catrox14]

18 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

t is that I don't think the trauma is the face itself, but is the face Sam and Rowena has put on the trauma; it's the image in which they relive their trauma through. They may not even be seeing the same face.

For instance, a rape survivor might relive their trauma through a smell or a particular sound. But the smell or the sound isn't the actual trauma, it's the trigger.

That's what I mean that I don't think it was meant to be taken so literally. It seems standard survivor's trauma to me and not about the face itself. So, I fail to see how it re-frames Sam's Hell time at all. Seems to just reinforce what we've been told before. 

 

 I don't know why Rowena would say 'He showed me his true face" unless it was exactly that and why Sam would say, "I know. I've seen it too. . He never possessed Rowena AFAIK so she wouldn't have seen it that way.

Quote

What Lucifer did to you -- Told you, I don't

Before he crushed my skull, Lucifer showed me his face. His true face. [ Whispers ] I'm scared, Sam. [ Inhales deeply ] All the time.

I've seen it, too, what he really looks like behind -- behind whatever vessel. It..Yeah, still keeps me up at night.

How do you deal with it?

I guess I don't deal with it. Not really. I mean, I I pushed it down and, um the -- the world kept almost ending, so I-I keep pushing it down, and I don't know. I I don't really talk about it, not even with Dean. I mean, I-I-I could. You know, he'd -- he'd listen, but That's not something I really know how to share.

 

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e12

 

IMO, it is a true face, a real face, in whatever manifestation, not a triggered memory and is a retcon to Lucifer's lore and Sam's history given that a retcon is something introduced that either changes continuity, and/or significantly reframes a character or story line, so I absolutely count this is as a retcon for Sam and Lucifer even if the concept of the true face of angels was introduced in general with  Zachariah and Castiel being the size of the Chrysler building.

What I count as retcon are the following: 

--Lucifer killed Rowena in s11 after getting her help to get him out of the cage. But it was never said that he showed his true face to her before breaking her neck then. If it was a concept why not have it come up in s11 when Rowena came back and wanted to kill Lucifer? IMO, the real answer is that it didn't exist in the writers mind until now. If I want to be generous maybe the decided 2 years ago to make this a thing but only used it now. I don't believe that to be true but I put it out there.  They are using it to delve into Sam's mental state for the rest of this season. It's a retcon plot device for Sam's SL to move into a look at his mental health.

--As to Cas being unable to heal all of Sam's mental and emotional wounds, why would he have left behind that most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face when he took the burden from Sam? Wouldn't he have left the lesser of the injuries and trauma and taken away a memory of something that he himself has likely seen as they are both angels?

--Wouldn't Lucifer's True Face affecting Sam so much to this day that he doesn't sleep at night have come up during the trials?

--Wouldn't it have come up during s9 when he was possessed by another angel that used him to kill Kevin during a season that brought up Lucifer directly with the Mark of Cain. 

--Wouldn't it have come up in s11 when Sam had his flashbacks to actually being tortured in the Cage? Or when Sam faced him again for the first time in 5 years at that time? Wouldn't it have come up when he had to work with him to fight the Darkness? Wouldn't it have come up when he took the trip down memory lane with Lucifer?

MO, the best way to make this work is for the writers to say that Lucifer showed it to him in s11 and that's what he's been pushing down because the world kept almost ending, which actually made me LOL because NO Sam, it wasn't a passive thing that just happened to happen, the world kept almost ending because of you and Dean...I'm just saying. Question: Is that how Sam really sees his role in these events or are the writers trying to whitewash all this for Sam? (I'm leaving Dean out of the whitewashing for now because this is what Sam said, not Dean and this isn't B v J. Just analyzing what was said on screen by Sam here. 

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

-As to Cas being unable to heal all of Sam's mental and emotional wounds, why would he have left behind that most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face when he took the burden from Sam? Wouldn't he have left the lesser of the injuries and trauma and taken away a memory of something that he himself has likely seen as they are both angels?

Taking my comment to All Seasons Talk.

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

--Lucifer killed Rowena in s11 after getting her help to get him out of the cage. But it was never said that he showed his true face to her before breaking her neck then. If it was a concept why not have it come up in s11 when Rowena came back and wanted to kill Lucifer?

Also taken to the "All Episodes..." thread

[millennium]

I love Rowena, I'm happy she's back but I fear her presence comes at a price -- the inevitable return of Crowley as well.

The scenes were Sam and Rowena stood side by side were a bit disconcerting.  Ruth Connell is so petite, even in boots.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, millennium said:

I love Rowena, I'm happy she's back but I fear her presence comes at a price -- the inevitable return of Crowley as well.

The scenes were Sam and Rowena stood side by side were a bit disconcerting.  Ruth Connell is so petite, even in boots.  

I feel pretty sure you don't have to be worried about Crowley returning, at least not as played by Mark Sheppard. He's made it pretty clear he's never coming back to the show. I'll be pissed if they recast the part.

[millennium]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I feel pretty sure you don't have to be worried about Crowley returning, at least not as played by Mark Sheppard. He's made it pretty clear he's never coming back to the show. I'll be pissed if they recast the part.

Really?   I don't follow any news outside of the show.    Was he disgruntled, or is he just moving on to other things?

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, millennium said:

Really?   I don't follow any news outside of the show.    Was he disgruntled, or is he just moving on to other things?

Both. But I'm pretty sure there's a better chance of Kripke coming back to the show than Mark Sheppard.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, millennium said:

Really?   I don't follow any news outside of the show.    Was he disgruntled, or is he just moving on to other things?

We don't really know the whole story, but it does appear he was disgruntled and did move on to other things because he had to. He was pretty vocal about not returning to the show this summer and I don't think Mark will probably change his mind on that, but one never knows. The right offer, from the right person with the right guarantees could change things substantially. He has mentioned his disgruntlement was with TPTB, not the cast or crew who he has nothing but nice things to say.

Edited February 16, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[millennium]

Thanks for the info.   Perhaps he was displeased with his character, the so-called King of Hell, being turned into a buffoon.