Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[dtissagirl]

Haha, I couldn't pay any attention because I was stuck on WHY IS AMANDA TAPPING NARRATING THIS? oh wait, it's the alternate universes explanation from the Ripple Effect episode of SG-1, right. A+ choice there, vidder. :)

[Sakura12]

SG-1 would totally be involved in an epic fight between super humans and aliens. 

[KirkB]

I've seen DC vs Marvel mash ups like that before, but never one that was so well done. It was edited perfectly. And it's got me thinking. What would be the better fight, given the respective cinematic versions. Superman vs Hulk or Superman vs Thor?

[calliope1975]

What would be the better fight, given the respective cinematic versions. Superman vs Hulk or Superman vs Thor?

 

Hmmm...well Thor and Supes are basically gods and I would think matched pretty evenly. Supes does have laser eyes and freeze breath, but Thor has MewMew. Plus, they both have pretty red capes. 

 

Hulk would probably be more fun to watch though, since he's all rage and id. 

[Trini]

Black Canary vs. Black Widow was the best part.  But that vid is more proof the male/female superhero ratio is way unbalanced.

[Sakura12]

It's very unbalanced. What did that show, small scenes between Black Widow vs Black Canary and Wonder Woman vs Scarlett Witch. The only women heroes really represented on the big and small screen. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Some of the shots were going by so fast, but I could swear I saw Wonder Woman fighting the Hulk at one point.

[Sakura12]

It looked like Wonder Woman was fighting the Hulk, Scarlet Witch and Rocket Racoon. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

It's very unbalanced. What did that show, small scenes between Black Widow vs Black Canary and Wonder Woman vs Scarlett Witch. The only women heroes really represented on the big and small screen.

there are 4 in the X-Men movies alone (Storm, Jean/Phoenix, Kitty, Rogue). Haven't watched the video but it sounds like he did all DC properties (tv, movie) vs MCU only? Did he also exclude Gamora and Catwoman for some reason? Edited December 22, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

there are 4 in the X-Men movies alone (Storm, Jean/Phoenix, Kitty, Rogue). Haven't watched the video but it sounds like he did all DC properties (tv, movie) vs MCU only? Did he also exclude Gamora and Catwoman for some reason?

I only watched it once (it was well done) but yeah, that sounds about right. I don't remember seeing Gamora or Catwoman. The only DC women I remember seeing were Wonder Woman and Black Canary (Sara).

At least one of the Wonder Woman clips looked like it might have been taken from a video game?

[Sakura12]

I forgot Storm was there for a split second. The rest of female X-Men were not. 

 

I was wondering where all the Wonder Woman clips came from. She was the only woman hero that was heavily featured in that vid. 

 

It actually would've been epic to see Catwoman and Black Canary vs Black Widow and Gamora. The Sorority of Assassin/Thieves. 

Edited December 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I think I saw Jean for a second? I don't know - I'll have to watch it again. But yeah, Wonder Woman was the only majorly featured female superhero. There was only one clip of Sara.

[BkWurm1]

Scarlet Witch from the upcoming Avengers was in it too.

[writersblock51]

The Wonder Woman clips were from the (horrible) pilot but looked good here. There was one of her from a video game.  I don't know where the Aquaman stuff came from - looked crisper than a vido game but it was also VERY quick.

 

Loved seeing Sara as BC there!

 

In the world of superheroes, I think there's going to be an imbalance of males/females for a long time to come.  Too bad more of the X-Men didn't make it in there because that's one franchise that's had a better balance than any of the others, regardless of DC or Marvel.

[Sakura12]

I'm thinking the Aquaman stuff was either from Smallville or the Aguaman pilot with Justin Hartley. I couldn't tell who it was, it went to quick.

[Starfish35]

Which clip was Aquaman? Was that the underwater one? Someone with a sword? I couldn't tell who that was?

I just watched it again. I'm pretty sure Jean is in there briefly. There's a clip toward the end that I think is from the end of X2 where she's holding back the water with one hand and raising the jet with the other.

Who was the guy with wings?

Edited December 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

Just watched it and I call BULLSHIT...no way this wussified version of Deathstroke could beat my Merc with a Mouth...Deadpool pawns all!

OK, the guy under water at 109 kind of looks like Hugh Kackman. Jean and Storm are in the video, and I think there's 2 aquamen (Smallville's version and maybe one from a game?)

I believe Gamora is also in it, when we see the clip of GotG looking into the cabin of the Milano.

This was a very good mash up, reminds me of the DC vs Marvel crossover in the 90s

The guy with Angel wings is from Legion, I don't know why he's in there.

I think they also used images of Jason Momoa from other movies to be Aquaman.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

Marvel and Netflix Cast Mike Colter as Luke Cage in ‘Jessica Jones’
DECEMBER 22, 2014 | 12:26PM PT Laura Prudom News Editor @lauinla
https://variety.com/2014/digital/news/luke-cage-mike-colter-marvel-netflix-jessica-jones-1201385477/

[tv echo]

Exploring Superheroes on TV: Why Superhero Television Shows Are So Popular
Posted on December 22, 2014 Nora Dominick ‘17 / Emertainment Monthly Staff Writer
http://emertainmentmonthly.com/2014/12/22/exploring-superheroes-tv-superhero-television-shows-popular/

 

We need a Green Arrow for the Justice League and DC movie universe....
by Alex Tainer ⋅ Posted on December 23rd, 2014 at 1:13am
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/23/we-need-a-green-arrow-for-the-justice-league-and-dc-movie-universe-2537796?lt_source=external,manual

 

How will "Teen Titans" affect The CW Universe?
If the Teen Titans will be in the CW Universe alongside Arrow and The Flash, what will happen? I don't know either, man.
By GentlemansRview - 12/22/2014
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/teen_titans/news/?a=112737
In case you missed the previous news...
‘Teen Titans’ TV Series ‘Titans’ Pilot to Shoot in 2015
Published 2 weeks ago by Sandy Schaefer , Updated December 10th, 2014 at 1:59 pm,
http://screenrant.com/teen-titans-series-tnt-pilot-2015/

[wingster55]

From last page re: Peyton List...I never saw Tomorrow People but on Mad Men she was able to portray a character that really grew over the course of that show, from spoiled brat that we hated to someone that evoked sympathy and in her last appearance was a complete 180 from her first appearance. 

[Chiny11]

Please help me out with a dumb question I have?

In the Flash episode of Flarrow crossover, how did Dr. Wells figure out that Oliver Queen is the Arrow?

Was it just the simple deduction (which a three year old could have made) : "The Arrow & Oliver Queen are both in Central city at the same time therefore The Arrow = Oliver Queen"? OR was there something else?

Thanks

[quarks]

Over in the Small Talk thread, Chiny11 asked:

 

In the Flash episode of Flarrow crossover, how did Dr. Wells figure out that Oliver Queen is the Arrow?

 

 

I don't think this is a stupid question, because it wasn't specifically answered in the script. I think there are two possible answers:

 

1.  Wells knows this because he has access to information about future events, and Oliver Queen's secret identity as the Arrow will get revealed in the next ten years or so.  (I think that's the timeline suggested by the future newspapers.)  His initial meeting with Felicity when she first came over to The Flash suggests this as a possibility, as does his later encounter with her when he asks her who the Arrow is, and she says it's not her secret to tell.  The impression I got from that second scene is that Wells already knew who the Arrow was; he was just testing Felicity's loyalty. 

 

2. Wells figured it out because he's intelligent enough to put the pieces together.  Even before Barry tells him that Felicity works with Team Arrow, Wells could have figured out the connection, since Felicity was the one to ask STAR Labs to come up with a Mirakuru cure that was later used by the Arrow to cure the supersoldiers. Wells seems to be paranoid enough to be the type to start doing a bit of research at this point, and it would not have been hard to figure out that Felicity worked for Oliver Queen publicly during this time. 

 

Later, Felicity shows up to the city along with Oliver Queen, and just as Oliver Queen shows up, the Arrow does.  And Barry and Felicity have that whispered conversation about Oliver shooting Barry, which Wells could have overheard.

 

It's also made clear in the script for both shows that no one thinks it's that unlikely, especially since after a few initial fake drunken episodes, Oliver doesn't seem to be trying that hard to establish the playboy persona cover that Batman/Bruce Wayne does.  The response of several people after getting told tends not to be surprise, but, "Huh."  Sebastian Blood, for instance, barely blinks an eye when Oliver tells him: he's more like "Oh, that explains things."  Cisco even tells us in the script that Oliver was on his list of people who could be the Arrow - sure, it's a list of about 150 people, but this is also well before Cisco met Oliver or the Arrow or before the Arrow showed up in Central City, showing that there's enough public information out there that even people in another city who have never met Oliver can start putting the pieces together.

[Chiny11]

@quarks thanks for the response. I think your first answer is most likely the one to go with. Especially since Flash has emphasized the whole "Dr Wells Knows About Future Events" point.

Thank you

[tv echo]

There's some discussion in the Spoiler Discussion thread about why Team Arrow doesn't ask for Team Flash's help when needed.  That made me think of this - I recently rewatched Captain America: The Winter Soldier and wondered why Steve Rogers didn't ask for Tony Stark's help.  Instead, Steve needed the help of Sam/Falcon - a guy he only just met - to fly around.  That made me think of the end of Iron Man 3 when Tony destroyed all of his Iron Man suits - which I thought seemed out of character for him (you'd think he'd keep at least one in reserve).  Now I think it was just a plot device so that Tony would not be able to help Steve because he had no suit (and presumably was busy working on his super robot for the next Avengers movie).

[tv echo]

This is a nicely done fan-made trailer...

 

Batman vs Green Arrow - TV Spot 10
Published on Dec. 25, 2014, by ShadesAtKnight

Edited December 29, 2014 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Ten Marvel Vs. DC Comics Crossovers We Want To See
By Russ Burlingame  12/27/2014
http://comicbook.com/2014/12/27/five-marvel-vs-dc-comics-crossovers-we-want-to-see/

Arrow vs. Hawkeye

One is an Avenger, a member of the most powerful group of superheroes in the Marvel Universe.

 

The other is...well, currently he's dead, but he's also played by a guy who actually knows how to use a bow and arrow, so that's got to count for something, right?

 

Both Arrow star Stephen Amell and The Avengers' Jeremy Renner have said they'd like to appear on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (or, more accurately in Amell's case, cross over with it) at some point down the line, so while it's wildly unlikely we'll ever see these guys comparing trick arrows, never say never!

Edited December 29, 2014 by tv echo

[tv echo]

5 Thoughts On Grant Gustin, Stephen Amell, Emily Bett Rickards' 'The Flash' Crossover On CW! [WATCH]
By Jorge Solis (j.solis@mstarsnews.com) | Dec 25, 2014 07:00 PM EST
http://www.mstarz.com/articles/45098/20141225/5-thoughts-grant-gustin-stephen-amell-emily-bett-rickards-flash-cw.htm

[Danny Franks]

There's some discussion in the Spoiler Discussion thread about why Team Arrow doesn't ask for Team Flash's help when needed.  That made me think of this - I recently rewatched Captain America: The Winter Soldier and wondered why Steve Rogers didn't ask for Tony Stark's help.  Instead, Steve needed the help of Sam/Falcon - a guy he only just met - to fly around.  That made me think of the end of Iron Man 3 when Tony destroyed all of his Iron Man suits - which I thought seemed out of character for him (you'd think he'd keep at least one in reserve).  Now I think it was just a plot device so that Tony would not be able to help Steve because he had no suit (and presumably was busy working on his super robot for the next Avengers movie).

 

That was something that Marvel had thought about, and talked about in media spots before the post-Avengers movies came out. Which is more than can be said for anyone involved in Arrow, it seems.

 

I don't think they ever really said anything explicitly in the movies about why people weren't available, but I think the events of each of them would at least indicate that it was in the minds of the writers. Iron Man 3 has Tony dead and then on the run, in very short order. Thor 2 has Thor spending most of his time in Asgard, and then the climax is in London, and again happens pretty quickly. Cap 2 is again something that develops very quickly (and unfortunately for Cap, none of his pals are possessed of super speed), and the story doesn't really go public until after the fact. I think Tony, or Thor, would only know that Cap needed help if he reached out to them. He didn't. So was that because he thought Natasha and Sam were enough, or because he took Fury's warning not to trust anyone to heart? Or was he just trying to keep them safe, once he realised SHIELD was compromised?

 

In Arrow, as soon as you set up a ticking clock like they did for Ra's's ultimatum, then the obvious answer is The Flash. His whole schtick is based on being able to make time to fix problems that there isn't time to fix. That no one, either in the writers room or on the show, came up with that answer is a writing failure. Even if they then say, 'oh, Barry's busy' or 'he can't help us with this because.... whatever'.

[apinknightmare]

In Arrow, as soon as you set up a ticking clock like they did for Ra's's ultimatum, then the obvious answer is The Flash. His whole schtick is based on being able to make time to fix problems that there isn't time to fix. That no one, either in the writers room or on the show, came up with that answer is a writing failure. Even if they then say, 'oh, Barry's busy' or 'he can't help us with this because.... whatever'.

 

How could Barry have helped with Ra's ultimatum? The team didn't run out of time to find Sara's killer - the issue was that Oliver wasn't willing to give her up. 

[BkWurm1]

Brought this question over from The Green Arrow Comics thread. 

 

We find out in "Going Rouge" over on The Flash that Felicity found out about Barry's powers at the same time that Oliver did.  Barry asks if Oliver told her and she says no, "Honestly I heard you two talking on that rooftop in Starling City that night."

 

Soooo, why did Felicity follow Oliver to the rooftop?  When Barry calls and says he could use some advice, Oliver says he'd bee right there but he does pause to change into his green leathers.  Originally I assumed he went up to the roof of the hospital but he goes to meet Barry somewhere, not the other way around.  Someone suggested Oliver accidently had his com on but why would Felicity even be listening to comms at that point?  It's late, there's no pressing business, she and Oliver just had a very emotional moment.  I can't imagine that she'd calmly go back to the Lair and start listening in to the comms. 

 

So how did she overhear them talking?  Did she follow Oliver?  Maybe the meeting spot was at the hospital roof.  Ray pinged Felicity's phone, Barry had the ability to do so as well. If not the hospital, why was she there?  How did she get there? Where they just meeting on the same rooftop she coincidentally likes to hang out on also?  ( I guess Sara had her favorite spot, so I suppose Felicity could have one too. )   I do know that they are still downtown.  You can see the Queen Consolidated logo rising above them a few blocks behind them.  It's not the tallest of buildings...that would play into the Hospital theory, plus it would have to be a public building since Barry wouldn't have figured out the running up walls thing yet.

 

Any way, these are things I want to know.  I remain very surprised I've never seen anything about it in any Fanfiction. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

My understanding, and I'm not sure if this has been officially said (and certainly wasn't brought up even casually in the movies like it could have been) is that the reason none of the Avengers ask any of the others for help is mainly because everything was happening at once. Fury, SHIELD, Cap and Widow were busy in one part of the country dealing with the events of Winter Soldier, while at the same time Stark was elsewhere dealing with Killian and Thor spent most of his time in Asgard with a few stops in London and other random places. That leaves Hawkeye and Hulk. Hawkeye may very well have been dealing with Winter Soldier issues offscreen and Banner isn't usually near a phone.

[apinknightmare]

Brought this question over from The Green Arrow Comics thread.

We find out in "Going Rouge" over on The Flash that Felicity found out about Barry's powers at the same time that Oliver did. Barry asks if Oliver told her and she says no, "Honestly I heard you two talking on that rooftop in Starling City that night."

Soooo, why did Felicity follow Oliver to the rooftop? When Barry calls and says he could use some advice, Oliver says he'd bee right there but he does pause to change into his green leathers. Originally I assumed he went up to the roof of the hospital but he goes to meet Barry somewhere, not the other way around. Someone suggested Oliver accidently had his com on but why would Felicity even be listening to comms at that point? It's late, there's no pressing business, she and Oliver just had a very emotional moment. I can't imagine that she'd calmly go back to the Lair and start listening in to the comms.

So how did she overhear them talking? Did she follow Oliver? Maybe the meeting spot was at the hospital roof. Ray pinged Felicity's phone, Barry had the ability to do so as well. If not the hospital, why was she there? How did she get there? Where they just meeting on the same rooftop she coincidentally likes to hang out on also? ( I guess Sara had her favorite spot, so I suppose Felicity could have one too. ) I do know that they are still downtown. You can see the Queen Consolidated logo rising above them a few blocks behind them. It's not the tallest of buildings...that would play into the Hospital theory, plus it would have to be a public building since Barry wouldn't have figured out the running up walls thing yet.

Any way, these are things I want to know. I remain very surprised I've never seen anything about it in any Fanfiction.

Felicity going to the foundry after that talk really doesn't make any sense, but only because Oliver was currently living there - if he wasn't I could see her going there to do some work since she probably wouldn't have been able to sleep. I highly doubt she followed him onto the roof though, because she'd have to have a) overheard his cell conversation when Oliver probably would've seen her stop to listen, b) followed him to wherever he changed into his suit (whether he had one stashed away with him or went back to the foundry) and then c) followed him again to whatever roof they met on, assuming he got there in a way she COULD even follow him (which he probably didn't, considering he left by shooting an arrow into a building and swinging over to it), and d) would've been stupid enough to follow him somewhere potentially dangerous just because she's curious, when she has other, safer ways of finding out what he's up to (she's not Laurel! :)) We can also safely assume that she wasn't present on the rooftop, because Barry made a Flash exit, and in "Going Rogue," Felicity really did react like she'd never seen it.

I think it makes more sense that she heard them over the comms, either because she had some kind of security rigged to know if Oliver went out as Arrow if she wasn't around or because she saw Oliver hurry off somewhere (he left the hospital almost right after she did) and got curious. Maybe he let her know that Barry called him and left the channel open so she could hear? Obviously it's just a not very well thought out plot device for Flash purposes, but it makes more sense to me that she overheard it over the comms than by actually following Oliver somewhere.

Edited December 30, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Danny Franks]

How could Barry have helped with Ra's ultimatum? The team didn't run out of time to find Sara's killer - the issue was that Oliver wasn't willing to give her up. 

 

As I understand it, they didn't have time to figure out how to get Thea off the hook and put the blame on Merlyn. Barry could have helped them with that. Find where Merlyn is hiding (if he can find five bombs in the city, he can find one hideout), find the video he made or other incriminating evidence, seize Merlyn and zoom to Nanda Parbat with him. Or they could have Barry find the assassins in Starling City and then go and confront them instead. Or they could have forgotten the deadline and asked Barry to, as I already mentioned, go and get Ra's. Unless Ra's is so super amazing that he would somehow counter a lightning fast punch to the face that neither he, nor anyone else, was expecting.

 

That no one (not even Felicity, resident brainbox and fan of Barry) ever said, 'wait, what about the guy we know who can do things at superhuman speed', when they were supposedly trying to come up with any conceivable way out of their predicament? Fail. Especially when the DNA analysis came from Star Labs in the first place. Even if they'd had Oliver just respond with a vague and silly, 'he can't help us with something like this' generalisation.

[apinknightmare]

As I understand it, they didn't have time to figure out how to get Thea off the hook and put the blame on Merlyn. Barry could have helped them with that. Find where Merlyn is hiding (if he can find five bombs in the city, he can find one hideout), find the video he made or other incriminating evidence, seize Merlyn and zoom to Nanda Parbat with him. Or they could have Barry find the assassins in Starling City and then go and confront them instead. Or they could have forgotten the deadline and asked Barry to, as I already mentioned, go and get Ra's. Unless Ra's is so super amazing that he would somehow counter a lightning fast punch to the face that neither he, nor anyone else, was expecting.

 

That no one (not even Felicity, resident brainbox and fan of Barry) ever said, 'wait, what about the guy we know who can do things at superhuman speed', when they were supposedly trying to come up with any conceivable way out of their predicament? Fail. Especially when the DNA analysis came from Star Labs in the first place. Even if they'd had Oliver just respond with a vague and silly, 'he can't help us with something like this' generalisation.

 

But time had nothing to do with their issue - yes, Ra's imposed a 48-hour deadline on them, but Oliver didn't do what he did because he ran out of time and couldn't figure out an alternative, he did what he did because Malcolm was threatening Thea and had who knows how many backups of that video stashed away on flash drives that would've been impossible to find. Barry wouldn't have been able to do anything about that. I think the deadline's only purpose was to get things resolved within the hour of the show.

 

And you do have a point that Barry could've done something to defeat Ra's, but do you really think that Oliver would ever ask Barry to do anything that would put him on the LoA's radar and/or make him a target? No way.

[tv echo]

I still think it would have made sense for Steve Rogers to have at least put in a call to Tony Stark, esp. when the lives of millions of people were at stake.  Tony was the one Avenger who was most skeptical and suspicious of SHIELD and would've been on Steve's side.  Steve would have no way of getting in touch with Thor, who Steve last saw going up to Asgard, or Bruce Banner, who's out there in the world somewhere.  If Iron Man 3 took place before CA 2, then Steve still might not know about Tony's destroying the suits, so there could've been at least a reference to Tony's being unavailable to help.  If all the post-Avengers individual movies took place around the same time, then maybe Steve could've gotten a busy or no longer in service signal.  I guess my point is that Steve - and Nick Fury for that matter - made no attempt to contact Tony.  Instead, Steve turned to Sam, a guy he met while jogging recently, and apparently trusted him more than he trusted a fellow Avenger.  The only explanation I can think of is that in some offscreen conversation or text, Nick told Steve that Tony was not available to help.    

 

I agree that, while I love the Arrow-Flash crossovers, it's going to create problems for Arrow storytelling.

Edited December 30, 2014 by tv echo

[KirkB]

Strictly speaking, we don't know that Steve didn't call Tony and get a busy signal. Off screen. Or for that matter, he may have seen the news of the attack on Tony's house and the general assumption that Tony was dead or injured. Again, off screen. Of course that could easily have been dealt with by a quick glimpse of a TV screen with a shot from IM3. Steve may have been dissuaded from his desire to go help or look for Tony by the whole Shield turning on him and going on the run thing.  

Edited December 30, 2014 by KirkB

[dtissagirl]

There was nothing about it in text, but I think I fanwanked it as Oliver didn't tell anyone outside of Dig-Felicity-Roy because it involved Thea. So 1. he really felt like it was his responsability alone, and 2. I don't think Oliver wants to tell ANYONE that his little sister was brainwashed into killing Sara.

 

Do I think Barry & Co. could have helped? Sure. Do I think Oliver wanted their help? Nope. He really didn't.

 

However, if Felicity doesn't call Barry and ask him to search for Oliver once she learns what's happened, I'll call shenanigans.

 

...

 

As for Felicity learning about Barry's powers, yeah, she didn't say the word "comms", but that's what I think happened. I don't think she needed to be in the foundry, either. In that same episode we saw her running ops from the Buy More back room, so they're obviously set up for remote access from anywhere. She could be in her living room, and Oliver could have texted her about suiting up and meeting Barry. Also, Oliver himself could have left the comms open instead of Felicity eavesdropping.

 

But I truly don't think Felicity was in that roof.

[Morrigan2575]

Strictly speaking, we don't know that Steve didn't call Tony and get a busy signal. Off screen. Or for that matter, he may have seen the news of the attack on Tony's house and the general assumption that Tony was dead or injured. Again, off screen. Of course that could easily have been dealt with by a quick glimpse of a TV screen with a shot from IM3. Steve may have been dissuaded from his desire to go help or look for Tony by the whole Shield turning on him and going on the run thing.

IM3 and CA2 happened at two totally different times. IM3 is during Christmas, CA2 is late spring/early summer in DC (judging by clothing).

There is mention of Barton and Stark in CA2. Barton is referenced as being on a mission in Bosnia (or some other country). Stark is targeted in the initial Insight targeting as being at Stark Towers in NYC.

As for why Steve didn't call Tony or any other Avenger well Tony did destroy all of his suits at Christmas time, so Steve probably figured Iron Man would be of no help, Thor is either on Asgard or honeymooning in London and Banner is off playing psychiatrist.

[apinknightmare]

There was nothing about it in text, but I think I fanwanked it as Oliver didn't tell anyone outside of Dig-Felicity-Roy because it involved Thea. So 1. he really felt like it was his responsability alone, and 2. I don't think Oliver wants to tell ANYONE that his little sister was brainwashed into killing Sara.

Do I think Barry & Co. could have helped? Sure. Do I think Oliver wanted their help? Nope. He really didn't.

However, if Felicity doesn't call Barry and ask him to search for Oliver once she learns what's happened, I'll call shenannigans.

Yeah, I think there will be some head-scratching moments in the future when the team doesn't ask Barry and co. for help, so the shared universe could become a bit of a problem. But I don't think Oliver would have ever asked for Barry's help with Ra's, for lots of reasons.

[dtissagirl]

I think Oliver's personality works for their advantage here. He's so goddamn territorial about everything, that I can buy it that he won't call Barry 99% of the time. I think the crossover even established it that Oliver never asked for Barry's help. He offered to help in Central City because Felicity bugged him into it [it was also Felicity that wanted Cisco's help with the boomerang, and Caitlin's help with the DNA], and back in SC, Caitlin and Cisco just showed up, and Barry followed, all uninvited.

 

However, I do think that if they do anything super-powered on Arrow and Team Flash doesn't show up to help out, they'll have to set it up in a way that really looks like they were super busy in Central City. Kind of like Buffy S5, when Team Angel didn't show up to the fight against Glory because they were stuck in another dimension.

[Danny Franks]

Do I think Barry & Co. could have helped? Sure. Do I think Oliver wanted their help? Nope. He really didn't.

 

However, if Felicity doesn't call Barry and ask him to search for Oliver once she learns what's happened, I'll call shenanigans.

 

This is true. Oliver would rather die before admitting he needed help. Which... oh, he did die. Mostly. So it kind of shows how dumb Oliver can be about stuff, and I think both Diggle and Felicity know Oliver can be dumb about stuff. Felicity, in particular, I would see as throwing his macho concerns out of the window and calling Barry herself. If they'd written that episode to character, I'd have expected to see a last minute save by Barry, who was called by Felicity after Oliver left, and guided to the location by a tracker that Felicity planted on Oliver when he hugged her. Then Oliver could gripe about not being able to die nobly, and they could figure out what to do now Ra's seemed to think Oliver was responsible for Sara's death.

 

But that didn't fit the plot that the writers wanted.

[apinknightmare]

This is true. Oliver would rather die before admitting he needed help. Which... oh, he did die. Mostly. So it kind of shows how dumb Oliver can be about stuff, and I think both Diggle and Felicity know Oliver can be dumb about stuff. Felicity, in particular, I would see as throwing his macho concerns out of the window and calling Barry herself. If they'd written that episode to character, I'd have expected to see a last minute save by Barry, who was called by Felicity after Oliver left, and guided to the location by a tracker that Felicity planted on Oliver when he hugged her. Then Oliver could gripe about not being able to die nobly, and they could figure out what to do now Ra's seemed to think Oliver was responsible for Sara's death.

 

But that didn't fit the plot that the writers wanted.

 

And in the end Malcolm still has how many copies of the video evidence that Thea killed Sara to hold over Oliver's head - so they're still in the same position they were in before, only now they've pissed Ra's off. I get that you're trying to make a point, and it will inevitably be a valid one with this shared universe, but you are absolutely choosing the wrong episode to make it with.

[KirkB]

The majority of stuff Oliver and company deal with on a regular basis wouldn't need Barry anyway. The usual plot is unusually themed villain shows up, causes some trouble, and then Oliver shoots at him or her until they stop. The only real reason they needed his help in their half of the crossover is because the writers set it up that way and even then Barry only came because Caitlin called him. Oliver himself would refuse to even admit he needed the help anyway, it would be up to Felicity to call Barry if and when it was decided he could help out, and Oliver would moan and complain afterward. As for the aftermath of the finale, they probably won't SHOW Barry helping search for Oliver but just Felicity getting off the phone with him saying he didn't find anything.

[calliope1975]

I am pretty obsessed with the MCU and when CapAm 2 was filming there were stills of Natasha and Cap meeting with Tony Stark. It could have been a fake scene since Marvel's all about secrets and lies and subterfuge or just deleted, but I wonder if it would have addressed why Cap didn't reach out to anyone. 

 

In general this type of stuff doesn't bother me. I'm fine with the little nods that the universe is connected with Sif showing up on AoS, Bruce listening to Tony's story in IM3. I don't expect Thor to show up all the time and if he had, we might not have got Falcon. I can suspend my disbelief over that more than I can that Hawkeye didn't show up at some point while SHIELD was imploding (but I did like the brief mention.)

[BkWurm1]

I think it makes more sense that she heard them over the comms, either because she had some kind of security rigged to know if Oliver went out as Arrow if she wasn't around or because she saw Oliver hurry off somewhere (he left the hospital almost right after she did) and got curious. Maybe he let her know that Barry called him and left the channel open so she could hear? Obviously it's just a not very well thought out plot device for Flash purposes, but it makes more sense to me that she overheard it over the comms than by actually following Oliver somewhere.

 

Two things that make me have trouble with this.  Felicity was denying that she knew about Barry because of Oliver.  If he alerted her, her knowing about Barry would be because of Oliver.  Plus in that moment, would have Oliver called her unless it was urgent?  I do think Barry waking up would have been important enough that if Oliver had called Felicity to alert her, she would have gone with him to see Barry. 

 

 I also think if we were supposed to think she overheard it on the comms they would have included that.  It would have just been three more little words. The sentence would have been, "I overheard you on the comms talking to Oliver on the rooftop that night in Starling City"  It would have been simple for them to indicate she heard it on the comms instead the focus is that she overheard them on the rooftops. 

 

I don't think she needed to be in the foundry, either. In that same episode we saw her running ops from the Buy More back room, so they're obviously set up for remote access from anywhere. She could be in her living room, and Oliver could have texted her about suiting up and meeting Barry. Also, Oliver himself could have left the comms open instead of Felicity eavesdropping.

 

The issue with Felicity listening in from home or Oliver leaving the coms open still comes back to why she would have immediately after walking away from Oliver after a very emotionally charged moment turned on her comms?  There has been no indication that she keeps an earpiece in or that it is her habit to randomly check it.  Unless it is an in progress operation, Oliver calls her on her cell phone.  The idea that Oliver would text her a heads up doesn't really ring true to the moment either.  If ever they would be giving the other some space, you would think this is it.  Plus, it would have to irk Oliver for her one time love interest to suddenly show up right when he "had" to push Felicity away.  

 

The only way it would work for Felicity to be up on the roof with them is a) immediately after leaving Oliver she heads to the hospital roof - maybe to avoid running into a lingering Ray- and that its only a few minutes later when Oliver and Barry show up -and she can't see them, only hear them. or  b) she's ducked into the bathroom to wipe her eyes and when she's leaving she catches site of Oliver in GA gear going up to the roof and she for some reason follows.  The issues there become how could Felicity follow Oliver without him noticing her...unless the door opened soundlessly and he and Barry were already deep in talk when she showed up, again staying out of sight so she only hears the conversation but doesn't see Barry wiz away.  Of course if she followed them, why wouldn't she make her presence known?  If she'd been hiding out on the roof crying, I could get why she wouldn't want to be seen.

 

Yes, I know I'm probably over thining it, it's just it would have been so simple to be specific if it was a radio thing and they chose not to say it was over the comms so it just opens up at least my imagination, lol, for how that night could have gone differently.  I guess that's why it intrigues me, the road not taken. 

[apinknightmare]

I think she just didn't mention it was on the comms because it's a given. 

 

Regardless of whether she was just randomly listening in for whatever reason or if Oliver called her so she could listen in and she was being careful with her words when she explained that to Barry, it makes more sense to me that's how she found out than her being up on that roof. If Oliver and Barry did meet at the hospital, why would Oliver access the roof in any way where someone could see him, since he obviously left and then put on his suit? Was Felicity lurking in the stairwells? Why would she go and cry on the rooftop of all places when she could just get in her car and go home? Or cry in her car? 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with putting some thought into it because there's a missing piece in there somewhere, and she does tell Barry that she heard him and Oliver talking on the rooftop that night...how would she know they were on a rooftop? I just really hate the idea of her following him, and I don't understand why he'd go and change into Arrow gear just to meet him on the roof of a building he's already at when their discussion has nothing to do with Arrow business and at the time Oliver had no idea that Barry had developed powers. 

 

ETA: I really don't think they were on the rooftop of the hospital - the roof Oliver jumps off of looks like it's only four or five stories up. In all the hospital shots we've seen (Oliver looking out of the window in the pilot, in Year's End, Lila's room in The Calm), it seems like it's definitely a high rise. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I don't think Felicity even needed to hear that conversation live. She can have their comms link rigged to record every convo Oliver has while Arrow-ing, as a safety measure.

Maybe it's my Chloe Sullivan #1 fangirl side taking over, but tbh I just assume Felicity monitors the entire team's communications at all times. Comm links, phone calls, emails, texts, social media, everything is all being encrypted and uploaded onto a secure server, and constantly being analyzed for trigger words.

[And it's set up team protocol, btw, she's not doing this behind anyone's backs. Every comm link, every phone, every computer/tablet/electronic gadget they use was set up by Felicity.]

I kinda think if she's NOT doing it, then she's not doing her job properly.

I could rant about how much I hate it that Arrow doesn't take the time to set up security protocols about ANYTHING EVER -- hello unsecured comms, unsecured base of operations, lack of codenames in the field/over comms -- but I just come up with my own anyway, so THERE, SHOW.

Edited December 31, 2014 by dancingnancy

[JenMD]

I think the when/how/why of Oliver and Barry meeting and Felicity overhearing is proving particularly difficult to parse because you have different sets of writers writing three different scenarios (Flash pilot, Arrow 3.1 and Flash 1.4) at three different times, seemingly without regard for fitting things together all that well.

 

To me, The Flash writers in 1.4 dropped the ball with her "overheard" comment because, quite frankly, Barry should have called her himself when he woke up and discovered he had powers.  That he didn't think to is a writing fail, imo.  She shouldn't have had to overhear anything.  But also, trying to place her in a situation where she would overheard Barry and Oliver talking right after that super emotional moment with Oliver is just weird.  And trying to make sense of it is probably futile since the writers didn't put a whole lot of thought into it.  This is the time when need to take advantage of the fact that you work across the lot from the show you're trying to blend with - stop by, chat about the show, make sure things make some sense.

 

As for lack of fic about Felicity finding out Barry's secret (asked in the Comics thread, but more pertinent to this thread), I think it was such a nonsensical throwaway line that it just got shrugged off.  And in a fandom that writes fic from a fern's POV, that's saying something.

[apinknightmare]

As for lack of fic about Felicity finding out Barry's secret (asked in the Comics thread, but more pertinent to this thread), I think it was such a nonsensical throwaway line that it just got shrugged off.  And in a fandom that writes fic from a fern's POV, that's saying something.

 

This is killing me.

[dtissagirl]

Oh, totally agree, @JenMD. There's also the complete continuity WTF in Oliver being super duper cheerful happy dude dispensing self-help guru advice to Barry, about five minutes after he gave up on having a relationship with Felicity, and the normal happy life he craves because manpain. And then being all smiles and saying "cool" back. Yeah, right.

I kinda wonder what the hell were they thinking in sticking that phone call post break-up kiss. Did they not watch the Flash pilot or something? 'Cause if Barry had called during the 20 minutes of happy Arrow, it would have made a whole lot more sense.