Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Morrigan2575]

I know it's a typo but I find The Ditty Dozen both funny and intriguing.

Oops. LOL

[Trini]

As much as I am beginning to like Supergirl a bit more (Cat Grant being my favorite character), I honestly wish CBS or Berlanti went in a different direction for a new female-led superhero series. I understand the effort that this show, and Agent Carter, has to being good, but something feels off about them to me. Don't get me wrong, I love Peggy and Kara as characters because of the way the actors portray them and the way the story portrays them as multi-faceted, but the execution of these shows falls a bit flat to me. The best part of Agent Carter was when Peggy and Jarvis (and the Howling Commandos) went on missions together while Peggy dealt with the mourning of Steve. The best parts, in my opinion, of Supergirl are when Kara learns to gain the emotional confidence to be Supergirl or when we see the different sides of Cat Grant in her relationship with Kara. These parts are genuine and character-driven, but have one thing in common: they are not what the EPs and the show have been pushing at us. Both of the shows stress the idea of a girl working in this male-dominated field, but I believe that plots centered around this idea are actually where the shows fall flat.

 

Just take a look at Jessica Jones and AoS (although AoS is more of an ensemble than a female-led show). Both focus on character rather than pushing an idea, giving receptive characters and story lines and overall making a better-executed show. Some people argue that audiences might not be receptive to female-led superhero shows (looking at the low-rated AoS, AC, and now declining Supergirl), but I believe that audiences are just not receptive to poor execution that these shows sometimes have. The rather difficult thing about this is that instead of focusing on the actual problems behind not capturing the audience (the writing, the plotting, the execution), networks, and sometimes audiences, are quick to blame the female aspect of it instead. Female-led shows do have an unfair higher standard to live up to in terms of execution, but I don't like it when shows proclaim that they have definitely changed the superhero genre when in actuality their own quality has held them back (AC, Supergirl). If you want to have a female-led superhero show, have quality female characters and story lines that support them as characters (JJ and AoS) without having to push this female ideal show behind it.

 

...

 

I wouldn't say the show was flawless, but I didn't see any major problems with Agent Carter. It was one of the better (if not best) of the comic book shows last season. About the bolded: because of the setting, I think that would be have to emphasized about Peggy in AC. I might agree with you a little more about Supergirl, though.

 

For me, one of Supergirl's problems is that it might follow too closely the formula of the other Berlanti superhero shows.

[statsgirl]

As much as I enjoyed Agent Carter, it was pretty bad in terms of female characters.  There was Peggy and then there was ..... a recurring friend from the diner.  And a female villain. Meanwhile there were four male agents, Jarvis, Stark, and a guest appearance by the all male Howling Commandos.  It's a female-led show but almost everyone she's leading is male.  It's very common in TV (e.g. The Closer) but in terms of showing realistic female strengths, it's a cheat to me.  I enjoyed seeing Peggy on a mission with the Howling Commandos but she was basically a female character taking on the role of a man.  Kind of like in the 60s and 70s when women first entered the business world and had to wear three piece suits (I remember them with a shudder) and act just like a man so people wouldn't freak out.

 

One thing Supergirl does well is pass the Bechdel test repeatedly.  There is Kara of course, and her sister Alex, and her female boss Cat Grant.  Both the Kara/Cat and Kara/Alex relationships are more important and more interesting than Kara's relationship with either Winn or Jimmy. And in the Thanksgiving episode, Alex got to tell her mother the speech we've all longed to give to our parents "Why did you treat me this way?"

 

It's ironic since Agent Carter is EP'd by two women, and Supergirl by two men.  Or maybe it's because Berlanti and Kreisburg are men that they have the freedom to put in real female characters rather than pseudo-men.

Edited November 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

I think Jessica Jones is the best female led show out there right now. I hope more shows can follow suit. The lead was a woman, her best friend was a woman, her sometimes boss was a woman, Jessica was helping a woman and their stories were their's and their's alone. The men helped but not because the women couldn't do anything. It constantly passed the Bechdel test, since they rarely ever talked about the men in fact most of the men were always talking about Jessica when they had scenes together. 

 

The Jess and Trish relationship was probably the most real female friendship I've seen on tv. 

[Trini]

One thing Supergirl does well is pass the Bechdel test repeatedly.  There is Kara of course, and her sister Alex, and her female boss Cat Grant.  Both the Kara/Cat and Kara/Alex relationships are more important and more interesting than Kara's relationship with either Winn or Jimmy. And in the Thanksgiving episode, Alex got to tell her mother the speech we've all longed to give to our parents "Why did you treat me this way?"

 

It's ironic since Agent Carter is EP'd by two women, and Supergirl by two men.  Or maybe it's because Berlanti and Kreisburg are men that they have the freedom to put in real female characters rather than pseudo-men.

 

Supergirl has four EPs and two are women. Ali Adler and Kreisberg are the main writers, I believe.

[NumberCruncher]

As much as I enjoyed Agent Carter, it was pretty bad in terms of female characters.  There was Peggy and then there was ..... a recurring friend from the diner.  And a female villain. Meanwhile there were four male agents, Jarvis, Stark, and a guest appearance by the all male Howling Commandos.  It's a female-led show but almost everyone she's leading is male.  It's very common in TV (e.g. The Closer) but in terms of showing realistic female strengths, it's a cheat to me.  I enjoyed seeing Peggy on a mission with the Howling Commandos but she was basically a female character taking on the role of a man.  Kind of like in the 60s and 70s when women first entered the business world and had to wear three piece suits (I remember them with a shudder) and act just like a man so people wouldn't freak out.

 

One thing Supergirl does well is pass the Bechdel test repeatedly.  There is Kara of course, and her sister Alex, and her female boss Cat Grant.  Both the Kara/Cat and Kara/Alex relationships are more important and more interesting than Kara's relationship with either Winn or Jimmy. And in the Thanksgiving episode, Alex got to tell her mother the speech we've all longed to give to our parents "Why did you treat me this way?"

 

It's ironic since Agent Carter is EP'd by two women, and Supergirl by two men.  Or maybe it's because Berlanti and Kreisburg are men that they have the freedom to put in real female characters rather than pseudo-men.

Yeah, but you can't really compare Agent Carter to the other female-led superhero shows because it has certain gender constraints that the others don't due to the period in which it is set. The reason Peggy is leading a bunch of male agents is because in the 40s the military/spy/business world would have been ridiculously male-dominated. I think that naturally has to be a big part of Peggy's arc to make the show somewhat realistic, since she not only has to face the challenge of the dangerous threats but also the sexism that comes from being a strong female in a male-dominated society that openly fights against that notion.

[statsgirl]

I see your point but other shows have been able to overcome their historical situation. Miss Fisher Mysteries, in spite of being set in the 1920s, manages an almost equal split between male and female characters.  I haven't see much of Partners in Crime (Tommy and Tuppence Beresford) but I've never felt a lack of female characters.  The Bletchley Circle is about women who worked in Bletchley Park during the war.

 

I see why the Howling Commandos are all male but there were also women in the forces in those days as well as women spies.  Part of the show is that Peggy is the smartest one in the office but they keep sending her to get coffee but surely there must be at least one other woman working there, if only to do the paperwork and typing.  If nothing else, give Peggy a female friend she can do missions with, someone who functions like Jarvis outside of the military.  Sometimes it feels like all the points the show gets for being about a female lead get lost because almost every other character is a man.

[Genki]

I liked Peggy & Angie's relationship in Agent Carter.

 

I think Peggy was closed off in S1 because she was mourning, had to hide her job, she doesn't quite fit in being a Brit in NY and being (one of?) the only female who is not in Administration. It doesn't feel wrong to me sadly because, in my department there are 2 women, me and the Administration lady. I spend heaps of my working time interaction with only males. We (me and the Ladies in my division) make an effort to interact with each other and often it for reasons unrelated to work. So because AC is set in the 40's in a male dominated area, I can understand a lot of her workplace interaction are with only men.

 

I really like AC and I wonder how it will play out being set in LA S2. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Genki

[BkWurm1]

The Bletchley Circle is about women who worked in Bletchley Park during the war.

 

Except the part where they were actually valued workers all happens in flashbacks during the war when necessity made them look past gender to brains.  The show itself is more about the indignities of being forced since then to pretend they were nothing special, of never being allowed credit for what they'd accomplished and forced to use their brains in secret thus putting themselves and others at greater risk and ultimately one of the best and brightest choses to follow her man and just remain a housewife.  I loved the show but it was depressing as hell when it came to female empowerment, IMO.  They only had it if the men around them acknowledged it, otherwise they called them crazy or just ignored them until they couldn't and then afterward told them go home and bake a cake. 

 

The show did great with female friendships and showcases their brains though, maybe that was what you meant.

Edited November 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

Oh, I agree about the lack of female empowerment. It was a continuing theme in history from the time the women defended the castle (albeit wearing a chastity belt which must have sucked every month and been horrible during a stomach flu) as the men went off to the Crusades, that women became more powerful during wartime when the men were gone, only to lose it when they returned.

 

So I understand why the office is full of men and why Peggy is treated as the scut worker.  And while the Peggy/Angie relationship was good, Angie was in only 6 episodes and it was a small relationship compared to those Peggy had with Jarvis, Stark or any of the men in her office. 

 

Next season, the show is adding Kurtwood Smith, Currie Graham, Wynn Everett, Reggie Austin and Lotte Verbeek as Ana Jarvis.  Graham and Everett

are playing villains

, So still overwhelmingly male and still limiting Peggy in terms of her potential relationships with other women.

 

I like the show and I enjoyed it more than many parts of Arrow s3 but I don't think that it should be given kudos as being a truly feminist show.  It can do better.

Edited November 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[Velocity23]

So seems Berlanti said no to Flash/Supergirl crossover according to SpoilerTV

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/11/supergirl-flash-cross-over-rumour.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1448921940

[Morrigan2575]

Technically he said "not at this point" which in Hollywood terms....

Edited November 30, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[hogwash]

So seems Berlanti said no to Flash/Supergirl crossover according to SpoilerTV

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/11/supergirl-flash-cross-over-rumour.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1448921940

I hope it happens eventually. Earth 543 or whatever. I want to see them to race. 

 

But I hate when female-lead shows have a mostly male supporting cast. It reminds me of when those POC-lead sitcoms that barely have any nonwhite people. How does that even happen? Shouldn't they have a couple of family members or friends that look like them?? Bleh, baby steps...

[AyChihuahua]

Pretty cool parallel fight scene on Supergirl tonight.

 

Also, Mrs. Channing Tatum is GORGEOUS.

Edited December 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

She is gorgeous but I was hoping she would take that plane out of National City.  All I could think of was "Poor Lois, growing up in a family with those two." When Kara told James that she could never have what he and Lucy had, I thought "A crappy relationship?"

 

Agree the fight sequence was cool but it didn't make any sense because how would Alex and Kara be making the exact same moves at the exact same time?  If the robot was working independently, then it's more understandable.

[AyChihuahua]

I honestly don't pay a whole lot of attention.  I have never liked the actress who plays Supergirl, and have no interest in any of her romantic or even familial relationships.  I saw her on Glee, and she's the Platonic ideal of a dishrag to me (as an actress, I'm sure she's a very nice person).  So I pay no attention to anything except the fights and Cat's barbs.

[quarks]

So far the Lanes have been so awful on Supergirl that I'm beginning to wonder if Berlanti just has something against not just canonical love interests, but their entire families.  Although, in all fairness to Laurel, she hasn't quite been as awful as General Lane was tonight. Close, but not quite.

[BkWurm1]

So far the Lanes have been so awful on Supergirl that I'm beginning to wonder if Berlanti just has something against not just canonical love interests, but their entire families.  Although, in all fairness to Laurel, she hasn't quite been as awful as General Lane was tonight. Close, but not quite.

To be fair, General Lane and Lucy are general awful in the comics. 

[statsgirl]

Original Recipe comics Lucy was pretty bad.

 

http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-120-i-hate-you-so-much-lucy-lane/

 

ETA:  He's James in National City because he wants to be taken seriously but Lucy still calls him Jimmy.  Just as he's Oliver now but Laurel still calls him Ollie.  Keep the universe but it's time to separate the tropes.

Edited December 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[GreatAtBoats]

Except I don't recall Oliver ever saying he wanted to be called "Oliver" only.

[EmilyBettFan]

You have to admit though anyone who says Ollie makes him sound like he's 12 and they sound childish also. I can understand Thea but everyone else should stop. It's not what he goes by anyway. It just makes everything sound so juvenile especially if they are talking about serious matters.

[jaytee1812]

Here's a suggestion... Laurel dies at the end of this season.  Sara returns to Arrow and changes her name to Black Canary to honor her deceased sister.  She subsequently mentors or adopts a young Asian female orphan (future White Canary).

The Flash already has a White Saviour storyline coming up, not sure Arrow needs one.

Although more than one woman of colour over three shows would nice.

[jay741982]

To be fair, General Lane and Lucy are general awful in the comics.

I thought I read somewhere that In the comics that Lucy was Kara's Best friend? I do remember not liking General Lane and Lucy on Smallville though Edited December 1, 2015 by jay741982

[Trini]

The Flash already has a White Saviour storyline coming up, not sure Arrow needs one. ...

 

It does? Do you mean with

Wally West

?

[jaytee1812]

It does? Do you mean with

Wally West

?

Yes, although I really hope I'm wrong.

[Trini]

So far it seems like

he is going to be interacting with the Wests mainly

; but these writers, man.

 

Anyway,

 

[nksarmi]

So is this where we talk about the fact that they revealed

Oliver's son

on Flash!?!?!!?

Edited December 2, 2015 by nksarmi

[quarks]

I think so. And they revealed him with a little Barry Allen action figure, soon to be on sale at a comics store/convention near you!

[wonderwall]

So is this where we talk about the fact that they revealed Oliver's son on Flash!?!?!!?

I AM SO CONFUSED :p People are talking about it in the spoilers one. This one is for other shows (non arrow related I think)...

[nksarmi]

I might take a peek in the spoilers thread - I'm finding that I'm enjoying the season more mostly unspoiled though lol.

[dtissagirl]

So, this is the place to talk crossover, right? The Flash forum is scary, I like you guys way better.

I was surprised at how much ARROW this episode was. Not just in tone, which I expected, but in actual content. Even having DD there for a scene, and Malcolm showing up for the exposition hour [twice!]. I'm now wondering if tomorrow's episode is gonna be a lot more Flash in content too.

P.s. I can believe an immortal dude and a couple with wings better than I can believe Kendra dating nine year old Cisco. Ew.

[apinknightmare]

I AM SO CONFUSED :p People are talking about it in the spoilers one. This one is for other shows (non arrow related I think)...

 

I just posted that one comment

about the kid

over there, because technically it could still be considered a spoiler. And because we're discussing the trailer for tomorrow's ep.

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[nksarmi]

I went in there and spoiled myself a little lol - nope I'm staying out.  I don't think anything would have saved season three for me, but it's probably best for me to only be disappointed retroactively instead of proactively. 

 

Anyway, I'm hoping that once something has aired on either show, it's safe to talk about because I loved Hawkgirl's "birth" but I have to admit, I wasn't expecting

 Oliver's son this early in the series since he obviously WAY to young for a mask...

 

Ok well just in case I will tag my posts... I know other shows are fair game here once they air but I guess since this one is directly Arrow related there is no harm in tagging.  But I do hope they discuss it tomorrow because it would be really weird if the reveal ONLY happened on Flash.

Edited December 2, 2015 by nksarmi

[wonderwall]

So, this is the place to talk crossover, right? The Flash forum is scary, I like you guys way better.

I was surprised at how much ARROW this episode was. Not just in tone, which I expected, but in actual content. Even having DD there for a scene, and Malcolm showing up for the exposition hour [twice!]. I'm now wondering if tomorrow's episode is gonna be a lot more Flash in content too.

P.s. I can believe an immortal dude and a couple with wings better than I can believe Kendra dating nine year old Cisco. Ew.

 

According to Berlanti:

 

 

One of our goals with these eps was to make tonight feel a bit more like an #arrow ep and tomorrow a bit more like an ep of #theflash.

[kismet]

Technically it's still a spoiler right? People are primarily responding to the preview which is why I think its in the spoiler section.

 

Honestly, I was really pleasantly surprised by the Flash Xover episode. All the Team Arrow stuff was tight, didn't even feel like anyone was missing. The bromance between BA & OQ was strong. The Banter was good. No extremely awkward lines or moments. I even liked the Hawk Couple, I have no idea how they fit into the whole FLARROW world - but yeah for a centuries old love triangle. Good luck with that drama.

 

I really did miss Iris, I have no idea why they couldn't write her into a scene or two. She could have been grabbing coffee with BA & OQ in the end. Her investigative skills might have come in handle. I really think they are working up a love triangle between E2 Wells, Caitlin & Jay. Don't know how I feel about that.

[Morrigan2575]

So, this is the place to talk crossover, right? The Flash forum is scary, I like you guys way better.

I was surprised at how much ARROW this episode was. Not just in tone, which I expected, but in actual content. Even having DD there for a scene, and Malcolm showing up for the exposition hour [twice!]. I'm now wondering if tomorrow's episode is gonna be a lot more Flash in content too.

P.s. I can believe an immortal dude and a couple with wings better than I can believe Kendra dating nine year old Cisco. Ew.

Apparently GB tweeted during the episode that they wanted this to feel like an Arrow episode and tomorrow night as a Flash episode

[apinknightmare]

Someone on The Flash forum mentioned Iris had a line. I totally missed her. What scene was she in?

[Morrigan2575]

Someone on The Flash forum mentioned Iris had a line. I totally missed her. What scene was she in?

Group scene towards beginning when Barry/Cisco brought Kendra back to STAR Labs

[Guest]

I liked the episode mostly. I really enjoy Barry/Oliver moments and Barry/Felicity friendship is just so cute. But I think my fave part was Thea just shooting Vandal Savage and getting shit done. YASSssssss Thea! Sorry but I'm really enjoying her this season and dude needed to be handled and she did what needed to be done.

 

Also Olicity were so perfect. KILL ME.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I saw Berlanti's tweets, and I was expecting the switcheroo in tone and locations, but not really in content. This was such an Arrow episode, even the Central City B-plot felt like the flashbacks interrupting the A plot at worst times.

[nksarmi]

Someone on The Flash forum mentioned Iris had a line. I totally missed her. What scene was she in?

I missed it too, and I'm scared to ask because the lack of Iris on Flash is such a sore spot for Flash fans.  If anyone here can fill me in, I'd be grateful. :)

[apinknightmare]

I guess I'm in the minority, because this felt very Arrow on The Flash to me. Everyone was lighter, making jokes. It was Star City dark in setting, but light in tone IMO.

I missed it too, and I'm scared to ask because the lack of Iris on Flash is such a sore spot for Flash fans.  If anyone here can fill me in, I'd be grateful. :)

 

@Morrigan2575 posted the answer right below my question. :)

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I can't take Vandal Savage seriously because his voice is too squeaky. Sorry, LOT, your villain sounds like Doctor Evil on helium.

Also, I miss Daniel Jackson in the role of Hawkman.

[apinknightmare]

I can't take Vandal Savage seriously because his voice is too squeaky. Sorry, LOT, your villain sounds like Doctor Evil on helium.

 

OMG HE DOES. He needs a Mr. Bigglesworth.

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Soulfire]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Loved the dynamics between Oliver and Felicity in this ep. Barry and Felicity were great, also. AND MORE FELICITY AND CISCO SCENES, PLEASE.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Soulfire

[dtissagirl]

It completely ruins any kind of menace he's trying to go for, because every time he spoke anything, I was LOLing my ass off.

[nksarmi]

I guess I'm in the minority, because this felt very Arrow on The Flash to me. Everyone was lighter, making jokes. It was Star City dark in setting, but light in tone IMO.

 

@Morrigan2575 posted the answer right below my question. :)

Yea I did go back up and read that and I still can't picture her in that scene.  What they say about how they write Iris might be correct.

Oh and that Felicity/Barry gig reminded me of something else I thought when they were all in the loft - even when Olicity is canon, Barry is dating Patty, and Felicity and Barry are being nothing. but. friends......she still has more chemistry with him (in my opinion) than any other woman they have paired him with.

 

Anyway...I do love that the magnetic arrow was her idea though - she really is cute.  And I love "make smart decisions" - so say we all Felicity, so say we all. :)

[SonofaBiscuit]

Sometimes I think about how we could have had Barry and Felicity in season 3 instead of Ray and Felicity.  *cries silently*  Their friendship is so sweet.  I wish I could bring myself to watch The Flash, but I don't want anything to do with the shipping stuff over there.

 

Patty was 100% fine, so I don't get all of the negativity over that character...and yum, I still find Teddy Sears very attractive.  

 

Whoo, boy.  You LoT watchers are in for some really iffy acting.  I wasn't impressed by Kendra, Hawkman (can't even remember the guy's name), or Vidal Sassoon.  Hawkman, in particular, is SUPER DUPER bland.    

[nksarmi]

I am almost positive Hawkman is going to bite it on LoT so I'm not too worried about him.  I like Kendra and I thought the special effects for Savage were more than sufficient so I think he will be ok.  I do agree with whoever it was upthread who said they thought Savage would be bigger because I do think he seems a bit more "massive" in the comics.

[calliope1975]

Whoo, boy.  You LoT watchers are in for some really iffy acting.  I wasn't impressed by Kendra, Hawkman (can't even remember the guy's name), or Vidal Sassoon.  Hawkman, in particular, is SUPER DUPER bland.    

 

I'm still planning on watching LOT, but I can't disagree. I wasn't impressed either by any of them. My only knowledge of VS is from the Justice League cartoon, but I remember being more intimidated by a 2D image. Barrowman bugs a bit now, but MM was a decent villain when he was the Dark Archer. Each season the quality of villain seems to decrease. (I'm reserving judgment on DD until he does more.)