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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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tarotx

tarotx

I think the issue might be rather one thinks Laurel, having little to do with Oliver, should even be on Arrow and deserves her own story. Sara's resurrection was Laurel's story. Sara's barely been in her own mind let a lone storyline. So they used something they needed to happen for LOT but the focus and purpose was to give Laurel a storyline.

 

It did affect other characters and gave as a glimpse to Thea's worst Nightmare (with more of that to come). Laurel is a weak link but her actress is still considered the female lead.  That said it's not really LOT because I think whatever story Laurel people feel it doesn't affect Oliver and bogs down the show. 

 

Ray hasn't even been on the show yet. They are using something they need to happen for LOT to give EBR screen time and introduce Mr Terrific. 

 

Imo.

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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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nksarmi

nksarmi

kismet - thanks for the discussion because I think I have finally hit the nail on the head to why I am so glad they did the resurrection of Sara as part of several episodes on Arrow.  I edited my post above but I think it basically all comes down to Thea for me.  I know she isn't the star of the show, but I guess I was so horrified over what they did to her last season - mind raping her to kill a friend - that I almost need this reset to enjoy Arrow as much as I want to.

 

Sure on Flash, all the LoT setup is kind of superfluous as is the Ray save because I don't really think he has that much left to contribute to Felicity's story before he's off to the spin-off.  But I need this issue with Thea and Sara resolved and Sara is so important to so many characters on Arrow that it wouldn't have been as satisfying if they just brought her back on the spin-off.  Sure, they made Laurel look awful in the process, but I never needed Sara back for Laurel.  I need it for Sara and Thea.  I hope the next couple of episodes don't disappoint me.

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kismet

kismet

kismet - thanks for the discussion because I think I have finally hit the nail on the head to why I am so glad they did the resurrection of Sara as part of several episodes on Arrow.  I edited my post above but I think it basically all comes down to Thea for me.  I know she isn't the star of the show, but I guess I was so horrified over what they did to her last season - mind raping her to kill a friend - that I almost need this reset to enjoy Arrow as much as I want to.

 

Sure on Flash, all the LoT setup is kind of superfluous as is the Ray save because I don't really think he has that much left to contribute to Felicity's story before he's off to the spin-off.  But I need this issue with Thea and Sara resolved and Sara is so important to so many characters on Arrow that it wouldn't have been as satisfying if they just brought her back on the spin-off.  Sure, they made Laurel look awful in the process, but I never needed Sara back for Laurel.  I need it for Sara and Thea.  I hope the next couple of episodes don't disappoint me.

No problem! I enjoyed it :). I actually don't mind that they did SL over a few episodes. To me she directly relates & is interwoven with OQ's narrative. They both died together and began challenging hero's journeys as a result. A lot of who OQ was and who became is tied up with his decision to bring SL on that ill-fated sex cruise. TBH, I was looking fwd to SL's resurrection story. I'm just really disappointed they Laurelized it and as a result the execution fell many beats short of the emotional impact it could have had. I'm with you on hoping the next few eps of T&S do not disappoint. I just can't get my hopes up anymore, so long as the vortex of bad LL writing exists anywhere near the S/T plot line.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

I personally think they are going to use either FLASH or ARROW to lead into it. FLASH has the higher ratings, so it might draw a bigger audience & therefore is the most logical pick.

After The Flash was my pick, but the CW doesn't always do what I've expected. I hope they put it behind either Arrow or Flash, though, to give it a better chance of succeeding. Pairing it with JtV just seems like an odd pairing. But if LoT is a hit, it might give JtV enough of a boost to save it. Not that I care - I don't watch it - but that might be their thinking. Personally I'm just worried that LoT might not be the self-starter that Flash was, so I'd prefer it to have some support for a while.

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kismet

kismet

(edited)

But back to Thea - I guess I will know how much I like the Sara resurrection plot after the next episode when she should interact and bond with Thea.  I think this aspect of the LoT plot is very important to me - probably more so than a lot of fans - because I was really, really, really bothered by the fact that Merlyn mind-raped Thea to kill Sara to begin with.  And I was equally bothered that Oliver prevented Thea from getting justice for that by saving him from Ra's.  At least the resurrection plot will - on some level - make amends for this and take this horrible deed off Thea's shoulders.  And I do have to say that without LoT - I don't think the show would have ever fixed that.

I'm not sure what they would have done. But I think LoT altered their plan for MM entirely. We'll never know.... But there is a tonal shift in how they were writing MM & RAs in s3 that can be pinpointed around the time that LoT w/ SL was catching some steam. So I wonder how they would have done it and still kept JB. But I think they would have found a way to get TQ some level of justice. Personally, I think we would have found out the TQ was never the actual murderer. That is was all part of a plan. MM per usual always has plays up his sleeve. It's just a shame, because part of me is dying to know what ARROW s3 would have been like without it preparing the way for LoT. Another common theory is that OQ would have be the one in the LP and I wonder what that would have done to the story. There are so many paths untaken. I can't be bitter towards LoT, but it does bother me to know the influence it had on ARROW.

Edited by kismet
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nksarmi

nksarmi

I'm not sure what they would have done. But I think LoT altered their plan for MM entirely. We'll never know.... But there is a tonal shift in how they were writing MM & RAs in s3 that can be pinpointed around the time that LoT w/ SL was catching some steam. So I wonder how they would have done it and still kept JB. But I think they would have found a way to get TQ some level of justice. Personally, I think we would have found out the TQ was never the actual murderer. That is was all part of a plan. MM per usual always has plays up his sleeve. It's just a shame, because part of me is dying to know what ARROW s3 would have been like without it preparing the way for LoT. Another common theory is that OQ would have be the one in the LP and I wonder what that would have done to the story. There are so many paths untaken. I can't be bitter towards LoT, but it does bother me to know the influence it had on ARROW.

 

Hmmmm anything other than Oliver being happy with Felicity and getting to achieve some kind of wholeness in his life this season might have made me walk away from Arrow like I've walked away from Once.  If they had it in their heads to LP Oliver and do the same plot with him that they are doing with Thea this season - I might have checked out for good. 

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FurryFury

FurryFury

(edited)
Hmmmm anything other than Oliver being happy with Felicity and getting to achieve some kind of wholeness in his life this season might have made me walk away from Arrow like I've walked away from Once.

 

I've dropped Once myself, but I'd say one thing: it doesn't matter to me what exactly happens as long as I think that the writing's good. I don't think Once's writing has been good for a long time, and as for Arrow, I've had to drop it because of a lot of issues, but they were all caused by bad writing as well. I can handle awful cinematography, even acting, CGI, but writing is my #1 reason for watching, always.

 

As for LOT, this is something I'm hoping will be good, and it doesn't only star one of my favorite characters in the later years, it actually has a cool premise as well. I already care way more about it than about Arrow or The Flash, TBH.

Edited by FurryFury
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Delphi

Delphi

(edited)

Rewatching the last episode of The Flash while teleworking, and I think I love the new crabby-ass Harrison Wells. "Crisco." And Cisco's line "But you're just a diiiiiick" kills me every time.

I agree, he's hilarious. Mostly watching for him actually.

"I didn't kill your friend Ricky. "

"Ronnie."

"Yeah, him either."

Edited by Delphi
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tarotx

tarotx

We saw the video of Thea killing Sara. We know the killer was small like Thea. I don't think that was going to change. Oliver might have been in the Pit but I don't see why that had to change for LOT. Sara didn't even need to be in the PIT. They had other options than to change Oliver's journey. I think the plan was changed with them chickening out with making Oliver "evil" earlier. I think the original plan was for Oliver to be dead for a while and coming back earlier as Al sah him. I think Malcolm, Nyssa and Thea would have been his targets. So I think chickening out, weakening but not scraping the storyline is what happen to Arrow S3. Not LOT set up. Arrow 3a leads Oliver to Nanda Parbat and sacrificing himself. Season 3b did the same thing. Maybe the CW was unamused and MG had to flesh out another way to bring in Al sah him. 

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KirkB

KirkB

What I don't get is if they are going to have story lines on one show concerning characters who are going to be featured in another show, why not make them PART of the narrative instead of separate from it? Rather than taking Laurel and Thea out of an episode to bring Sara back in a separate plot line while Oliver and the others are dealing with Dark, have Dark dig up Sara's body (for reasons of his own) and bring her back using his own Pit or perhaps tech he got from Savage, who just so happens to be one of the other members of HIVE? Then they could make her the White Canary who they have to fight as part of the actual story of the show before clearing her head and bringing her back to the fold before shipping her off with Hunter and friends. You could do the same thing over on Flash, have Zoom in cahoots with Savage or some other future LoT villain.

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

Laurel needed to be made to do the stupid? I mean we have to have that every season....

 

I read a story spec where they had Nyssa put Sara in the pit back when they first met. Sara was made into a female Resurrection man. She could die but eventually resurrect (which was what I wanted so I was searching for stories and I found this spec but I can't find it again to read the actual fan fiction :( ). And the Sara on Lot was our Sara from the future come back with Rip. She's years and years older with many many deaths and lost loves ones a long the way. It had promise. Though that wasn't Oliver linked either but it could have been a cool drop into the Flarrow Crossover or even the LOT pilot. 

 

I do wish they had a Malcolm or Rip resurrect her for this current storyline of bloodlust.

Edited by tarotx
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nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

I would have been exceedingly happy if they amped up the Thea crazy, gave her nightmares, and Thea HERSELF demanded Malcolm put Sara in the pit as a last ditch effort to deal with the guilt of killing a friend and Laurel knew nothing about it until crazy Sara showed up in Starling City.  Because while that would still be selfish and wrong, Thea's motivations for such a thing would make sense and would crush my heart and I think WH could have acted the hell out of it.

 

I also would have enjoyed it if the thing that Darkh was holding over Quentin was that he had already brought Sara back and was blackmailing Lance with the idea that he could "fix" Sara as long as Lance did what he was told.  Then he could go to TA for help getting Sara back and we still get Constantine.  Since I think Quentin is ending up in that grave this year, I think it would have fit his story the best.  ****odd sidenote - I have this weird desire to put random "y"s in people's names after spending a summer commenting on the GoT boards.

 

But yea, I'm still happy she's resurrected even if there were better ways to do it.

Edited by nksarmi
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

You know I have to say that I don't get all the bitching about the LoT setup (not saying anyone is wrong to bitch - just that I don't understand it).  I know I'm alone here, but for goodness sake, what would we be getting if they weren't doing the setup for LoT?

Hopefully consistent characterization.  They did a great job with Barry Allen but starting with Ray Palmer in 3x01, every time a new mask comes on, the existing characters start acting stupid so they can fit in.  Oliver not turning MM in in 3x04 so that there would be Ra's and a reason for Al Sahim, not to mention Thea's mask; the insta  Canary and now these this arc for getting Sara back has made both Laurel and Thea problematic.

 

I don't mind filler episodes if it's the real characters and not the pod ones.

Edited by statsgirl
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

 

You know I have to say that I don't get all the bitching about the LoT setup (not saying anyone is wrong to bitch - just that I don't understand it).

You'll probably get a better quality of discussion if you don't call other posters' comments "bitching."

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statsgirl

statsgirl

I couldn't watch Flash but WTH?  That doesn't make sense to have Robert as the Arrow.  He's too old and he's too set in his ways.

 

Also he was a coward to shoot himself in the head and make Oliver restitute his sins.

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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

Darn it.  Flash just did a Batman and confirmed their Arrow is Robert Queen and it was Oliver who died on the island.  I was so hoping their Arrow would be Tommy.

beat me to it.

I now wonder who is on team Arrow, is Diggle still part of it? what about Felicity? was Moira still part of the undertaking, is she still alive? Did Moira still die, or did Thea die instead? is Malcolm still the Dark Archer, or is it Tommy?

Damn it, these are questions I need answers to!!

 

Wait!! on Arrow Roy ended up taking the blame and unmasked himself as the arrow instead of Oliver.. is it possible that earth 2 Robert is actually pulling a Roy?

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

(edited)

What's age got to do with it? He can still get in good enough shape and watching his die and going through something similar to Oliver could totally change his ways.

 

Though I am sad that we can't explore the E2 version of the Arrow characters, hopefully a different Earth will come up next season for them.

Edited by Primal Slayer
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nksarmi

nksarmi

I couldn't watch Flash but WTH?  That doesn't make sense to have Robert as the Arrow.  He's too old and he's too set in his ways.

 

Also he was a coward to shoot himself in the head and make Oliver restitute his sins.

 

On one of the DC Earth's - didn't Thomas Wayne become batman after his wife and son died?  I think this is no more than a homage to that - I really don't think they put any more thought into it than that.  Which is a shame because it would have been great if in some alternative universe a Sara told an Oliver to kiss off, told Laurel that Oliver was trying to cheat on her, that Laurel dumped Oliver, and that Oliver called Tommy for some bro time and the end result led to Tommy becoming the Arrow squaring off against his dad.  Or well, it would have been great in my head.

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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

(edited)

I couldn't watch Flash but WTH?  That doesn't make sense to have Robert as the Arrow.  He's too old and he's too set in his ways.

 

Also he was a coward to shoot himself in the head and make Oliver restitute his sins.

 

Each earth version is a slightly different version of a different one. a small change is all that is needed to make a huge difference.. like enough food to last both Robert and Oliver to at least make it to the island (where Oliver may have died at the hands of IVO or whoever), or Oliver dying or appears to have drown- a-la Sara.

 

What's age got to do with it? He can still get in good enough shape and watching his die and going through something similar to Oliver could totally change his ways.

 

Though I am sad that we can't explore the E2 version of the Arrow characters, hopefully a different Earth will come up next season for them.

Malcolm is a great example of age not being an matter of importance.

They can still bring up E-2 Arrow people..

Edited by foreverevolving
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

What's age got to do with it? He can still get in good enough shape and watching his die and going through something similar to Oliver could totally change his ways.

 

Age has a lot to do with it. Someone 60 (Jamey Sheridan is 64) has slower reflexes and heals more slowly.  There may be body strength but there is less agility and eyesight problems especially in the dark.  Depending on the person, there may be hearing problems too.

 

Tamora Pierce has a great line in Knight when Alanna says "Your body takes the wounds and the hurt and when you're thirty, it hands you the bill."

 

I can believe in the Lazarus Pit more easily than I could believe Robert Queen became the Arrow.

Edited by statsgirl
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

Yeah, it's massively unrealistic to think a guy who's 55-60, even a guy in overall good physical condition, is going to be able to jump off rooftops, etc.  It's a simple biological fact.  And when is the last time we saw MM do anything like what Oliver did in S1?  He never parkoured, etc. 

 

Also, anything MM does from the time he became RAG forward doesn't count, because the very first thing he would have done is take a soak in the gross human soup of the LP.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

MM was able to take on Oliver because he had a lot more training than Oliver did.  At this point, with Oliver's LoA training and without the healing from the LP., my money's on Oliver even with the lousy scorecard he's had this season.

 

Speaking as someone closer to Robert's age than to Oliver's, nope.  I can't believe it.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

MM was able to take on Oliver because he had a lot more training than Oliver did.  At this point, with Oliver's LoA training and without the healing from the LP., my money's on Oliver even with the lousy scorecard he's had this season.

 

Speaking as someone closer to Robert's age than to Oliver's, nope.  I can't believe it.

And MM started training a long time before.  Around 20 years prior to present-day S1, when he would have been in his 30s.  I mean, there's a reason most football quarterbacks retire by 40-ish.

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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

(edited)

MM was able to take on Oliver because he had a lot more training than Oliver did.  At this point, with Oliver's LoA training and without the healing from the LP., my money's on Oliver even with the lousy scorecard he's had this season.

 

Speaking as someone closer to Robert's age than to Oliver's, nope.  I can't believe it.

Again.. it's all about variations! small changes, even the smallest one, have ripple effects. We don't know what Robert have been through on the Island, for all we know he was the one who joined LoA instead of Sara, or was injected with the mirakoru, or a thousands other things that may have happened.

in the Batman - is - Bruce - dad variation that batman also used guns and other things Bruce doesn't or wouldn't.

and BTW almost anyone, even people Robert's age, can become as good as Oliver if they go through the same almost non-stop training as Oliver did, let alone Sara's.

Also, just because YOU can't do it, doesn't mean someone else your age wouldn't. Trust me- as a former soldier- you learn and master some skills very quickly when you know your life depends on them.

Edited by foreverevolving
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

(edited)

Do we know much about Robert's lifestyle? Could Robert already have been into Archery and that is why Thea was into it?

He was a 55-60 year old CEO.  He'd be more likely to be fighting high blood pressure and triglycerides than Triad members.

 

Also, just because YOU can't do it, doesn't mean someone else your age wouldn't. Trust me- as a former soldier- you learn and master some skills very quickly when you know your life depends on them.

How many new Navy SEALS are there each year who are over 50?  Exactly zero.  Youth is a boon, no matter how we would like to deny it.

Edited by AyChihuahua
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nksarmi

nksarmi

I like forever's idea that Robert just outted himself to save the real Arrow - whomever that may be (hopefully Tommy).  Maybe in that world Robert survived and went through some of the stuff that Oliver did and perhaps was even recruited by Waller but at the same time Tommy - after losing his mom, having a distant dad, and losing his best friend, somehow took up martial arts to process.  Then when Robert returned, he recruited Tommy and trained him to be the Arrow and together they worked to stop Malcolm's Undertaking.  Then eventually Robert outted himself to protect Tommy.  Ok works for me - I'm going with that.

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

Did the Flash go into detail about how similar Robert Queen Green Arrow was supposedly to Oliver Queen Green Arrow? If not I don't think we can assume much. A 50-55 year healthy fit man can learn other active things though nothing like what Oliver learned.  It was Robert who wanted the names off the list to save Staring. Even Tommy as the Arrow would be a different version than Oliver because he wouldn't have been on the Island so his experience would be different. Though I do like the idea of a returned from the island Robert recruiting someone else. Maybe Tommy (as revenge to Malcolm) or Thea (since she was already into Archery in the pilot). 

Edited by tarotx
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

(edited)

Did the Flash go into detail about how similar Robert Queen Green Arrow was supposedly to Oliver Queen Green Arrow? If not I don't think we can assume much. A 50-55 year healthy fit man can learn other active things though nothing like what Oliver learned.  It was Robert who wanted the names off the list to save Staring. Even Tommy as the Arrow would be a different version than Oliver because he wouldn't have been on the Island so his experience would be different. Though I do like the idea of a returned from the island Robert recruiting someone else. Maybe Tommy (as revenge to Malcolm) or Thea (since she was already into Archery in the pilot). 

I doubt we'll learn details, but it's a pretty good guess he's the same age as regular Robert, and while he could be decent at archery or whatever, he couldn't start that whole vigilante thing at 50-55.  I mean, all you guys who think it's fine, wait until you're 50, and then take up karate, parkour, and skateboarding.  Let me know what your knees and back tell you.  

 

Again, most NFL quarterbacks retire around 40.  They are prime athletes, but the body can't take that kind of abuse as it ages.

Edited by AyChihuahua
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Guest

Guest

I don't really watch The Flash anymore but I guess I can buy Robert being the Arrow. Kind of. Wasn't comic GA much older anyway? I know he was a lot older than Dinah. Also on that note, I'm surprised E2 Oliver wasn't married to E2 Laurel. I would have thought AK would have jumped at the chance for that. Haha.

 

Are all these E2 characters and mentions as messy as it sounds?

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

Comic GA was in his 40s before the reboot. In Year One he was in his late 30s/early 40s before he became GA and had a natural ability with a bow, basically no training at all.

The 52 reboot (at least the Zero Year tie in) had Oliver's backstory mimic Arrow's (sort of) stranded on an island, hunted by mercenaries, tortured to toughen him up. He had been trained with the bow as a kid but never cared much about it and only perfected the use after needing it to survive. Of course it turned out that Robert Queen was responsible for everything that happened to Ollie on the Island and infact was Ollie's chief torturer.

I'd love it if Jamie Sheridan came back as Robert Queen (Earth 2) and they had been be GA to Oliver's GA. That would be kind of fun, just no Emiko barely warmed up to that character.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

I doubt we'll learn details, but it's a pretty good guess he's the same age as regular Robert, and while he could be decent at archery or whatever, he couldn't start that whole vigilante thing at 50-55.  I mean, all you guys who think it's fine, wait until you're 50, and then take up karate, parkour, and skateboarding.  Let me know what your knees and back tell you.  

 

Again, most NFL quarterbacks retire around 40.  They are prime athletes, but the body can't take that kind of abuse as it ages.

umm I actually know several 50+ people, and at least two of them took on martial arts after they turned 45!, one is really, and I mean Really! good. so yes i can buy someone over 50 being a good fighter.

 

I don't really watch The Flash anymore but I guess I can buy Robert being the Arrow. Kind of. Wasn't comic GA much older anyway? I know he was a lot older than Dinah. Also on that note, I'm surprised E2 Oliver wasn't married to E2 Laurel. I would have thought AK would have jumped at the chance for that. Haha.

 

Are all these E2 characters and mentions as messy as it sounds?

I don't think so, they haven't really showed much so far. And LoL, even in a parallel universe they rather kill Oliver than leave an opening for a L/O romance.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

They can do whatever they like in comics, but ain't no way 60+-year-old Jamey Sheridan is taking on 10 Triad members and whipping them in hand-to-hand and then jumping off a building. 

 

I'm betting that for Arrow, Earth-2 is not going to be a thing.  At least this season, since they're all focused on magic.

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calliope1975

calliope1975

Bummed that of all the possible AU's for Earth 2's Arrow, the people who get paid lots of money to write creative stories went the old man route. Well, that's one option. Sigh. It wouldn't matter so much except I'm sure, at some point, these Earth 2 folk are going to infect Arrow. May as well set up something interesting. 

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kismet

kismet

I'm just gonna say it now ~ I want the Earth 2 people to stay on FLASH and have nothing to do with ARROW. Perhaps introduce them in an organic crossover, but then they can return to wherever they come from. The AUs in FLASH are actually getting a little repetitive and boring. It's such a cheesy technique to simply reuse your cast in different roles.

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InsertWordHere

InsertWordHere

(edited)

Darn it.  Flash just did a Batman and confirmed their Arrow is Robert Queen and it was Oliver who died on the island.  I was so hoping their Arrow would be Tommy.

I'm not sure how I feel about Robert being the Arrow and Oliver being dead, but I'm happy that they mentioned it because I was just wondering about it last week on this thread. Darn, no Oliver Queen in retro Earth-2 fashion :( That universe has lost a thing of beauty. 

 

Also, from the discussion on the last page: Metropolis, while now resembling New York, was originally Cleveland when Superman debuted as a comic strip in a Cleveland newspaper. They renamed it to Metropolis for the comic books. Why yes, I am from Cleveland and that's why I know this useless bit of trivia.

Edited by InsertWordHere
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