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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

2 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

If Barry and Iris are back together by the end of this episode, does that really count as a break-up? If so, I'll take it. Their "on/off" period lasted two episodes.

Sure, two episodes for the viewers-but how much has passed in "show time" since last week? A week? Two weeks? A few days?

Either way, yes I do consider them having been broken up even if they end up making up and getting back together in tonight's episode.

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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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ruby24

ruby24

17 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Sure, two episodes for the viewers-but how much has passed in "show time" since last week? A week? Two weeks? A few days?

Either way, yes I do consider them having been broken up even if they end up making up and getting back together in tonight's episode.

Yeah, but I just mean, when people were saying no way they'd let them go without a break-up, I figured that meant breaking them up for a whole season or two. If by "break-up," that means they're split for just two episodes here and there, that's fine. 

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

Just now, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but I just mean, when people were saying no way they'd let them go without a break-up, I figured that meant breaking them up for a whole season or two. If by "break-up," that means they're split for just two episodes here and there, that's fine. 

Ah, I see. I never thought Kreisberg would break them up for that long.

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

"We were on a break!!!!"

????

kismet

kismet

On 3/19/2017 at 11:05 AM, calliope1975 said:

One other Flash moment I remembered - when AK said there wouldn't be a speedster villain next year, the audience cheered, and the EPs looked super surprised. Like, how do they not get that doing the same thing over and over again is boring for the audience?

Cmon now, they have based seasons of episodes around the Basic Plot of-

Run Barry Run! Bad Guy runs fast. It's ok to cry BA. Cry for a minute or two, and then Run Barry Run AGAIN - YAY!! BA ran faster than Bad Guy.

Not only is it blowing their minds, but they might be soiling themselves thinking they might actually have to expand the plot. It's probably shock not surprise :)

kismet

kismet

8 hours ago, tv echo said:

Even though Anne Dudek (41) is much older than EBR (25), I also thought of Felicity when this new Flash character was described by TVLine as a quirky genius (posted a page back on this thread)...

The Flash Casts Mad Men Alum as Mysterious New Character
By Rose Moore   Mar. 21, 2017
http://screenrant.com/flash-tv-series-anne-dudek-mad-men/

I have no idea what her role is... but there can be more than one quirky blonde genius in the Flarrowverse. I did like her in Covert Affairs. The world is big enough for it. Now if they put her in glasses, tight dresses, a pony tail and put her behind the computers for Team Arrow, than NO - that position is filled. But quirky, blonde, and female are not not unique traits. Perhaps genius is to some degree - but not really in superhero shows, where every other hero or villain seems to have some super talent or smarts. I just think journalists and casting directors are not original with their descriptions.

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Trini

Trini

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but I just mean, when people were saying no way they'd let them go without a break-up, I figured that meant breaking them up for a whole season or two. If by "break-up," that means they're split for just two episodes here and there, that's fine. 

A whole season? I figured they'd have to be back together by the season finale for whatever cliffhanger they come up with to have emotional weight.

kismet

kismet

(edited)

I'm wicked excited for tonight's musical episode. I heard some Glee in the grocery store, which only increased my anticipation. I forgot how much Darren Criss can be interesting. And I think Moonriver so far has been okay. It doesn't have the depth of the original, but I liked the way it sounded. Plus any show that starts out with Singing in the Rain clips and "everything is better in music" can't really go wrong, can it??

Plus, I have a nice glass of wine, some yummy dinner cooking should things go astray. And hey at least this dream sequence is better than the Aliens dream sequence in the other crossover. I appreciate this Whammy. I also think they need to give ST a bonus check for borrowing my pretty boy line. 

Edited by kismet
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kismet

kismet

(edited)

Thank you Stein! Took words out of my mouth. Predictable kissing scene. I want less talking about their personal lives and more singing and dancing. I came for the musical not the teenage romance subplot.

Also, less talking about their vitals.

It wouldn't be the Flash without a running contest. :/

Edited by kismet
statsgirl

statsgirl

Well that made me appreciate Arrow.

I might have liked this episode if it hadn't been all about Barry's with Iris, which is okay, they're been building it for years, and Kara's relationship with Mon El (which is fast becoming a deal breaker for me). And if I didn't resent so much that they brought over all the male actors from the other shows but Kara is the only woman allowed to sing.  I'm not interested enough in the Flash characters to watch through the Harlequin writing.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Iris....... girl. The dude broke up with you after his fuck up... Why would you get back together with him so easily? Yikes. 

ETA: I keep forgetting that on Flash, Barry rarely ever faces the consequences of his dumbass decisions. 

Edited by wonderwall
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kismet

kismet

Yea, that was a disappointing episode. It was too much about Barry & Iris and Kara & Mon-El. I did like the musical numbers minus the SuperFriend one, that was horrible. Liked the tap dancing, but the song was the pits. Although there was that nice moment that BA admitted he couldn't go back in time.

And I did get a a little emotional at that proposal. I don't really watch the Flash anymore, so I don't honestly have an opinion on the relationship. But that song proposal was beautiful and sweet. I still don't believe it will keep BA/IW from for plot shenanigans, but it was a nice moment for the couple and its fans.

Kudos to them for integrating the cast into roles. The feuding crime bosses, Cisco as bartender, Winn as piano player, and Joe/Stein married were all nice touches. Thought it was a little insensitive that they named MM's kid Tommy in the Whammy. It could have been another stereotypical name with an -y ending. It would have been nice if they let more people sing. In fact, there was far too little music & dancing in the episode for my taste.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

Of course Iris never gets a POV, the whole show is to give Barry whatever he wants. No one ever gets to stay mad at him. 

That episode was disappointing. I expected more singing. That was definitely nothing like what Buffy or Scrubs did. Their musicals were actually fun. 

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ruby24

ruby24

Aww, I liked it! I think they could have used MORE songs actually. 

And of course now it's more obvious than ever that they basically went backwards from the plot of this episode and that singing proposal to make sure that Barry and Iris were separated for some stupid reason in order for this to happen in this one. But I thought that song was SO sweet, and I loved it, so I'll forgive it.

And honestly after this, I actually do feel very confident that the show does not WANT to break up Barry and Iris up (not in any meaningful way- I mean, does one episode count?). I think they're going to get married at the end of next season.

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Trini

Trini

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Iris....... girl. The dude broke up with you after his fuck up... Why would you get back together with him so easily? Yikes.

I'm still mad at the producers/writers; however, they never should of broken up in the first place, there was no good reason given for it, they were clear that they still loved each other, and the producers admitted it was all for to have a plot for the crossover. So I'm okay with the reversal. Plus, Iris got serenaded! and it was over in two episodes.
 

Quote

ETA: I keep forgetting that on Flash, Barry rarely ever faces the consequences of his dumbass decisions. 

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Of course Iris never gets a POV, the whole show is to give Barry whatever he wants. No one ever gets to stay mad at him.

None of that is true.

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Velocity23

Velocity23

5 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, it's definitely going to be a long engagement. 100th episode sounds about right- that'd be early Season 5? That way they could have other show's characters show up for the wedding and everything. That'd be kinda cool.

I feel they gonna do some cliffhanger type of ending to the season that is gonna delay the relationship for a while. 

if they gonna keep the 23 episodes it would turn out for the season 5 crossover. 

wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)
11 minutes ago, Trini said:

So I'm okay with the reversal. Plus, Iris got serenaded! and it was over in two episodes.

The issue is, that it still happened. Regardless of how nonsensical and ridiculous it was. I would've liked Iris to talk about it with Barry before blindly saying yes. Yes she loves him, but Barry hurt her TWICE in the matter of 2 weeks. You'd think she'd pause and say "Hmm, maybe we should have a good discussion where we're both at first before saying yes". 

The way blindly said "yes" sort of just goes with the theme that Iris let's Barry get away with almost everything... This episode was mostly about Barry and his feelings and Iris just stood there on the sidelines with open arms for whenever Barry decides to come back to her. 

It's lovely that Iris got serenaded, but that doesn't really make anything better.

I like Iris a lot. Hate to see that they're doing this to her character for the sake of a ship.

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

None of that is true.

What PoV did she have in this episode? The real Iris.

Edited by wonderwall
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Velocity23

Velocity23

2 minutes ago, Trini said:

They've been showing consequences of Barry's decisions; but probably not the ones you want.

Iris and Barry had their talk in the previous episode, and was already ready to get back together. I don't think she was doing anything "blindly".

What consequences? Other people suffered consequences. And Iris has found excuses for it while giving him pep talks. And in return he takes every decision out of her hands. And he only steps up because he learn a lesson by Music Meister. 

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)
25 minutes ago, Trini said:

They've been showing consequences of Barry's decisions; but probably not the ones you want.

You say they've been showing the consequences... What consequences? Name them. At least for my edification because I for sure can't see any.

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

Iris and Barry had their talk in the previous episode, and was already ready to get back together. I don't think she was doing anything "blindly".

No. In the previous episode they had a talk. Iris was ready to get back together with Barry even though he messed up. But then Barry hurt her again by asking for space. After that they had no talk. 

Edited by wonderwall
kismet

kismet

They broke up for plot, they got back together for plot. There is probably nothing deeper to the storyline or the characters. Most of the Flarrowverse episodes are simply the writers playing with real life Barbie Dolls. This week the couple will reunite, next week they'll take a break, and the other week one of them will be damseled. And then we will reset the whole cycle.

If this universe and its writers were more invested and skillful in writing & creating a universe, than I would care that the characters have deeper conversations. There are a few shows that do that. However, the Flarrowverse is not one of them. They are living out their childhood fantasies of bringing comics to life. It's not really part of their gameplan to actually build a solid universe or characters, which is why so many things are shallow and unexplored. I used to expect more from the shows and writers, but I've come to realize that we have different agendas. They want to play dress up every week with their action dolls. And until that changes, I fully expect that I will be disappointed but no longer surprised by insta-reunions, the lack of longevity or depth of consequences and the relationships that live on the surface.

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Trini

Trini

20 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

You say they've been showing the consequences... What consequences? Name them. At least for my edification because I for sure can't see any.

No. In the previous episode they had a talk. Iris was ready to get back together with Barry even though he messed up. But then Barry hurt her again by asking for space. After that they had no talk. 

We can continue this in the Flash forum when I'm awake.

And we already had this conversation in October, and I don't think there's any list of bullet points that will satisfy you. But what would you like to see as appropriate "consequences" from the show? (If you watch the show.)

Flash Through The Seasons: Series General Discussion

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)
7 minutes ago, Trini said:

And we already had this conversation in October, and I don't think there's any list of bullet points that will satisfy you.

We did and we came to the same conclusion - no one could really come up with a valid list of consequences Barry has faced other than he felt bad and Cisco was mad at him for a few episodes.. So if these are the only two consequences he faced for the most idiotic decision he's made that screwed up his friends lives... well......... ok then

You know me though, I love my bullet points. So if you have more than two of the aforementioned points I'm willing to listen.

I don't see why it can't be discussed here? I don't see why the location of the posts matter. We're in the mind your surroundings thread where we are meant to discuss this kind of stuff... Plus I'm sure more people here would like to know as well.

So yes, I'd love to see a list of bullet points here when you wake up.

Edited by wonderwall
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

The musical was not great. But not a complete flop either.  The pace was kind of weird and it bugged me that the story in the story really didn't have an ending.  

I actually really liked Super Friend, I just wish they'd committed to it sooner into the song and not played the awkward intro stuff that made some of the jokes fall flat.  But I thought it and Barry's song to Iris were the best of the bunch.  The song the guys sang (Joe, Stein, Malcolm) wasn't terrible but their voices didn't really blend well for most of it.  

And the "Put a little Love" song badly needed female voices.  The lack of them was strongly noticed.  The Flash is such a boys town.  The show runner's bias about that is embarrassing.

Darren Criss was IMO great.  The character just wanting to teach them a lesson about love was super weird though.  

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Sakura12

Sakura12

Iris' big part of the musical ep was to be a love interest. Wow so different from her usual role. Except not that's her entire purpose on that show. She's treated the worst out all the female characters in the Arrowverse. Everything is about the men in her life. She never gets a POV. 

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emarasmoak

emarasmoak

(edited)
16 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Even more so if Mon El is returning to Daxam at the end of the season because they'll want it to have super feels.  (Someone please give Chris Woods his own TV show because Kara is reduced to playing his girlfriend rather than driving her own show.)


 

Spoiler

 

Scans from the "SciFi magazine" from April 2017 containing an interview with Chris Wood confirm what many of us have been saying about Mon-El's character for quite some time. He was written as a flawed character that would take a lot of time to show character development into a hero. Quoting from the scans:

"In this version, they wanted Mon-El to have a bit more of a hero's journey, where he starts almost incapable of being the person that everyone knows he is capable of being, and being the hero he will ultimately become. A good starting point for him is something that is the opposite of full hero, which is frat boy and selfish and self-centered. He has somewhere to go, so by the end of the season and into next season, he's still growing and evolving and becoming the hero". "In Season 2, they wanted to have someone take that journey and who is fully capable of becoming what Supergirl is already. And Kara having someone to mentor and then also be love interest.... All of that complicates the characters a little bit more and gives Kara a lot to react to".

This character evolution has also been mentioned in other interviews like this one:

https://www.scifinow.co.uk/news/supergirl-chris-wood-on-mon-els-heros-journey/

So it seems that Mon-El will still be in the show in season 3 and will become a fully developed superhero. I for one am not surprised as Mon-El is clearly a hero in the comics.

I understand that others may not like him, his storyline or even his presence in the show, but as someone who is really enjoying Mon-El's arc and storyline and his relationship with Kara, I will be very happy if these spoilers are indeed true.

The SciFi magazine was on the newsstands last week (in the USA)

Source: https://t.co/WX9YdxBP7f

Source: https://t.co/juqH7LCKjH

 

Edited by emarasmoak
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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

Just finished watching it.

Loved the Dads song and the tap dancing. 

Barry has a wonderful voice! That was some lovely singing to Iris.

Once again I find myself wishing I shipped the ships in it. Their fans must have had a blast. I would have squeeeed a thousand squeees. Alas I just sat there and solemnly thought "How nice for the WestAllen fans. They got everything they wanted."

I'm really jealous right now that everything got resolved in one episode. We don't even know for sure if we'll get Olicity back and it's been 100000000 years since they broke up. 

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emarasmoak

emarasmoak

(edited)
27 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Once again I find myself wishing I shipped the ships in it. Their fans must have had a blast. I would have squeeeed a thousand squeees. Alas I just sat there and solemnly thought "How nice for the WestAllen fans. They got everything they wanted."

I'm really jealous right now that everything got resolved in one episode. We don't even know for sure if we'll get Olicity back and it's been 100000000 years since they broke up. 

Thanks, darling. I am an Olicity shipper that cannot stand Oliver or watch Arrow right now, so being able to enjoy Supergirl & the relationship between Kara & Mon-El is quite a relief. Still rooting for Felicity and her happiness.

Edited by emarasmoak
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Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

1 minute ago, emarasmoak said:

Thanks, darling. I am an Olicity shipper that cannot stand Oliver or watch Arrow right now, so being able to enjoy the Supergirl & the relationship between Kara & Mon-El is quite a relief.

No worries hun! You enjoy yourself, have fun and live out all your happy shipper dreams!!! 

I'd join you if I could but alas the ship picks you, you do not pick the ship! 

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Bort

Bort

7 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I don't see why it can't be discussed here? I don't see why the location of the posts matter. We're in the mind your surroundings thread where we are meant to discuss this kind of stuff... Plus I'm sure more people here would like to know as well.

The Mind Your Surroundings thread is to compare all the superhero genres, whether they're the CW/Berlanti/DC comics tv shows, the Marvel movies, the DC movies, the older Superman shows (Lois & Clark, Smallville), etc. If you want to go that far in-depth on the analysis of Flash characters, this is not the thread for it, the Flash forum is. I've made mod posts stating this, though I apparently need to do it periodically because it clearly gets missed or forgotten.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

... OK. Let's compare the bigger consequences Barry had to pay vs Oliver. 

Oliver:

  • Killed people and now he's paying the consequence of that by being tortured for six days
  • Lied to Felicity and then Felicity broke up with him. They are still broken up
  • Lost William by not protecting him better by telling Felicity
  • Went on a cruise with Laurels sister and ended up fighting for his life for 5 years (karma is a bitch) 
  • Diggle was angry with Oliver for over 5 months after Oliver took Lyla and left Sara alone
  • Lost that closeness he had with Felicity in season 3 after choosing to step away
  • Lost his mother as a consequence of not saving Shado on the island

Barry:

  • Barry felt bad? 
  • Cisco was angry with him because Barry changed the world and now his brother is dead
  • Iris ended the engagement for 2.5 seconds... 
  • There is no longer a Flash coffee
  • One could argue that Barry seeing his mother die again is a consequence of Flashpoint
Edited by wonderwall
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kismet

kismet

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The musical was not great. But not a complete flop either.  The pace was kind of weird and it bugged me that the story in the story really didn't have an ending.  

I actually really liked Super Friend, I just wish they'd committed to it sooner into the song and not played the awkward intro stuff that made some of the jokes fall flat.  But I thought it and Barry's song to Iris were the best of the bunch.  The song the guys sang (Joe, Stein, Malcolm) wasn't terrible but their voices didn't really blend well for most of it.  

And the "Put a little Love" song badly needed female voices.  The lack of them was strongly noticed.  The Flash is such a boys town.  The show runner's bias about that is embarrassing.

Darren Criss was IMO great.  The character just wanting to teach them a lesson about love was super weird though.  

I don't think it was a flop either. I actually think what weakened it was the lack of more singing and dancing. And although the actors embraced the spirit of a musical, the writing seemed a little hesitant to go there which is why I think we got so much talking and not enough musical.

The proposal song was the absolute best. I did like the jokes in SuperFriend, I just thought there was way too much awkward in that song lyrically, musically and acting wise to make it work for me. I did not like the blending of the Father's song, but separately I did like each of the actor's singing parts.

After watching the episode, I don't see any good reason why Iris or even Caitlin couldn't be singing in the big "Put a little Love" number. I mean just have them eating at the Cabaret and join in the singing. Iris could have been making eyes across the room at some stranger. Just have her be "kidnapped" after the musical number. That I think would have been a good compromise. Or just write IW a verse in her father's song. They had the words, just have her belt them out. It would have been perfectly acceptable for her to sing about how much in love she is.

I do think the Flash is a boys town. I do not disagree with that. But I do wonder if CP & DP both passed on singing & dancing, especially CP because she was most definitely in the dream sequence, so the opportunity was there. DP hung out in the background in real time, so it would have been harder but not impossible to write her into the singing.

I thought Darren Criss was supposed to be a villian, turns out he is just his Glee Character with new contact lens. And while I enjoy his acting, if you cast the Glee Guy who was all about teaching love, perhaps have him do a little more than what he did this episode. Maybe just have him vanish with a maniacal laugh and leave explaining the lesson of the week to another character.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

Of the four Flarrowverse shows, Arrpw and LoT are the ones where actions have real consequences, often very bad ones.  That's one of the reaons I prefer them.  As @kismet said above, on The Flash and Supergirl, they're just pretty people pushed around by plot.  On The Flash, it's especially egregious that ale characters, whether their names are Barry or Joe or Cisco, are too easily forgiven.

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Darren Criss was IMO great.  The character just wanting to teach them a lesson about love was super weird though.  

Remember all the cries that romance has no place on a TV show when it was about Olicity?  This is the third episode in a month that Supergirl has done that is about romantic relationships and no one seems to be complaining except me and I consider myself a shipper

3 hours ago, emarasmoak said:

Scans from the "SciFi magazine" from April 2017 containing an interview with Chris Wood confirm what many of us have been saying about Mon-El's character for quite some time. He was written as a flawed character that would take a lot of time to show character development into a hero. Quoting from the scans:

"In this version, they wanted Mon-El to have a bit more of a hero's journey, where he starts almost incapable of being the person that everyone knows he is capable of being, and being the hero he will ultimately become. A good starting point for him is something that is the opposite of full hero, which is frat boy and selfish and self-centered. He has somewhere to go, so by the end of the season and into next season, he's still growing and evolving and becoming the hero". "In Season 2, they wanted to have someone take that journey and who is fully capable of becoming what Supergirl is already. And Kara having someone to mentor and then also be love interest.... All of that complicates the characters a little bit more and gives Kara a lot to react to".

I'm happy for you that you're enjoying the show.  That's the best, when you've got a show and it's workout the way you want.

 

The idea of a shallow fratboy becoming a complex, self-actualized adult worked on Arrow and it sounds like AK is following the pattern with Mon El.  The difference is that it's taking Arrow 5 years and counting, that Oliver started out with a richer background with more in-show characters than Mon El has, and most important, the show is called Arrow.  It's supposed to be about Oliver so you know what you're getting and there's enough time to spend on it.

I think Chris Woods is doing a decent job of Mon El, especially given the writing, but I see him as a Ralph Bellamy actor, not a Cary Grant (His Girl Friday reference).  He's an acceptable Cobb salad, not one I would make a special trip to the restaurant again to return for.  Unlike Oliver, who came on the scene with a dark mystery, reflexes that attacked Moira when she woke him from a nightmare and "No one can know my secret" neck snapping purpose, Mon El is a superficial guy who had a secret everyone except the characters on the show guessed from the first time he mentioned that he was the Prince's bodyguard.

But to me the big problem is how much of the show has been changed since he's been on.  Kara is practically glued to his hip, most of her storylines this season have been about him but she's the lesser player in his story.  The importance of being part of Catco last season and Cat's legacy of a reporter's job is gone and that's okay with Kara because she's got her blog and she's got Mon El.  The core of last season's relationships were Kara/Cat and Kara/Alex and while Alex is still on the show, her relationship with Kara is an afterthought.  In the crossover, J'onn and Mon El (!) took Kara to Barry's Earth, not Alex, because it's got to be about Mon El now and Alex's role is to tell Kara to give Mon El another chance.  The high-fives between Kara, Winn and James last episode were a nod to last season's Stronger Together but when it came down to doint the job, Winn and James were on their own because Kara was off fretting about her relationship with Mon El.  The title of the show is still Supergirl but the reality of it seems more Mon El and  His Friend Supergirl.  It's been Barry'ed.

Edited by statsgirl
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Cleanqueen

Cleanqueen

I still don't understand why Iris and Barry need to be engaged. Barry could have simply said he made a mistake and wish she would take him back and perhaps wait on the engagement. Them getting engaged only after living together for several months is not going to end well and a real separation is on the horizon. That last break up made no sense because it was all for this specific episode.

I hate this show for ruining one of my favorite female characters and reducing her to just a love interest. I hate that she no longer has any agency and is at Barry's beck and call. 

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Guest
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