Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[nksarmi]

The one thing I disagree with about the assessment of where the Teams line up is where the Legends crew goes. In my opinion, most of Legends (Ray and Stein definitely included) go where Sara goes. She is the heart and soul of that team and they would follow her into hell and back (and kind of have if you count Star City 2046 and NP).

Edited May 4, 2016 by nksarmi

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I didn't say less equals better. I said if they only have a story for certain amount of episodes than they should write for those episodes. Not keep adding more episode so they are forced to drag the storyline out. 

It is a chant though that I've been hearing all too often when there is talk of reducing episode counts.  I guess I equate one with the other.  I agree though, that dragging out plot that can me accomplished quicker is a bad idea.  Don't take thirty minutes if you only need five. 

[Actionmage]

Quote

I also think we need to cut back on the episode count. If you need 23 episodes to tell your story then go ahead, if you only need 10 episodes than we don't need 13 episodes of filler. I'd rather have an amazing story over seeing pointless episodes or arcs stupidly stretched out just to fill the schedule. Or they can do with AoS does air a 10 or so episode arc, finish it. Have a break where another show with 8-10 episodes airs, then continue your show with another 10 or so episode arc. 

While I mostly agree with the idea of  'if there is only X number of episodes needed to tell this story', I don't think it negates a traditional 22 episode U.S. TV season, as...

Quote

Embrace the filler and make that interesting all on it's own and just skip the stalling and stretching.  There's no reason why all the episodes can't be entertaining even if not all concentrate on the big season long story arc forward. Weak arc episodes are way worse than moderate one offs.   

There have been plenty of bottle shows and one off episodes that are entertaining.

 

I think the problem was that TPTB for The Flash were caught off-balance by how popular the show was and tried to deliver the same thing in S2. Only they didn't. Also, the problems with the story seem to come down to pacing, not just the writing itself.  On Arrow, there has been peaks and valleys in dealing with Darhk.  Sometimes they've been the bug, sometimes the windshield. On The Flash, Barry's had his ass handed to him in various ways.  There have rarely been anything resembling a clear win for the Flash Mob. 

Whoever gets together to break-down the season put in an episode with Iris going undercover to watch out for Wally story, yet that is basically the only time we see Iris actually doing her job. She's rarely shown talking to the STAR Labs folks in her official capacity as, essentially, the metahuman beat reporter.  We saw her try to talk to Jay once. Iris then felt that she didn't need to talk to Jay, for whatever reason.  We could have had one episode where Iris, following a hunch on a story, gets trapped in Jitters and helps capture either a regular scofflaw or a "new" metahuman criminal with Barry and the team's help. But no. 

Not to push Iris to the fore, but it could have given moments of how the team react to a friend in danger as well as that person being known to be special to Barry, i.e. get how he feels about WestAllen in more concrete terms and the same for her. Seeing whether Iris wants to shut this down without Barry so he can concentrate on The Big Picture  or really hoping he'll just make this over with quick.  Also, whatever Iris investigates would be a nice way to thread a throughline to the Big Bad, if TPTB insist on having one every season. Iris finds a corner of the jigsaw puzzle and the Flash Mob starts from a different corner.

Maybe TPTB should not try for an overarching mystery next season? Or maybe take a season off from doing one? Have a Big Problem to solve instead of Who is the Real Big Bad?

[Starfish35]

Relevant to the conversation:

Do 'The Flash's recent struggles mean Team Berlanti is over-worked? 

Posted May 4, 2016 10:55 AM By Alan Sepinwall

Edited May 4, 2016 by Starfish35

[lemotomato]

No, it means The Flash is based on a paper thin premise of "Run Barry run!" week after week and that is unsustainable after one season.

Edited May 4, 2016 by lemotomato

[driedfruit]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT is looking for an African American new character from the 1940's, I vote for Candice Patton. She rocked the outfits on Earth 2. 

LOL a regular or guest star? The sad thing is, this guest will likely have more to do in however many episodes she appears than Iris will have in 2+ seasons. 

Tracy Ifeachor also guested on Doctor Who and she just left her CW job. 

[kismet]

3 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Supergirl Renewal Drama: Talks on Possible Jump to The CW, Budget Cuts

eek :/

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

If there is to be another female led comic book show produced in the next twenty years, they really need to at least get Supergirl to a season two.

I really don't think they could do the show though at CW budgets. Although at least the fancy sets are already paid for. 

I really hope it can make it to s2... but those ratings are pretty bad. I really think CBS should give it another seasons and try it on another day that is not against MNF or DWTS. Plus this is going to sound dumb, but Monday is also a big night for homework and extracurriculars. My niece who likes the show and is 14yrs old can't watch it because of those reasons. Meanwhile on other nights there is almost nothing to watch. I hope it is doing good on other platforms and that will be enough to get it through to s2.

I don't see the CW wanting another superhero show, when they already took a hard pass at it the first time. If it did become a CW show, wouldn't it have to move production to Canada? Is there any CW show filmed primarily out of Canada? I can see MBenoist moving out of LA, but I don't see Calista Flockhart or Jenna Dewan Tatum. I'm not sure about the other actors, but some of them would probably want to stay in Cali. I think Chyler Leigh has a huge family of little children. The show could look completely different. I like MB, but CF is really one of the best parts of the show, without CF I don't see it staying afloat at all.

[Lokiberry]

CF would be a huge loss, but, JDT? Not so much. Why is she even there? If they lose Chyler Leigh, they might as well hang it up. The sister relationship is the heart and soul of the show.

The big question for me is, what happens if CBS cancels it and the CW doesn't pick it up? Is that the end of it, or does MB go to Flash as Powergirl? That would be a real "game changer".

[BkWurm1]

CF was one of the first people i was wondering about as well.  Contracts just might keep actors on the show even if there are drastic changes but those expensive sets I was talking about are in L.A..  Would it be worth the move?  Plus, losing those sunny days would really change the tone of the show.  I fear that the CGI and fights would drastically suffer.  Tom Welling not wanting to be caught dead in tights isn't the only reason Smallville avoided flying nearly the whole run. 

[tv echo]

Interesting, somewhat conflicting reviews of Captain America: Civil War (a tad spoilery)...

‘Captain America: Civil War’ Review: The Superhero Genre Evolves with Marvel’s Astonishing Epic
BY MATT GOLDBERG      May 4, 2016
http://collider.com/captain-america-civil-war-review/

Quote

And it’s a personal film that’s 12 movies in the making.  This couldn’t be the third film in the trilogy.  It may be the third Captain America film, and it has some important things to say about his character and what he represents as an individual and as a symbol, but you can’t get to this movie without the Iron Man films and The Avengers and everything else from the MCU.  Only Marvel could have made this movie, and the results are tremendous.  In its own way, Captain America: Civil War is even more impressive than The Avengers.

'Captain America: Civil War' may split audience between true believers and puzzled newbies
Kenneth Turan  May 5, 2016
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-0505-captain-america-civil-war-review-20160504-snap-story.html

Quote

For, paradoxically, the more the interconnectedness of Marvel films increases at warp speed ("Civil War" is described with a straight face as "the first film in Phase 3 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe," MCU for short), the more insular they become. Despite their mushrooming popularity -- 12 consecutive Marvel films and counting have debuted at the No.  spot in U.S. box office -- they are becoming increasingly exclusionary, making it difficult for random first-time viewers, if such people still exist, to come in off the street and fully enjoy them.

Edited May 5, 2016 by tv echo

[benteen]

Oof, moving to the CW would be quite a demotion for Supergirl.  It would mean a lot more crossovers with the Arrowverse, which would be awesome.  But I don't see it being particularly feasible. 

16 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Relevant to the conversation:

Do 'The Flash's recent struggles mean Team Berlanti is over-worked? 

Posted May 4, 2016 10:55 AM By Alan Sepinwall

I'm glad someone is realizing how much this show has declined.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't see CBS being able to force CW to take Supergirl, nor do i think he would care.  Supergirl is a WB Production,  not CBS Studios, there's nothing in it for CBS to put Supergirl on CW  (as far as i know).

I can see WB forcing CW to pick up Supergirl but, where would they put it? Not to mention that CBs could in fact block CW from airing Supergirl because that would lead to way too many WB produced shows on CW when there's supposed to be a balance (of sorts).

I think this is just massive rumor and speculation at this point. More than likely CBS/WB will come to an agreement on the licensing fee and CBS will air Supergirl S2 with WB subsidizing a lot of the costs (in hopes of making up the money on the back end).

Or it gets cancelled outright, that's still a possibility 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[nksarmi]

I really, really hope CBS will give Supergirl another season or two - even if they are 13 episode seasons. At the very least they should pick it up for another 13 and then see how DVD sales go. I will buy it CBS - please don't make me sad and have it sit at one lonely season by my Birds of Prey DVDs.

[Sakura12]

I really wanted to like Supergirl, but it was just to safe and cheesy. I like my characters with a bit of an edge to them so that could be why Flash and Supergirl are just not cutting it for me. I loved Red Kryptonite Kara though.

I'd watch a Martian Manhunter show with Alex Danvers. 

[dtissagirl]

From the LA Times review of Cap3 posted above:

Quote

Despite their mushrooming popularity -- 12 consecutive Marvel films and counting have debuted at the No.  spot in U.S. box office -- they are becoming increasingly exclusionary, making it difficult for random first-time viewers, if such people still exist, to come in off the street and fully enjoy them.

This is true. They do recap some stuff from previous movies in a very exposition heavy way, but the movie legit assumes you've watched everything that came before. They just as much refer to stuff from Ultron/Winter Soldier/Iron Man without taking the time to explain it. 

I've felt this way since the first Avengers, but it's almost like they're writing serialized episodic television. There's enough leeway for you to jump into a brand new "episode", because this isn't rocket science hard to understand, but it's BETTER if you catch up with the previous body of work.

Speaking of Civil War, this is the greatest analysis of the movie I've read so far [it's not a review, exactly, so I'm not calling it that]. Somewhat spoilery for the movie, and for Hamilton:

Captain America, Aaron Burr, And The Politics Of Killing Your Friends
by Linda Holmes, NPR
http://www.npr.org/sections/monkeysee/2016/05/05/476739552/captain-america-aaron-burr-and-the-politics-of-killing-your-friends

[tarotx]

At least Marvel has the movies under their belts. BvS was like coming into a movie sequel without the previous movies as reference. And the titled Cap America denotes that this might be a sequel movie. Which I guess is why they are calling this Captain America and not just Marvel's Civil War which I heard some were wishing so that Cap's solo 3 would be his own movie. 

[dtissagirl]

But it IS a Captain America movie first and foremost, even if there are 487 other characters in it. And they kinda frame the "war" as being his more than everyone else's.

The idea of a "solo" movie for Cap is completely silly to me because he doesn't fit into any possible classic hero's journey. He doesn't need to find himself, he doesn't need to learn anything, he doesn't need to grow emotionally... he's already at peak moral and ideal and emotional state. Which is why every Cap movie so far is him reacting to his environment crumbling down on him while he stays the voice of logic and reason.

[Sakura12]

I don't mind that it's not a solo Cap movies, the Universe has expanded beyond that. He had his heroes journey in his first movie. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[quarks]

Supergirl can probably continue to film in Los Angeles even if the CW picks it up - in fact, given the fairly obvious lack of additional soundstage space on that Vancouver set (i.e., the other reason why Legends of Tomorrow keeps reusing the Arrow and Flash sets) - it probably will. It's not like CW shows are required to film in Canada - Crazy Ex-Girlfriend films in L.A.

I think the real problem isn't so much L.A., but other budget factors - Calista Flockhart and the flying effects for two regular characters and various guest stars, plus explosions and other CGI stuff and multiple location shots.  Of course, the C.W. does have some other expensive actors, and Supergirl could always decide to just have Supergirl track down bad guys in warehouses instead of the bright sunshine of everyone's favorite park in L.A. But that would change the color of the show. Literally.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, dtissagirl said:

From the LA Times review of Cap3 posted above:

This is true. They do recap some stuff from previous movies in a very exposition heavy way, but the movie legit assumes you've watched everything that came before. They just as much refer to stuff from Ultron/Winter Soldier/Iron Man without taking the time to explain it. 

I've felt this way since the first Avengers, but it's almost like they're writing serialized episodic television. There's enough leeway for you to jump into a brand new "episode", because this isn't rocket science hard to understand, but it's BETTER if you catch up with the previous body of work.

I haven't watched Thor 2 or AoS (since episode 3 of S1). The only time i truly felt lost during a Marvel movie was the start or Age of Ultron. I just couldn't figure out how they went from end of The Winter Soldier (SHIELD gone and Capt/Falcon off looking for Bucky). To Avengers destroying the last of the Hydra bases and having a huge victory party at Avengers Tower.

I recently watched both The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron and there are some comments in the Twins Post Credit scene which kind of sets up AoU.

I think you could easily watch GotG and Antman without getting confused. You might not get the extra jolt from seeing Peggy or Howard Stark (especially the wahuh of seeing IM3 Howard Stark, instead of Agent Carter/Capt1 Howard Stark) but, you wouldn't be confused by the scene.

I do think the Avengers movies require some previous knowledge, that seems to be used the most to reference other movies in the Marvel lineup 

[dtissagirl]

I think *Joss Whedon* didn't watch anything in between Avengers and Ultron, and it shows in that particular movie. I've seen all movies and all TV shows in this universe, and that movie is the only one that feels sort of out-of-continuity for me. It's the rilly rilly bad episode of the season that I pretend never happened, haha.

[Starfish35]

It's true.  I mentioned I recently rewatched it, and while I enjoyed it more the second time around, that was largely due to having the very bad taste of BvS still in my mouth (and whatever its flaws I would take it in a heartbeat over BvS).  

You really have to fill in the blanks yourself between IM3 and CA:WS.  Thor....isn't that big of deal I don't think, because he did go back to Earth at the end of Thor 2.   But how Tony went from destroying all his suits at the end of IM3 to where we are in AoU is entirely left up to your imagination.  It works as a direct follow up to the first Avengers, but unfortunately we had IM3 between the two and a large part of that movie was Tony dealing with his  issues after Avengers, and so we don't know how we got from there to where he is in AoU.

It isn't quite as jarring with CA, but there still feels like a lot we missed between the end of CA:WS and the start of Avengers.  And somewhere along the way, someone apparently had the bright idea to program the Hulk so that he could be controlled by Natasha (the whole "lullaby" thing), and....that would have been something I would have liked to have had explained to me a little more, honestly, because in the light of the romantic relationship between the two that developed during the movie, it just creeped me out.  

[nksarmi]

I'm not sure I entirely blame Whedon for just leaving the stuff between IM3 and AoU up to people's imaginations. I mean when we got to the end of IM3, the kids in my house went "Does that mean Iron Man won't be in Avengers movies anymore? That sucks!" I mean it really was an odd way to end that movie when everyone knew at that point that RDJ would be playing Iron Man at least one more time - probably more. So I am more than willing to believe that Tony just got bored and built more suits in between the movies.

I can believe that Natasha tracked down Banner for some help again at some point and they figured out the lullaby thing off camera. I just don't particularly care for their romance. She has the potential to have a much more interesting story with Bucky/Winter Soldier (someone she does date in the comics) than that odd pairing with Banner. And I must admit that I have a hard time with Banner being with anyone but Betty. I don't need many canon couples to be left alone - but Banner/Hulk feels wrong without his dedication to Betty.

The thing that seems completely off is that Fury appeared in AoU even though he wanted the world to think he was dead in Winter Soldier and wanted to start forming another team outside of SHIELD. I have only seen AoU once so I can't be sure how many people know he's alive in that movie but it's something that made me scratch my head in the middle of his scene. On the other hand, I have no problem believing that in the midst of looking for Bucky - Steve found a led on Hydra and called in the team which leads us to AoU movie.

[cambridgeguy]

Supergirl season 2 premiere on the CW - Kara is exposed to a new form of kryptonite (made by Max Lord, probably) that keeps her grounded.  However, she'll still have her speed so she can woosh in just like Tom Welling.  Meanwhile, J'onn will be struck by something that locks him into the powerless Hank Henshaw form (they did this on Smallville too). 

I'm (kind of) kidding but those flight scenes and the CGI for MM have to cost a fortune.  Maybe Supergirl will always take off and land just out of the shot.  Plus no more wire work fights (some of which were pretty dubious, for what it's worth).

[Velocity23]

Felicit shows up todays LOT episode.

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I think *Joss Whedon* didn't watch anything in between Avengers and Ultron, and it shows in that particular movie. I've seen all movies and all TV shows in this universe, and that movie is the only one that feels sort of out-of-continuity for me. It's the rilly rilly bad episode of the season that I pretend never happened, haha.

Very true. I remember when Winter Soldier aired there were debates over Natasha being in a relationship with Clint. I actually thought it was going to be revealed that Hawkeye/Widow were in a relationship in AoU. Instead we get Nat/Bruce which (to me) came out of nowhere and didn't work that well.  Then again i really dont like Whedon's Natasha. I think The Russos did much better with the character.

[ruby24]

I don't know why they didn't just go with Hawkeye/Black Widow for the movies. There's a comics history there, and it gives the two of them their own story since neither of them get their own movies.

I don't know, seems like the obvious choice for a reason.

[Starfish35]

Because it's Joss Wheden.  There's a reason "jossed" became a thing.  :/

I mildly shipped Clintasha, but it wasn't an OTP or anything.  In fact I was more like nksarmi.  I was like "but but what about Betty!?!"  Lol.  (In all honesty, I really liked Betty in both the Hulk movies, although I didn't particularly care about the movies themselves.  I just thought they had a connection that was something special.  It's very Beauty and the Beast but for some reason it worked for me.)

Anyway.  Natasha/Bucky would be interesting.  I just didn't like Natasha/Bruce.  But I don't think we'll see any more of it. 

[nksarmi]

Ray and Felicity just had a great scene together on Legends. Emily really does have easy chemistry with a lot of different people.

[wonderwall]

For those who aren't watching but want to see the scene... It is sweet. Shows that they work MUCH better as friends.

Here's an LQ version:

X

[nksarmi]

The scene with Sara and Nyssa will also be worth looking up. I'm not sure anyone has loved anyone on these shows as much as Nyssa loves Sara - it's really very beautiful.

[Morrigan2575]

I liked the Ray/Felicity scene

[Starfish35]

I hate to ask, but I might not get to see the episode for several days.  Could someone tell me how it was that Sara got to see Nyssa and Ray visited Felicity?  I have a theory and I'm just curious to know whether I was anywhere close.

[Morrigan2575]

The Ray/Felicity scene was a Flashback to Ray saying goodbye to Felicity before he got on the WaveRider.

Don't know about Sara/Nyssa

[nksarmi]

3 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I hate to ask, but I might not get to see the episode for several days.  Could someone tell me how it was that Sara got to see Nyssa and Ray visited Felicity?  I have a theory and I'm just curious to know whether I was anywhere close.

Sara visited Nyssa after Laurel and Oliver restored her soul. Sara vowed to get Nyssa out of prison and Nyssa told her not to worry about it - to go live her life as far away from her dark and painful past as she could.

[thegirlsleuth]

I liked that Ray/Felicity scene, which had a lot of warmth and melancholy--he's not bad when he's not trying to crash through her boundaries, and I enjoyed her Ray impression.  Also, the background music was lovely.  I'm still not watching the show because ugh, the Hawks, but liked this.

Will keep an eye out for the Sara/Nyssa scene.

[Sakura12]

They were all flashbacks from before they left on the Waverider. 

I did like the Sara and Nyssa scene, since the truest hero of them all didn't care that her friend was rotting in prison. I also liked how Sara just waltzed right into Nanda Parbat. I suppose she still had friends in the League. She is a likeable person. 

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The Ray/Felicity scene was a Flashback to Ray saying goodbye to Felicity before he got on the WaveRider.

Don't know about Sara/Nyssa

 

2 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Sara visited Nyssa after Laurel and Oliver restored her soul. Sara vowed to get Nyssa out of prison and Nyssa told her not to worry about it - to go live her life as far away from her dark and painful past as she could.

Thank you both!!  Ahahaha no I was nowhere close. :)  But I like that better.  Were they the only two flashbacks, or did everyone get one?

[nksarmi]

They showed the scenes of Jax and his mom and Stein and his wife right before Stein ruffied Jax and brought him along on this mission. It showed how Stein told his wife he would be back before she knew it without giving her a proper goodbye.

[Starfish35]

Thanks!

[Sakura12]

Everyone got a flashback besides Snart and Mick since they were together already. 

Sara once again proves she's the only consistently competent member of the team that doesn't abandon her stupid teammates. She's a counselor, a therapist, a navigator and a pilot. Now that Team Killer and Klepto are the only ones not captured I'm sure stuff will get taken care off. They don't have to listen to anyone else anymore. 

[nksarmi]

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Everyone got a flashback besides Snart and Mick since they were together already. 

Sara once again proves she's the only consistently competent member of the team that doesn't abandon her stupid teammates. She's a counselor, a therapist, a navigator and a pilot. Now that Team Killer and Klepto are the only ones not captured I'm sure stuff will get taken care off. They don't have to listen to anyone else anymore. 

I'm fairly confident that they will erase the Vanishing Point from existence after they get their teammates back. Or so I'm hoping with all this talk in interviews from the EPs of them not having to deal with Savage or the Time Masters next season.

[wonderwall]

So apparently Sara kisses Snart in the next episode? Why is it that the show never fails to make me think that Nyssa always loved Sara more than Sara loved Nyssa? It makes me so sad :(

[Sakura12]

I think it was fairly obvious that Sara loved Nyssa but was no longer in love with her since she first appeared on Arrow. And while I liked Nyssa/Sara, I wanted Sara to find someone not connected to her traumatic past. I do like that Nyssa lets her go and just wants her to be happy. That shows that Nyssa's love for her is real. 

[nksarmi]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I think it was fairly obvious that Sara loved Nyssa but was no longer in love with her since she first appeared on Arrow. And while I liked Nyssa/Sara, I wanted Sara to find someone not connected to her traumatic past. I do like that Nyssa lets her go and just wants her to be happy. That shows that Nyssa's love for her is real. 

Nyssa's love for Sara is downright amazing to me. I do think it's possible that she loved Sara more than Sara loved her - but that's also because Nyssa was at a better place in her life when she fell in love with Sara. I would like Sara to move on and be with someone else OR not return to Nyssa until she is older and her time as a Legend is complete. But I still very much enjoy what they have and how they want good things for each other.

[Starfish35]

Deadline addresses the Supergirl situation.

‘Supergirl’ Eyes Move To Vancouver To Reduce Costs As Season 2 Stays In Limbo

[lemotomato]

As someone that's only watching Arrow, I don't want Supergirl to move to the CW. I don't want to imagine what condition the show will be left in if two of Berlanti's favorites, plus shiny new toy LoT, are given priority in budget, PR, resources. 

[BkWurm1]

Arrow already gets squat for promotion and advertising so I'm not worried about them getting less.  I worry what Supergirl would look like after such a move but I'm not concerned how it would impact Arrow specifically.  I have had issues with Arrow this season but almost all of them surround that one stupid BM drama plot and it feels like we've moved past that kind of requisite stupidity so after how good the most recent episode of Arrow was, I'm feeling pretty good about it's future. 

LoT is the show I would worry about getting a renewal for a third season - though if they deliver on a rebooted purpose for the show, it could still recover. 

[statsgirl]

I think Supergirl would still get the golden egg because it's on CBS and it's Supergirl.  Hopefully if they do move to Vancouver, there will be some new sets because I hate to think of the logistics of using those same sets on three shows as it is.

Re tonight's LoT:  I'm afraid Jax and Stein won't be back next season, and sadly possibly Rip.  And I really, really need The Hawks to be gone instead.  Now that Kendra is once more totally committed to the unpleasant Carter, they both drag the show down.

[Password]

LOL at Oliver being broody but chatty.