Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[wonderwall]

WB is NOT The CW.

I know. I just forgot to add the /WB at the end.

 

I'm being petty :)

Edited March 20, 2016 by wonderwall

[Ann Mack]

Nice of the WB to do a BvS screening for the CW shows. Wonder how many will be able to attend? Even if they don't attend it was a nice gesture IMO.

[Delphi]

I doubt the turtle contract would prohibit him from doing PR for movies that are not in competition with it, especially since if he had done multiple films around the same time, they wouldn't be able to make him forgo promiting them. Blame is on CW 100% for me.

I think it was quarks or Morrigan that mentioned contacts awhile back and how Stephen is probably contractually obligated not to promote other things.

But the fact that they skipped the cast entirely leads me to think they just ignored Arrow entirely.

[Morrigan2575]

Not me.

However that spec has already been proven wrong, SA has done interviews for Arrow with IGN and a British site.

I really think you guys are barking up the wrong tree.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think the alleged issue was SA promoting other properties, period, but other movie properties? Maybe I'm mixing up conversations. If there isn't an Arrow promo, there has to be a reason (not saying it's contractual). No way were they just completely forgotten/ignored.

Edited March 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Nice of the WB to do a BvS screening for the CW shows. Wonder how many will be able to attend? Even if they don't attend it was a nice gesture IMO.

According to Ken @pursuit23, none of the Arrow cast were there.  LoT was, and presumably the Flash.

[BkWurm1]

According to Ken @pursuit23, none of the Arrow cast were there.  LoT was, and presumably the Flash.

Ok, make room on the conspiracy theory train. Seriouly, none of them? That screams not invited.

[lemotomato]

John Barrowman is on his way back to Vancouver and tweeted that he had drinks with SA in Palm Springs right before he left. So whether SA didn't go because he wasn't in town or wasn't invited, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It was just a screening and not a premiere-type event, so maybe some people didn't feel like it was worth the fuss?

 

Edit: According to YVR Shoots, Caity Lotz, Neal Mcdonough, Candice Patton, and Tom Cavanagh went.

Edited March 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think the alleged issue was SA promoting other properties, period, but other movie properties? Maybe I'm mixing up conversations. If there isn't an Arrow promo, there has to be a reason (not saying it's contractual). No way were they just completely forgotten/ignored.

They're using SA's comment about not doing Arrow press (and sticking to Facebook Q&A) to allege that TMNT is now blocking him doing Movie promotions.  The original assertions was that SA couldn't do Arrow media because of a contract block, which was proven false because he did do media.  Since there was nothing blocking SA from doing Arrow interviews except his desire not to do them. Maybe there's really nothing blocking SA or anyone on Arrow from doing a WB promo and people are just trying to find an excuse/reason/someone to blame?

 

As for why there's no Arrow promo for the WB?  I have no idea but, I don't really care, it's not that big of a deal to me.  However, it seems like a huge deal to the people on this board, which makes me wonder why no one has actually bothered to just ask the cast/crew/chico6?

 

John Barrowman is on his way back to Vancouver and tweeted that he had drinks with SA in Palm Springs right before he left. So whether SA didn't go because he wasn't in town or wasn't invited, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It was just a screening and not a premiere-type event, so maybe some people didn't feel like it was worth the fuss?

 

I agree,it wasn't some red carpet press even, it was just a screening, there was one at Radio City Musical hall that my friend went to last night.  The Arrow cast probably just didn't feel like going.  I highly doubt they weren't invited especially since Neal M went.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

They're using SA's comment about not doing Arrow press (and sticking to Facebook Q&A) to allege that TMNT is now blocking him doing Movie promotions. The original assertions was that SA couldn't do Arrow media because of a contract block, which was proven false because he did do media. Since there was nothing blocking SA from doing Arrow interviews except his desire not to do them. Maybe there's really nothing blocking SA or anyone on Arrow from doing a WB promo and people are just trying to find an excuse/reason/someone to blame?

Oh, I thought that what SA has said about what he will and won't do/where he will and won't be doing it was independent of the thought that perhaps his TMNT contract prevented him from doing press/promo for a movie from another studio that he's not even in.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh, I thought that what SA has said about what he will and won't do/where he will and won't be doing it was independent of the thought that perhaps his TMNT contract prevented him from doing press/promo for a movie from another studio that he's not even in.

From what I can tell people are going back to that original SA comment and the original discussion about it in the Social Media thread and are now applying the same "conclusion" that SA can't do a WB promo for BvS because of his TMNT contract.  

[tv echo]

Some Arrowverse mentions in this review of Daredevil Season 2 (warning: rest of article contains spoilers)...

 

The Devil's in the Details: Why S2 of Daredevil Is Make or Break
BY KHAL, FRAZIER THARPE   March 20, 2016
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2016/03/daredevil-season-two-conversation

Frazier: I just...expected more. In the interim between Daredevil seasons I finally got acquainted with DC/CW’s Arrow and The Flash, and the way those series marry TV execution with fan-service is nothing short of amazing. And while these are two vastly different approaches to superhero adaptation, I couldn’t help feeling like something was lacking in the start to Daredevil season two. The narrative propulsion just wasn’t there for me....
*  *  *
khal: ... I also agree that the CW’s Arrowverse is quite possibly the best way to write—and interconnect—superhero TV. While that drawn-out style can work for something like Better Call Saul, it doesn’t lend itself well to Marvel’s Netflix shows....

[FurryFury]

These dudes are crazy. Or stupid. Daredevil season 2 was miles above anything that Arrow has ever done. (And don't even get me started on the perennially overrated The Flash).

Edited March 21, 2016 by FurryFury

[apinknightmare]

These dudes are crazy. Or stupid. Daredevil season 2 was miles above anything that Arrow has ever done. (And don't even get me started on the perennially overrated The Flash).

Or, here's an idea - they get engaged/invested in things differently than you do.

Edited March 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[FurryFury]

If you're a reviewer, you should at least try to go for objectivity. It does exist.

 

I mean, I enjoy LOT but I'd never say it's an actually good show, because it's not. I don't care about Mad Men or Breaking Bad, but I wouldn't call them bad. Etc.

[dtissagirl]

I was with Daredevil S2 until the

teenage zombies

showed up. Now each episode is taking about 4 hours for me to get through, bc I keep pausing and going elsewhere to do things that are less boring.

Edited March 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

If you're a reviewer, you should at least try to go for objectivity. It does exist.

I mean, I enjoy LOT but I'd never say it's an actually good show, because it's not. I don't care about Mad Men or Breaking Bad, but I wouldn't call them bad. Etc.

The reviewers said that they liked the way the Flarrowverse was interconnected, and that that the way they incorporate fan service is amazing. Unless I missed it, they didn't comment on the quality of any of the shows. Edited March 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[FurryFury]

I also agree that the CW’s Arrowverse is quite possibly the best way to write superhero TV.

 

I'd say they did.

[hogwash]

Yeah, the

Foot Clan stuff

could barely hold my interest. Matt blew off a make or break case but it just lead to something other than him

mediating Elektra and Stick's squabbling, that nonsense Black Sky reveal, and faceless Asian mysticism

. None of that was interesting to me. I'll never understand why these ~grounded~ shows can't get a good handle on adapting these shadowy "Asian/ninja" organizations. Whatever. The other stuff in the season more than made up for it.

[apinknightmare]

I'd say they did.

I took that as more of a commentary on how the universe is constructed, based on the part of the quote you left out there.

Still, my point was that it is actually possible to prefer the Arrowverse and their shows without being crazy or stupid, which you insinuated in your original comment.

Edited March 21, 2016 by apinknightmare

[FurryFury]

Oh, it's certainly possible to prefer it, I didn't say otherwise. I just feel like saying they are better written is crazy, because it's just not true.

[Trini]

As for why there's no Arrow promo for the WB?  I have no idea but, I don't really care, it's not that big of a deal to me.  However, it seems like a huge deal to the people on this board, which makes me wonder why no one has actually bothered to just ask the cast/crew/chico6?

 

It's not a "huge" deal to me; it just seems odd that Arrow was the only DC show omitted.

[dtissagirl]

I think it's a matter of perspective. I think season one of Flash was better written than both DD seasons. And seeing Doug Petrie's name on the DD credits still makes me shudder because I still think he's an abysmally terrible writer.

[tarotx]

I think making a show enjoyable can mean a better show. Arrow has a cross between realizm and traditional comic feel that I really enjoy. I would rather watch Arrow any day. Though I have enjoyed the first couple episodes of DD season 2 when I couldn't finish season 1. Now Arrow does a lot for Plot that weakens the characters but that's not the about the approach. Season 2 of Arrow is still my second favorite season of all the comic shows on right now. Agent Carter season 1 is my favorite. I also loved Jessica Jones season 1. It was hard to watch though. I binged watched it straight through but I haven't rewatched it yet. It was miles better than s3 of Arrow. I could get through s3 of Arrow when I couldn't s1 of DD. But that's probably because of what the actors bring to Arrow. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

Whether you like one show over another is obviously personal preference. If the reviewers talking about the Flarrowverse being better connected then I cannot agree with that.Arrow's crossovers all feel forced to show they are in fact crossovers. As evidenced by all the complaining that happens about taking away from the actual characters on the shows.

 

I think Daredevil does a better job of interconnecting the entire Marvel Universe over what Arrow does. They talk about the other shows and movie characters, but Daredevil is about Daredevil and it stays that way. They don't make very special epic crossovers, they are smaller and feel more realistic. Jessica Jones was name dropped but she never showed up, a smaller side character did. Claire popping up on the shows also feels real and makes sense. There's nothing special about them they just show up and leave. 

 

Marvel is also much better at writing female characters and giving them their own story. While connected to hero, their story doesn't really revolve around the hero. They are given season long arcs that run parallel with the heroes but in the end they make their own decisions and choices without the hero's input. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

Some people like the big, special event crossovers, though. Dropping in and out wouldn't be enough for them, so in that respect Marvel would be doing a terrible job.

The point is - if media delivers what you're looking for from it, you're going to think it's superior. If something else doesn't give that to you, then you'll think less of it. No one's opinions are fact here, much as we might like them to be.

[tarotx]

Flarrow does a lot of smaller cameos than the big crossover. And last season the crossover was done really well. The big cross over event this season was a big miss but I'm not going to judge base on just those 2 episodes. Though actually the Flash episode was good. It was the stupid of having non Arrow character Flashbacks (that were beyond cheesy in a bad way) and bringing time travel to Arrow. And of course forced BM Drama. 

[Sakura12]

Some people like the big, special event crossovers, though. Dropping in and out wouldn't be enough for them, so in that respect Marvel would be doing a terrible job.

The point is - if media delivers what you're looking for from it, you're going to think it's superior. If something else doesn't give that to you, then you'll think less of it. No one's opinions are fact here, much as we might like them to be.

 

They are doing the big special event crossover with an entire 13 episode series devoted to just that. The actual character shows are about that character, we get to know them. Then see them in the big team up event series called the Defenders. Just like we saw it in the Avengers. Even Agents of Shield managed to sneak in a Agent Carter flashback for a case they were working on. They connect their shows and movies without making a huge deal out of it. That makes it feel more real. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Sakura12

[lemotomato]

I feel like comparing the Marvel's Netflix series to DC's network shows is like comparing apple to oranges. They have different budgets, season lengths, ratings demands, content restrictions. Many of the strengths attributed to DD and JJ are possible because they're basically premier channel shows like HBO and Showtime, and to a certain extent, AMC. Of course the writing/production quality is going to be better when they don't have to worry about pleasing as general of an audience as possible. Not to mention that they're making 13 episodes instead of 23. Are the storylines going to be tighter when they have all the scripts in front of them when filming starts instead of writing as they go along? Are the stunts better when they're not on a schedule that forces them to put out a new episode in a certain time frame? Of course.

 

DD and JJ are on a completely different level than Arrow/Flash/Supergirl and AoS. I think the constant praising of the Netflix shows while simultaneously putting down the network shows is unfair.

Edited March 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[hogwash]

Eh, I don't know. I get that both JJ (and Daredevil) are going for gritty and mostly realistic feels but the utterly incredulous way people treated Jessica's warnings about Kilgrave was so bizarre to me in a world where a team of superheroes destroyed a chunk of the city fighting aliens coming from a hole in the sky. Not to mention the fact that they barely reference each other if they're not directly connected. 2 different networks, the movies, different tones, etc. I don't get where it all fits in. 

[calliope1975]

I feel like comparing the Marvel's Netflix series to DC's network shows is like comparing apple to oranges. They have different budgets, season lengths, ratings demands, content restrictions. 

 

I absolute agree, but I can't help but compare the stunts. I think the S1 Arrow hallway rescuing Walter scene (as well as a few others) could compare favorably to the work on Daredevil, but somewhere along the way something changed. The quality of stunt work has visibly decreased, and I'm not sure why. I know there are more masks in the field, but there are big choreographed fights on other shows, too, that work. Arrow's no longer do. 

 

Stunt work is one of my favorite things ever. I never notice the reuse of sets like other viewers, but I do notice poor stunt work.

Edited March 21, 2016 by calliope1975

[chaos is welcome]

I was with Daredevil S2 until the

teenage zombies

showed up. Now each episode is taking about 4 hours for me to get through, bc I keep pausing and going elsewhere to do things that are less boring.

Yeah, I felt about that lil twist and what followed re the hand about like I have with magic in arrow.

I do feel daredevil does a much, much better job of giving character beats. I am watching s1 of dd with my kid, and he gets a little bored. I think the plot is more nuanced in dd, versus cram-as-much-as-you-can in arrow. There are so many similarities/parallels between the two shows, it's crazy. Mostly just comic tropes though I suppose.

Edit to add that I totally agree about the stunts. The Walter rescue scene and several of the roof top fights were top notch. The daredevil rooftop fight in 2-13 made me long for the old arrow stunts.

Edited March 21, 2016 by chaos is welcome

[tarotx]

I was just rewatching the Arrow s4 stunts a couple days ago and I really don't think the stunts are as bad as I feel they are when I'm watching the episodes. They are just very similar. Plus the Ladies are showcased and the Green Arrow is weakened so is limited. The more I rewatched the stunts I just realized it's because I don't give a crap about Laurel and Thea as fighters. They do nothing for me. Plus things are kind of dark (to accommodate the stunt doubles?). Like Laurel's Hallway scene in 4.7. I never see her face. I do love Thea but I still can't connect to her as a mask. And I definitelyf don't connect to Laurel that way. 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by tarotx

[lemotomato]

I absolute agree, but I can't help but compare the stunts. I think the S1 Arrow hallway rescuing Walter scene (as well as a few others) could compare favorably to the work on Daredevil, but somewhere along the wall something changed. The quality of stunt work has visibly decreased, and I'm not sure why. I know there are more masks in the field, but there are big choreographed fights on other shows, too, that work. Arrow's no longer do.

Stunt work is one of my favorite things ever. I never notice the reuse of sets like other viewers, but I do notice poor stunt work.

I think a show's stunts can only be compared to its own, not to another show because we don't know about differences in budgets, and quality of stuntmen they're working with. Let's use AoS as an example. I think they have better group stunts than Arrow but they've always been an ensemble show and so its stunt team/coordinators have always worked fine with big groups. Bamford and his team were excellent with single or dual focus stunts, but apparently can't handle 4 principle characters at once, which is what's expected of them in almost every episode now. So there's a decline in quality.

Edited March 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[nksarmi]

I absolute agree, but I can't help but compare the stunts. I think the S1 Arrow hallway rescuing Walter scene (as well as a few others) could compare favorably to the work on Daredevil, but somewhere along the way something changed. The quality of stunt work has visibly decreased, and I'm not sure why. I know there are more masks in the field, but there are big choreographed fights on other shows, too, that work. Arrow's no longer do. 

 

Stunt work is one of my favorite things ever. I never notice the reuse of sets like other viewers, but I do notice poor stunt work.

 

While Arrow's stunt work has declined - I don't think season ONE of DD was better.  I mean, there were still instances where I saw the punches not connect and frankly for me - the fight sequences were boring.  I don't think I've ever been bored by a fight sequence before in my life.  But I think- and hope - that part of that was because at some point I just got sick of seeing Matt get beat up.  I am hoping I feel differently in season two.

 

I think the thing that Arrow fails at is doing group fight sequences.  There have been a couple of times this season where two people were fighting one bad guy and it seemed so obvious that they just had too many people in the field.  On the other hand, the fight sequence in the Civil War previews where Bucky and Cap team up looks just amazing.  I think it's a special skill to choreograph team fights vs one-on-one fights.  Arrow does one-on-one just fine for the most part whereas LoT can show the entire team engaged in fight sequences really well in my opinion. For Arrow to improves its fight scenes - they either need to get someone who can make the group scenes work or go back to one-on-one fighting.

[FurryFury]

I actually missed Matt getting beat up in season 2. At some point, the fights became too easy and boring. I've found myself not paying any attention to them and wishing to fast-forward.

 

I did love Frank's action scenes because they felt much more dynamic and brutal compared to Matt's endless knock-outs (and we're supposed to believe nobody he's beaten died because of blood loss or anything).

Edited March 21, 2016 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

I actually missed Matt getting beat up in season 2. At some point, the fights became too easy and boring. I've found myself not paying any attention to them and wishing to fast-forward.

 

I did love Frank's action scenes because they felt much more dynamic and brutal compared to Matt's endless knock-outs (and we're supposed to believe nobody he's beaten died because of blood loss or anything).

Oh good - maybe there's a chance I will enjoy them then. Although the one scene where he did beat up a lot of people in season one (when he was saving the kid) was a bit much for me too. I don't know why I'm hard to please with this on DD - maybe it's because I actually liked the movie and loved the way they showed him fighting there and I keep wanting the show to match that.

[ComicFan777]

I think one of the reasons that the Arrow stuntwork doesn't look as polished this season is due to camera angles or not enough takes.  With stunt fighting, it is important to take many different camera angles for each action, which becomes even more important when you add more principle characters you have to focus on.

 

With a small budget, this limits the number of camera angles that can be taken - when you up the characters but not up the budget, then the number of camera angles doesn't increase proportionally with the number of fighters which means not enough camera angles for a realistic action shot.  That's why you see some shots where the fighters don't even look like they came into contact with their opponent - it looks like they are kicking or punching air instead of their opponent - because they needed another camera angle. 

 

Uncoordinated actors make this an even bigger problem because they have to stand a little farther from their opponent to not accidentally hit/hurt them (due to lack of control), so more camera angles are required for a realistic shot.  A punch can look pretty awful when it doesn't even look like it touches the opponent - that's a camera angle problem. 

 

Other ensemble casts have budgets that already take into account how much camera work is needed.  The problem with Arrow is that they changed it this season and probably maintained the same budget they always had.

[dtissagirl]

Arrow films with 3 or 4 cameras, depending on the action sequence, which gives them more than enough coverage. They usually have 2 Arri Alexas on dolly plus a stradycam, even when filming in studio. And then on external locations there's often a camera high on a crane too. The problem really isn't with the camera crew.

[ComicFan777]

If you have four cameras on a person stunt fighting, then you've captured enough angles.  When you add three more fighters in the mix and maintain 4 cameras - there would be at least one fighter that will look like they haven't come in contact with an opponent because all fighters are not moving in the same direction and timing with respect to the cameras.  You naturally need to get more camera angles or takes to ensure each character appears that they have come into contact with the opponent.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[dtissagirl]

But that's not how filming with multiple cameras work. No matter how many cameras are on a set, they're always shooting one sequence/shot at a time*. If the shot is a one-on-one fight, all cameras are filming that. If the shot is a wide frame of many simultaneous fights, all cameras are set for wide frames from different angles.

 

*Sometimes there's a camera that will just do master shots [the widest possible frame a set allows], but that camera isn't gonna be shooting anything during a close-up, for example, because the camera filming the close-up will be in the way.

Edited March 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[ComicFan777]

Actors are not supposed to actually hit their opponent due to safety issues.  To compensate for this, best camera angles are taken to show the audience the appearance of impact of an effective kick.  If we as the audience see onscreen an actor's kick is a foot away from the opponent (with no contact at any time), then another camera angle clearly is needed to demonstrate an effective action shot.  No matter how much coverage you have - wide or up close - if it doesn't effectively capture a person kicking their opponent, then coverage was not captured at the correct angle.  More camera angles or at least better camera angles would have taken care of this.  Since we see many action sequences where no contact is seen between fighters, clearly the shots are not taken at the best angles for the given action sequence.

[dtissagirl]

I understand all that. But you were arguing that they needed more coverage [more camera angles], which I don't agree at all. Now you're saying they need BETTER camera angles -- which is a directing issue. That I agree with. But that has nothing to do with the camera crew, or that they have insufficient coverage. They just have bad coverage. Because I'm pretty sure Bam Bam is directing almost all stunt sequences as 2nd unit director, and he's not very good at it.

Edited March 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

Most of Sara's fight scenes on LoT are filmed pretty well. I would think Arrow's would be too since it's mostly the stunt doubles doing the fighting and they know how to stage fight. The only issues would be if the actor wants to do the fight scene when they are not trained in stage fighting and have to be further away from their opponent to not hit them. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

Re the plot of DD S2, I STG I have absolutely no idea what happened. I guess I wasn't watching carefully enough, but I'm in the same boat as at least a lot of other people on Twitter. I dug it, bc I like quite a few of the characters (LOVED Frank), but really, gun to my head could not tell you what was going on with DD and Elektra and

the teenage zompires and the ninjas and black sky and the chaste and the hand and that coffin thing and what they wanted from anybody. Also, what happened in Kandahar? The one-armed colonel went after Frank for, we found out, what happened in Kandahar, but they didn't say, and then Frank shot him, found the motherlode of guns, and never explained? I mean we know Frank supposedly saved everybody in Kandahar, but something else must have happened, too.

DD got beaten up quite a bit in S2, especially by Frank. Those fights were brutal.

Edited March 21, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[nksarmi]

Most of Sara's fight scenes on LoT are filmed pretty well. I would think Arrow's would be too since it's mostly the stunt doubles doing the fighting and they know how to stage fight. The only issues would be if the actor wants to do the fight scene when they are not trained in stage fighting and have to be further away from their opponent to not hit them. 

 

In my very early years of college, I took a few lessons in stage combat.  On a stage - particularly a traditional stage where the audience essentially has only one view - it is relatively easy to achieve the correct blocking so that punches, kicks, etc... appear to connect even though they don't.  I believe that in film, it is a more difficult task and that is why ComicFan is saying camera angles are so important - because it simply cannot be done entirely by the stunt coordinators.

[Trini]

Crossover promo:

[Primal Slayer]

I was so disappointed that they took the easy way out just to keep Kara in the DEO.

[nksarmi]

All I can say is that while one episode of Barry and Kara can hold me - they better bring back Hank and Alex stat because those two MAKE the show for me.

[statsgirl]

I thought it they wrote it this way to keep Lucy around.  It seems like they love her and now they have to bend things into twisty shapes to keep her. Remind you of anyone?

 

I'd be up for scenes of Hank and Alex on the run.  Are they flirting with them as a ship or is that just my imagination?