S04.E11: A Dark Knight: Queen Takes Knight

[The Kings Foot]

9 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I’m a little confused on this - I thought Fox broadcasting wasn’t part of the Disney deal (but the cable channels and Hulu were)?

Ah turns out you are right. FOX TV broadcasting  is not part of the deal 

9 hours ago, WritinMan said:

Disney is looking to buy certain properties from Fox (rumored to be things like the X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc.). They are not trying to purchase Fox (the company).

Actually its waaay more than that. The only thing not being sold are Fox tv broadcasting, Fox news and Fox sports. 

Up for sale are 20th century fox movie studio, fox tv production studios, Hulu, National geographic channel and FX channel. 

[festivus]

This episode was the bomb. I love, LOVE, Sophia, I'm so glad it will be her running the city and calling out Jim on his hypocrisy. I always love seeing Barbara and The Pussycats, those three could have their own show and I'd watch it. Selina needs to duck out for a while and go slap some sense into Bruce though. Between Alfred and Harvey, my heart was broken. The only thing I didn't like was Ed thinking he's in love with Lee. I would have liked that to just stay a really odd friendship,

[Chaos Theory]

The debate about how guilty is Jim Gordon is probably the most interesting one of the whole series and is widely dependent on how you view the character and justice in general.  There is a direct line between him not committing one act of cold blooded murder (Killing Penguin in the Pilot) and almost every murder after (several which Jim committed himself).  How many would have been avoided if Jim had killed Penguin when Falcone ordered him too?   Hell you could make a case for Barbara Keen’s insanity going all the way back to this first act.

And THAT is a whole other conversation in itself.  But we won't even get into Barbara Keen and just how culpable Jim Gordon is for that ball of crazy because that could take paragraphs.  We will just stick with Gotham itself......Every decision Jim made and every indignity Jim couldn't stomach had a body count and a lot of the body count was the GCPD.   Yes some of it Jim was probably 100% innocent of  (I'd put Nygma  trying to frame him for murder in that category and the whole Jim in Blackgate thing is fuzzy for me so ??????) but alot of it was him being all "I AM THE LAW!!!!!" and if he had backed down just a little the body count might have not been so high.  

Which is why I love Sophia and the slap down she gave Jim because it is essentially true even if it isn't morally true.  Yes Penguin's crime law thing was wrong on so many levels but it did keep the GCPD alive and crime actually down.  The murder rate in Gotham was at an all time low but Jim couldn't stomach it so he went to a mobster who by the way HATED HIM to ask for help.  What exactly did Jim expect Falcone to do?   Nicely ask Penguin to leave and then leave Gotham himself?   

My big question is what was Jim expecting from Falcone when he went to visit him?  

Because what he ended up with was a monster far worse then Falcone or Penguin.....Falcone's angry angry daughter.  

And its all Jim Gordon's fault.  

Edited December 9, 2017 by Chaos Theory
Clarity

[paigow]

If the Gary Oldman Commissioner Gordon had not been outed as a liar [i.e. Heroic Harvey Dent] then this TV Gordon would be incongruous. Now all the shortcuts and shady deals of young Gordon are expected....

[Danielg342]

Even if Jim Gordon says that Pyg was Sofia's idea and he was deceived into accepting him, Jim still has to answer for murdering Mario (and there would be no witnesses who can testify that Jim acted in defending Lee, since not even Lee believed him), Penguin's lackey at the beginning of S2 and murdering Theo Galavan, among many other misdeeds.

Furthermore, Sofia could testify that Jim approved of Pyg's presence, and I'm not sure the Commissioner- who was on board with Penguin's licenses- would be happy to know Jim put into motion events that led to a GCPD-Penguin War and all those lost cops.

Of course, Jim would say "I'm only trying to do the right thing" and he'd be right. However, the powers that rule Gotham- and keep him employed- would be justified in thinking "Jim's more trouble than he's worth".

[Chaos Theory]

32 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Even if Jim Gordon says that Pyg was Sofia's idea and he was deceived into accepting him, Jim still has to answer for murdering Mario (and there would be no witnesses who can testify that Jim acted in defending Lee, since not even Lee believed him), Penguin's lackey at the beginning of S2 and murdering Theo Galavan, among many other misdeeds.

Furthermore, Sofia could testify that Jim approved of Pyg's presence, and I'm not sure the Commissioner- who was on board with Penguin's licenses- would be happy to know Jim put into motion events that led to a GCPD-Penguin War and all those lost cops.

Of course, Jim would say "I'm only trying to do the right thing" and he'd be right. However, the powers that rule Gotham- and keep him employed- would be justified in thinking "Jim's more trouble than he's worth".

It’s not even just about that.  The fact that Jim even went TO A MOBSTER for help in the first place is hella shady and his double dealing with Sophia could turn what is now a half way functioning GCPD back into bottom feeding dark hole of corruption  that it was which is the exact opposite of what Jim wants.    

[paigow]

31 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Of course, Jim would say "I'm only trying to do the right thing" and he'd be right. However, the powers that rule Gotham- and keep him employed- would be justified in thinking "Jim's more trouble than he's worth".

Who would replace Gordon?

Bullock? Dent? Fox? Alfred?

[call me ishmael]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

Who would replace Gordon?

Bullock? Dent? Fox? Alfred?

Martin would be an improvement.

[paigow]

24 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

Martin would be an improvement.

He is going to be adopted by a family of circus acrobats...

[call me ishmael]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

He is going to be adopted by a family of circus acrobats...

Well, he has already shown more strategic sense than Bruce.

[jhlipton]

20 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Also, no one points out to Bruce that killing someone who had already outlived his natural lifespan several times over (and wanted to be put out of his misery) isn't murder, it's restoring the natural order.

Not to mention that Ra's released the Tetch Virus on Gotham, killing an unknown but significant number of people, as well as the antiquarian and his grand-son, the latter right in front of Bruce.  He should have shoved the knife and twisted it, saying "This is for [boy's name]!"

Again I say, Batman's "I will not kill" leads to both innocent people suffering and someone doing his dirty work for him.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It’s not even just about that.  The fact that Jim even went TO A MOBSTER for help in the first place is hella shady and his double dealing with Sophia could turn what is now a half way functioning GCPD back into bottom feeding dark hole of corruption  that it was which is the exact opposite of what Jim wants.    

Yeah. Sofia herself kept pointing this out. How exactly did Jim envision things being cleaner if Carmine had helped him? I can't help feeling it has something to do with her being a woman.

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Again I say, Batman's "I will not kill" leads to both innocent people suffering and someone doing his dirty work for him.

I think he should keep to it for most criminals and even most supercriminals, but Ra's Al Ghul is really a case unto himself. Besides, we all know he won't stay dead.

[Chaos Theory]

14 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Again I say, Batman's "I will not kill" leads to both innocent people suffering and someone doing his dirty work for him.

Its also something a child would say or something someone young might say.  And then Bruce murders someone out of anger.   I saw both as some growing pains and building blocks into building what Batman essentially is.  Why else would he create a whole mess of "weapons" that essentially stop criminals but also stop short of killing them?  Why have a bat-o-rang and not a gun?   Because Bruce Wayne doesn't want to kill people even criminals.  That is a line he is uncomfortable crossing.    A kid saying it out loud might sound kind of silly and honestly we all know that him killing people like Jerome may actually have stopped alot of crime just like Jim killing Penguin might have stopped alot of crime but it is something that makes for an interesting line in the sand for both men.  

Edited December 10, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 12/8/2017 at 4:49 PM, WritinMan said:

2) She has nowhere near the experience (or is old enough) to be as manipulative as her character is supposed to be.

Crystal Reed is 32.

[WritinMan]

5 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Crystal Reed is 32.

Doesn't change my opinion on her ability to be manipulative. Besides, it doesn't matter how old the actress is. How old is the character?

Edited December 10, 2017 by WritinMan

[paigow]

Mario was an established M.D. - likely in his early 30's.

Sofia should be mid- late 20's

[jhlipton]

12 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I think he should keep to it for most criminals and even most supercriminals

Once a criminal (super or not) has escaped from the sieves that are Blackgate and (more so) Arkham Asylum and killed at least one person, they have made themselves eligible to be killed on sight (which is kind of my death penalty thoughts in Real Life as well).  They are amenace to society and need to be put down like the dogs they are.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

44 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Once a criminal (super or not) has escaped from the sieves that are Blackgate and (more so) Arkham Asylum and killed at least one person, they have made themselves eligible to be killed on sight (which is kind of my death penalty thoughts in Real Life as well).  They are amenace to society and need to be put down like the dogs they are.

If you mean Jerome, then yeah. I just don't like the image of Batman doing it.

[Chaos Theory]

11 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

If you mean Jerome, then yeah. I just don't like the image of Batman doing it.

It’s also a debate that goes on through most of the versions of Batman.  Maybe even some of the other super hero stories.  How much of the damage did they create themselves?  It’s the whole chicken and the egg theory.  What came first?   Did Gotham create Batman or did Batman create Gotham?  This version of the story is saying  a little of both.....

[jhlipton]

55 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Did Gotham create Batman or did Batman create Gotham?  This version of the story is saying  a little of both.....

More Gotham  creating Batman in this version, I think.  Bruce didn't "create" Jerome, Oswald, Ed or the Pyg.  He's had very little to do with their story, thus far. Even Ra's, the one Bruce has had the most story with, was the way he was before Bruce was even born.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

More Gotham  creating Batman in this version, I think.  Bruce didn't "create" Jerome, Oswald, Ed or the Pyg.  He's had very little to do with their story, thus far. Even Ra's, the one Bruce has had the most story with, was the way he was before Bruce was even born.

...but did Jim, proto-Batman if you will, create Jerome, Oswald, Ed, Pyg et all with all of his shortcuts to gain the moral high ground?

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

...but did Jim, proto-Batman if you will, create Jerome, Oswald, Ed, Pyg et all with all of his shortcuts to gain the moral high ground?

The only one you could really make a good case for is Oswald.

Ed became the Riddler based on his fractured consciousness -- Jim didn't have anything to do with that.

Pyg (and Zsasz for that matter) was a contract killer before he came to Gotham.  He may have come to Gotham because of Jim, but Jim didn't create him.

As I recall, Jerome went insane because of his father. 

Jim may have made things worse (although I'd put that more on Hugo Strange, and the rest of the lunatics running Arkham Asylum).

Edited December 12, 2017 by jhlipton

[Danielg342]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

The only one you could really make a good case for is Oswald.

OK...but if Jim shoots Oswald, no one topples Carmine and order is maintained. Then maybe no one at Arkham does something crazy.

[jhlipton]

4 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

OK...but if Jim shoots Oswald, no one topples Carmine and order is maintained. Then maybe no one at Arkham does something crazy.

Indian Hill was set up before Bruce was born or Jim joined the force.  The people running Arkham have always been crazy!

[paigow]

The Wayne Family & The Flock Of Seagulls Owls started this centuries ago....

Actually, ripping Jim Gordon for working with criminals may be unjustified. [Falcone was with the Owls long ago] It may even be hereditary...[Uncle Frank & Dad] Not that this makes him smarter, just not uniquely stupid...

Edited December 13, 2017 by paigow

[Chaos Theory]

See even were’re Trying to figure out how deep the muck in Gotham goes.  Hell that was one of the major Bullock points from the start that you can’t fight Gotham’s darkness you can only survive it.  Jim not playing along at its best made things difficult for everyone and added a body count that wouldn’t have been their and added a dangerous player that would have been eliminated early otherwise.  Jim isn’t responsible for Gotham being Gotham but he often made things worse instead of better because he couldn’t stomach the stench.

[jhlipton]

49 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Jim isn’t responsible for Gotham being Gotham but he often made things worse instead of better because he couldn’t stomach the stench.

And Batman isn't responsible for Gotham being Gotham, but he makes things worse with his "I will not kill" policy.

[The Kings Foot]

On 08/12/2017 at 5:49 PM, WritinMan said:

I'm a little surprised by how popular Sofia seems to be as:

1) I don't think she's attractive enough to be as seductive as her character is supposed to be.

2) She has nowhere near the experience (or is old enough) to be as manipulative as her character is supposed to be.

I don't think her character is at all believable--and that's in a show with some bat-shit crazy characters.

Also, I hope the Douche Wayne story line wraps up soon. It's not very interesting.

Regarding physical appearance she reminds me of Sofia Coppola from The Godfather part 3.

[Kathemy]

I've known fifteen-years-old more manipulative than Sofia, I think she's easily more believable than, say, Lee, and she's more than attractive enough.

In fact she's so pretty it's disturbing.

[Danielg342]

10 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I've known fifteen-years-old more manipulative than Sofia

Well, the upshot is that her targets- Jim and Oswald- are pretty easy targets, especially Oswald. All she had to do is play to their obsessions- Jim's insistence on being a hero, Oswald's clamouring for attention and acceptance- and that would be it. No major work required.

Arguably, this whole season had been about how Jim and Oswald are so blinded by their journeys that they don't see the risks and the dangers, and Sofia proved that adage. Harvey Bullock spent all of S1 reminding Jim to be careful, but Jim never listened- and now he's paid the price for it.

[paigow]

On 12/14/2017 at 9:44 AM, Danielg342 said:

Harvey Bullock spent all of S1 reminding Jim to be careful, but Jim never listened- and now he's paid the price for it.

Harvey had some credibility issues- e.g. Fish Mooney - that could make Jim less receptive

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

Harvey had some credibility issues- e.g. Fish Mooney - that could make Jim less receptive

Fair point, although it still doesn't change the fact Harvey was right.

Jim also didn't seem too troubled by Harvey's involvement with Fish, perhaps because he thought she could help him take down Carmine Falcone.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Danielg342

[Ailianna]

On 12/8/2017 at 0:26 AM, Kostgard said:

things actually were better under Oswald's program,

Things might have been better for the main cast, for cops and criminals, but what about the actual people of Gotham, were were being victimized at will with no recourse to any type of justice?  Things were certainly not better for them!

On 12/9/2017 at 10:49 AM, Chaos Theory said:

The debate about how guilty is Jim Gordon is probably the most interesting one of the whole series and is widely dependent on how you view the character and justice in general.  There is a direct line between him not committing one act of cold blooded murder (Killing Penguin in the Pilot) and almost every murder after (several which Jim committed himself).  How many would have been avoided if Jim had killed Penguin when Falcone ordered him too?   Hell you could make a case for Barbara Keen’s insanity going all the way back to this first act.

And THAT is a whole other conversation in itself.  But we won't even get into Barbara Keen and just how culpable Jim Gordon is for that ball of crazy because that could take paragraphs.  We will just stick with Gotham itself......Every decision Jim made and every indignity Jim couldn't stomach had a body count and a lot of the body count was the GCPD.   Yes some of it Jim was probably 100% innocent of  (I'd put Nygma  trying to frame him for murder in that category and the whole Jim in Blackgate thing is fuzzy for me so ??????) but alot of it was him being all "I AM THE LAW!!!!!" and if he had backed down just a little the body count might have not been so high.  

Which is why I love Sophia and the slap down she gave Jim because it is essentially true even if it isn't morally true.  Yes Penguin's crime law thing was wrong on so many levels but it did keep the GCPD alive and crime actually down.  The murder rate in Gotham was at an all time low but Jim couldn't stomach it so he went to a mobster who by the way HATED HIM to ask for help.  What exactly did Jim expect Falcone to do?   Nicely ask Penguin to leave and then leave Gotham himself?   

My big question is what was Jim expecting from Falcone when he went to visit him?  

Because what he ended up with was a monster far worse then Falcone or Penguin.....Falcone's angry angry daughter.  

And its all Jim Gordon's fault.  

 

On 12/13/2017 at 4:23 PM, Chaos Theory said:

See even were’re Trying to figure out how deep the muck in Gotham goes.  Hell that was one of the major Bullock points from the start that you can’t fight Gotham’s darkness you can only survive it.  Jim not playing along at its best made things difficult for everyone and added a body count that wouldn’t have been their and added a dangerous player that would have been eliminated early otherwise.  Jim isn’t responsible for Gotham being Gotham but he often made things worse instead of better because he couldn’t stomach the stench.

You can't really play this game with any accuracy, though. Say Jim does kill Penguin, then what?  We know Penguin's things don't happen, but we have no idea who rises up to fill his void.  And even lackey to Fish Mooney is a position that creates a void when it's empty.  You don't know what happens after that moment, or how it changes things.  You can say that things with Penguin wouldn't have happened, but you don't know if something equally bad, or even worse, would have happened instead.  It's like the science fiction stories where someone travel back in time to kill Hitler as a child--and then it turns out the Nazis control the entire world.  Or something.  Or, for a more seasonal metaphor, It's a Wonderful Life--without Jim Gordon, everything might be worse.  There's just really no way to know.

[jhlipton]

The most fun we've had on this forum in ages!

[Kathemy]

Quite belated out of a case of severe disappointment in the show, but I guess this had to be done.

Doux Reviews: Queen Takes Knight

[Danielg342]

I think, when it comes to the characters, it's easy for them to think that "had Jim killed Penguin at that dock, we would not be in this mess". We're trained, in our brains, to look for patterns and since most people only see the obvious, the one pattern they do see is this rise in chaos since Jim decided not to put a bullet into Penguin's head.

Ergo, naturally, many characters would think if Jim had killed Penguin, as he was supposed to, all this chaos would not have happened.

It doesn't occur to any of them that even if Penguin were dead someone else would have taken his place because that's what tends to happen when you have a culture of violence. If you're only as strong as your enforcers, then you only hold on to power until there's someone who can beat you.

Reaching that point is inevitable, meaning Carmine Falcone was really operating on a ticking time bomb. Eventually it will go off.

That said, the one point where I think this show has been effective in portraying is that Jim is fuelled by his ego. He wants so desperately to be "the hero" that he doesn't mind stepping on toes just to get there. Jim will rationalize everything as a "necessary evil" but, as the other characters point out, he leaves himself with few allies.

It's debatable whether or not a "true hero" would have emerged if Jim hadn't "played it safe", but one thing is clear- Jim hasn't made anything better since that day at the dock.

[Danielg342]

On 23/12/2017 at 5:04 AM, Kathemy said:

"Moving on to Grundy and Tabitha's story, this one is almost comical in its cynicism. There's a certain pornographic element to the imagery of Tabitha flailing away at the hapless, tied-up Grundy that's decidedly unsettling. In order to pinpoint it exactly: she's beating him up 'out of love'. Have a taste of that notion, then apply it to any of your favorite romantic relationships. "

Doux Reviews: Queen Takes Knight

While I understand- and agree, wholeheartedly- that the idea that it's "OK" for a woman to hit a man and not vice versa under any circumstances during a story is laughable at best, I'm OK with Tabitha beating Grundy. Solomon Grundy is, after all, not human- he's a mutant with superhuman strength who I'm not sure even feels pain when he's been struck. Grundy may appear to be a biological human but he isn't one anymore, and an argument may be made that he actually enjoys the pain.

Now, I grant that if Tabitha had gained Grundy's super-strength the show would be skittish about the idea of having Butch "beat" the love back into her. Of course, I would find this unfair if it were to happen, but if it did, I'd be able to rationalize it's OK for the same reasons as Tabby beating Grundy.

Unfortunately, audience viewing habits make one scenario more palatable than the other when it shouldn't. I would like to think we'll eventually come around, but we will need patience first.

[jhlipton]

14 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

the idea that it's "OK" for a woman to hit a man and not vice versa under any circumstances during a story is laughable at best,

In fiction, when a woman hits a man, it's generally for REASONS!!!!  He's a villain, he's trying to kill her, whatevs.  In real life, men tend to hit women more than vice versa, and often for no reason other than "pride".  I'm not opposed to the trope in theory, it's just completely overboard, I think.

[Danielg342]

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

In fiction, when a woman hits a man, it's generally for REASONS!!!!  He's a villain, he's trying to kill her, whatevs.  In real life, men tend to hit women more than vice versa, and often for no reason other than "pride".  I'm not opposed to the trope in theory, it's just completely overboard, I think.

I don't think real life is that simple- it never is- but that's another debate.

In fiction, the obverse is (if we're really interested in gender equality) is that there should be instances where it would be OK for a man to hit a woman. If I have a male captive at the hands of a female captor and I write a daring escape, I should be able to have the man rain blows upon the woman without a fuss, since the man is only attacking the woman in order to escape.

I understand why there's a certain "allowance" for female characters to hit male ones, though however good intentioned it may be, it leads to many unfortunate circumstances. If we say it's okay for women to hit men in fiction because "women are weaker" then it's not a very complimentary view of women in general, and it denies that there are women who are stronger than men. If we say it's okay for women to hit men in fiction because we're "ending oppression" it leads to the unfortunate implication of viewing all men as oppressors and all women as the victims, when reality is far more nuanced than that and doesn't address that "the patriarchy" is a state of mind and a cultural attitude that some men reject and some women will buy into.

So, getting back to the show, I will agree that the show has taken the "women can hit men" trope to ridiculous levels.

The most obvious example to me is how the Sirens seem unable to take a hit from any male they encounter, even if it would make sense for someone to lay a hand on them. I remember Selina's "training fight" scene where she fought over a dozen men and not one laid a blow on her, which is extremely unrealistic. Same thing when Bruce and Selina encountered the younger Gilzean- Bruce took all the whacks and Selina emerged unscathed.

In fact, I could be wrong but I don't think a female character has taken a blow from a male character since Selina got slapped by Alfred, which I believe made narrative sense at the time. I get that networks are squeamish about violence against women, but I don't think it should come with a message saying it's OK to be violent against men, and if something makes narrative sense then I expect the writer to use it.

Certainly if we're going to buy Selina and Tabby as fighters then they should get some blows from the men they fight. Just like Bruce, Alfred and Jim have.

[Kathemy]

Saving a real reply until later but Tabitha's taken a fair deal of punishment, she almost died at the hands of Theo.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I don't think real life is that simple- it never is- but that's another debate.

This is true. 

Agents of SHIELD had a scene where a teen girl was on  the losing end of a violent fight , until she learned to harness her power.  Even though she did win and the fight made sense in context, the scene was disturbing to a lot of people. 

Speaking of "other debates", we could probably go a few rounds on the definition of "patriarchy" and whether it is just a "state of mind".  Race is largely a social construct, but racism is not a state of mind.  But that is waaaaaaaaay off topic!

[paigow]

On 12/25/2017 at 10:28 PM, Kathemy said:

Saving a real reply until later but Tabitha's taken a fair deal of punishment, she almost died at the hands of Theo.

Talking about hands, she and Butch / Grundy could justifiably change their last names to Skywalker...or Coulson...

[paigow]

On 12/25/2017 at 10:14 PM, Danielg342 said:

If I have a male captive at the hands of a female captor and I write a daring escape, I should be able to have the man rain blows upon the woman without a fuss, since the man is only attacking the woman in order to escape.

Did you write ST:Discovery? Where Ash beats his female Klingon captor until Lorca stops him so they can actually escape...

[Danielg342]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

Did you write ST:Discovery? Where Ash beats his female Klingon captor until Lorca stops him so they can actually escape...

Haven't seen Star Trek: Discovery, so I didn't know about that scene. I must applaud them for doing that.

[Miss Dee]

I don't want to give away spoilers for Discovery, but: there's also a plot trauma that's often given to female characters for them to work through that was given to a straight male character instead, and the show appears to be addressing it rather seriously. That's refreshing too.

[John Potts]

Did nobody else (in Gotham) wonder why Penguin would kill the man who just made him King? I immediately went, "Sofia did it!", with the possibility it might be Pyg. I admit, I didn't see it might be both of them (particularly as he drove a knife through her hand a couple of episodes back!)

And all the break ups: Penguin and Zsasz, Bruce and Alfred, Jim and Harvey... Jim and Sofia (OK, I don't care about the last one). At least Tabby and Grundy may be getting back together. I'm guessing Bruce will find that picking up his own crap and having to get his own meals (well, pick up the pizza boxes, at least) will pall when there's nobody he's actually rebelling against - I expect Alfred will leave town, but give his contact details to Jim.

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:16 AM, Danielg342 said:

this episode is entirely worth it to see Sofia Falcone put Jim Gordon in his place in the most awesomest way.

That was great! It's almost like she's some sort of crime boss he forgot he was dealing with because she had BOOBS (which were, admittedly, very distracting).

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 3:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Love makes you do crazy things, sometimes.  Like smacking your undead soul mate in the head with a pipe over and over again, in an attempt to get his memories back!

It was cute (in a weirdly psychotic way!) to try, but I couldn't help thinking it perhaps wasn't the best idea to beat on an invincible guy who used to fight in death matches where he murdered every one of his opponents?

While I accept that "legal stuff" is not exactly Gotham's strength, but why exactly was Penguin sent to Arkham? Other than a little (entirely reasonable!) paranoia, he's perfectly sane. Shouldn't he be in Blackgate? I accept the need to reuse sets, but couldn't they just redress the Arkham set to make it look more like a regular prison? Did like seeing Jerome again, looking more Joker-y than ever.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎09‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:52 PM, festivus said:

This episode was the bomb. I love, LOVE, Sophia, I'm so glad it will be her running the city and calling out Jim on his hypocrisy. I always love seeing Barbara and The Pussycats, those three could have their own show and I'd watch it. Selina needs to duck out for a while and go slap some sense into Bruce though. Between Alfred and Harvey, my heart was broken. The only thing I didn't like was Ed thinking he's in love with Lee. I would have liked that to just stay a really odd friendship,

Yeah, the Sirens are a kick in the head, I just hope Ivy joins soon. 

 

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:32 AM, paigow said:

Who would replace Gordon?

Bullock? Dent? Fox? Alfred?

Harper? Come to think of it what happened to Alvarez?

 

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:51 AM, jhlipton said:

Not to mention that Ra's released the Tetch Virus on Gotham, killing an unknown but significant number of people, as well as the antiquarian and his grand-son, the latter right in front of Bruce.  He should have shoved the knife and twisted it, saying "This is for [boy's name]!"

Again I say, Batman's "I will not kill" leads to both innocent people suffering and someone doing his dirty work for him.

Then he would essentially be The Punisher, Batman needs that moral line in the sand. 

 

On ‎25‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:14 PM, jhlipton said:

In fiction, when a woman hits a man, it's generally for REASONS!!!!  He's a villain, he's trying to kill her, whatevs.  In real life, men tend to hit women more than vice versa, and often for no reason other than "pride".  I'm not opposed to the trope in theory, it's just completely overboard, I think.

When Carmine hit his daughter I was outraged. But then we wonder why she's prepared to kill him?

Edited June 20, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:55 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Let's not forget that when they first got acquainted she cured him of Penguin's conditioning by whipping him for a very long time.

Kinky!

 

On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:23 PM, darkestboy said:

Really could do without Nygma falling for Leslie though, 8/10

I liked that, shows Ed is still in there somewhere. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Well goodbye to Penguin's toady(?) which is a shame as I really liked him and I think he had begun to grow on the fans.

2.  Goddam, I winced when Falcone hit his daughter, you realise why she might have been prepared to kill him (and was she poisoning him all along? Is that why he seemed healthier now than when we saw him in Mexico?). Mario really was the best of this family.

3. Watch the shootout scene again, you can clearly hear the distinctive sound of Pyg's sniper rifle over the rattle of the M60. 

4. So Barbara realises Sophia and Jim were an item? Still seems to hurt her.

5. Love the Sirens, more of a team than ever, the little looks between them are priceless. 

6. Our boy Zsaz shows his true colours. Question is will he kill Martine in order to provide a certainty to the charges against the Penguin? 

7. Goodbye Pyg and Don Falcone, not often you get 2 popular recurring characters offed in the same ep? 

8. So why is Penguin in Arkham rather than Blackgate? Or is this a move on Jim's part to avoid him going to trial and have his corrupt judges let him off?

9. The Penguin and Jerome, what a pair. You wonder at their conversations;

Oswald; "Yeah, I utterly adored my parents and they loved me unconditionally"

Jerome; "Really? I hated mine and killed them both" 

10. So, I guess I owe an apology to those who I derided for thinking Pyg was Sophia's agent, I thought their conversation when he was posing as the chef negated the possibility but I guess that was all part of the act?

11. Poor Butch, poor Tabby, you wonder if it would have been more merciful to leave him as Grundy? Ignorance is bliss? Barbara seems to sense where she's going but makes no move to stop her. Ed's return to being the Riddler seems inevitable which is sad as I rather like the bond that seems to have arisen between him and Lee. 

12. Harvey leaves his gun and his badge in that great US cop cliché, I like the character and hope this isn't the last we see of him but you think it might be for the best if he left the force, he seemed happier when we saw him do that before. 

[Joe Hellandback]

One last thing, Bruce and the bimbos! Incurable romantic as I am I always thought he and Selena would have their first time with one another (assuming she's not more than just Tabby and Barbara's 'pet'?). But if he's having threesomes with nubile teenage nymphettes, good for him.