S13.E07: War of the Worlds

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a problem in the storyline though. The only two characters who ended up being trapped in the AU were Mary and Lucifer.

If Lucifer was the only one trapped, then keep it solely about him. But they trapped the resurrected mother of the main protagonists with the mortal enemy of one of the main protagonists.

They featured her with him in the revisits to the AU but nope this one time, she's just an afterthought to remind the audience, oh yeah Mary is there

Actually, I'm going to retract something. I would rather they never mentioned Mary at all than as an afterthought line from Lucifer. Because at that point Mary did become germane. And if she gets a mention then she should be shown insoem way.

I'm salty about Lucifer having escaped and Mary is stuck.

I agree about this. Though I didn't mind the mention of Mary because at least we know she's captured by Michael too. 

But I also do have another issue. Now, the issue is when they're going to show Mary again. The problem is that they have no main cast members in the AU, which means we're either going to get forced AU scenes with Mary and Michael, or they're going to have to force a main character to be put back in the AU world. I already get annoyed when we have scenes cut to Asmodeus and his henchmen, because I just simply don't care. I didn't particularly care about Lucifer to begin with, but he's still a main character and his story with Mary had some potential for something new. Until we get a scene of the Winchesters finding Lucifer/Cas and having them fill the boys in on Mary's status, they aren't looking for her or trying to get to the AU world. So, at this point, if we do cut to the AU world, for me, it'll feel like scenes that are taking away from the other bazillion plotlines, but mostly with Sam and Dean.

And, quite frankly, what types of scenes are we going to be getting, anyway? Michael ranting about how he's going to cause another apocalypse while Mary snarks as she's getting tortured? Is she going to somehow escape with the help of *insert AU character here*? 

My issue is definitely too many bad guys and too many subplots. I mean, I'd gladly sacrifice Asmodeus and his band of Not So Merry Demons for the AU world. It also feels like they're wasting the potential of the AU world. Michael's not that bad right now, better than Asmodeus, but still has potential as a character that I just feel like they'll waste. 

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

'm salty about Lucifer having escaped and Mary is stuck.

I can see that.  LOL!  I think once we knew that Lucifer wasn't intending to just kill Mary outright, we could let our guard down just a bit.  He even protected her for the AU hunter.  Now that Lucifer's escaped, I guess we could or should be wondering just what Mary's fate is with Michael, but he didn't really seem to have much of a beef with her, specifically.  Of course, that means he could just kill her because why not, but I think he might be intrigued enough as to why Lucifer thought she was important to at least keep her alive for a while.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I agree about this. Though I didn't mind the mention of Mary because at least we know she's captured by Michael too. 

But I also do have another issue. Now, the issue is when they're going to show Mary again. The problem is that they have no main cast members in the AU, which means we're either going to get forced AU scenes with Mary and Michael, or they're going to have to force a main character to be put back in the AU world. I already get annoyed when we have scenes cut to Asmodeus and his henchmen, because I just simply don't care. I didn't particularly care about Lucifer to begin with, but he's still a main character and his story with Mary had some potential for something new. Until we get a scene of the Winchesters finding Lucifer/Cas and having them fill the boys in on Mary's status, they aren't looking for her or trying to get to the AU world. So, at this point, if we do cut to the AU world, for me, it'll feel like scenes that are taking away from the other bazillion plotlines, but mostly with Sam and Dean.

And, quite frankly, what types of scenes are we going to be getting, anyway? Michael ranting about how he's going to cause another apocalypse while Mary snarks as she's getting tortured? Is she going to somehow escape with the help of *insert AU character here*? 

My issue is definitely too many bad guys and too many subplots. I mean, I'd gladly sacrifice Asmodeus and his band of Not So Merry Demons for the AU world. It also feels like they're wasting the potential of the AU world. Michael's not that bad right now, better than Asmodeus, but still has potential as a character that I just feel like they'll waste. 

I'm wondering if something will come up with Mary and Dean as Michael's vessel. I mean at this point I'm foolishly hoping that something comes of that. Like maybe he does some kind of mind meld thing with Mary like he did Lucifer and figures out that Dean might be the key to stopping him from moving forward. Something like that.  Fat chance but maybe???

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

My issue is definitely too many bad guys and too many subplots. I mean, I'd gladly sacrifice Asmodeus and his band of Not So Merry Demons for the AU world. It also feels like they're wasting the potential of the AU world. Michael's not that bad right now, better than Asmodeus, but still has potential as a character that I just feel like they'll waste. 

I think we knew right from the first hints about this season that there was going to be a damn lot of stuff going on.  Too much, in my opinion.  This episode has just reinforced that.  Rather than picking one big bad, whether that was going to be Lucifer, Michael, Asmodeus or Jack...or now Ketch, we instead have all of them in play.  I would have preferred they pick one or maybe two, and focused on writing some coherent and entertaining episodes, but I think Dabb has ADD.  I don't know whether he's bored with Sam and Dean and needs all of the other characters as a distraction, or whether he thinks we are.   

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm wondering if something will come up with Mary and Dean as Michael's vessel.

I know that you and others really want this, Catrox, and I wish for your sakes that I could get behind it.  But I honestly don't want this.  Dean and Sam have supposedly been chosen by God to protect the universe, and I think it would be a slap in the face to Dean if when all is said and done, his only real purpose was to be used as an angel condom for Michael, to quote Dean himself.  He deserves a better fate than that, IMO.

Edited November 25, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know whether he's bored with Sam and Dean and needs all of the other characters as a distraction, or whether he thinks we are.   

I think Dabb wants a big ole SPN verse and TFW 1.0 or 2.0 is secondary but necessary to keep viewers coming back.  I feel sometimes like maybe we are just the frogs that have been put into the big pot and the heat is being turned up and getting us used to life with far less TFW other wise we might just jump out of that pot before they have made a new show.

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know that you and others really want this, Catrox, and I wish for your sakes that I could get behind it.  But I honestly don't want this.  Dean and Sam have supposedly been chosen by God to protect the universe, and I think it would be a slap in the face to Dean if when all is said and done, his only real purpose was to be used as an angel condom for Michael, to quote Dean, himself.  He deserves a better fate than that, IMO.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dean has to be Michael's vessel but I would like to see Jensen play Michael at least once before all is said and done.

Dean's been a vampire and a demon, both done against his will and without his consent (informed or not), the latter resulting in the Darkness being released. He was the only person who could be the soul bomb to get next to Amara. For me, if Dean has a clear mind and understands why he would be Michael's vessel and he's not being compelled to do it in some kind of nefarious plan like in s5 and is saves the world in some way, I see no reason why Dean wouldn't do it.

Maybe being Michael's vessel IS part of the work he has to do to protect humanity. :)

Edited November 25, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: Likewise maybe part of protecting humanity is him NOT being Michael's vessel but that's a redux of s5. Heck, I'd be happy if Dean kills Michael with a refurbished Lance of Michael

I'm just hoping that AU!Michael and Dean have some kind of meaningful interaction that acknowledges Dean's past history with Michael in whatever way.

[gonzosgirrl]

IMO, Asmodeus is the worst character they've introduced in a long time, maybe even ever. The mustache-twirling Colonel Sanders cheesieness aside, he's just..  blah. Not even a poor man's Azazel, never mind trying to replace someone with Crowley's charm. I hate the ret-conning of YEDs into shape-shifting Princes of Hell as it is, but this actor and character make it exponentially worse. Too bad they didn't let Dagon take over. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I know that you and others really want this, Catrox, and I wish for your sakes that I could get behind it.  But I honestly don't want this.  Dean and Sam have supposedly been chosen by God to protect the universe, and I think it would be a slap in the face to Dean if when all is said and done, his only real purpose was to be used as an angel condom for Michael, to quote Dean himself.  He deserves a better fate than that, IMO.

Who says he can`t protect the universe like that? They already established you can overcome an archangelic possession through sheer willpower so it wouldn`t be something new or outrageous. Or at least no more outrageous than it previously was. 

However, I would need Michael to be more fleshed out. Like I said, I was disappointed that he remained so incredibly one-dimensional in this episode. He seemed to have nothing going on beyond "want conquer other world". The scene where he probed Lucifer`s memories would have been perfect to at least drop a sentence or two in exposition on what happened in this universe. 

Quote

IMO, Asmodeus is the worst character they've introduced in a long time, maybe even ever. The mustache-twirling Colonel Sanders cheesieness aside, he's just..  blah. Not even a poor man's Azazel, never mind trying to replace someone with Crowley's charm. I hate the ret-conning of YEDs into shape-shifting Princes of Hell as it is, but this actor and character make it exponentially worse. Too bad they didn't let Dagon take over. 

I thought Dagon was pretty meh. Ramiel was okay for one episode though a total redo of Cain. Azazel remains one of the best, if not the best villain of the show IMO. Crowley was too frenemy so I`d put him up in his own category.

But Colonel Sanders? Yikes. Everything about him is just so hammy, just not in an entertaining way. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

35 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Who says he can`t protect the universe like that? They already established you can overcome an archangelic possession through sheer willpower so it wouldn`t be something new or outrageous. Or at least no more outrageous than it previously was. 

However, I would need Michael to be more fleshed out. Like I said, I was disappointed that he remained so incredibly one-dimensional in this episode. He seemed to have nothing going on beyond "want conquer other world". The scene where he probed Lucifer`s memories would have been perfect to at least drop a sentence or two in exposition on what happened in this universe. I

IMO it depends on what fans like yourself are talking about when they talk about Dean wrestling control from Michael. So far we’ve seen possesses be able to take over for seconds or a few minutes at Best. Bobby took over for the few seconds it took to stab himself instead of Dean or Sam just long to jump in the cage. So if Dean only wrestled control for the few seconds or minutes needed to do a specific task then sure. But I don’t want to see Dean being some super Mary Sue who can have full control over Michael for multiple episodes. 

 

Plus, I’m just not a fan of long term possessions. There’s a reason I hated the Gadreel storyline or the Casifier storyline. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

I think I'm delving into speculation territory, or maybe All Seasons, so I'll take my response somewhere else.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

ut I don’t want to see Dean being some super Mary Sue who can have full control over Michael for multiple episodes. 

 

Mary Sues don't sell their souls, get dragged into Hell, turned into a demon, murder 15 people and have failure after failure nor kill themselves to make deal or because they are really depressed. Mary Sues don't get shafted in the brains department nor lose their fighting skills over time or have to be rescued. No one hates Mary Sue characters and plenty of characters hate Dean and want him dead.

AUMichael seems to be willing to barter services, at least in this episode. He didn't kill AUKevin immediately for opening a one person portal. He told him to fix it.  He took info from Lucifer and used it for his purposes. Why does it have to be that Dean has to rest control from Michael at all. Maybe there is a reasonable agreement between them?

Maybe Dean plays Michael, lets him come into this world via Dean and then they trap Michael using the Egg of Magic Exorcisms. I mean I don't get where the whole idea of him carrying around Michael for days or weeks is coming from at all. I mean I didn't say that.

Edited November 25, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why does it have to be that Dean has to rest control from Michael? Maybe there is a reasonable agreement between them or maybe Dean plays Michael, lets him come into this world via Dean and then they trap Michael using the Egg of Magic Exorcisms. I mean I don't get where the whole idea of him carrying around Michael for days or weeks is coming from at all. I mean I didn't say that.

I did reference both long term and short term in my reply? I said I wouldn’t mind if it was short term like it was with Bobby or Sam. I just don’t want to see it long term. And an action can be considered Mary Stu like (in this case being able to magically control an archangel for a  long period of time when everyone else has only been able to control them for a few minutes at most) without it meaning the whole character is a Mary Sue. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So if Dean only wrestled control for the few seconds or seconds needed to do a specific task then sure. 

That`s actually exactly what I`m thinking of because I do agree, anything else would be ludicrous. But right now Michael is such a blank cypher - and the actor doesn`t pop for me either - that I would feel it a waste to have Jensen playing him in any context. The character doesn`t have enough "character" right now to gauge any kind of performance. 

[Myrelle]

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Who says he can`t protect the universe like that? They already established you can overcome an archangelic possession through sheer willpower so it wouldn`t be something new or outrageous. Or at least no more outrageous than it previously was. 

However, I would need Michael to be more fleshed out. Like I said, I was disappointed that he remained so incredibly one-dimensional in this episode. He seemed to have nothing going on beyond "want conquer other world". The scene where he probed Lucifer`s memories would have been perfect to at least drop a sentence or two in exposition on what happened in this universe. 

I think they need to flesh out the Michael that's in the cage and HE, in his True Vessel(Dean), should be the one to defeat AUMichael.

That story could pretty much write itself, IMO.

All I'm watching for this season is to see if  they will finally, and at long last, allow Jensen to play that role-a role that he was born to play, IMO. 

And I don't care if it's only  for one episode. I just feel like I need to see Jensen play the Archangel Michael before this show ends or I will forever feel robbed of something big concerning this show.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

And an action can be considered Mary Stu like (in this case being able to magically control an archangel for a  long period of time when everyone else has only been able to control them for a few minutes at most) without it meaning the whole character is a Mary Sue. 

To me they only become a Mary Sue because of series of actions and overall characterization, not ONE action that seems OTT or whatever.  But that's just me YMMV

Anyway, my hope that Michael's relevance will be relevant to Dean in a meaningful way, which means it probably won't be that at all LOL. 

Maybe Michael is keeping Mary to be his vessel back to this world. Maybe people from the AU can't cross into our world for...reasons without using a person from this world to get back.  Kind of like Benny getting out of the human portal by riding around in Dean's arm. Hmmm

Just now, Myrelle said:

I think they need to flesh out the Michael that's in the cage and HE, in his True Vessel(Dean), should be the one to defeat AUMichael.

AU!Michael fights Michael!Dean? I LIKE THAT. Yes, yes that works. I'm on board that train

[Zanne]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I get that they are used in arty movies or even in this show they have used wonky shots, but those usually fell in line with the story of the episode. Like there were reasons to have that kind of shot.

Of course, my snarky side would say it's showing that Sam has a big head (read ego) and Dean is small and drunk in the corner and not being listened to or conversely that Dean is taking a back seat to Sam but that doesn't work either because they were mostly partners other than Dean being certain that Ketch was not his evil twin. 

 

Maybe it's a subtle reference to Dean being the "angel" on Sam's shoulder. I can't remember that scene or what they were talking about, but if it happened to be Ketch(?) then it could be symbolic of Dean being the voice of reason and Sam not listening (again). Dean was also over Sam's right shoulder which implies he's "right". I dunno. It was a weird choice.

[shoetingstar]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I agree about this. Though I didn't mind the mention of Mary because at least we know she's captured by Michael too. 

And, quite frankly, what types of scenes are we going to be getting, anyway? Michael ranting about how he's going to cause another apocalypse while Mary snarks as she's getting tortured? Is she going to somehow escape with the help of *insert AU character here*? 

My issue is definitely too many bad guys and too many subplots. I mean, I'd gladly sacrifice Asmodeus and his band of Not So Merry Demons for the AU world. It also feels like they're wasting the potential of the AU world. Michael's not that bad right now, better than Asmodeus, but still has potential as a character that I just feel like they'll waste. 

See Mary tortured would have been overkill. Not that it has ever stopped the show before. 

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think we knew right from the first hints about this season that there was going to be a damn lot of stuff going on.  Too much, in my opinion.  This episode has just reinforced that.  Rather than picking one big bad, whether that was going to be Lucifer, Michael, Asmodeus or Jack...or now Ketch, we instead have all of them in play.  I would have preferred they pick one or maybe two, and focused on writing some coherent and entertaining episodes, but I think Dabb has ADD.  I don't know whether he's bored with Sam and Dean and needs all of the other characters as a distraction, or whether he thinks we are.   

 

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dabb wants a big ole SPN verse and TFW 1.0 or 2.0 is secondary 

 

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: Likewise maybe part of protecting humanity is him NOT being Michael's vessel but that's a redux of s5. Heck, I'd be happy if Dean kills Michael with a refurbished Lance of Michael

I'm just hoping that AU!Michael and Dean have some kind of meaningful interaction that acknowledges Dean's past history with Michael in whatever way.

It's funny, This awesome celebratingdean tumblr is doing theme posts and this week is Divinity. So yesterday I was watching Season Five for the post I wrote. With all the different "ongoing" creature plotlines (meaning not the MOW variety) the boys have to face it's like a poor man's/knock-off/Bootleg version of that Season. My Christmas wish is that they would care to imitate that season's mostly coherent storyline and quality overall.

Now, I'm in the minority that was able to "enjoy" the episode, but that's because my bar is so very l-o-w. It's my coping mechanism. Because being offended at the show - no matter how valid is....effin' exhausting. There's just too much "nonsense" happening, too many opportunities of things I find annoying to highly offensive from a viewer standpoint. I mean just unfortunate things that could be avoidable if they cared enough to avoid them.   I mean there things I still dislike Season Five, sure, things I personally wish had gone differently. Howver, I could tell the creators CARED about he show and had some kind of plan overall and weren't just throwing stuff at a dartboard to keep their paycheck.

My favorite things were: 1- Dean getting to be smart and clever in figuring out Ketch-up was Ketch-up by how he looked speaking about Mary and his fighting moves, among other things. Did anyone find him unrecognizable, initially? 2-It was nice to see Kevin - hope he gets to meet/work with the boys on the other side. 3-No Mary in AU

I'm SO over the torture porn. I'm so over LUCIFER. I'm so over CAS GETS CAPTURED, FUCKS UP AGAIN STORYLINES. Can he play along with Dean and Sam for more than one episode for once? Are there really NO non-assy Angels? Enough, Show!

(personal pet peeve: I'm so mad Ketch gets to come back while Cassie continues to only exist in one episode of season one. *humph* )

Edited November 26, 2017 by shoetingstar

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, shoetingstar said:

ersonal pet peeve: I'm so mad Ketch gets to come back while Cassie continues to only exist in one episode of season one. *humph* )

LOL. That's funny. And now you're MY Spirit Animal about Cassie. I was always so annoyed that Dean went to Lisa instead of trying to find Cassie. LOL

On the plus side, if Cassie doesn't come back then she's probably going to outlive Dean LOL

[shoetingstar]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL. That's funny. And now you're MY Spirit Animal about Cassie. I was always so annoyed that Dean went to Lisa instead of trying to find Cassie. LOL

On the plus side, if Cassie doesn't come back then she's probably going to outlive Dean LOL

LOL! I wasn't kidding! Just imgaine me having to watch him "I see myself happy with you BS" in detail as I was typing the dialogue for my post lol. Blech. I still maintain that Lisa plus Ben was appealing to Dean vs. Just Bendy Weekend Lisa. But back on topic...Yeah, about that Evil Colonel Sanders...

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

LOL! I wasn't kidding! Just imgaine me having to watch him "I see myself happy with you BS" in detail as I was typing the dialogue for my post lol.

oh I didn't think you were joking! It was funny in that I totally agree.

[SueB]

I think Mary might get beat up a bit but is potentially useful to Michael so she remains safe.  First, Michael took a ride on Lucifer’s temporal lobe so he probably knows something about the Winchesters.  Plus Lucifer threw her under the bus for being the reason they were in the AU.  Which means she has use for a least intel and a possible bargaining chip if Michael figures out that Team Free Will is either an important enemy or a possible path to making it to ‘paradise’.  

I have zero problem with her lack of presence in the episode.  She was referenced and that’s enough IMO. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by SueB

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

See Mary tortured would have been overkill. Not that it has ever stopped the show before. 

 

 

It's funny, This awesome celebratingdean tumblr is doing theme posts and this week is Divinity. So yesterday I was watching Season Five for the post I wrote. With all the different "ongoing" creature plotlines (meaning not the MOW variety) the boys have to face it's like a poor man's/knock-off/Bootleg version of that Season. My Christmas wish is that they would care to imitate that season's mostly coherent storyline and quality overall.

Now, I'm in the minority that was able to "enjoy" the episode, but that's because my bar is so very l-o-w. It's my coping mechanism. Because being offended at the show - no matter how valid is....effin' exhausting. There's just too much "nonsense" happening, too many opportunities of things I find annoying to highly offensive from a viewer standpoint. I mean just unfortunate things that could be avoidable if they cared enough to avoid them.   I mean there things I still dislike Season Five, sure, things I personally wish had gone differently. Howver, I could tell the creators CARED about he show and had some kind of plan overall and weren't just throwing stuff at a dartboard to keep their paycheck.

My favorite things were: 1- Dean getting to be smart and clever in figuring out Ketch-up was Ketch-up by how he looked speaking about Mary and his fighting moves, among other things. Did anyone find him unrecognizable, initially? 2-It was nice to see Kevin - hope he gets to meet/work with the boys on the other side. 3-No Mary in AU

I'm SO over the torture porn. I'm so over LUCIFER. I'm so over CAS GETS CAPTURED, FUCKS UP AGAIN STORYLINES. Can he play along with Dean and Sam for more than one episode for once? Are there really NO non-assy Angels? Enough, Show!

(personal pet peeve: I'm so mad Ketch gets to come back while Cassie continues to only exist in one episode of season one. *humph* )

Yes to this entire post & I wish that I could like the bolded parts more than once!

[Commando Cody]

The angels have been on Earth for quite a while now. They should have already been breeding with humans. 

I actually thought about this - before this episode. I know angels think nephilim are, supposedly, an abomination. However, if they can breed more powerful beings, why wouldn't they do that?

I thought the way Rowena came back to life the first time was too contrived. To use it again - to bring Ketch back - just really sucked donkey balls. 

Bad episode. Bad new dark overlord. 

I can't believe they drudged stuff up that didn't work the first time. 

This episode was a turkey.  

Also, the angels have human bodies, I don't know why the vessels don't work to breed their own angel children. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Finally got home and could watch my DVR. Given what I had seen here and on Twitter I was prepared to hate it. But I didn't. I didn't love it either but I thought it was decent. The storylines wrapped together very nicely at the end with Ketch working with Asmodeus. And they set up a number of plotlines for the rest of the season. 

I wasn't excited about Ketch coming back but he didn't bother me. And I liked the Winchesters' interacting with him. Especially Dean interrogating him. That was hot. So glad the evil twin thing was a ruse. The way he came back left something to be desired but not as bad as evil twin.

I think Lucifer and Cas' scene in the bar/diner was pretty good. Lucifer as a human could be entertaining but I don't want anyone to forget he is evil.

I am enjoying AU Michael. I look forward to more from him. 

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

they set up a number of plotlines

I think it's too much 'bad guys overload'.  Too many baddies.  Too much going on.  And writers must continue peppering the season with MOTWs.  

Dean enters "Any news on (insert name here)?"  Sam taps on laptop  "Nada.  But I've found a job for us" 

 I'm just re-watching season 1 and things were so much simpler then.

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

The angels have been on Earth for quite a while now. They should have already been breeding with humans. 

I actually thought about this - before this episode. I know angels think nephilim are, supposedly, an abomination. However, if they can breed more powerful beings, why wouldn't they do that?

They aren't looking to evolve, but save their own species just as it is, but I'm guessing it has to do with fear more than anything. Evolution can be scary for some; those children would be more powerful than they are and would have the power to either kill off or rule over their parents.

52 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

Also, the angels have human bodies, I don't know why the vessels don't work to breed their own angel children. 

I don't think angels can reproduce. It seems like using their human host to make a child always results in a nephilim, humans and angels are just different species. I think the only way to make more angels is to have a being with God-like powers create them.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

LOL. That's funny. And now you're MY Spirit Animal about Cassie. I was always so annoyed that Dean went to Lisa instead of trying to find Cassie. 

But the character was so completely over Dean already when they parted ways back in Season 1. It wouldn`t surprise me if she couldn`t remember him now so for that reason I was happy he never tried to go to her again. 

Besides, they destroy nearly every character they ever bring back. With Ketch, I`m still more weirded out than anything else. I like the actor but I never thought there was so much untapped potential in him. He had a beginning, middle and end and to me it is super-random to just insert back into the story. Maybe they liked working with the actor so much? Even bringing him back for Mary seems redundant. She already killed him so that was closure.    

Quote

I think the only way to make more angels is to have a being with God-like powers create them.

I don`t quite follow the angels` logic here, though. On the one hand, they seem to believe Jack is powerful enough to have God-powers of creation. Which, I honestly hope not as that would be too ridiculous for me. He obviously is vastly powered but please leave him a step beneath God and Amara.

On the other hand, the angels think they can "make" Jack do what they want. He will be "put to work", in their own words. 

Really, angels, you plan to enslave God? Enlighten me on how that is going to work? If he is as powerful as he needs to be for their purpose, they can`t make him do shit. And if they are powerful enough to bully or coerce or otherwise force him, he doesn`t have the juice to create angels. Maybe angels are created super-stupid.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t quite follow the angels` logic here, though. On the one hand, they seem to believe Jack is powerful enough to have God-powers of creation. Which, I honestly hope not as that would be too ridiculous for me. He obviously is vastly powered but please leave him a step beneath God and Amara.

On the other hand, the angels think they can "make" Jack do what they want. He will be "put to work", in their own words. 

Really, angels, you plan to enslave God? Enlighten me on how that is going to work? If he is as powerful as he needs to be for their purpose, they can`t make him do shit. And if they are powerful enough to bully or coerce or otherwise force him, he doesn`t have the juice to create angels. Maybe angels are created super-stupid.

Well, that's pretty much consistent for angels; they just don't seem capable of independent thought and really aren't all that bright. They just assume they're the top of the pyramid and feel entitled to getting their way. So, yeah, I'm guessing they think Jack will just do what they want and if he doesn't they'll force him to do their will. Which is extremely stupid, but very angel-like, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

Here's a thought - maybe if the angels stayed in Heaven and stopped, you know, killing each other, they wouldn't be going extinct. They don't 'die' natural deaths, do they? FFS that is the stupidest plot line yet.

Edited November 26, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
angels and angles, not the same thing

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Here's a thought - maybe if the angles stayed in Heaven and stopped, you know, killing each other, they wouldn't be going extinct. They don't 'die' natural deaths, do they? FFS that is the stupidest plot line yet.

How dare you use logic!

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But the character was so completely over Dean already when they parted ways back in Season 1. It wouldn`t surprise me if she couldn`t remember him now so for that reason I was happy he never tried to go to her again. 

Eh, I didn't think she was totally over him. She didn't have any trouble sleeping with him again and being romantic with him in the episode. IMO, she just didn't believe they had a chance because of his life more than being totally over him. But that's just my view of that relationship. The whole Lisa thing is just a big non starter for me. I mean at least Dean spent more than one bendy weekend with Cassie in a NOT horrifying life situation.  But I'll take the rest of that to  another thread :)

[catrox14]

I don't see how the angels, if they want to remain "pure" angels, think Jack can make new angels though. If they never tried to make angels with other angels or even tried to capture an archangel to use it's grace, how would they do it?

It seems to me Jack's nephelim power is what they want. The other angels who saw Cas' dead body in the the lake house knew he was dead, and thus would be sent to the Empty, but now he's alive. I'm thinking maybe they have the 411 that Jack "woke up" Castiel from the Empty, and they want to make him "wake up" all the other angels in the Empty.

Edited November 26, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see how the angels, if they want to remain "pure" angels, think Jack can make new angels though. If they never tried to make angels with other angels or even tried to capture an archangel to use it's grace, how would they do it?

It seems to me Jack's nephelim power is what they want. The other angels who saw Cas' dead body in the the lake house knew he was dead, and thus would be sent to the Empty, but now he's alive. I'm thinking maybe they have the 411 that Jack "woke up" Castiel from the Empty, and they want to make him "wake up" all the other angels in the Empty.

Couple of things for consideration:

1) Kevin's presence reminds us that the Angel tablet is smashed in our world. UNLESS... dead Kevin can reassemble the pieces or Donatello can.  Possible.... but just a sticking point that at least as of now, we haven't gotten any sign that there's a recipe book for "how to make an Angel" as they were directly God's creation and not built to procreate with each other. Although.. have they tried?  

2) Jack, as a hybrid, is more powerful than an Archangel.  So maybe they think he can do SOMETHING. But I think "pure" is out of the question.  

3) It was a Buck-Lemming episode, so I'm thinking act as 'stud' may have been what was in their mind.  That would make... in theory... some creature with some level of Angelic power.  BUT, they'd be on earth.  Because humans can't physically transition to earth - that's why Kelly was going to die.  You shed your mortal body. Unless you are the vessel of an Angel.  Which brings me back to .. can a Nephil make it to heaven with their body?  I'm inclined to say 'no' because taking Kelly to heaven was supposed to kill the baby too.  And he was far enough along to 'live' outside the mother IF the baby was human. I don't know about the gestational limitations of a nephil. 

4) Wake up the dead.  Possible. But surely Cas is smarter than to tell them how he's alive.   Surely.... oh dear. 

 

Bottom line; I think "pure" was off the table. I think they were looking for some level of continuation of the species.  Which, IA, are immortal if they just stop putting themselves in danger and stop killing each other.  I also agree waking up the dead would be possible but I'm holding out hope Cas didn't tell them how he got back.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

4) Wake up the dead.  Possible. But surely Cas is smarter than to tell them how he's alive.   Surely.... oh dear

Depends on who knows about the Empty though?

Reapers know about it. Maybe a rogue reaper knows that Cas got out. And  went to the angels and they reckoned that Jack is how Cas woke up. 

And that raises the question of Billie. Shouldn't she be having a fit about Castiel being out of the Empty? How could she not care about that even in her new role of Death. Maybe that's another hint that Cas isn't Cas because he's still in the Empty and it's the entity who is topside so Billie isn't concerned because all the angels are still in the Empty.  Maybe that's just a big ole plot hole. LOL

[SueB]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Depends on who knows about the Empty though?

Reapers know about it. Maybe a rogue reaper knows that Cas got out. And  went to the angels and they reckoned that Jack is how Cas woke up. 

And that raises the question of Billie. Shouldn't she be having a fit about Castiel being out of the Empty? How could she not care about that even in her new role of Death. Maybe that's another hint that Cas isn't Cas because he's still in the Empty and it's the entity who is topside so Billie isn't concerned because all the angels are still in the Empty.  Maybe that's just a big ole plot hole. LOL

I rewatched the Cas/Dumah scene. 

Quote

Cas: It's imperitive I find Jack.
Dumah: You mean the nephilim?
Cas: Yes. Do the angels have him?

Seems to me that at least we can establish tha Cas did NOT talk about Jack with Dumah before going to meet with her.  That's good.  Could have found out otherways as you said, but however Cas established he got 'back', he didn't mention Jack by name is my guess.  

But it was clear from that scene that it was a set up.  That the angels have been thinking about how to "use" Jack.  

[DittyDotDot]

I've been laughing for years at the at the angels whining about how few of them there are, but yet there always is enough to have another angelic civil war or what not. Maybe the word "few" means something different in Enochian? At the very least, it's probably funnier! ;)

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

Wake up the dead.  Possible. But surely Cas is smarter than to tell them how he's alive.   Surely.... oh dear. 

Well, he told Sam and Dean he annoyed the keeper until he sent him back...granted that doesn't mean he'd tell the angels, but i'm not holding my breath that he won't. TBH, I'd guess the angels know something about the empty since reapers are literally angels of death now. I don't even think we need a rogue reaper on this front.

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

Jack, as a hybrid, is more powerful than an Archangel.  So maybe they think he can do SOMETHING. But I think "pure" is out of the question.  

I'm guessing the angels may not have the right end of the stick on this. I mean, maybe Jack can create something, but I'm guessing the only one who can create an angel is God. 

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

But it was clear from that scene that it was a set up.  That the angels have been thinking about how to "use" Jack.  

Yeah, I was wondering why they wanted him so much earlier in the season but thought maybe they wanted him to help restore Heaven and maybe give them their wings back. Making new angels sounds good, I guess, but I'm not sure they really thought it all through on how this was actually going to work. But, that's par for the course for angels.

Edited November 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I rewatched the Cas/Dumah scene. 

Seems to me that at least we can establish tha Cas did NOT talk about Jack with Dumah before going to meet with her.  That's good.  Could have found out otherways as you said, but however Cas established he got 'back', he didn't mention Jack by name is my guess.  

But it was clear from that scene that it was a set up.  That the angels have been thinking about how to "use" Jack.  

I'm getting the impression that you think I'm blasting Cas in some way and I'm not at all. I'm speculating on what the angels want with Jack and on how they might have come to know about the Empty IF they want to use Jack to wake up the other angels. I didn't say nor imply that Cas told them about the Empty or Jack waking him up.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm getting the impression that you think I'm blasting Cas in some way and I'm not at all. I'm speculating on what the angels want with Jack and on how they might have come to know about the Empty IF they want to use Jack to wake up the other angels. I didn't say nor imply that Cas told them about the Empty or Jack waking him up.

No... not at all!  I'm just musing right along with you. That's it.  I don't know why the Angels think Jack can bring back Angels.  I agree 'pure' seems like a no-go.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, he told Sam and Dean he annoyed the keeper until he sent him back...granted that doesn't mean he'd tell the angels, but i'm not holding my breath that he won't. TBH, I'd guess the angels know something about the empty since reapers are literally angels of death now. I don't even think we need a rogue reaper on this front.

Which is what I expected when Cas woke up but this dialogue tells me different. From 13.04.

 

Quote

CASTIEL
I know you’re there. I can feel you.
COSMIC ENTITY
Hello.
[The camera moves to reveal… a CASTIEL DOPPELGANGER. The COSMIC ENTITY has shifted into a perfect copy of Castiel.]
CASTIEL
What are you?
COSMIC ENTITY
Oh, I’m just your friendly neighborhood cosmic entity.
CASTIEL
Why do you look like me?
COSMIC ENTITY
Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Well, I show up in my real form, and you freak out, rip out your own eyes, et cetera. That would be embarrassing, wouldn’t it? For both of us.
CASTIEL
What is this place?
COSMIC ENTITY
Oh, yes. Excellent question. You see, before God and Amara, creation, destruction, Heaven, Hell, your precious little Earth, what was there?
CASTIEL
Nothing.
COSMIC ENTITY
Yes. That’s right. Nothing. Nothing but Empty. And you are soaking in it. Angels and demons, you all come here when you die.
CASTIEL
Every angel that ever died is here?
COSMIC ENTITY
Yes, sleeping an endless peaceful sleep. You know I… I was sleeping, too. Hey, uh, since we’re pals, there’s something I’ve gotta know. I’ve just gotta ask. Hmm. Why are you awake? ‘Cause fun fact—in all of forever, nothing ever wakes up here. I mean, ever. Ever. And second fun fact—when you woke up, I woke up, and I don’t like being awake. So…what’s up, smart guy?

Seems like the angels in general don't know about the Empty or maybe Cas forgot even though he seems to have his memories intact which the Cosmic Entity read. I think ONLY reapers know about it.  Back in s11 Billie said "One day a reaper might make a mistake and throw you into the Empty", which implies that is not a typical destination for humans.

Edited November 26, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Upthread I mentioned about the crosses behind both Dean and Michael's shoulders. I guess someone on Tumblr has a similar thought. I don't know what it means but it seems intentional to me. 

http://jensenisdeansnumberonefan.tumblr.com/post/167912230981/dean-and-michael-stills-from-episodes-1306-and

What I find interesting is that Dean's cross seems to highlight Castiel's return

and Michael's highlights him torturing Lucifer and seeking a portal out of the AU.

I haven't worked out what it all means but I just think it's really interesting. Is this Dean once more being the firewall? I dunno.

[catrox14]

[gonzosgirrl]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Upthread I mentioned about the crosses behind both Dean and Michael's shoulders. I guess someone on Tumblr has a similar thought. I don't know what it means but it seems intentional to me. 

http://jensenisdeansnumberonefan.tumblr.com/post/167912230981/dean-and-michael-stills-from-episodes-1306-and

What I find interesting is that Dean's cross seems to highlight Castiel's return

and Michael's highlights him torturing Lucifer and seeking a portal out of the AU.

I haven't worked out what it all means but I just think it's really interesting. Is this Dean once more being the firewall? I dunno.

Alas, I think this being anything more than oh, look, cool glowy things! is giving the show too much credit.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Alas, I think this being anything more than oh, look, cool glowy things! is giving the show too much credit

Eh. I don't agree with that. I think the show does a lot of symbolism in it's cinematography. Be it for story or just the folks on set liking it that way. That's just me :).

I always remember that everything that goes on screen is there intentionally. What those intentions are is a whole other kettle of fish. I mean like Sam's head had a moose over his shoulder. That was funny.

Edited November 26, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Eh. I don't agree with that. I think the show does a lot of symbolism in it's cinematography. Be it for story or just the folks on set liking it that way. That's just me :).

I always remember that everything that goes on screen is there intentionally. What those intentions are is a whole other kettle of fish. I mean like Sam's head had a moose over his shoulder. That was funny.

I should have clarified, I mean too much credit when it comes to connecting Dean with Michael. I do enjoy the cinematography of the show (except for the Giant Sam trend that's happening lately).

[Bobcatkitten]

Yeah, I think it's just basic symbolism of Christianity for the angels but I don't see any connection between the two scenes specifically.

[shoetingstar]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But the character was so completely over Dean already when they parted ways back in Season 1. It wouldn`t surprise me if she couldn`t remember him now so for that reason I was happy he never tried to go to her again. 

Besides, they destroy nearly every character they ever bring back. With Ketch, I`m still more weirded out than anything else. I like the actor but I never thought there was so much untapped potential in him. He had a beginning, middle and end and to me it is super-random to just insert back into the story. Maybe they liked working with the actor so much? Even bringing him back for Mary seems redundant. She already killed him so that was closure.    

 

The door was not completely closed. He even told Sam earlier that He and Cassie would be working out their issues until they were 90. I think her realistic hesitation should be more appreciated. Dean was focused on finding John and would traveling the country doing his job. Also Dean doesn't make promises lightly and seemed sincere in promising to see her again. It's safe to say that Kripke had such embarrassment for Bugs and Route 666 as a whole that he wanted to distance himself. Lisa was a Sera Gamble invention. And she ended up in Dean's dream sequence because they couldn't get the rights from Paramount (I believe) for Jason Voorhees, who was originally written to appear in the sequence! 

But yes, I am afraid of what they would do to Cassie if they actually brought her back. Especially after what they did to Missouri! Ketch may just be back for potential Mary conflict or Mary/Dean bonding over a common enemy. Neither are wanted from where I sit.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Eh, I didn't think she was totally over him. She didn't have any trouble sleeping with him again and being romantic with him in the episode. IMO, she just didn't believe they had a chance because of his life more than being totally over him. But that's just my view of that relationship. The whole Lisa thing is just a big non starter for me. I mean at least Dean spent more than one bendy weekend with Cassie in a NOT horrifying life situation.  But I'll take the rest of that to  another thread :)

Totally agree!

Edited November 27, 2017 by shoetingstar

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

And she ended up in Dean's dream sequence because they couldn't get the rights from Paramount (I believe) for Jason Voorhees, who was originally written to appear in the sequence!

Wait, what? LOL what's this story? Give me the scoop in the All Seasons thread!

[shoetingstar]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what? LOL what's this story? Give me the scoop in the All Seasons thread!

Okay posted over here: