S13.E06: Tombstone

[Diane]

GO AHEAD... MAKE MY DAY - Castiel (Misha Collins) is reunited with Jack (Alexander Calvert) and together with Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles), they head to a sleepy old western town to investigate a murder. Dean gets to live out his boyhood fantasy when he comes face to face with a famous, gun-slinging outlaw. Writer: Davy Perez Director: Nina Lopez-Corrado

[Pondlass1]

Dean's gonna look good anyways no matter what ?

[Mick Lady]

And catrox in 3...2...1...!

[catrox14]

Have an early post since it's my birthday!

Cas is back.

Back again.

Cas is back.

Tell a friend.

Cas is back,

Cas is back

Cas is back

[Katy M]

I think I really only have 2 things to say.

1. I love cowboys as much as Dean does.  Probably more.

2. Yay, Jack is gone for now, at least.

[MysteryGuest]

I think this one is going to require a second viewing for me to decide whether I liked it or not.  I certainly liked parts of it, but there's something that just seemed off to me.  I'm glad Cas is back, and I'm assuming it's our Cas but without any angel juice.  I enjoyed his reunion with Dean and Sam, but even that felt sort of anti-climactic.  It's probably just because I've known all along that Cas wasn't really dead.  Letting that cat out of the bag as quickly as they did certainly took some of the air out of any drama they might have been trying to get from his death last season.  I'm not sure they could have pulled off killing him and not telling people he wasn't really dead.  I think fans would have revolted.  But I just think they should have thought it out a bit better, because his death and return really haven't had much impact on me.  

Dean looked better in these cowboy duds than he did the last time he duded up, but even this time he was out of place.  Poor boy just can't catch a break.  He needs to do some sort of western larping to satisfy his cowboy cravings.  

The whole episode was obviously laying the groundwork for Jack to leave.  I wonder why he's not able to actually bring someone back from the dead?  He is part angel, and he certainly has more power than Cas does right now.  I guess they all have different skill sets.  

I think part of my issue is that we've gotten a few monster episodes lately, but the monster story is actually secondary to the forward movement of the main plot, so they're just not fleshing out the monsters in a way that's truly satisfying.  I miss that and wonder if we'll get that at all this season, considering how much else they have on their plates.  

I really was hoping Cas would come back a little fiercer, but it doesn't appear that he has.  He still has his mopey Cas face on.  I'm ready for powerful Cas again, please.

[Lady Calypso]

I'm not really sure how I feel about the episode to be honest.

I figured Jack would kill someone at some point, but I am loving that he's still fighting to stay good, at this point. I actually like the struggle arc they're showing. It's nice that he's not just going from good and not killing to evil and killing. I know where they're heading, but it's nice to see that he's not irredeemable when he inevitable turns dark.

I was just as taken aback by Dean's optimism as Sam was. Just like Dean questioning Sam's behaviour last episode, I was with Sam on at least questioning Dean. He's usually more cautious about people coming back from the dead. Maybe he's just tired and is accepting a win for once. And I do hope this doesn't bite Dean. I want to believe that this is really Cas. 

Conveniently, Jack probably has to leave because of Alexander's shorter contract for the season and they can't keep saying he's watching Netflix in the bunker.

I think I need to sit and process the episode for a while. I'm still a little unsure. I think I liked it? I did like Dean accepting Jack and trying to believe that he's fighting to be good. I mean, Dean has met monsters who can be good. I totally get his hesitation with Jack having Lucifer's DNA, but it's nice that he's willing to try to give him a chance. By all means, Jack is proving himself to want to be good, so that's something. 

Yeah, I'll comment more about how I feel once I figure it out.

[catrox14]

For a Davy Perez episode, it was positively good for Dean. /thud

Dean wasn't a dick, nor incompetent, and had fun. I'm sure the other shoe will drop but I think he's just enjoying living with his BF, his brother and even trying to accept Jack.

I loved that Dean made Cas watch Tombstone and I loved his sincere "Welcome home" and "It's good to have you back, Cas'

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean looked better in these cowboy duds than he did the last time he duded up, but even this time he was out of place.  Poor boy just can't catch a break.  He needs to do some sort of western larping to satisfy his cowboy cravings.  

Haunted dude ranch.  That's what they need.  Or, they could finally go on a chupacabra hunt which would clearly (for some reason) be most easily accomplished on horseback.   Or a ghost train.  From the old west.  And they have to board it by racing with horses.  I think I'm getting a wee bit obsessed here.  I'll take a step back.

[Wynne88]

So all 4 of them couldn't take out the ghoul despite having the drop on him (they were awful shots tonight); but Sam was fine going back to the bunker and leaving Dean to deal with it alone?  And apparently had no expectation of a phone call as soon as Dean was finished, since he asked how it went when Dean finally came home.  Even his question of 'how did it go?' was about as casual as it could possibly be.

Not a total fan of this episode, although there were parts that were okay.

[Katy M]

Just now, Wynne88 said:

So all 4 of them couldn't take out the ghoul despite having the drop on him (they were awful shots tonight); but Sam was fine going back to the bunker and leaving Dean to deal with it alone?  And apparently had no expectation of a phone call as soon as Dean was finished, since he asked how it went when Dean finally came home.  Even his question of 'how did it go?' was about as casual as it could possibly be.

Not a total fan of this episode, although there were parts that were okay.

I can't remember if it was Sam or Dean who suggested it, but I didn't really understand the suggestion that they go some place quiet so they can kill the ghoul.  I mean, I get it from their perspective, but why would the ghoul want to make their lives easier?  Answer.  He wouldn't.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

So all 4 of them couldn't take out the ghoul despite having the drop on him (they were awful shots tonight); but Sam was fine going back to the bunker and leaving Dean to deal with it alone?  And apparently had no expectation of a phone call as soon as Dean was finished, since he asked how it went when Dean finally came home.  Even his question of 'how did it go?' was about as casual as it could possibly be.

Not a total fan of this episode, although there were parts that were okay.

Yeah, I'm not sure who wrote this one, but it really wasn't one of the best.  Lot's of scenes that left you scratching your head.  I don't know much about ghouls, but do they normally have the ability to borough through dirt like that so quickly?  Wasn't it a ghoul that killed Adam?  I guess I just don't know much about them.  And this episode really didn't do much to enlighten me.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I was just as taken aback by Dean's optimism as Sam was. Just like Dean questioning Sam's behaviour last episode, I was with Sam on at least questioning Dean. He's usually more cautious about people coming back from the dead. Maybe he's just tired and is accepting a win for once. And I do hope this doesn't bite Dean. I want to believe that this is really Cas. 

All I keep thinking is Dean in Like A Virgin, talking about Sam being returned/resouled: 

DEAN: So, you know what? As far as I'm concerned, it's a gift horse, and I'm not looking for teeth. I'm sending Death a damn fruit basket.

So he's set a precedent for being blindly thankful when someone he loves is returned.  That's not to say it won't go south soon.  

[Pondlass1]

I agree.  It was so odd.  They took Baby so Dean had to find his own way back to the bunker ( stole a car or something) but surely on the ride home he called and filled them in.  Sam's casual how did it go was so odd.

I don't know how I feel about this episode yet, but at least Davey doled out some Dean action.  But he doesn't seem to consider the situation... Unless it's bad editing? 

The writing to get Jack or whoever out of the next few episodes always seems so weak

I wonder if the boots were Jensen's own?

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The writing to get Jack or whoever out of the next few episodes always seems so weak

I don't care how or why he's gone. I'm just glad he's gone.  I'm also not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.  

[MysteryGuest]

I did enjoy Dean's happy reference to Team Free Will 2.0.  I miss TFW.  I don't really get why Sam was confused about why Dean seemed so happy.  Obviously, getting Cas back was a big deal for both of them.  I'm not saying he shouldn't have commented on the change in his attitude, but it shouldn't have puzzled him.  Again, just clunky writing.  

And while I'm complaining, we again were cheated out of any reunion dialogue.  I didn't need a sap fest, but how about filling Cas in on what happened after he died...like Lucifer and Mary, for starters.  I don't know why these writers are so dead set against giving us any satisfying conversation.  I just have to assume it's because they're not good at writing it.

[catrox14]

Misha live tweeting

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

For a Davy Perez episode, it was positively good for Dean. /thud

This episode was all about LeaderDean, IMO. Color me shocked that it came from Perez, but then again, twitter and tumblr have been reviling him for the lack in this regard in pretty much all of his episodes, so, like Dean, I'll just take it and move forward with this.

Holy Crow. I still can't believe it, but lots of goodness in this one for this Dean fan. First and foremost, the return of LeaderDean, in that everyone pretty much looked to him as that last word on everything and everyone. YAY! Just YAY!!, I say and I'll say it again. YAY!!!

I loved, loved, LOVED! Cas being so guarded about Jack waking a sleeping Hunter(AKA Dean Winchester). Yeah, you do not do that, the way that Jack did it. Lesson  No.1 for the Apprentice Hunter(Nephilim or not). Loved that. So much. It was like something out of a CJ Cherryh book that I read once or twice or eight times.

Dean took charge with the hunt at every turn in this one and that's what I tune in for. And he didn't even get the kill, but that was fine with me, too, because the one-off character who got it, deserved it in this one, IMO; although why he was allowed to live by the baddie was another story. And the baddie was not as bad as he should have been by a long shot. But then again, he was in luuuuurve. So there was that.

The Jack stuff seemed so predictable and soapy, but that's Dabb for you. Now he's in the wind, but TFW 2.0 will be looking for their lost compadre and i'm sure he will be brought back into the fold by the end of this story.

Still shocked at this Perez effort because not only did I not hate it-I actually liked it-and I will probably even re-watch it.

[catrox14]

Wasn't this the episode the boys all got kicked off the set for messing with Alexander?

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

So all 4 of them couldn't take out the ghoul despite having the drop on him (they were awful shots tonight); but Sam was fine going back to the bunker and leaving Dean to deal with it alone?  And apparently had no expectation of a phone call as soon as Dean was finished, since he asked how it went when Dean finally came home.  Even his question of 'how did it go?' was about as casual as it could possibly be.

Not a total fan of this episode, although there were parts that were okay.

At the end of 13.3, Dean came back and asked how Jack was. I didn't have the impression Dean called to tell him the outcome of the case. Maybe they just don't call each other on these things as much anymore?

[catrox14]

So, Jack could bust out of the bunker whenever he wanted it seems.

[Whodunnit]

I could see the local guy wanting to roll his eyes so hard when Cas introduced himself as 'Val Kilmer'.

[Omegamom]

Guys, Dean was happy! So. Damned. Happy! That made me feel so good. He got Cas back, and he got to do Western cosplay, and he got to do a shootout with a Real Live (okay, dead) famous gunslinger!

And he finally accepted Jack.

The "don't wake a Hunter" scene was funny. (@Myrelle, as soon as I read your post, I was like, "OMG, yes! Hilfy waking Pyanfar up!" I am re-reading, myself.)

So. I wanted more emotion. I always want more emotion. I may just do a cut-scene story to get the emotion I need. 

Did anyone else get the feeling that Sam was slightly unsure of Cas? When they all arrived at the motel, and Dean and Sam were off by themselves in the suite, there was something Sam did that gave that impression to me, can't remember what it was.

The "we're all afraid of what Jack can do" awkwardness was overplayed, IMO. Badly overplayed. Why would they all go fearful when they already know what he can do? It was so obviously an accident. It felt just ginned up to make Jack fearful of himself and want to leave. And out of character for both Cas and Sam, they way they responded.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, this one didn't quite work for me. It wasn't bad, exactly, but it also seemed very...paint by numbers and half baked. The case itself was fairly bland, and they didn't commit to the "Dean loves Westerns" shtick enough to make it much more than perfunctory (although I did like him discussing Tombstone with Cas, and his reaction when Cas introduced himself as Val Kilmer). Perez also seemed ot be going for something with the parallel between Dean's enthusiasm for the old West and the ghoul who loved inhabiting the body of a gunslinger, but again, it didn't really go anywhere. Plus, the "48 hours earlier" tag was completely unnecessary, and seems to have just been there to fill up some more time. 

As for Jack, that struck me as predictable and a little silly. As far as I could tell, Jack killed the guy in the midst of deliberately using his powers; it wasn't like he  couldn't control himself. So, the way to prevent that from happening again is to not use your powers until you have a better handle on them, not to decide that you're an inevitable danger to everyone around you. Like, based on this episode, how are Sam, Dean and Cas in danger from Jack sitting around the bunker doing research, moving pencils, and watching Netflix? I get Jack being devastated about what he did, but his conclusion was off the charts illogical, especially given that he had just gotten back the being who he considers his natural father and protector. 

I also want to point out that for all the flak Perez got last year for sidelining Dean in the climax of American Nightmare, in this episode, he randomly sent both Cas and Sam  back to the bunker with Jack, because apparently Jack needed two chaperones, while it was A-OK for Dean to go after the ghoul on his lonesome. In fact, Sam was pretty much a non-entity for the whole episode. So it seems that maybe Perez is less anti-Dean, than a writer who struggles with figuring out how to juggle his characters. 

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, Jack could bust out of the bunker whenever he wanted it seems.

Of course he could.  I don't see any reason why anybody not locked in the dungeon couldn't bust out any time they wanted to.  I mean as ridiculously easy as it is for anyone to stroll in, I think it would be all the easier to stroll out.

 

4 hours ago, Omegamom said:

Did anyone else get the feeling that Sam was slightly unsure of Cas? When they all arrived at the motel, and Dean and Sam were off by themselves in the suite, there was something Sam did that gave that impression to me, can't remember what it was.

I did, but then nothing else was said, so I figured it was nothing.

 

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Plus, the "48 hours earlier" tag was completely unnecessary, and seems to have just been there to fill up some more time. 

A second? Maybe 2?  I think we could have figured out that the scene with Cas was obviously earlier, but I don't see how having a '48 hours earlier' was in any way a bad thing, or there to take up time.  

[DittyDotDot]

I went into this one with pretty low expectations, but wow...that was...I really don't know what that was. You know, there are very few episodes of Supernatural I'd actually say are bad. There are some I don't care for as much as others, some I downright loathe for a variety of personal reasons, but I wouldn't call them bad, as in the quality of them are bad--just because I don't want to hang it on my wall doesn't mean it's not a quality piece of art. This one...well...not good. 

The writing was all over the place and the directing...that's four Nina Lopez-Corrado has directed  and four that fail miserably for me . I don't even think the performances were up to snuff and that's something I so very rarely have an issue with on this show. I was even disappointed in the whacky motel room--the pictures they released ahead of time were gorgeous, too bad they didn't capture that feeling for me on the show. The whole damn thing just felt off, and not in a good way.

I'm just having the hardest time processing just how bad this episode was for me even with my expectations set low...just WOW.

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm glad Cas is back, and I'm assuming it's our Cas but without any angel juice.  I enjoyed his reunion with Dean and Sam, but even that felt sort of anti-climactic.  It's probably just because I've known all along that Cas wasn't really dead.  Letting that cat out of the bag as quickly as they did certainly took some of the air out of any drama they might have been trying to get from his death last season.  I'm not sure they could have pulled off killing him and not telling people he wasn't really dead.  I think fans would have revolted.  But I just think they should have thought it out a bit better, because his death and return really haven't had much impact on me.  

I've been thinking they may have undercut Cass's death by trying to keep him off screen in the first few episodes. I get they were attempting to let us feel the loss while also trying to surprise those folks that are just casual viewers and maybe didn't think Cass would come back--and it worked for the Winchester side of things--but I think it would've given the overall storyline more depth if we had spent more time with Cass before he was sent back. I think we could've still felt Dean's--and Sam's--loss while also seeing Cass in another place. 

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think part of my issue is that we've gotten a few monster episodes lately, but the monster story is actually secondary to the forward movement of the main plot, so they're just not fleshing out the monsters in a way that's truly satisfying.  I miss that and wonder if we'll get that at all this season, considering how much else they have on their plates.  

For me, it's not so much fleshing out the monsters, but grounding them with whatever is going on with our heroes. Last week I thought the found the balance almost perfectly. This week, not so much. 

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know much about ghouls, but do they normally have the ability to borough through dirt like that so quickly?  Wasn't it a ghoul that killed Adam?  I guess I just don't know much about them.  And this episode really didn't do much to enlighten me.

That's probably because this is only the second ghoul hunt we've seen, but I believe ghouls can burrow through dirt like that--and yes it was a ghoul who killed Adam. Back in Jump the Shark, there were tunnels all over the graveyard and they seemed really quick, too. We didn't see them grab anyone from below like that before, but I think it makes sense they can...I think, anyway.

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The whole episode was obviously laying the groundwork for Jack to leave.  I wonder why he's not able to actually bring someone back from the dead?  He is part angel, and he certainly has more power than Cas does right now.  I guess they all have different skill sets.  

I'm guessing Jack has the ability to do just about anything but just doesn't know how to tap into those abilities yet. Currently he only knows how to use the ability to move objects with his mind when he gets emotional, which he discovered by accident. It could very well be that he can heal and it could very well be that the reason Cass couldn't heal was because Jack was somehow suppressing Cass's abilities. Like maybe he was subconsciously wanting to heal the guard himself and that subconscious thought made it impossible for Cass to heal him? Perhaps Jack's powers are the ability to make his "wishes" come true more than anything? 

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I really was hoping Cas would come back a little fiercer, but it doesn't appear that he has.  He still has his mopey Cas face on.  I'm ready for powerful Cas again, please.

I don't really care about how powerful Cass is, but I was hoping he'd have more of that warrior mentality he once had. I'd actually like to see Cass without powers, but be powerful none-the-less, if you know what I mean.

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, I'm not sure who wrote this one, but it really wasn't one of the best.  Lot's of scenes that left you scratching your head. 

I agree the whole thing was a bit of a mess. It seemed like they wanted to mess with form a bit with the in media res at the beginning--which this show has done exceptionally well over the years; Nightshifter and Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie come immediately to mind--but they really didn't stick the landing with this one. The show hasn't really done much high-concept or messing-with-form since Dabb took over, maybe that's because it's just not something in Dabb's wheelhouse?

8 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I agree.  It was so odd.  They took Baby so Dean had to find his own way back to the bunker ( stole a car or something) but surely on the ride home he called and filled them in.  Sam's casual how did it go was so odd.

I wasn't really engaged and paying much attention by this point, but didn't Dean drive up to the cemetery in Baby? It makes more sense to me that Sam stole a car for he, Jack and Cass to take back to the bunker while Dean kept the car with the trunk full of weapons, but since most of the episode didn't make a whole lotta sense... .

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

And while I'm complaining, we again were cheated out of any reunion dialogue.  I didn't need a sap fest, but how about filling Cas in on what happened after he died...like Lucifer and Mary, for starters.  I don't know why these writers are so dead set against giving us any satisfying conversation.  I just have to assume it's because they're not good at writing it.

You know, I was fine with the reunion--although I thought the one between Jack and Cass was kinda weird--but I thought they really missed the mark by not having a car scene of all four of them driving to the case together. Usually I feel like they spend way too much time talking about stuff I already know, but in this case I think we really needed a bit more of that in this episode and less shoot outs at the OK Corral.

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So, Jack could bust out of the bunker whenever he wanted it seems.

It's not a prison even though it contains a dungeon--although, I would doubt the dungeon would be able to hold Jack against his will--Cass, Crowley and just about everything else has been able to come and go whenever they wanted, why wouldn't Jack, who is supposedly more powerful than all of them, be able to do the same?

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I also want to point out that for all the flak Perez got last year for sidelining Dean in the climax of American Nightmare, in this episode, he randomly sent both Cas and Sam  back to the bunker with Jack, because apparently Jack needed two chaperones, while it was A-OK for Dean to go after the ghoul on his lonesome. In fact, Sam was pretty much a non-entity for the whole episode. So it seems that maybe Perez is less anti-Dean, than a writer who struggles with figuring out how to juggle his characters. 

So much of this episode just didn't hold water for me that I think it would've been better for them to have just pulled an American Nightmare with Sam, Jack and Cass on this one. No explanation would've been better than one that doesn't make any sense. At least I still have the option of finding one on my own that might make sense. ;)

[Pondlass1]

It's a lot of shallow, hollow writing we're getting lately. The story was ok, but we never really got the chance to invest in any of it. The writers don't seem  in the headspace of each character nor even aware of what has just gone on in that character's life.  And I wasn't keen on the direction.  A camera spinning around two people talking is old, and - as someone else pointed out - the western room looked awesome in promo pix, but not shown to be much of a backdrop in the actual episode.

It's an episode I'll remember only for the fact that Dean wore snakeskin cowboy boots and just don't wake him up out of a deep sleep.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

It's not a prison even though it contains a dungeon--although, I would doubt the dungeon would be able to hold Jack against his will--Cass, Crowley and just about everything else has been able to come and go whenever they wanted, why wouldn't Jack, who is supposedly more powerful than all of them, be able to do the same?

Well, I wasn't suggesting it was a prison.My point is that Sam said last episode they would put up extra warding so they could leave Jack alone without them being around which I took to mean warding that kept Jack from leaving the bunker. If so, they  had to have taken down some of the warding at least via the garage so they could all leave on the hunt.

I don't see any other reason  for Jack to have powered up  enough knock them back and then blip out unless he thought had to do it to get past the warding . Or the warding never worked for him in the first place, which he always knew but he chose to stay in the bunker of his own accord and he   being dramatic upon his exit, like slamming the door behind him which I don't think was the case.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point is that Sam said last episode they would put up extra warding so they could leave Jack alone without them being around which I took to mean warding that kept Jack from leaving the bunker.

I figured it meant warding to keep him extra hidden and to keep things out.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

being dramatic upon his exit, like slamming the door behind him which I don't think was the case.

I disagree.  I think he was just being dramatic.  Don't forget.  In one sense, he's basically a toddler.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, I wasn't suggesting it was a prison.My point is that Sam said last episode they would put up extra warding so they could leave Jack alone without them being around which I took to mean warding that kept Jack from leaving the bunker.

I assumed they were putting up extra warding to protect Jack without them there, as in making sure nothing could get in that could hurt Jack or be hurt by Jack. I think they probably just told Jack not to leave the bunker and, since he was all wrapped up in watching DVDs, they just trusted he wouldn't. 

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see any other reason  for Jack to have powered up  enough knock them back and then blip out unless he thought had to do it to get past the warding . Or the warding never worked for him in the first place, which he always knew but he chose to stay in the bunker of his own accord and he   being dramatic upon his exit, like slamming the door behind him which I don't think was the case.

I thought he was purposely knocking them out so he could make his exit without them interfering. 

I'd be surprised if they knew of any warding that would work for Jack, myself. As far as I know, there's never before been a Jack, so there really shouldn't be any known lore on him.

Edited November 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Bobcatkitten]

It was just okay. I'm a huge Dean fan and there were some good moments. But I think it was almost too much Dean? That feels blasphemous.

It made ZERO sense for Dean to stay behind alone. Sam should have stayed and it was OOC for him to leave Dean there. Cas can drive the kid back to the bunker. He's not an idiot. I also don't get what the writers got with that move. Also didn't make any sense that they were holding like three guns directly on the guy and didn't get him. They wanted the guy to escape but needed to write it better. These guys suddenly can't shoot? I liked letting the local guy kill the ghoul. And the girlfriend was a hoot.

I did like the western theme and the scene where they woke Dean up was great. I think some of the Dean lines were too much, like the one while he was crawling through the tunnel. I mean there are people literally close to death and he's cracking jokes? Makes me wonder if that was an ad lib by Jensen. I love his humor but there is a line of being too much and I think we hit it this week. Same with him talking to himself before going into the hall - very Jensen. The Huckleberry line fell flat for me too.

Overall, it was a bit too Destiel for me personally. I like Cas and all but thought the brokeback stuff was too obvious and a little distracting.

The reunions were good and I enjoyed Cas and Jack together - especially that they don't sleep and Cas was trying to explain heaven etc. Oh yeah, one little part that was awesome was them carrying their dry cleaned suits. I thought that was funny given how crazy it always is that they pull the suit out of nowhere and it's always perfectly pressed. 

[Roselle]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

  And I wasn't keen on the direction.  A camera spinning around two people talking is old, and - as someone else pointed out - the western room looked awesome in promo pix, but not shown to be much of a backdrop in the actual episode.

I agree about the direction - those single reaction shots of each of the guys as they listened to the JackAngst were painful (and not in a good way!)..I dunno... too long? too many? It felt/looked like parody.

 

7 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Also didn't make any sense that they were holding like three guns directly on the guy and didn't get him. They wanted the guy to escape but needed to write it better. These guys suddenly can't shoot?

I did like the western theme and the scene where they woke Dean up was great. I think some of the Dean lines were too much, like the one while he was crawling through the tunnel. I mean there are people literally close to death and he's cracking jokes? 

The shoot out was ridiculous. Thirteen years of hunting and the guys are supposed to be the best there are. I really miss the sense of real danger to the MOTW - like you say, the joke cracking takes that right away. All that huffing and puffing and cursing in the tunnel...I mean, wouldn't a silent approach be advisable...and the falling out of the end, following on from the coffee slurping and the snoring? JA can do slapstick brilliantly, and yes, of course there have been some fantastic comedic episodes/scenes over all these years, but it can take away from the other stuff I enjoy if not handled right. I was expecting a more emotional episode when they were all reunited and feel a little cheated without it.

But then, I can't argue with this either ....

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't a dick, nor incompetent, and had fun. I'm sure the other shoe will drop but I think he's just enjoying living with his BF, his brother and even trying to accept Jack.

I loved that Dean made Cas watch Tombstone and I loved his sincere "Welcome home" and "It's good to have you back, Cas'

So, yeah, I suppose I'm torn. :)

[Pondlass1]

This writer got some flack for ignoring Dean.  I don't know if they pay attention to social media grumbles - but leaving Dean alone to deal with the MOTW seemed kind of ... well, there you go, stop yer grumbling... Dean's got this. But it made little sense for Sam to leave too.

I'm not particularly invested in the Jack character but the actor is pretty good.  However, going on & on about killing someone is a bit annoying, especially as he probably could have healed the guy if he'd tried.  Jack's going to be an issue for writers.  They don't seem to know what to do with him now that Dabb's dumped him in their laps.  I guess things will come to a head once Luci bursts through the rift with Mary in tow.

But I have to admit I'm liking this season more than last season's BMOL SL.

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

Cas can drive the kid back to the bunker. He's not an idiot.

I beg to differ. I could give oodles of examples of Cas being an idiot.

 

24 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

I like Cas and all but thought the brokeback stuff was too obvious and a little distracting.

It couldn't have been that obvious, because I (thankfully) didn't pickup any Destiel.  I also didn't see Brokeback Mountain so maybe that makes the difference.

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, Roselle said:

JA can do slapstick brilliantly,

He's overdoing it now I'm afraid.  

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It couldn't have been that obvious, because I (thankfully) didn't pickup any Destiel.  I also didn't see Brokeback Mountain so maybe that makes the difference.

I did see Brokeback Mountain and I didn't see Destiel either. Maybe the difference is that I never see it, though?

Edited November 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Bobcatkitten]

To clarify, I don't see Destiel. I see best friends. But I am starting to pick up on lines/glances etc that can be read both ways if that's what you want to do. The sleeping bear scene and them watching Tombstone together. Perhaps made worse by the tweeting I saw pushing that. 

 

Sadly agree JA is doing too much slapsticky stuff now. They just need to back off a tad. 

[catrox14]

I can't believe I'm going to defend a Davy Perez written episode lol.

IMO, the 48 hours earlier was an in media res opening, meant it make us worried for Dean hunting in a graveyard. Whether it was an effective use of the gimmick is debatable.

Perez wrote Stuck in the middle and used that technique so I think he chose it again here. It didn't need to be that way but I think it was intended to make us wonder why Dean was in a graveyard hunting with someone not named Sam. Was he there because something happened to Sam and he was trying to find Sam with this other guy? Was he going to meet his end as Billie said in Advanced Thantology, dying in a graveyard hunting a ghoul?

I think this season is foreshadowing that Dean will die by the end of the series but he has to avoid his deaths to accomplish whatever work Billie says they have to do. Maybe I'm a dumb bunny viewer but for me  that is why I don't think Dean is off the hook for his death.

Dean's happiness won't last IMO and I think he knows it. He wanted to throw off the depression for a day or so. Revel in the hope that he sees with Cas.

I thought they were going for bit of Mystery Spot with it being funny until it's sad. The difference is that for me I'm not invested enough in Jack to care but I do care what it means for the boys.

The spinny camera thing is not my fave but it seems like the show does that with Perez scripts, Dick Speight did it when he directed. I don't remember Nina doing that with another ep other than the Hitler ep.

I think something is up with Cas for sure, I just don't know what.

I thought they made good use of Sam in that he was working with Jack and being skeptical Sam about Cas.  I was pleased that Sam didn't actually mock Dean but went with it despite his own personal distaste.

[Aeryn13]

Since I hated every episode from this writer last year - and only the first one had the nonsensical Dean-disappearing act, the others had multiple other offenses - I expected much worse than this episode. 

The humor wasn`t perfect but I figured it was gonna be goofy humiliation porn all over. Instead I found it to be largely inoffensive. The griping in the tunnel didn`t bug me either, that would strike me as a normal reaction. 

Reunion with Cas was pretty understated but I doubt they can have really emotional reunions on this show anymore what with so many deaths and resurrections. 

Yes, the thing with Jack was pretty paint-by-the-numbers-angst to write him out of the show for a bit but this show has done much worse. Maybe it also wasn`t the best idea to give him the "yay, I believe in you as the new saviour" speeches. Granted, I know what it was intended to do but way to put the pressure on. 

I`m debating if we got another technical Deansel in distress because he seemed in charge of the situation, having handed the gun to the Sheriff. Which, I was okay with the guest star getting the kill here. Thankfully we already got a much better Western-themed episode where Dean got to have a quick-draw moment. Yup, I love Westerns, too. Grew up watching them with my mom and grandfather.

Now what was truly bad was the shoot-out. Even I can hit a target from this distance. Come on. This was amateurish-ly done. Which I blame fully on the director. 

Sending Sam and Cas back with Jack to the bunker, well, I can see the case for it. The other option would have been IMO only sending Sam with him because Cas just recently came back and I would ease him into it with stuff like that. Sam and Cas are the two people Jack probably had the most positive interaction with and the way he felt, it wasn`t a bad idea to have both tending to him. At least it WAS an explanation and you could see them on the ride back. Still made a lot more sense to me than the WTF-ness in American Nightmare. Screentime wasn`t the issue there, quality of material was.

So, was this a good episode? Nope. But it was one that didn`t make me wanna tar and feather the writer so I count it as a win.   

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This writer got some flack for ignoring Dean.  I don't know if they pay attention to social media grumbles - but leaving Dean alone to deal with the MOTW seemed kind of ... well, there you go, stop yer grumbling... Dean's got this. But it made little sense for Sam to leave too.

I'm not particularly invested in the Jack character but the actor is pretty good.  However, going on & on about killing someone is a bit annoying, especially as he probably could have healed the guy if he'd tried.  Jack's going to be an issue for writers.  They don't seem to know what to do with him now that Dabb's dumped him in their laps.  I guess things will come to a head once Luci bursts through the rift with Mary in tow.

But I have to admit I'm liking this season more than last season's BMOL SL.

I legitimately think Jack was acting as he thinks he's supposed to act. I think he told the Shifterpist the truth that he doesn't really feel anything. I noticed when Jack got shot he smiled before powering up and being able to take out the bad guy. I think Jack is trying to ACT like he thinks he supposed to act. That being upset about the guard's family is what he's supposed to do but he doesnt. Maybe like  Dexter Morgan  to an extent. That he's trying to control the lurking monster by acting "good" even if he doesn't really feel it.

[Aeryn13]

One thing that was unintentially hilarious?  Jack used his blast-o powers and predictablly the guard hit his head fatally on a heavy object. In the final scene Jack tearfully proclaims he needs to go lest he will hurt them in the future, then proceeds to use his blast-o power and everyone goes smashing into heavy objects. Now Castiel would be safe but dude, that is EXACTLY how you killed that guard. Both Dean and Sam or either one could have fatally hit their head on something in that scene. 

[catrox14]

 I can see the space for Destiel and non Destiel readings of the Dean/Cas moments. I have my subtext Destiel and I am fine with it. More than.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

One thing that was unintentially hilarious?  Jack used his blast-o powers and predictablly the guard hit his head fatally on a heavy object. In the final scene Jack tearfully proclaims he needs to go lest he will hurt them in the future, then proceeds to use his blast-o power and everyone goes smashing into heavy objects. Now Castiel would be safe but dude, that is EXACTLY how you killed that guard. Both Dean and Sam or either one could have fatally hit their head on something in that scene. 

Maybe his God like powers allow him to know that Sam and Dean possess Starring character invincibility LOL

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The spinny camera thing is not my fave but it seems like the show does that with Perez scripts, Dick Speight did it when he directed. I don't remember Nina doing that with another ep other than the Hitler ep.

Heh, I was listening to a commentary a while back--can't remember which show right now, though, but not Supernatural--and someone was talking about the spinny camera thing. Apparently there was a network exec who called the showrunner and expressed his dismay over some spinny camera moves--apparently, he felt like every new director has to try the spinny camera thing but he thought it was pretty cheesy and suggested they discourage directors from doing that sort of thing.

Which is even funnier to me now that we're talking about it because a lot of this episode just seemed very "armature" to me.  As though it was made by a bunch of first year film students playing around with their gear more than telling a coherent story. It wasn't offensive or anything like that, just lacking the quality this show usually showcases.

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

One thing that was unintentially hilarious?  Jack used his blast-o powers and predictablly the guard hit his head fatally on a heavy object. In the final scene Jack tearfully proclaims he needs to go lest he will hurt them in the future, then proceeds to use his blast-o power and everyone goes smashing into heavy objects. Now Castiel would be safe but dude, that is EXACTLY how you killed that guard. Both Dean and Sam or either one could have fatally hit their head on something in that scene. 

OMG, I laughed at that myself. I mean, it's really the same kind of logic the Brits had last season with the idea you have to kill one to be one, but if you kill one, you're dead... . ;)

[catrox14]

ETA: I didn't think Dean mumbling to himself whilst going through the tunnels was out of line at all. It was pretty much a lift from Jump the Shark when he was similarly grumbling about crawling through the tunnels. I cheered at that scene. I could watch Dean /Jensen skulk til the cows come home.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

OMG, I laughed at that myself. I mean, it's really the same kind of logic the Brits had last season with the idea you have to kill one to be one, but if you kill one, you're dead... . ;)

Actually, I decided that the rule where you were killed if you killed a BMOL only applied to non-BMOLs.  After all, they were encouraged to kill each other on a regular basis.

[Commando Cody]

If Dean could barely fit through the tunnels, I can't figure out how the law officer fit through the tunnels. 

I am assuming Jack can heal, he just doesn't know it. I thought maybe Castiel would at least get him to make an attempt. 

I loved Dean geeking out over the cowboy stuff. 

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: I didn't think Dean mumbling to himself whilst going through the tunnels was out of line at all. It was pretty much a lift from Jump the Shark when he was similarly grumbling about crawling through the tunnels. I cheered at that scene. I could watch Dean /Jensen skulk til the cows come home.

I too thought it was a callback to Jump the Shark--as was the overhead truck shot of the deputy getting taken--and I can't say I really have an issue with it, per se, but I do think some of it would've been better served being trimmed and saved for the gag reel. It was almost a little too goofy for me and felt more like Jensen screwing around than Dean being a smartass. As did the hesitation bit before he jumped down the hole. Again, not offensive, just maybe needed another take or too to nail down the timing and get the tone right if they were going to keep it.

BTW, I love Jump the Shark, but I don't remember Dean grumbling while he was climbing through the tunnels in the episode proper, but I do remember there is an outtake on the gag reel of it. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

55 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

It made ZERO sense for Dean to stay behind alone. Sam should have stayed and it was OOC for him to leave Dean there. Cas can drive the kid back to the bunker. He's not an idiot. I also don't get what the writers got with that move. Also didn't make any sense that they were holding like three guns directly on the guy and didn't get him. They wanted the guy to escape but needed to write it better. These guys suddenly can't shoot?

Well, all I can think of is that Jack had to go back to the bunker.  Cas had to go with him, mostly because he needed to spend time with Jack (and Jack needed to be with him).  Sam had to go with them because he didn't quite trust Cas was really, well, Cas, and so wanted to keep an eye on both of them (and also to "procure" a car and drive them there.)  And they all knew that Dean could kill a single ghoul by himself.  Most of the time, unless the story requires him not to.  

As to having a shootout on the main street and *not one of them* getting a headshot?  Sheesh.  They obviously need more time in the bunker shooting range.

And yes, it's dangerous to wake a sleeping hunter; but to be able to walk right up to him and actually poke him (twice, I think?) *before* he wakes with gun in hand?  And again they've had him snoring and so deeply asleep that people can just walk in the room with him (Cas talking loudly, IIRC, telling him not to touch...) and he didn't wake until Jack actually poked him?  His reflexes must be slowing.  

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I legitimately think Jack was acting as he thinks he's supposed to act. I think he told the Shifterpist the truth that he doesn't really feel anything. I noticed when Jack got shot he smiled before powering up and being able to take out the bad guy. I think Jack is trying to ACT like he thinks he supposed to act. That being upset about the guard's family is what he's supposed to do but he doesnt. 

I didn't see that, or at least, not all of it.  I thought Jack was proud that he was hunting with the others and stepped out because he wanted to take the lead instead of hiding, because that was what a hunter would do.  IMO he looked shocked when he was shot, then smiled when he realized it didn't hurt/didn't do any damage.  And he was using his powers to stop the badguy, thinking that was his contribution/what he could do that others couldn't--knock the guy out.  He didn't consider other potential consequences, like injuring the guard.  But IA it's likely that he doesn't really understand how he fits in and so is just trying to act like everyone expects him to.  He did seem legitimately upset at the guard's death, though, even though his decision to leave because of it was pretty forced--and, as @Aeryn13 said above, using his powers to get away seems pretty stupid if he was worried about hurting others.  If he could blink out when they were down, couldn't he just blink out *without* knocking them back first?  

 

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA: I didn't think Dean mumbling to himself whilst going through the tunnels was out of line at all. It was pretty much a lift from Jump the Shark when he was similarly grumbling about crawling through the tunnels. I cheered at that scene. I could watch Dean /Jensen skulk til the cows come home.

I didn't have a problem with him mumbling to himself--what annoyed me was his clumsiness both falling in and out of the tunnels.  In Jump the Shark, there was no reason to think the ghoul was around, especially after he was trapped and was trying to find his way out.  Here, I'd think he should expect the badguy to be waiting for him (having used the policeman as bait to get to the hunter, who would be the more dangerous one) and so would be a little more discreet.  After all, the ghoul *made* those tunnels and should know them inside and out and probably would know a good place for an ambush.  But that would give too much credit to a cardboard villain.  :)  

 

I did love "smart Dean" showing up (finally!)  He's the one that pointed out that the girl couldn't be the ghoul, and came up with the plan (I assume) to pass  his shotgun to the policeman when the ghoul snuck in behind him.  

One thing that annoyed me (not to the point of anger, just mild annoyance) is the difference between the way the writers  have Sam and Dean treat each other's interests...that is, when Sam has something he relates to (good or bad), like his fear of clowns, his interest in a particular female (Amelia excepted)  or his fascination with serial killers, Dean laughs and teases him.  (I know some think teasing is cruel, but IMO it depends on the way it's intended/said.  Dean to me has always seemed more fond/amused than deliberately intending to hurt.)  When Dean pursues/geeks out about something (like his Wild West or Dr. Sexy fanboying, his pride in his home-made EMF meter, or even his girl-chasing) Sam rolls his eyes and disparages it.  But it's certainly been consistent throughout the series, so I guess that's how the writers see the boys.   The only time I remember Sam smiling fondly at one of Dean's enthusiasms was his joy at the "big pretzel" in Monster Movie, and I assumed that was because Sam was still so happy that Dean was back that he could forgive him his "annoying" habits.  

Again, JMO, and YMMV.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I love Jump the Shark, but I don't remember Dean grumbling while he was climbing through the tunnels in the episode proper, but I do remember there is an outtake on the gag reel of it.

Dean grumbled to himself. He dropped his head and shook it, which was his silent way of saying to himself "What the fuck am I doing here".  When he got to the casket and found the dead guy he called him "Sloppy Joe".  So to me with Dean making a pop culture ref to Die Hard, it fit right in with Dean's MO if not precisely exactly, 100% the same as what happened in Jump the Shark. JMHO