S03.E05: I Never Want To See Josh Again

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, Glory said:

I thought Naomi was doing the only thing she could think to do to help her daughter. What else is there to do really? She perhaps could have called 911 and had Rebecca involuntarily committed but how long does that last? I don't think it's for more than a day or so. 

A psych hold is 72 hours if they have reason to believe that the person is a danger to themsleves or others. The fact that Naomi found that website on Rebecca’s laptop is not really enough to justify that. Her overdose at the end of the episode is though. 

[Leia1979]

This episode was hard to watch because it was so real. I'm glad we had the wacky trio back in West Covina making poor Cornelia's life hell to add some levity.

I took everything Naomi did in this episode as an attempt to help. At the start, every time she bossily did things for Rebecca, I could see she was waiting for her to snap back and argue. She progressed from her usual confrontational self trying to get Rebecca to snap out of it to supportive and caring (and drugging--which I personally didn't see coming but also understood why). Both Rebecca's depression and Naomi's desperation to help somehow were really raw and palpable. 

I'm glad Rebecca chose to ask for help. Hopefully now she's willing to get the help she needs, and from my practical perspective, even though this is fiction, that flight attendant would have paramedics lined up and waiting versus just assuming Rebecca's sleeping. (I'm assuming we're going to have Rebecca in LA next episode, not divert to Utah or some place on the way.)

[possibilities]

I think Naomi acting all lovey with Rebecca had a big effect on Rebecca's mood, whether or not the drugs were helping. We've seen that Rebecca reacts very strongly to attention from other people, and her emotions are very volatile. She is chronically off balance, but Naomi basically fulfilling Rebecca's ultimate fantasy of what it would be like to have her mother love her, is a powerful drug for Rebecca in itself, and I can easily imagine her enjoying that and reacting very strongly to it, at least short term-- and it had been less than a full day, so it's not like it had been working for a week, which is longer than Rebecca manages to stay calm usually.

[marketdoctor]

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Both Rebecca's depression and Naomi's desperation to help somehow were really raw and palpable. 

Rachel Bloom played depression so well I was actually worried for her.  (Worried enough to point out that if you text "help" to 741741, someone will try to reach out to you--at least in the US.  And that people aren't always good at spotting one cry for help, so you might need to make several efforts, but it's worth it.)

There were a few things I really loved about Cordelia:

1.  That she went to Harvard and Yale, but never brings it up unless she's asked.  I know one RL person like that, in part because they got the memo that it's more awesome that way.

2.  That her long-term goal is to open a custom yo-yo store (I hope that comes up again, though law school is an interesting path.)

3.  Her song, almost a callback to week, about "this isn't really about me."

4.  That she was annoyed, but tried to be understanding, about crazy/annoying co workers.

 

The flight attendant was also kind of awesome ("We have a lovely merlot that's...the only one we have.")  And I'm glad they didn't go to the suicide attempt as a song.  Sometimes you don't know how much difference you make.

[DrBriCa]

19 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I am wondering though at anti-anxiety meds having such a positive effect on Rebecca's depression. I know, and have personally experienced, the two being intertwined, but I'd think that you'd want to use an anti-depressant—something with a calming effect doesn't seem like it would perk a person up when their depression is at the flat affect suicidal ideation stage. (In my own case anxiety meds proved worthless, but when I got switched to a working anti-depressant the anxiety improved with my general mood.)

In this case, an anxiolytic (anti-anxiety med) would have faster results at helping Rebecca than an antidepressant, which typically take a couple weeks to really have an effect. A Prozac smoothie would not immediately get Rebecca curling up on the couch with her mother, but a benzodiazepine smoothie might. Anxiolytics are not a good treatment for depression, but they can help ease the severity of some of the symptoms in the short term. Rebecca was spending those first couple days reliving her rant at her friends and Josh's final fight with her. The anxiolytic would likely calm those perseverative, repetitive thoughts enough that she was more receptive to noticing Naomi's attempts at providing support. (Although yes, there could've been a chance that the medication would've made Rebecca even more sedated and even less motivated to leave bed).

[DrBriCa]

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

A psych hold is 72 hours if they have reason to believe that the person is a danger to themsleves or others. The fact that Naomi found that website on Rebecca’s laptop is not really enough to justify that. Her overdose at the end of the episode is though. 

Actually, the laws vary from state to state. California's involuntary psychiatric hold is for 72 hours, which is in section 5150 of the Welfare and Institutions code (hence the term "5150" in various tv shows and movies). There are means for extending the hold past 72 hours if clinically indicated, though a court representative has to determine if there's probable cause for the extensions within 2-3 business days of each continuation. New York has a different method, wherein I believe two physicians have to agree that the person is a danger to self/others and can commit to a hospital for a significantly longer period of time, though the hold has to be legally reviewed within 10 days if/when the patient appeals the hold.

For Los Angeles County specifically (since Hollywood obviously is within the county), a hold can be written by county-trained medical professionals as well as by police officers, as the latter are usually the first to respond to a 911 call. From experience, they will definitely write a hold if someone has been presenting as depressed recently and has been actively researching suicide methods. Add to that if the mother pinpoints a recent stressful event (such as being left at the altar earlier that month), and there's absolutely enough reasonable doubt that a police officer on scene would write a hold or at least transfer the person to an ER for a psychiatric assessment. Given Rebecca's extreme funk pre-smoothie (as well as any flipping out she most likely would've done if removed from the house), an ER psychiatrist would also likely write a hold and transfer to a psychiatric unit for 72-hour observation.

On the other hand, had Paula and the gang succeeded in dragging Rebecca to an ER for a psych eval at the beginning of the "Swim-chan" episode, there likely would not have been enough cause to admit her involuntarily, since up to that point her actions (retreating to a hotel after the wedding, sending poop cupcakes that were returned, yelling at Josh in church, trying to defame him in a blog article) were not clearly a direct danger to herself or to Josh's life (though obviously were a cry for some mental help). An ER doctor at that time would have recommended that she see her own psychiatrist again very soon. 

 

(Apologies for the double post. Still learning how to quote posts from two separate pages.)

Edited November 12, 2017 by DrBriCa

[aradia22]

Yeah... I don't like the new opening. It's kind of low energy.

Mean Mrs. Hernandez doesn't work. Giving George more to do was a good choice. I'd rather she stopped talking again.

Millennial Maya doesn't work well either. 

I love the show's use of reprises.

I am fascinated by the fairy game. It reminds me of all the things that were marketed to me in that age 1-10 bracket. Lisa Frank unicorns, rainbows, colored glass gems, princesses. For some reason they were dressed as fairies princesses to play the game which seems like a lot of forethought in sizing, etc. for what seems essentially like Candyland with a bunch of weird accessories.

The idea of doing 60's girl group number was cute but oh, boy what was the budget for that video? Green screen! Great song though.

Taco casserole doesn't seem on brand for Audra Levine.

The girl giving them a tour in Palm Springs is an actress regularly featured on Cracked. Made me happy to see her featured.

Honestly, this felt like a bit of a filler episode. I mean, Rebecca had a solid plotline but it felt like it was being relegated to a minor plot whereas nothing that important was going on with Cornelia or Paula. 

Well, that went dark. The only reason Rebecca was feeling better about hanging out with her mom is because she was on some kind of anti-anxiety medication? Whoa.

OK, I did laugh when Cornelia got her song. Would you call that a bossa nova? That soft sax and vaguely Brazilian vibe and the bartender in the back? Loved it. I'm glad she finally had enough and decided to file several HR complaints, collect a settlement, and open her custom yo-yo business.

Side note: Nathaniel is so smooth and hairless. It just struck me when he was talking to Paula by the pool.

I don't know how I feel about the ending yet. I think Rachel did a solid job. I appreciate that it wasn't melodramatic or romanticized. And yet it also felt a bit unemotional (at least for me). I did like the button with Help/Hope and the fact that she was able to make that final decision to fight/reach out.

[dubbel zout]

I liked Millennial Maya when she didn’t have so much to do. A little of her goes a very long way for me.

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, marketdoctor said:

The flight attendant was also kind of awesome

I liked her performance -- the role is so minimal, yet pivotal, that it would have been easy to overdo, and she kept it simple and properly unintrusive. I discover that the actress, Elisabeth Kiernan Averick, is on the writing staff for the show (to which she was promoted from Writers' Assistant status in Season 1, after writing the episode "That Text Was Not Meant for Josh!"). So, nice display of multiple gifts there.

[Eeksquire]

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I liked Millennial Maya when she didn’t have so much to do. A little of her goes a very long way for me.

I liked Maya more when she was an actual real character instead of a series of annoying Milennial stereotypes.  The dance she did with Daryl to get into the girl party at Rebecca's was BRILLIANT.

I am still processing this episode.  The ending was completely earned and yet I didn't really think they'd go there.  It gets ever more painful that I have to watch this show on an old school network schedule instead of being able to binge it, Netflix-style.

[txhorns79]

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Mean Mrs. Hernandez doesn't work.

I didn't mind last season when Mrs. Hernandez called Rebecca out on her crap.  It was nice to hear someone do that, because Rebecca needed it.  It does seem like they are going a little overboard in her attitude this season.   

Quote

I took everything Naomi did in this episode as an attempt to help. At the start, every time she bossily did things for Rebecca, I could see she was waiting for her to snap back and argue. She progressed from her usual confrontational self trying to get Rebecca to snap out of it to supportive and caring (and drugging--which I personally didn't see coming but also understood why). Both Rebecca's depression and Naomi's desperation to help somehow were really raw and palpable. 

I really appreciate the show, showing that for all the clever songs and quirk, Rebecca's actions have been deeply destructive to those around her, as well as herself.  I also like that we see actual nuance with Noami.  She isn't a "heinous bitch."  She clearly loves and is very worried about her daughter.  And I suppose if you look at Rebecca's behavior over the past two seasons from Naomi's perspective, from quitting her high profile job to move cross country to a nothing city to work at a small law firm, followed by an aborted wedding and assorted unstable behavior, I can imagine why she tries so hard to control Rebecca.            

Edited November 13, 2017 by txhorns79

[DianeDobbler]

Audra noting Rebecca's circumstances and saying "It must make you want to DIE." is worth viewing again for Bloom's wince. I figure the taco casserole was just one of the things both women grew up with and Audra was bringing it over with an implicit snark.

The anxiety medicine said "dolsosprine" or very close to that, an apparently nonexistent med? 

The AV club reviewed this episode, saying it was wonderful but flawed. The Rebecca stuff was so powerful I was waiting to see what about it was flawed, but I totally forgot about the B storylines. The actress playing Cornelia was wonderful, but I agree with the AV club that we got it in one, and the repetition of the theme had diminishing returns.

Just rewatching it, I think the flight attendant was a grace note. I wonder what would have happened to Rebecca if that attendant hadn't shown such kindness to her - her demeanor more than anything else. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[tennisgurl]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I liked her performance -- the role is so minimal, yet pivotal, that it would have been easy to overdo, and she kept it simple

I liked her a lot too, its cool that shes one of the shows writers. It was a really small role, but she just projected so much warmth and understanding in just her few scenes. 

Wow, that was a hard watch. In a good way, because the Rebecca story was absolutely fascinating, but also very difficult. Rebecca is a mess of a person and its hard to get behind her destructive actions a lot of the time, but I do feel terribly sorry for her. I do think she is a basically good person, but she is so depressed and anxious and obsessive, that she is quick to go off the rails. I also found it hard to blame Naomi for what she did this episode. yes, drugging someone without her consent is bad, but she was panicking, and was trying to really connect with her daughter in ways she apparently never has before. Naomi has made a LOT of parenting mistakes, but I do think she means well and truly loves Rebecca. 

When they started the 60s style song, I thought it sounded like Good Morning Baltimore from Hairspray. I also would love to have that game Paula and her family was playing. Fairy princess bitches! It was nice seeing her family bonding a bit, even if she still got dragged into office drama. I actually wished they had stayed with Paula as the comic relief B Plot, because the office gang was pretty irritating this week. I normally enjoy office shenanigans, but they were WAY over the top this week. 

I guess they needed it though, because that last scene was just devastating. This show goes there. 

Edited November 13, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Snarklepuss]

12 hours ago, marketdoctor said:

There were a few things I really loved about Cordelia:

1.  That she went to Harvard and Yale, but never brings it up unless she's asked.  I know one RL person like that, in part because they got the memo that it's more awesome that way.

2.  That her long-term goal is to open a custom yo-yo store (I hope that comes up again, though law school is an interesting path.)

3.  Her song, almost a callback to week, about "this isn't really about me."

4.  That she was annoyed, but tried to be understanding, about crazy/annoying co workers.

I've been thinking that Cornelia was deliberately written as the "anti-Rebecca" in order to bring out the craziness of the rest of the group at the firm.  She kept her business/pleasure line clearly defined, which was in strong contrast to Rebecca and the rest of the brood at the firm.  The one quirk about opening a yo yo store was to provide a humorous irony and raise an eyebrow that maybe underneath the sane, mature exterior there's a little crazy lurking there too.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

11 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Side note: Nathaniel is so smooth and hairless. It just struck me when he was talking to Paula by the pool.

Do you think he's naturally smooth like Hector or that he depilates?

Edited November 13, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[DianeDobbler]

I loved Cornelia's gingerly pat on Nathaniel's arm when he was crying.  I read the show runner discussion about the Ronnettes, how simple the choreography was for that group. Crazy Ex Girlfriend changed things a bit by having all three do the same choreography, because the lead girl in the Ronnettes did her own thing, while her two back-up singers did something basic and coordinated. The Ronnettes video I saw (a live appearance) was even more bare bones than what we saw on the show. Don't think green screen was budget. The show wanted that effect we saw at the end, where the three singers are in the living room in black and white looking at Naomi and Rebecca on the couch. Anyway, even in the Ronnettes live (or maybe "live studio") appearance I saw, the only thing to see was the singers. Everything else was pretty bare. As good as Cornelia was, I agree the office was irritating. Everybody was reduced to one note, and IMO it didn't come off and felt very forced.

One review mentioned how the episode's title, "I never want to see Josh again" hits harder after viewing the episode.

Edited November 13, 2017 by DianeDobbler

[aradia22]

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Do you think he's naturally smooth like Hector or that he depilates?

Tough call. For now I'll vote naturally smooth. Which is creepier to me because it implies that same pre-pubescence that makes it creepy for men to want women completely hairless below the eyebrows. I could definitely buy him as one of those 30-something actors playing a college student. 

Everyone sees different things but to me I got some of the cheapness with the faux-Ronettes that other people did with the Hotline Bling part of the "Go to the Zoo" video. And I did think the direction was a little lacking in this episode and some of the emotional beats could have been stronger with a better guiding hand behind the camera and at the editing bay. 

[SeanC]

Rewatching "Maybe She's Not...", the white backup singer looks so much like Jennifer Lawrence in some shots that it's kind of distracting.

[morakot]

21 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Side note: Nathaniel is so smooth and hairless. It just struck me when he was talking to Paula by the pool.

As the first time I ever saw Scott Michael Foster was in his underwear and a cowboy hat in Greek, I had to call up the many scenes in that series when he was naked/half naked... As I remember, he was at, or near, the smoothness that Nathaniel shows. That doesn't mean he depilates or shaves before a scene, just that it's been pretty consistent.

[DianeDobbler]

The Zoo song was actually shot on location in an arboretum, and I guess the animal shots were inserts (the zoo thought a night shoot would disturb the animals).  They did use green screen in The Zoo as well, with the bits that were supposed to take place in a club.

I think the location and theme - and number of extras - will determine how cheap something looks. Josh's solo - "Head in the clouds" must have been pretty budget - an empty church was all they needed - but it was a great looking interior so it didn't come off cheap.  I definitely didn't think "Maybe She's Not" came off cheap, because the production values were so close to what that era really did, and because the whole point was to have Rebecca move from black and white to color.

Maybe there's something about green screen that just looks cheap, even if it isn't any cheaper than a shoot not using green screen. "Ugly Betty" started using green screen for most exteriors after a point, and it really got to be distracting.

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

And I did think the direction was a little lacking in this episode and some of the emotional beats could have been stronger with a better guiding hand behind the camera and at the editing bay. 

Now that you mention it, I agree. I feel that all of the direction went to Rebecca's arc. Donna Lynn Champlin and the guy who plays her husband, Scott (Steve Monroe) are such pros, they're director proof. In fact I've read Steve Monroe is also a stand-up and a psychotherapist! But the gang at the office really needed some help - that material wasn't strong enough to stand alone. It kind of felt that they ground it out.

[Trishelle]

Was anyone else surprised not to see Heather or Valencia at all this episode?  Heather in particular is way more affected by Rebecca's leaving than Maya or Jim, so I wasn't expecting that they would give the secondary office characters so much screen time in the immediate aftermath.  Maybe they just wanted the non-Rebecca plot to be light and fun since the Rebecca one was so dark?  

[DianeDobbler]

I wasn't surprised - neither Heather nor Valencia really have an independent story right now, nor does Josh. Paula usually has one.

Very happy to see from screen caps that Valencia has her own B storyline next week. She looks gorgeous.

[LisaM]

I have been riveted to the last two episodes in a way that I haven't been since the beginning of the first season. These were both terrific. 

[shouldbedancing]

OMG in a world full of trigger warnings, I'm surprised there wasn't one. I was holding my breath through much of the episode. And shouting at the screen. Bold moves.... 

[STOPSHOUTING]

On 11/12/2017 at 4:46 PM, aradia22 said:

Millennial Maya doesn't work well either. 

I loathe this character. She's pointless, annoying and NOT A LAWYER SO WHY IS SHE THERE EVERY DAY. The entire office is completely superfluous at this point. They no longer have actual cases, other than vague mentions as plot contrivances, like this timeshare visit to get everyone in the pool, and not even the smallest, least serious place on earth would stay in business with this band of feckless, do-nothing weirdos at the helm. Just way, WAY OTT at this point.

This episode had some nice comedic moments which, given its seriousness, is a feat. I liked Paula's response to Valencia saying her son is her "weed guy" was "Oh, he started a business!" (that was this ep, right? I watched several, so if it was the previous, apologies) and her kids playing a game with her was great, too.

Little details like Rebecca walking out with nothing, yet able to get on a plane are frustrating, but the explanation of how depression feels and the help-hope button were nice, though I'm pretty sure that in this post-9/11 world, the flight attendant would have already notified the captain about Rebecca's earlier comments and behavior, which could have been interpreted as threatening, rather than smiling her and offering her wine.

Edited February 18, 2018 by STOPSHOUTING