S04.E05: I Love Her

[koganei]

well, i always wonder why bonnie is sticking to annab**** even though she was so nasty to her. it is true. bonnie loves annalise more than a boss.

anyway, the actress playing bonnie were great in her scenes. 

[rur]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

 and also that Bonnie probably betrayed her in some way, possibly with Sam. But I definitely think we need to know, and not just wonder. 

Back in Season 1, didn't we see Bonnie acknowledging that she'd had an affair with Sam?

[darkestboy]

Damn those flashbacks. Annalise and Bonnie's relationship has always been messy but those flashbacks really showed a lot on it, didn't they?

Great acting from both Viola and Liza throughout the episode though. I also liked that Isaac quickly realised who Bonnie was as well.

Did Asher kill someone again? I hope not but at least we know he's getting something interesting to do soon.

Nice that Connor and Annalise are working together, I dig it. Also nice he didn't cop off with another guy, so here's hoping Oliver doesn't do the same with Simon too.

I feel bad for Michaela because she's got a potentially great thing going with having Tegan as a mentor and Laurel is putting paid to that with her revenge plan.

I really don't like the Laurel/Frank retcon but neither is it a deal breaker for me, other than that, really loved this one, 9/10

[Neurochick]

I see Bonnie and Annalise this way.  Annalise has treated Bonnie poorly, but if Annalise really didn't care about Bonnie, she never would have asked Sam to help her.  She would have gotten her promotion and said, "I got mine, fuck all of you."  Maybe Annalise did it out of guilt, but at least she did it.   Not many in her shoes would have lifted a finger to help someone like Bonnie.

[Milaxx]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I see Bonnie and Annalise this way.  Annalise has treated Bonnie poorly, but if Annalise really didn't care about Bonnie, she never would have asked Sam to help her.  She would have gotten her promotion and said, "I got mine, fuck all of you."  Maybe Annalise did it out of guilt, but at least she did it.   Not many in her shoes would have lifted a finger to help someone like Bonnie.

ITA (except the eff you part). Annalise cares but she's a dysfunctional person who often lashes out at those she cares for. The mixed messages she got in childhood between her father's abandonment & her mother taking action but never acknowledging she knew or letting her know she was aware of the situation have messed her up. She both yearns for love and pushes it away over and over again. Love Eve, run away. To Sam of all people. Deep down she wants to do good, but she's also smart & ambitious. We see it with the Mahooney trial, we see it with Bonnie. Look at how she gave Micheala & Connor the tough love they need. How she pushed Nate away last season, ironically on the heels of Eve's return, the person who may be her one true love. 

Annalise is the walking definition of "hurt people hurt others."  I believe her when she said she helped Bonnie because "she saw her."  I believe she wanted to do good both for those people in jail & her career.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

I do wonder what happened between the time when Anna quit her job and supported Bonnie as a mentor, and the toxic dynamic they've had ever since we met them in season 1. All I can think of so far is that Anna went deeper into her alcoholism, and became more and more bitter and angry and crazy after her miscarriage and what happened with Christophe/Wes/his mom, and also that Bonnie probably betrayed her in some way, possibly with Sam. But I definitely think we need to know, and not just wonder. Annalise being sober has seemed to really change her. She's hit rock bottom, but she's also been seeming to truly be trying to do right and see clearly. Her reaction to Connor was another thing that was a departure from how she used to be. She was always "tough love" before, except with Wes, and that scene when he came to her this episode she listened, acknowledged him, was gentle, showed compassion, and helped him with constructive engagement. It's way different than what she used to do. Losing everything + sobriety and therapy might actually be doing her some good. The way she was with Bonnie in the parking garage was similar to how she was in the flashback when she told her she'd quit her job -- not coddling, but genuine and honest and not manipulative.

I think Annalise has been a functional alcoholic for a long time. AK may have opened her own grin since in season 1 she runs her firm out of the home. I between Bonnie went to law school, possibly on AK's dime, and Sam became her therapist. 

I agree since she's sober she's trying to work the steps and make amends. So she used a more toned down approach to both Bonnie & Connor. Sadly the way she treated them is what she should have done the night of the dinner. However Annalise herself is too dysfunctional to do things exactly right.

[Keepitmoving]

On October 27, 2017 at 0:40 AM, Jodie Landon said:

I read way too much into that walk. I thought it was an acting choice. I thought that they were trying to show that even with all her confidence Michaela is still just playing dress up. She wants to be Tegan (and even still, Annalise), but she just isn't at boss bitch level yet. 

 

I don't know what was going on except that the shoe wasn't really her size. Mickey is such a sucker upper she'd take them and wear them any way. Michaela's never had trouble walking in heels so... she and Bonnie are the smallest of the group so I thought her shoe size might have been a seven at most. 

Michaela's problem Is that she really does not know deep down inside how much of a boss bitch she is, due to her emotional mommy issues. She brags like she knows but...She's too busy looking for one and admiring other boss bitches way too much instead of truly admiring the "swamp" she had to trudge through to get where she is.

Finally, I'm beginning to resent Peter Nowalk as much as I use to resent Shonda Rhimes, he' in charge of this shit. He and Shonda just live screwing over my one favorite character when it comes to each of their shows.

But I did like the back story on Bonnie and Anna, after Michaela, Bonnie is the second person I feel bad for. The rest of them... I don't care.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, rur said:

Back in Season 1, didn't we see Bonnie acknowledging that she'd had an affair with Sam?

No. She did clearly have some sort of feelings/attraction for him that he played on - which was normal on her part since he was her therapist (transference), and shitty on his part but then he did marry another patient of his, so totally par for the course for him - but once he actually did something concrete in kissing her (for manipulative reasons, of course), she ran straight to Annalise.

My feeling is that when Sam and Annalise's marriage started really falling apart after their baby died, he played on Bonnie's interest in him to simultaneously make Annalise jealous and alienate her from Bonnie. It's the sort of twisted up dynamic that this show does. Bonnie is to some degree a surrogate child for Annalise and I don't think Sam liked that once their own child died. 

We knew Bonnie was raped by her father, but did we know that he also arranged for her to be raped by dozens of other men? Yikes. I didn't remember that part of it. Did that come out when she and Asher were fighting about the girl who was raped at Asher's party?

I'm actually more curious about the whereabouts of Bonnie's sister than I am Bonnie's child. Does the sister hate her for turning their father in? Did he kill the sister like he threatened Bonnie he would?

Can I just say again how fucked-up of a person Sam was, to marry one woman who came to see him to deal with her trauma of sexual abuse, and then pull similar shit on another woman who came to see him to deal with such trauma? And how broken Annalise had to be that she really never saw anything wrong with Sam marrying her or with recommending him as a therapist for Bonnie, who had known nothing but a stream of horrible men? And of course when Bonnie told Annalise about Sam crossing the line with her, Annalise basically blamed Bonnie rather than Sam and fired her.

I liked Annalise's dance of joy, but I also liked when it all came crashing down around her ears, because she did have it coming to her. She's been abusive to Bonnie over the years - I was glad Bonnie was allowed to make that point in her therapy session - and the way she fired her and booted her out wasn't the right way to handle it even if in her warped mind she really thought she was doing a good thing for Bonnie. And it's not like her class action is ruined. Virginia Cross represented (poorly) a lot of people, so Annalise can find more cases.

Anyway, I've always been so interested in Bonnie and Annalise's dynamic, so I loved this episode. At last some really solid backstory that answered when and how they met, etc! When Bonnie ran into the parking garage to find Annalise waiting for her, I just squeed in delight for the confrontation they'd spent the entire episode building up to.

Annalise not having any support staff anymore bit her in the ass two episodes in a row, so I thought it made sense that in this one she finally realized she'd have to get someone after all. Connor made sense since he was available and he came to see her. Of course, in hiring Connor she's also sort of repeating the same pattern as when she hired Bonnie, but hopefully it won't play out in such a toxic way.

I liked Wes and Laurel together, but given she's always had an inexplicable pull to Frank I wasn't surprised that she did cheat on Wes with him last season. I don't understand their conversation about Bonnie. I thought Bonnie was just letting him stay at her house. I don't think Bonnie would even be surprised that Frank and Laurel are sleeping together. Roll her eyes, yes, but be surprised, no.

[Happytobehere]

I agree that this season really highlights the fact that certain characters can and quite frankly need to go sooner rather  than later.  These characters are Connor, Nate and Laurel.  

I said last season and will say it again even though I’m back on the hate Bonnie train.  When all is said and done those left standing and united should be Annalise, Frank and Bonnie.  I like Michaela and Asher, so I hope they make it to move on together. I’m not a fan of Oliver with Connor, but could see a place for Oliver in a post Connor world.  

[auntiemel]

The one thing I couldn't get over this episode is how unprofessional Isaac was in the scene when he realized who Bonnie was. First of all, he totally shredded Annalise's confidentiality when he said, "Mae is Annalise Keating, amirite? And you're the one she fired!"

I mean, Annalise is a well-known figure in the legal community. He knew that whoever Bonnie was pretending to be was also involved in the legal community. I mean, think about the main piece of evidence that led him to make that leap of logic — the fact that Bonnie mentioned a class-action lawsuit. What if, perchance, there just happened to be two separate groups of lawyers in the greater Boston area involved in class-action lawsuits? He has just, in that case, outed the fact that her well-known legal colleague is not only seeing him for therapy, but is having ex-employee troubles that she's been discussing in therapy. Total ethical breach, and against someone who is likely to sue his ass. Not smart, in addition to being not ethical.

Additionally, he has such an outsized fear reaction when he has the realization of who she is. As if she has done something truly crazy or threatening. She hasn't. She's committed a major boundary violation,sure--but it's not as if he woke up in the middle of the night to find her standing at the foot of his bed watching him sleep. That's what he acted like it was.

Bottom line, she's his patient. She's lied a lot, and he now knows that there's a major conflict of interest in terms of continuing to treat her. He needs to refer her to a colleague immediately.

But, at that moment in time, she was still his patient. One that he knew had a horrific abuse history and problems with boundaries. His job was to help her deal with those boundary issues without feeling like she was crazy or wanting to self-harm. To help her understand that her impulses were natural, if unhealthy, and to develop healthy coping mechanisms to replace them.

He would know that to a person like that, trust is sacrosanct. Vulnerability is rare. For her to have transferred real trust and vulnerability to him as a therapist and then have him act like that, as if she's a complete lunatic and he's scared of her, when he finds out about a boundary violation that is actually totally predictable with her abuse history — well, if she was a real patient, he could've actually set her back years. That incident, with someone else, could've legitimately been the beginning of a deep depression cycle and suicidal ideations.

She's not a psychopath. She's a deeply damaged person with a trauma history and boundary troubles. He already knew that. It was his professional duty to put her psychological well-being first until such a time as he referred her to another doc.

Sorry for the long rant, but that really bothered me!

[secnarf]

Why does the class action lawsuit have to only consist of Virginia Cross' clients? If AK's intent is to prosecute and ultimately work to improve the publicly-funded attorney workload and situation, why can't she take anybody who was defended by a publicly-funded attorney?

[rubinia]

Did anyone else get kind of a squicky feeling when Tegan gave Michaela those shoes? Like maybe she likes Michaela as more than just her intern?

Edited October 29, 2017 by rubinia

[TwistedandBored]

I really loved that we got more in depth with Bonnie and Annalise's relationship. I also love seeing Oliver/Michaela teaming up and working together..same goes for Annalise and Conner. They make great teams. I don't like how disloyal Frank is to Bonnie. She is the only who believed in him and stood up for him and this is how he repays? Laurel and Nate remain the worst. 

[Milaxx]

20 hours ago, Fable said:

You could well be right, but Annalise is so manipulative, and again, she is blaming Bonnie that she was failing at her class action lawsuit.  To paraphrase, she says “I was trying to do something good, but look what you have done.”  She is constantly degrading Bonnie. 

I love Viola Davis in this role, but honestly, if the K4, Bonnie, Nate and Frank all pushed her off of a cliff somewhere, it would be well deserved. 

But this time she was right. Bonnie did sabotage her class action. They know each other so well, Bonnie knew what was likely to be AK's next move. She even confesses to Isaac that she did it to hurt her. I just don't get why Nate appears to be playing both sides. He encourages Bonnie to get proof that AK is meeting with the prisoners, then turns around and helps AK get the final 16 for her class action.

I still can't think why Micheala & Oliver are on #TeamBadDecisions with Laurel but more importantly why they are lying to their partners about helping her. They should have learned by now that keeping secrets within the group always comes back to bite them in the butt & elevate the body count.

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, Black Knight said:

No. She did clearly have some sort of feelings/attraction for him that he played on - which was normal on her part since he was her therapist (transference), and shitty on his part but then he did marry another patient of his, so totally par for the course for him - but once he actually did something concrete in kissing her (for manipulative reasons, of course), she ran straight to Annalise.

My feeling is that when Sam and Annalise's marriage started really falling apart after their baby died, he played on Bonnie's interest in him to simultaneously make Annalise jealous and alienate her from Bonnie. It's the sort of twisted up dynamic that this show does. Bonnie is to some degree a surrogate child for Annalise and I don't think Sam liked that once their own child died. 

We knew Bonnie was raped by her father, but did we know that he also arranged for her to be raped by dozens of other men? Yikes. I didn't remember that part of it. Did that come out when she and Asher were fighting about the girl who was raped at Asher's party?

I'm actually more curious about the whereabouts of Bonnie's sister than I am Bonnie's child. Does the sister hate her for turning their father in? Did he kill the sister like he threatened Bonnie he would?

Can I just say again how fucked-up of a person Sam was, to marry one woman who came to see him to deal with her trauma of sexual abuse, and then pull similar shit on another woman who came to see him to deal with such trauma? And how broken Annalise had to be that she really never saw anything wrong with Sam marrying her or with recommending him as a therapist for Bonnie, who had known nothing but a stream of horrible men? And of course when Bonnie told Annalise about Sam crossing the line with her, Annalise basically blamed Bonnie rather than Sam and fired her.

I liked Annalise's dance of joy, but I also liked when it all came crashing down around her ears, because she did have it coming to her. She's been abusive to Bonnie over the years - I was glad Bonnie was allowed to make that point in her therapy session - and the way she fired her and booted her out wasn't the right way to handle it even if in her warped mind she really thought she was doing a good thing for Bonnie. And it's not like her class action is ruined. Virginia Cross represented (poorly) a lot of people, so Annalise can find more cases.

Anyway, I've always been so interested in Bonnie and Annalise's dynamic, so I loved this episode. At last some really solid backstory that answered when and how they met, etc! When Bonnie ran into the parking garage to find Annalise waiting for her, I just squeed in delight for the confrontation they'd spent the entire episode building up to.

Annalise not having any support staff anymore bit her in the ass two episodes in a row, so I thought it made sense that in this one she finally realized she'd have to get someone after all. Connor made sense since he was available and he came to see her. Of course, in hiring Connor she's also sort of repeating the same pattern as when she hired Bonnie, but hopefully it won't play out in such a toxic way.

I liked Wes and Laurel together, but given she's always had an inexplicable pull to Frank I wasn't surprised that she did cheat on Wes with him last season. I don't understand their conversation about Bonnie. I thought Bonnie was just letting him stay at her house. I don't think Bonnie would even be surprised that Frank and Laurel are sleeping together. Roll her eyes, yes, but be surprised, no.

No we never knew the full extent of Bonnie's abuse by her father. I am also interested in Bonnie's sister. Apparently they have some contact with each other because she used her as an excuse last season when she went to Coalport and saw Frank. Was she abused as well or was Bonnie the identified child?

Sam was/is awful, darn near predatory as a therapist.  I get the impression that at some point he had genuine feelings for AK, but he crossed way too many boundaries in establishing that relationship and eventually just went full on creep between the infidelities, toying with Bonnie and just plain old murder.

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

Why does the class action lawsuit have to only consist of Virginia Cross' clients? If AK's intent is to prosecute and ultimately work to improve the publicly-funded attorney workload and situation, why can't she take anybody who was defended by a publicly-funded attorney?

I think because she needs and initial core group to then launch from going from small (single case w/ tattoo guy) to bigger. Like the premise is the DA's office is so overwhelmed and broken she admitted on the stand that she was unable to give this guy a good defense. In fact this happened to this group of people under this attorney over this amount of years, then expand to reviewing and possibly changing the way cases are handled by the DA's office in Philly>PA>Nationally.

[apn85]

I'll start by saying I have always been a fan of Laurel's. Always. I've stuck by her through a lot. 

It doesn't even shock me that she did what she did with Frank. She's always been drawn to Frank. In S1 she cheated on her boyfriend with him. In S2 she kissed Wes the night she was so upset with him. In S3 she slept with Wes because she was hurt by Frank seeing Bonnie but not her. So does it shock me that Laurel went there with Frank the second he came back into town? No. All of those things lead back to Frank.  It doesn't matter how pissed off she is at him, Frank is an addiction for her. That is how I've always viewed it. She can say she doesn't love him, maybe she doesn't, but there is something deep and underlying to constantly be the motivation for the shit she does. I wondered last week if they would reference episode 3x08 when we saw Frank getting dressed in her bedroom the next morning. I think I mentioned it somewhere around here. I wasn't surprised. 

My issue?

I believe she's known Frank was a possibility, but she convinced herself it had to belong to Wes, so she just ignored what happened between them that night.  An If you don't think about it, it'll go away sort of thing. Frank has every right to ask her that question. Every right. I don't care what Frank has done. If she's pregnant with his child, he has a right to ask! And the fact that she got all high and mighty while yelling at him that it was the biggest regret of her life....whatever, she'd do it again in a heartbeat. The only reason she feels that way is because Wes died and she feels guilty. I think guilt has motivated most of her grieving girlfriend bullshit. 

I'm also pissed that she's used her baby ALL THIS TIME to manipulate people into helping her. Michaela and Oliver are jeopardizing their lives and careers to help her based on a lie! I'm quite certain if Michaela knew Frank was in the running and she'd cheated on Wes that she'd be less inclined to feel sorry for her and help! Again, she acts like she doesn't even want the baby and gives off the impression she's only having it because of Wes. She called it "the stupid baby" a couple episodes ago. Mother of the Year. So, what? If it turns out to be Frank's is she just not gonna give a shit about it anymore? It didn't play into her created narrative so to hell with it? Sad thing is, the way she's going, he's gonna need Frank! Absolutely ridiculous. 

I'd also get on board with it being a hysterical pregnancy, but next episode it looks as if she's at the OB's office having an ultrasound when she asks about getting a paternity test done (pretty sure you could see it in the background) so I'm not sure how a hysterical pregnancy would fit into that if we actually see her at the OB. I'm sure there's a way, but I don't see how. I also still think the baby will turn out to belong to Wes. Nowalk is known for bringing up shit and just dropping it. I wouldn't be shocked if this was just something to make people tune in and nothing more. 

I have thoughts about the rest of the episode, but Laurel got me so fired up that it all escapes me at the moment. Aside from Liza deserving an Emmy for her performance, of course! 

Edited October 29, 2017 by apn85

[Milaxx]

I think the OB visit is a flashback. If they go with the hysterical pregnancy then it could be she got rid of it because Frank was the father. The compounding  grief & guilt over Wes drives her to this hysterical pregnancy. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I didn't get why Bonnie is out to mess with the defendants in the class action suit.  It's against the Public Defender's office and not her.  Yes, it might make her office's job harder, if the Public Defender's office is forced to get more staff and resources, but, that is way down the road.  I just don't get her personal vendetta.  I mean, it just struck me as a waste of time.  I didn't think much was accomplished this episode.  I was impressed with the crying in the therapist office.  Man, that was a lot of crying.  The trouble is that it's hard to move me when the subject is Annalise.  I mean, she is my favorite character.....or, at least she used to be.  If she doesn't get her act together, that is going to change.  The writing has let her character go, imo, and she's just lost it.  Her old character is what drew me in.  If they can't recapture, it, the show is doomed, imo. 

Michaela is so brilliant about some things, but, so dense on others.  She frustrates me. 

I can't wait until Frank gets into law school.  (Wink)

Edited October 29, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Keepitmoving]

What Bonnie said in the flashback on the stand along with what Anna said, has got to be tied to Laurel's baby. Seriously, it can't be a coincidence that Bonnie mentions being drugged and the baby being gone when she woke up, that her father took it, while Anna brings up a hysterical pregnancy. Both theories being put out there in this flashback will cover Nowalk either way. Someone could have drugged her and taken the baby since in the flash foward it was mentioned that there were drugs found in her system. By the way does anyone remember what those drugs were? I could have sworn that Frank mentioned them to the Dr.. Or it's a hysterical pregnancy. Either way, what was revealed in the flash back about Bonnie's "baby" of course will be "ironically" coming full circle when it comes to what happened to Laurel's "baby."

Quote

Michaela is so brilliant about some things, but, so dense on others.  She frustrates me. 

This is where her stunted growth hampers her, because she never had a childhood. I stand by what I posted though, that I still consider her more grown than the rest because she's had to be so the fact that she keeps looking up to these other people in the way she does bugs me. You are a boss bitch Michaela, learn from these women but stop idolizing them so much. Your childhood was taking from you, and you can't get it back you gotta move on.  It drives me crazy,because she's the one person who I feel shouldn't be bowing down to anyone including Anna. But I totally get how when it comes to anything personal, she would make all the wrong choices. She knows all about the law, her school grades, her ability to get her job done, perfection. But once you bring in anything personal, she can't make the smart choices. I have no idea, and I call bullshit on her trying so hard to bring down Wes's killer. They were not close and she has nothing to feel guilty over, please Peter Nowalk. Again, fucking over my favorite character  for the characters you really give a shit about. The only thing I can muster up is that deep down she just might consider all of them her family, more of a family than she ever had growing up, which is why she doesn't really hate Anna, her reactions to me are that of a daughter having a tantrum and saying she hates her mother, when it's a lot more complicated than that. So Wes is like the brother who although they might not have been close he was part of the family. But because Peter Nowalk put such a limited amount of time and effort into her back story, that's all I can come up with. Otherwise it all makes no sense.

Regarding lying to Asher, she  told Oliver while he was complaining about lying to his boyfriend about what he was doing, that they were lying to protect both Asher and Connor. So there's the answer as to why she's not telling Asher, keep him out of it, this way he can't be implicated. Of course this is about to back fire because she has no idea just how insecure Asher is, but that was her reasoning.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I didn't get why Bonnie is out to mess with the defendants in the class action suit.  It's against the Public Defender's office and not her.  Yes, it might make her office's job harder, if the Public Defender's office is forced to get more staff and resources, but, that is way down the road.  I just don't get her personal vendetta.  

Because it had nothing to do with who the actual case was against, it had to do with Bonnie ruining Anna's accomplishment. She needed forty defendants for the case to go forward and Bonnie got them to drop like flies. Again, these people are not emotionally well at all and Bonnie, understandably, is at the top of the list of those who are the most ill, poor thing. I feel for her, raped by dozens of men, nope, it was dozens upon dozens, with her dad at the top of the list, good lord. The fact that she functions at all is a miracle. She like Michaela is reacting to Anna's rejection or what she sees as rejection, like a little sister, a daughter , a girlfriend, with Bonnie it's weird because I can't tell what the actual relationship is. Sisters and daughters aren't supposed to be kissing sisters and mothers on the lips the way she and Anna kissed last season so....With Michaela it's a clear mommy vibe that she's looking for and trying to project onto to Anna. Bonnie and Anna is weird with all the incest shit going on, very weird. Then, you had Anna's husband being her therapist then unethically like he did with Anna making out with Bonnie, it's all sick, just sick. But she's crying in the Dr's office talking about missing their family, which included Anna, her husband, Frank and Bonnie. She's angry and wants to stop Anna from being successful at every turn, maybe to the point that Anna begs her to come back even.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Regarding lying to Asher, she  told Oliver while he was complaining about lying to his boyfriend about what he was doing, that they were lying to protect both Asher and Connor. So there's the answer as to why she's not telling Asher, keep him out of it, this way he can't be implicated. Of course this is about to back fire because she has no idea just how insecure Asher is, but that was her reasoning.

I get that. It's just time and time again we see how lying to protect someone hurts these guys yet they do it again an again. I guess I should just become resigned to the fact that this is part of the conceit of the show.

Regarding Michaela's stunted growth I agree completed. In many ways I think the Keating gang each reflects a flaw in Annalise' the queen of dysfunction's personality or life event.  Michaela's can be just as much of a "boss bitch" but tends to have awful taste in men. Connor turns to sex & drinking, Bonnie is her mini me. Wes represented her long lost child. I can't think of anything for Asher though.

Just rewatched 4.1. Franks tells Isaac they found drugs in her system. Isaac asks, "what drugs." but before he can answer Laurel wakes up and starts screaming. So we don't know what drugs.

There's also that gun Laurel bought last season. We should just start calling it Checkov's gun. We'v seen Laurel with it several times but it has yet to be used. I'm pretty sure it will appear at one of the crime scenes.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Milaxx

[possibilities]

Maybe Laurel goes to Anna's place to shoot Anna or Connor, and instead she's ambushed by a minion of her father, who drugs her, extracts the fetus, and calls 911 so someone will show up and bring her to the ER.

I've been trying to find a way to get Laurel to Anna's place, and the gun is the only reason I can think of so far. She's crazy enough to think she can threaten Anna, right?

I dunno.

I just hope Anna and Connor aren't there when the bloody whatever happens. Isaac was looking for Anna during the hospital scene, and that  made no sense to me, either. Why would he be calling her? Why would he be there in the first place?

[SunnyBeBe]

I wouldn't put it past Laurel, at this point, to shoot Michaela or anyone else, who refuses to get the info on this company she's fixated on. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

This show is trying to get me to hate Laurel but I can't, I won't! I hate that they're piling crappy twist on top of crappy twist with her story right now

I don’t hate Laurel, but I’m having a hard time taking her character seriously this season. The writers seem to have devolved her to the point where she’s solely a plot device. The reveal that Frank might be her baby’s father makes me think they are running out of ideas (much like the reveal of Charles Mahoney being Wes’s father, a twist that did nothing to further any story or character development)

When the reveal of Wes’ killer happened at the end of last season, I envisioned Laurel going it alone and planning some long con to find out the truth and get revenge. I didn’t think she’d rope other people into a harebrained scheme that seems to have little hope of succeeding. In short, I thought she’d be a lot smarter about the whole thing. So, it’s disappointing to see the direction the writers have chosen.

[apn85]

21 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I think the OB visit is a flashback. If they go with the hysterical pregnancy then it could be she got rid of it because Frank was the father. The compounding  grief & guilt over Wes drives her to this hysterical pregnancy. 

I guess we'll have to see. I thought I saw like a 3D image on the screen of a bigger baby. Maybe it's a flashback, who knows. If she literally aborted her baby because it belonged to Frank, I'll never see her the same way again. It's hard now, but that would be the icing on the cake for me. If she doesn't want to go down the Motherhood road regardless of who the Father was, fine! I can get behind that completely! She actually doesn't need to based on her behavior lately. Annalise was right to tell her she was about to have a child, so she needed to stop behaving like one. But if the paternity of the child was the deciding factor, I just can't. Especially given what she's doing with him now. If he was a danger to her or something like that, I could understand, but he would literally never do anything to her. I'm not saying he's a saint and hasn't got a shitload of sins he's carting behind himself, but Laurel is the one person he tries to get it together for. The only person. So she doesn't even have that excuse. Nobody made her screw Frank the second he walked back into town. She used condoms with Wes (as we found out in the scene where they are in the bathtub and the topic of the condom breaking came up and the fact that she wasn't on birth control), so she could have been a responsible adult and done the same with Frank. I'm tired of the poor pitiful me crap. She's a big girl that made her own choices and she needs to take responsibility for them.

I'm not trying to spark any sort of debate with that, honest. I am literally speaking about this fictional scenario and nothing else.  

Edited October 30, 2017 by apn85

[Milaxx]

Keep in mind Laurel has a family history of mental illness. All the Keatibg kinda kids have been living with a form of PTSD. We’ve seen them all acting out as a result. Wes was even admitted & saw a therapist for a while. We’ve also seen that against her better judgment Frank is the guy she goes back to time again. She cheated on Khan in season 1. Cheated on Wes last season & this season appears to be using him as a meat stick. I may not like her behavior but it tracks with someone in the midst of a breakdown. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Milaxx

[jhlipton]

On 10/26/2017 at 8:08 PM, truthaboutluv said:

More and more it's not looking good for poor Tegan. 

On a side note though, Aja could not walk very well in those heels. Sort of killed the whole boss bitchness of the moment. 

On 10/26/2017 at 9:40 PM, Jodie Landon said:

I read way too much into that walk. I thought it was an acting choice. I thought that they were trying to show that even with all her confidence Michaela is still just playing dress up. She wants to be Tegan (and even still, Annalise), but she just isn't at boss bitch level yet.

They better not kill Tegan!

IIRC, the "boss walk" was shot from the ankles down, so if Aja had problems with the heels, they could have brought in someone who didn't.  That makes it seem intentional, but I'm not sure what the intention was.

On 10/26/2017 at 8:47 PM, possibilities said:

Isaac scared me a little when he flipped out on her. "You need a lot more help than I can give you"? Wow. It's one thing to say he can't be her therapist. It's a whole other totally unprofessional thing to react the way he did.

On 10/27/2017 at 1:03 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I'm glad Isaac figured out who Bonnie is. But what was up with his reaction?

Even before he found out that Bonnie was lying, he said that she was "his trigger".  That's what caused his reaction, but trigger for what?

On 10/26/2017 at 9:16 PM, Dee said:

When did Michaela begin considering Wes a friend? When he was alive, she disliked him nearly as much as Connor.

When the plot needed it.

On 10/28/2017 at 0:23 AM, possibilities said:

All I can think of so far is that Anna went deeper into her alcoholism, and became more and more bitter and angry and crazy after her miscarriage and what happened with Christophe/Wes/his mom

Anna's change definitely came after her dealing with the Mahoney's.  Both she and Sam became different people (with good reason) after that.

[jhlipton]

23 minutes ago, doram said:

That was Annalisse though, wasn't it?

At the end of his notes, Isaac said "my next patient is my trigger".  So it was after Anna's session, but referring to Bonnie.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Finally got around to watching this episode...

Louboutins? For an intern? ? She's going to have to declare those on her taxes, right?

When Laurel said, "It's not yours," she was shaking her head up and down versus sideways. Someone professionally versed in body language told me once that such a discrepancy usually revealed a conflict between what was said and the truth.

Whoa, Dr. Roa's face when he realized who Bonnie really was. And how nucking futz she is. Brilliant acting by Jimmy Smits.

I'm glad the show finally made it safe to suggest around here that Frank might be Laurel's baby daddy. And I don't understand why some are calling it a retcon. It was fairly clear last season that Frank and Laurel slept together and I think odds are pretty good that she was already pregnant before she and Wes got back together after he broke up with that nurse he was seeing.

Quote

Did anyone else get kind of a squicky feeling when Tegan gave Michaela those shoes? Like maybe she likes Michaela as more than just her intern?

Maybe Tegan gets killed because Asher thinks she's trying to "steal" Michaela. FFS, those ridiculously expensive shoes are something he would see himself as not being able to compete with--not at the moment anyway.

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Anna's change definitely came after her dealing with the Mahoney's.  Both she and Sam became different people (with good reason) after that.

We've seen Annalise drink heavily throughout the show. There's a scene where she's drinking heavily while dictating notes for the Hapdtal case. Sam has always been trash. Remember he not only married his patient, he eeft his first wife for his patient and marred her.

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

At the end of his notes, Isaac said "my next patient is my trigger".  So it was after Anna's session, but referring to Bonnie.

That's incorrect. Ep 4. 4 starting at the 53.36 mark. we see Isaac dictating ntes into a recorder. It's interspersed with various scene (Bonnie/Nate, Laurel, Annalise working etc...)  Isaac is dictating notes on Annalise. He makes remarks about her "self inflicting penance for the lives she feels she may have ruined. when said plans fails I fear she may be headed for relapse or worse."  "Patient continues to isolate, refusing help" ...."Her grandiosity and workaholic tendencies make me worry about hypomania".... "...When confronted with the possibility that the recent loss of her student, Wes Gibbons, is pushing her to take on this extreme work load, patient shuts down. (57.33 mark) which is perhaps better for me. The patient is a trigger for me. I need to be mindful. (Light for doorbell comes on) "My new patient just arrive.d" .  It's a dictation note about Annalise.  Annalise is a trigger for Isaac, not Bonnie.

[possibilities]

I did feel like the expensive shoes were a problem. I wondered if it could be bait of some kind, but I didn't know what. Is it an ethical violation? A trap? I don't know exactly,  but I felt very uncomfortable about it. It was a very expensive gift, and it also felt overly personal. Not quite giving your intern lingerie, but still somehow over the line.

I don't want Tegan to be bad news, but I suppose no one on this show is free of corruption of some kind.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

I don't see Frank or Laurel as being awful.  Wes is dead; Frank isn't married to Bonnie.  I don't get what's "creepy" or "awful."  As I said, Wes is dead and Frank isn't married.  I'm not even sure what Frank and Bonnie are. 

As someone else noted, what makes Laurel awful in this situation was all her over the top grieving girlfriend routine. Telling Connor that he should kill himself and do the world a favor because he, like most people would have, ran out of the house when he found an already dead Wes and realized that the house was seconds from blowing up. And then was too scared to tell anyone because he figured they'd probably think he did it. Then she made her big dramatic speech at Wes' memorial service, essentially acting like no one was allowed to grieve for Wes but her. Laurel has acted like Wes' death was hers to own and only to find out that she fucked someone else behind his back when he was alive, lied to him about it and could be carrying said person's baby while she's saying it's Wes'.

And that would all be bad enough already but then there's her shitty attitude towards Frank himself, acting like he his out of line to ask if the baby could be his because that moment was the single biggest regret of her life. Except not enough of a regret to not keep fucking him, including IN BONNIE'S BED. Yes, we don't know what the hell is Bonnie and Frank's status but whatever it is, he clearly feels the need to lie about banging Laurel to her. Laurel and Frank at this point isn't romantic, it isn't sexy, it isn't deliciously twisted. It's just annoying and adds fuck all to the show, in my opinion. Of course as I've said, this is the one show where I hate every couple so there's that. 

 

Quote

Back in Season 1, didn't we see Bonnie acknowledging that she'd had an affair with Sam?

I don't think so. Right from the start, it was obvious she had feelings for Sam but it wasn't clear that it was reciprocated on his part. And as things started going south and getting nastier between her and Annalise, Annalise threw her obvious feelings for Sam in her face, making it clear that everyone knew. Then later, Sam kissed her when Bonnie made it clear that she knew that he'd an affair with Lila, the currently dead co-ed (remember in the season finale flashback, we saw that Lila came to the house to tell Annalise about her affair with Sam and Bonnie answered the door and threatened her to leave). Despite her feelings for Sam, Bonnie recognized the move as the manipulation it was and she went and confessed what happened to Annalise. That was the first of many scenes highlighting the weird power dynamic of that relationship, with Bonnie literally going on her knees and begging Annalise for forgiveness. 

 

Quote

Did anyone else get kind of a squicky feeling when Tegan gave Michaela those shoes? Like maybe she likes Michaela as more than just her intern?

I didn't get that impression but I did wonder if the show was not so subtly hinting that Tegan is a lesbian when after she ragged on Annalise, she mentioned that she was still hot though. Michaela gave her a "say what" look and she just looked back at her with her a shrug and the conversation ended there. It seemed a random thing to throw in so I kind of thought at that point that she may be a lesbian.

Edited October 31, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[possibilities]

I hadn't thought of the lesbian theory, but if that's where they're going, I'm totally down for a relationship between Tegan and Annalise. Tegan would be her equal and would NOT take her BS.

[Milaxx]

I did the moment she said AK was 'Hot"

[jhlipton]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:35 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

When Laurel said, "It's not yours," she was shaking her head up and down versus sideways. Someone professionally versed in body language told me once that such a discrepancy usually revealed a conflict between what was said and the truth.

Either that or she's been around too many people from Mumbai...

On 10/30/2017 at 4:37 PM, Milaxx said:

We've seen Annalise drink heavily throughout the show. There's a scene where she's drinking heavily while dictating notes for the Hapdtal case. Sam has always been trash. Remember he not only married his patient, he eeft his first wife for his patient and marred her.

That's incorrect. Ep 4. 4 starting at the 53.36 mark. we see Isaac dictating ntes into a recorder. It's interspersed with various scene (Bonnie/Nate, Laurel, Annalise working etc...)  Isaac is dictating notes on Annalise. He makes remarks about her "self inflicting penance for the lives she feels she may have ruined. when said plans fails I fear she may be headed for relapse or worse."  "Patient continues to isolate, refusing help" ...."Her grandiosity and workaholic tendencies make me worry about hypomania".... "...When confronted with the possibility that the recent loss of her student, Wes Gibbons, is pushing her to take on this extreme work load, patient shuts down. (57.33 mark) which is perhaps better for me. The patient is a trigger for me. I need to be mindful. (Light for doorbell comes on) "My new patient just arrive.d" .  It's a dictation note about Annalise.  Annalise is a trigger for Isaac, not Bonnie.

I know that's a typo, but you have to admit it fits brilliantly!
Sorry about getting the "trigger" line wrong!  I count on watchers like you to set me straight.  LOL

[apn85]

On 10/30/2017 at 9:49 AM, doram said:

That was Annalisse though, wasn't it?

If Laurel doesn't want Frank's baby, I don't understand what's so horrifying about her choosing not to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. After health, financial competence, paternity is the next most common reason for deciding on an abortion. 

That in itself is not horrifying. If she was actually horrified by him. However, she's still very much in contact with and screwing him. I mean, sure, you can look at it several different ways (no debate here from me) but I just don't get it. If you think he's so terrible (and yeah, he's done terrible things) then STAY AWAY from him. If he's the sole reason to have an abortion then why in the hell would you keep sleeping with him?! I just don't get it. Wes would be rolling over in his grave right about now! He was a person truly horrified by Frank.

Edited November 1, 2017 by apn85

[apn85]

On 10/30/2017 at 7:50 PM, truthaboutluv said:

As someone else noted, what makes Laurel awful in this situation was all her over the top grieving girlfriend routine. Telling Connor that he should kill himself and do the world a favor because he, like most people would have, ran out of the house when he found an already dead Wes and realized that the house was seconds from blowing up. And then was too scared to tell anyone because he figured they'd probably think he did it. Then she made her big dramatic speech at Wes' memorial service, essentially acting like no one was allowed to grieve for Wes but her. Laurel has acted like Wes' death was hers to own and only to find out that she fucked someone else behind his back when he was alive, lied to him about it and could be carrying said person's baby while she's saying it's Wes'.

And that would all be bad enough already but then there's her shitty attitude towards Frank himself, acting like he his out of line to ask if the baby could be his because that moment was the single biggest regret of her life. Except not enough of a regret to not keep fucking him, including IN BONNIE'S BED. Yes, we don't know what the hell is Bonnie and Frank's status but whatever it is, he clearly feels the need to lie about banging Laurel to her. Laurel and Frank at this point isn't romantic, it isn't sexy, it isn't deliciously twisted. It's just annoying and adds fuck all to the show, in my opinion. Of course as I've said, this is the one show where I hate every couple so there's that. 

3

 

Yes to ALL of this, but specifically the bolded. 

I know Frank has done some shit in his day. I completely understand those who cannot endure him and wish he'd been the one to go instead of Wes. I get it. However, IMO, he doesn't even deserve Laurel's shit. He didn't make those choices by himself. Hell, he would have never initiated what is currently going on between them and I have my doubts he's the one who initiated what happened between them last season. The guy is scared of her. He walks on eggshells. He was sitting in the car with her trying to have a conversation which included him saying he thought she'd make a great Mom (maybe S1 & S2 Laurel would have done an okay job.....) and she literally pounces on him. I'm sure he's wondered if the baby could be his for a while now but has probably been too scared to ask her. She had an equal part when it comes to this mess and I just get sick of her berating him constantly. He had every right to ask her if the baby might be his without her yelling about it being the biggest regret of her life and telling him to get the hell out. And on a completely unrelated note, it was Frank who pointed out they did NOT need to have sex in Wes' old apartment! Laurel was good to go! No regrets there! I don't think he'll ever wake up and smell the roses when it comes to her, but I would have told her to fuck right off. 

I was a bit confused by Frank saying he felt horrible too about sleeping with her in Bonnie's house. I don't *think* they are together, but Frank has to know how Bonnie feels about him and Laurel in general. If nothing else, her telling him if Laurel mattered that much to him then he could just go live with her should have tipped him off. Either way, they know better and it's a shitty thing to do. Grow up and find your own apartments. Laurel can afford it, and nobody wants Frank's damn suitcase money, so quit freeloading off Bonnie! 

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone having to defend the usual guilty parties and talk this way about one who was my favorite from day one. I can't even defend her anymore, though! 

[koganei]

anyway, the absolutely incompetent therapist broke his professional code right?

by revealing to Bonnie that Analise sees him too.

even if he caught on and knows Bonnie is lying, he cant reveal the name right?

[Milaxx]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Either that or she's been around too many people from Mumbai...

I know that's a typo, but you have to admit it fits brilliantly!
Sorry about getting the "trigger" line wrong!  I count on watchers like you to set me straight.  LOL

LOL I swear no matter how many times I check, I make  typos

35 minutes ago, koganei said:

anyway, the absolutely incompetent therapist broke his professional code right?

by revealing to Bonnie that Analise sees him too.

even if he caught on and knows Bonnie is lying, he cant reveal the name right?

Yes he broke confidentiality.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

LOL I swear no matter how many times I check, I make  typos

At least that was a fun one!

[Milaxx]

For the record, I don't think Frank & Laurel slept in Bonnie's bed. ( At least I hope not. ) Just that they were sneaking behind her back, sleeping in her house, which as has been pointed out is unnecessary as long as Frank has suitcase money.

[Milaxx]

Frank must really have that good good. 

[apn85]

5 hours ago, doram said:

... because sex and kids are 2 entirely different things?

Good sex lasts the night but children are a life time commitment. Just because a woman enjoys sex with a man does not behold her to have or want* his children. 

(*Any more of his children, for that matter. Because it's perfectly possible for a married couple to not want more children - or any children. Should they also stop sleeping together?)

1

 

Obviously, I understand that sex and kids are two different things. Nothing you said above is what I meant by my post. What I am trying to say is IF (and it's obviously speculation) she decided to have an abortion ONLY because Frank was a hideous person who she wanted no part of then I do not understand her actions now. That's all I'm trying to say. If she didn't want a kid with him, cool. That's great! Lots of people make that choice and I support it completely. This isn't a normal situation, so I can't even look at it that way or compare it to a normal woman enjoying sex or a married couple not wanting any more children. I can only look at it from the fictional situation it is and I guess I just think if I felt that strongly against someone, had accused him of murdering my boyfriend, stated sleeping with him and *possibly* getting pregnant was the biggest regret of my life, then all that would most likely outweigh good sex for me. I think I could probably find it in me to bypass Frank and seek out good sex elsewhere. That's all. 

34 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Frank must really have that good good. 

Apparently! 

[apn85]

2 hours ago, doram said:

Look, Laurel is trash, or being written like trash (I personally don't see the difference but I know it's important to some people) and I'm never going to argue otherwise. But I object to the general premise that it's immoral/contemptible/whatever-ethical-no-being-defined-here that Laurel would want sex from Frank and NOT want to been permanently connected to him through another human being. 

The 'abnormal melodrama of it all' has no bearing on this. Whether it's a dysfunctional dynamic like Laurel/Frank, or a "friends-with-benefits" arrangement, or an illicit affair, or a summer fling, or a child-free married couple ---- the decision to abort a baby because of paternity is nothing unusual, and certainly not wrong. 

Tl dr... the relationship itself is definitely a reflection of Laurel's trashy character and general narcissist dysfunctional. But her wanting to abort a baby she clearly doesn't want is just common sense. 

Once again, I never said it was WRONG. I said I didn't understand and I don't understand Laurel right now. Not even a little bit. Doesn't mean it's wrong or horrifying or unusual or anything of the sort. There is a difference between not understanding something and flat out declaring it to be wrong. We each feel how we feel, and that's perfectly fine. To each their own!