S13.E03: Patience

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Great analysis, SueB.  The conversations between Sam and Dean were really uncomfortable to listen to, as they should be.  The one place I think it breaks down a bit, though, is when Sam passed on the case to Jody without even mentioning it to Dean. He came across (to me) as clueless as to why that was a problem.

Totally agree.  That was no bueno.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I worked late Thursday and missed the first 10-15 minutes.  As I sat down and watched the rest of the episode, I kept thinking that I must have missed some important stuff in the beginning.  So I wanted to wait until I watched the whole thing all the way through before commenting.  And boy, I was right.  A LOT happened in those first 13 minutes (that’s how far along the ep was when I recognized where I came in.) 

So I wrote down things as I rewatched, as is my wont.  But I wanted to give some time for the dust to settle, so to speak.  I also haven’t read all the previous comments, and doubt I will, so apologies in advance for any redundancy.   

• The blonde psychic at the beginning was really familiar.  I thought she’d been on SPN before, so I looked her up, but she hasn’t.  
• It was nice seeing Missouri Mosely again.  I really didn’t think they’d kill her off when I heard she was coming back.  I guess I should have known, given the show’s history with that kind of thing.  ? I wish she’d gotten more time with Dean.  And Dean with her.  I thought it odd that she was a hunter – that is a real hunter who went out on hunts when James was a little boy.  She just didn’t seem the type.  Maybe she had a specialty, like she only did ghosts and vengeful spirits, because I just can’t see her trampling through the wood and taking down a wendigo!
• Patience is beautiful, but she did NOT look like she was in high school!  Gotta admit: that took me out of the story a little.  Buckhead, GA!  I thought of @AwesomO4000, as I think she’s near there.
• It was good to see Jody, although I thought she was seriously underutilized this ep.  And ew when she picked up the wraith-bone.
• Interesting contrast with Jack watching the video from Kelly telling him that she always wanted to be a mother and Sam sort of eavesdropping (I mean, the door was still open, so there's that).  Sadly, I got the impression that Sam wondered if Mary ever felt the same, because her actions since she was brought back don’t really bear that out, imo.  And then I chuckled when I saw Sam reading a book on child-rearing.  That probably wasn’t supposed to be funny, but it kind of was.
• I don’t like it when the guys fight, but I did think Sam’s point about when he was on demon blood was well done.  Plus, he was wearing one of my favorite shirts on him, so maybe that helped.  ?  I know he didn’t deny that part of the reason he was keeping Jack around was because he thought Jack could reopen the rift so they could find Mary (I knew that already), but I do like the idea of Sam paying forward the support he got back when pretty much everyone thought he’d go total darkside.
• One thing that really bothered me (more than Patience not looking like a high school student, lol) upon first watch was there was no way James should have beat Dean up the stairs after Patience screamed.  Dean would not have taken the time to share a look with Jody before taking off.  He knew the wraith was after Patience.  Dean would have been the first one up the stairs.  But, he did have a couple nice saves (Patience and Jody, since Jody was unconscious she’d have been a goner too.  Not so sure about James.  He was apparently still conscious but out of action due to an injury.  Although, let’s be honest, if Dean had been taken out they’d all be dead, so yeah, three saves) and a really nice kill, so there’s that.
• I liked the way Patience’s dream/vision was edited in with the present reality at the high school right before the wraith attacked her.  Good fake out with Patience’s vision at the end.  I know – I should have caught on when Jody got stabbed, but I really figured it out when Dean went down.   I’m a little slow sometimes. ? 
• Oh look, while everyone else has been working and filming, Misha’s just been taking a nice little nap on the floor.  ?

[Bessie]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

 It was raw and complicated from my perspective.  

I'll complicate your analysis a little more. ; ) I'm not so sure Dean really holds Jack responsible for Castiel's death. He's an easy target for Dean's anger and I don't doubt that just seeing him brings back traumatic memories for Dean. But, I think he's angry at Mary and Cas. He's angry that their actions led to their deaths.  And with Cas, he's also dealing with his betrayal. The problem is, being angry with people you love who have died sucks. It's so much easier to take it out on someone else. In Dean's case, Jack makes a handy target right now. Sam does too, but at the moment jack is getting the brunt of it, even though Dean is trying to reel it in when he's present. 

And I think he's trying to reel it in because he knows it wasn't Jack's fault. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Bessie

[MysteryGuest]

I personally don't think they're being wary enough of Jack, all things considered.  Lucifer has fucked with the brothers for years now, and Jack is his son.  They've been unsuccessful in killing Lucifer, and based on the lore, Jack should be even more powerful.  This is the problem I have with all of these super powerful beings...why would you ever turn your back on them?  I know there is the possibility that Jack won't be like Lucifer, but considering it's 50/50, I think they're being pretty nonchalant around him.  I get that they have no idea how to kill him, if they had to, but it just seems that they're a bit too relaxed around him.  It doesn't really ring true to me.

[7kstar]

On 10/26/2017 at 9:21 PM, Katy M said:

Repeating from above - but did anyone else hear Jody say 'had a daughter, Claire' (not have). That was weird. Did Kim just bobble the word, or did Claire not go home again after the werewolf thing?

I took it as, Claire left to go hunting on her own and she tried to keep her out of it, but she refused to do what Jody asked.  So now she'll support whatever Patience wants to do.  If you need an ear, call.  Yes it's the set up for the spin off.

Missouri Mosely was supposed to come back in Season 2.  They had planned for her but the actress couldn't do it, so they created Bobby.  So I can see that they had a plan but it wasn't used so it does suck that they killed her off.  But perhaps they will find a way to use her in the spin off if they want as a vision or spirit warning...

I do like the idea of this spin off.  I can see Jodi being a strong enough character to make it interesting but it will depend on the writing.

The fight with Dean and Sam...Dean is mad, and mad people do horrible stuff.  My older brother is angry right now, and he is doing some really shitty stuff, so yes I can see why Dean is saying what he is saying.  My biggest issue, is I'm bored with this issue so I don't really care.  Let's move on. shall we?

Parts I liked and parts not so much.  I didn't really love the first ep of the season but I did like this one.  I haven't seen the second one, so will wait to see how I feel about the season.

I didn't have a problem with the boys being split up.  I would have liked to seen Jodi and Dean get a conversation but it may be coming as she knows he's too raw for her to do anything helpful yet...maybe

So it had some solid moments and some WTF moments   so maybe B- ....

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Bessie said:

I'll complicate your analysis a little more. ; ) I'm not so sure Dean really holds Jack responsible for Castiel's death. He's an easy target for Dean's anger and I don't doubt that just seeing him brings back traumatic memories for Dean. But, I think he's angry at Mary and Cas. He's angry that their actions led to their deaths.  And with Cas, he's also dealing with his betrayal. The problem is, being angry with people you love who have died sucks. It's so much easier to take it out on someone else. In Dean's case, Jack makes a handy target right now. Sam does too, but at the moment jack is getting the brunt of it, even though Dean is trying to reel it in when he's present. 

And I think he's trying to reel it in because he knows it wasn't Jack's fault. 

Oh you are SPOT ON.  I think that too.  Just failed to mention it.  

Yes, Supernatural is, IMO, doing a really complicated and realistic treatment of dealing with traumatic family death.  Death is weekly for these guys but Mary and Cas are traumatic in a 'personal life tragedy' kind of way.  

[Icarus]

10 hours ago, SueB said:

I think the writing for Dean’s grief and Jensen’s acting has been stellar. I find it VERY nuanced.  Dean starts off the episode with a 12 pack of dead soldiers (drunken beer bottles) listening to a brain melting song from The Rolling Stones.  He has a fresh bottle in his hand when they are talking about Jody.  

Dean reacts viscerally to Sam’s ‘we need Jack’ argument. First I thought it was ‘I heard you the first time’ dismissal, now we know Dean’s pissed at Sam selling Jack as an inter dimensional can-opener and feels that’s dishonest.  

He’s barely keeping it together w/Missouri and Jody and his ‘dandy’ response was a ‘don’t ask’ response.  Both Missouri (even in their limited interactions) and Jody know that was a great big signal flare that Dean is not going to want to talk about his losses and NEEDS to focus on the case.  And even though Missouri was facing death, she got straight into Dean’s face and told him to save her family. She not only needed that from him but she was letting him know she was relying on him.  Further, when Dean found out she knew she was dying and didn’t come, he had to know that this woman gave him her dying wish.  That’s a pretty profound level of trust and interchange right there IMO.  

When Sam snaps at Dean for telling Jack he’d kill him, Dean first tries to play it off and then he just opens up a can of pain.  And this is such a different level for Dean.  It’s not parody, this is raw.  He’s literally screaming at Sam that he thinks Jack mislead Cas and got Cas killed.  He’s lost his cool.  And the impression is clear, IMO:  THIS is how Dean is feeling right now.  The earlier beer and music were a good metaphor.  He’s doing everything to full the pain but it’s screaming in his head.  How is this parody?

 

Now let’s talk Sam. Sam KNOWS Dean is in pain and he’s shut down. So EVERY interaction is a negotiation.  He’s not condescending, he’s trying to make a case.  He doesn’t see that Dean has not only heard everything that Sam has already said, but is still rejecting 100% any attempt to humanize Jack.  And Dean is so harsh because Sam keeps trying.  It’s not til the end that Sam really hears how Dean is feeling. And it isn’t ‘dead inside’, it’s white-hot rage and grief.  

With Jack, Sam is IMO making all the right moves.  He thought control was the obvious first step.  But now he knows the extent of damage Jack’s psyche has already taken. Perhaps Dean didn’t mention the stab-a-thon. Seems like the boys aren’t talking.  

And Sam demonstrated that he’s finally OVER being triggered by the word ‘freak’.  (Note:If you think that word usage by Dean is unintentional, then you really have no appreciation for how injured Dean is by Sam helping the ‘thing’ that killed Cas). But Sam knew it and pressed on.  He called out what he thought was hypocrisy on Dean’s part.  That Dean thinks Sam was not as bad as Jack is.  Honestly, I’m personally inclined to agree with Sam.  Sam was in much worse shape than Jack.  So Sam did a decent job, IMO, of hearing Dean and responding with a reasonable argument.  

But I don’t think Sam was prepared for Dean to release his rage like that.  And Sam does not hold Jack responsible for Cas’ death. ETA: And Sam laid a trap for Dean to force that conversation. He clearly had talked to Jody  He took Missouri’s death off the table. Sam wanted to confront Dean about messing up Jack’s psyche and he effectively forced the issue.

In years past, this would have been a much more surface conversation and neither brother IMO would have ‘opened up a vein’ like they did in that final conversation.  It’s a testament to how strong their relationship has been that they can’t go back to truly ignoring the topic until the feels go away.  They are not going away for either. And they are not on the same page but at least both understand each other better IMO.  

So, ‘one dimensional’ and ‘parody’?   I just don’t see how those words applied.  It was raw and complicated from my perspective.  

You got all this from this episode, but I most definitely didn't. I have nothing but praise for Jensen and Jared's acting skills but this analysis, although deeply thoughtful is not how I saw the episode. Too qualify a little I am way past the watching episodes again and again and desperately waiting for the next one. I only watch once and then maybe the odd time again and then I usually try and watch the last one before watching the next, sometimes I just can't stand to do that though. Also I wrote that “review” after several glasses of wine so went a bit far by saying parody! Dean has experienced enormous grief in the past, he has lost everyone more than once including Sam and he has in my opinion got way past the shoot first Dean of the early years, he has become a very “nuanced” character and I just don't believe that he would be so focused on Jack is bad. Maybe it is that I just don't like seeing them at totally different ends of the argument and that is colouring my perspective. Thanks though for your very detailed response, it was interesting to read. (I actually mean that so hope it is not coming across as sarcastic!)

[Wynne88]

Quote

  I'm not so sure Dean really holds Jack responsible for Castiel's death. He's an easy target for Dean's anger and I don't doubt that just seeing him brings back traumatic memories for Dean. But, I think he's angry at Mary and Cas. He's angry that their actions led to their deaths.  And with Cas, he's also dealing with his betrayal. The problem is, being angry with people you love who have died sucks. It's so much easier to take it out on someone else. 

Sounds kind of like Dean has got his wires crossed :) 

[Aeryn13]

I disagree because for me that means being mentally deficient. What Dean is doing is what is a pretty normal reaction in real life and even in fiction - how many times do we get the scenario of say a military commander makes a decision and someone under their command dies and the widow/child/family is frosty towards the commander, then at some point comes the big "reveal" of "I`m not really angry at you so much but I`m angry that you are here instead of the person that I love". Yes, it is irrational anger and unfair to the person who lived but from the content I`ve seen noone shamed or blamed the people who felt that way. Or the narrative saying something like "they got their wires crossed". Not once. 

That is IMO what Dean was saying to Sam in the end because Sam just seems to believe he can talk Dean into feeling something he doesn`t want to feel somehow or accept a parental position he never agreed to. Don`t get me wrong, it is fine if Sam wants to accept that, that`s his decision but he has to accept Dean making a different decision. Dean has said so calmly previously. Trying to basically nag him into it will not do anything productive. 

Maybe now that Dean has stated his reason, that he can`t really look at Jack right now because he is too angry that Jack is there and the people Dean loves are not, Sam backs off. He can limit interactions between Dean and Jack and noone is forcing him to not be supportive to Jack himself. Everybody wins. 

[Bessie]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe now that Dean has stated his reason, that he can`t really look at Jack right now because he is too angry that Jack is there and the people Dean loves are not, Sam backs off. He can limit interactions between Dean and Jack and noone is forcing him to not be supportive to Jack himself. Everybody wins. 

Do they? Is Sam separating himself and Jack from Dean really the best thing right now for them?  I'm not saying it's definitely not, but I'm not so sure that Dean going off on his own is the solution. He's just lost everyone he cares about with the exception of Sam. I think he might feel like he's losing Sam too, if Sam were to suggest limited interaction. Which, to me, might just intensify his rage and play into his abandonment issues - issues that Sam is well-versed on.

And maybe Sam doesn't want to be away from Dean right now either.  He sure seems to be acting that way.  If I'm making allowances for people's behavior when they're grieving, I'm including Sam in that. I think the writers have made it too easy to forget that Sam is grieving just as much as Dean.  

I'm not sure what the answer is to this situation. And their grief colors and complicates everything. There is no perfect solution. 

[Aeryn13]

I actually didn`t mean for them to separate. The bunker is big, they can all live there and two people can still avoid each other. It`s not like Dean has to move out. And really, why should he? I simply meant stop forcing a relationship between Dean and Jack. Don`t ask Dean to help parent Jack or pontificate about Jack, just leave the matter alone. IMO Dean would be amenable to the idea as well, I don`t think he`d go randomely to Jack`s room just to yell how much he hates him at every second hour for funsies.

Sam could chat with Jack in either of their respective rooms or somewhere Dean currently is not. Sam can explain to Jack that Dean needs some space right now.

And Sam and Dean can still have their own "me"-time, just not about Jack. Sam can`t make Jack a bonding experience for them if Dean doesn`t want it. That has to come from both or not at all.    

It would be workeable IMO. And noone would have any shouting matches with open doors anymore where Jack just happens to eavesdrop.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[shang yiet]

Quote

If I'm making allowances for people's behavior when they're grieving, I'm including Sam in that. I think the writers have made it too easy to forget that Sam is grieving just as much as Dean.  

I agree. What about what Sam needs to get through his grief?  The sooner and faster Jack can use his powers to help Mary and Cas, the better it will help Sam tackle his feelings and Dean's co-operation is a factor.

Yes, fine, Dean needs Sam to back off. No problem, he is entitled to his feelings about Jack. Perfectly normal reaction and all that. I don't think anybody here is saying otherwise. I don't need Dean and Jack to interact.

But what about Sam's needs? Maybe he wants he and Dean to be on the same page with Jack. Maybe he needs to feel he is not doing it all alone. Maybe he needs the reassurance Dean feels the same way and that he (Sam) is doing the right thing. We can't have Sam with the sole responsibility of babysitting Jack while Dean goes off on cases, saying "Jack's your problem. I don't want to hear about him. Bye!"

Otherwise, I'm fine with Dean leaving Jack alone and totally fine with Sam backing off.

Edited October 29, 2017 by shang yiet

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe he needs the reassurance Dean feels the same way and that he (Sam) is doing the right thing.

Unless he would be content with a lie about that, this just isn`t in the cards right now. If they don`t feel the same way, neither can magically change that because the other wants it to. 

In this episode Sam has shown that he wants Jack as a project, so to speak because he relates to him via his own personal experiences. And maybe it sucks if noone wants to join his project right now but I don`t see why that would then dissuade him from still doing it.  

[shang yiet]

If Sam is to give Dean what he needs, then just maybe Dean can give what Sam needs. Or at least meet him halfway.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If Sam is to give Dean what he needs, then just maybe Dean can give what Sam needs. Or at least meet him halfway.

Which was why I posited the solution above. Dean doesn`t say anything negative to Jack or about Jack or Sam`s "nurture Jack" anymore and Sam backs off on trying to nag him into validating and joining it. For me, that would be a compromise. Both give the other something, but not all, of what they need or want.  

[shang yiet]

If that is exactly what Sam needs, so be it. But I need him to say it and if he wants more than Dean just staying out of the way and keeping his mouth shut, he's entitled to express that need too.

Jack may be a danger to the world, he's not just Sam's personal weekend hobby or project like he's got nothing better to do with his time. So you can't just shove the potential world-ending burden on Sam.

Edited October 29, 2017 by shang yiet

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But I need him to say it and if he wants more than Dean just staying out of the way and keeping his mouth shut, he's entitled to express that need too.

Express it? Sure. Getting it? Not really. And I think a lie would be really counter-productive. "Yeah, Sam, I totally believe in Jack`s goodness" means nothing if the faith behind it is not there. And you can`t magically make that faith appear. Sam has to know that.  

As for Jack being a danger, that is true - well, theoretically, right now he doesn`t appear dangerous - but Dean is not saying to ignore that danger, he just has a different idea what to do about it. Sam just has a very specific idea of his own and that is truly his own thing. So both want to do something about Jack, just not the same thing right now. 

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

If that is exactly what Sam needs, so be it. But I need him to say it and if he wants more than Dean just staying out of the way and keeping his mouth shut, he's entitled to express that need too.

Jack may be a danger to the world, he's not just Sam's personal weekend hobby or project like he's got nothing better to do with his time. So you can't just shove the potential world-ending burden on Sam.

Sam is allowed to need Dean on his side,  but Dean is also allowed to say no. He isn't shoving the burden on Sam, he's disagreeing with the way to handle it (ending Jack). Sam is choosing to take the burden of 'saving' Jack on himself. His choice. Don't worry though, I'm 99.9% certain Dean is going to be the one who falls in line.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Jack may be a danger to the world, he's not just Sam's personal weekend hobby or project like he's got nothing better to do with his time. So you can't just shove the potential world-ending burden on Sam.

Sam took on the burden all on his own. Dean isn't shoving anything on Sam, Dean is just taking on the burden differently than Sam. If Sam wants to save Jack, so be it, more power to him, but he can't expect Dean to want the same thing. Nor can he demand Dean take an active role in it. I think the best Sam can really expect or demand of Dean in this situation is that Dean not interfere.

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam could chat with Jack in either of their respective rooms or somewhere Dean currently is not. Sam can explain to Jack that Dean needs some space right now.

They could definitely try this approach. The big question mark would be Jack. He too is grieving and believes that Dean hates him and wants to kill him. And he's not wrong to feel that way. I'm not so sure he'd be okay with a situation where he lives with Dean, but has to walk on egg shells around him. Avoiding him all the time.  And now he believes that Sam is just using him, so it's not like Sam can act as a buffer.

Now, I don't care about Jack's feelings as much as I do the boys.  I do think the boys need to take them into account when reaching a decision on this situation. Because if he decides he can't handle the tension and stress and loneliness and decides to take off, now they've got a baby nephilim in the wind. Maybe it's worth that risk, but I'm not convinced of that yet. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Bessie

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And now he believes that Sam is just using him, so it's not like Sam can act as a buffer.

In the same way Jack wouldn`t believe Dean if he just suddenly started to be nice and tell him that he has come around to Sam`s way of thinking that Jack can be saved. Now Jack is too naive to immediately think that either Sam has just nagged Dean into saying stuff he doesn`t really mean or b) that Dean has come around on the using him as a rift-opener issue but even he is not naive enough that he wouldn`t question such a momentous change. Right now, the lines are drawn and the best everyone involved could do is back off and cool off for a bit. Keep scratching that itch and it is gonna irritate even more.

Now because the show is the show we will instead get a clunky "parallel" case episode somehow resolving that (not spoilers just speculation based on experience) but alas.

[Bessie]

Has Dean worked on finding a way to kill Jack?  He wasn't shown to be doing that this week, but I didn't watch last week's episode. I'm wondering how committed Dean really is to his position if he isn't even trying to figure out how to kill Jack. 

[Aeryn13]

No, there wasn`t anything visible in this week`s or even last week`s episode. But that has been the same for pretty much every Seasonal problem. They are rarely seen actually researching and working on their Big Bad problems. The best we always get is a line like "well, so far nothing". Going by that writing noone seems really ever committed to stop the various apocalpyses or do something about Bad Guy du Jour. 

Then again, the most proactive things they have ever done in that regard have been guzzling demon blood and aquiring the Mark of Cain to weaponize themselves. Going by that, being proactive seems to be seen as wrong by the narrative.   

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

Has Dean worked on finding a way to kill Jack?  He wasn't shown to be doing that this week, but I didn't watch last week's episode. I'm wondering how committed Dean really is to his position if he isn't even trying to figure out how to kill Jack. 

No, I don't think he's had time. They returned to the bunker at the end of last week's episode and it appears Dean has spent the last couple days before this episode started grieving...then Missouri called. I don't expect to see Dean actively looking for a way to kill the Spawn because I suspect after this episode Sam and Dean will have a sort of holding pattern for a couple episodes that will have Dean standing down from actively trying to kill the Spawn while Sam will stop nagging Dean to save him.

Spoiler

I think it'll be an unspoken compromise between them until Cass returns and things shift gears a bit.

Edited October 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot
Adding spoiler tag...SORRY, forgot it was a spoiler.

[Bessie]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Going by that, being proactive seems to be seen as wrong by the narrative.   

Sam, though, is being proactive about his position. I think this says something about Dean's headspace. I'm not sure exactly what the writers are trying to tell me. But I am getting the vibe that Dean really doesn't want to kill Jack. I think his grief and rage are combining to make him feel fatalistic about this. Or maybe he's just avoiding it. I don't know. But I believe that he is right that they need to find a way to kill Jack if it comes to that, and yet, he's not doing anything to facilitate that  

I could chalk it up to shitty writing, but I think there's more to it. Because you're right, the writers often put the big bad on the back burner. But with Jack, Sam is being proactive while Dean is not. And I'm curious as to why this is how the writers are portraying it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But instead of Dean trying to deal with Jack in the way he thinks he'll have to, he's shown drinking and listening to music. 

Maybe it's just a function of grief, but if Dean truly believes he's going to have to kill Jack eventually, he'd be figuring out a way to do it.  At a minimum, there would be a line tossed out to address it.  I think there might be something else going on with Dean and how he feels. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Bessie

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam, though, is being proactive about his position. 

To be fair, that is easier to do/portray right now. He wants to nurture Jack to goodness and for now basically be nice to him. Jack is right there so he can do that with no problem. 

Dean`s position, they could show with their usual "surfing the internet/looking through old books" stuff. Or the byline of "nothing about Super-Nephilims in those books because Jack is the first one ever". Even if they did that, it would look unbalanced to what Sam can do on his end.     

[MysteryGuest]

Other than Dean's initial attempt to shoot Jack the first time he sees him, he hasn't tried to kill him at all.  From my perspective, that means he is respecting Sam's point of view, and allowing him to do what he wants.  He's agreed to stand down while remaining wary, but he never signed up to play daddy.  I personally think that's more than fair.  

When Dean finds Jack repeatedly stabbing himself, you can see that it was upsetting to him.  He told him to stop and took the knife away.  He didn't encourage him to keep trying.  He did also tell him that if he begins to hurt people, Dean will do whatever he can to stop him.  I think this is more than reasonable.  Sam never asked for clarification on this, he immediately assumed the worst about Dean.  That's not how you win someone over to your side, frankly.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think the fact that they are still only days removed from Jack's birth/Cas & Mary's death is the x-factor here. Both brothers are doing what they do, but to me it seems like one is being portrayed as doing it right, and one is wrong. I'm in agreement with those who have said that painting Jack as this poor, misunderstood woobie is negating the nature vs nurture premise. Right now they make it seem as though Dean wants to murder a child out of vengeance, not eliminate a threat more potentially powerful than Lucifer himself. And Sam just wants to help said poor, orphaned child.

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Other than Dean's initial attempt to shoot Jack the first time he sees him, he hasn't tried to kill him at all.  From my perspective, that means he is respecting Sam's point of view, and allowing him to do what he wants.  He's agreed to stand down while remaining wary, but he never signed up to play daddy.  I personally think that's more than fair.  

When Dean finds Jack repeatedly stabbing himself, you can see that it was upsetting to him.  He told him to stop and took the knife away.  He didn't encourage him to keep trying.  He did also tell him that if he begins to hurt people, Dean will do whatever he can to stop him.  I think this is more than reasonable.  Sam never asked for clarification on this, he immediately assumed the worst about Dean.  That's not how you win someone over to your side, frankly.

Well said. +1 And this is where 13x03 took up (since they are still talking days), so Sam being all shocked that Dean is WTF'ing his decision to turn down helping Missouri in favour of Dean helping him train Jack is disingenuous at best. He knew where Dean stood and still assumed he'd be okay with that, then acted annoyed when he wasn't.

Edited October 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

17 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Maybe it's just a function of grief, but if Dean truly believes he's going to have to kill Jack eventually, he'd be figuring out a way to do it.  At a minimum, there would be a line tossed out to address it.  I think there might be something else going on with Dean and how he feels. 

Dean is obviously grieving the loss of his mother and Cas, but I also have to think he's realizing just how truly screwed they are.  While he knows he might have to destroy Jack to save the world, he has no clue how to go about that.  They couldn't get rid of Lucifer, and that was with the help of Cas, Crowley and Rowena...all of whom are now dead.  Knowing that you're the one ultimately responsible for saving the world, and actually being able to come up with a plan are two different things.  At this point, I doubt he'd even know where to begin.

[Bessie]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Even if they did that, it would look unbalanced to what Sam can do on his end.     

I’m not really talking about balance. And I know I'm not expressing it well. But I think Dean is not comfortable with his own position in this situation. A position, by the way, that I think is correct. There’s a deeper level to what’s going on with him. IMO

[Aeryn13]

Quote

There’s a deeper level to what’s going on with him. IMO

I think the episode or rather he himself came right out and said it at the end. He is angry that Jack is there instead of Cas and Mary. Because the latter are two people he cares about and Jack, he does not. If Mary and Casn AND Jack were around, it would be different.

On the other hand he also, going by their experiences, feels pessimistic about Jack`s odds in turning out goodly-good. Now that feeling is heightened by the recent loss aka things have turned out badly in recent days. But it exists separately from his grief. Like, if he didn`t have anything to grieve, he could still feel pessimistic about Jack. Just maybe not too much.

To me, it was pretty straightforward.      

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Knowing that you're the one ultimately responsible for saving the world...

He may think he is, but in reality he’s not. Maybe he needs to come to terms with that and it’s part of his ambiguity toward his role (based on his own views) as the one who has to be prepared to kill jack. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by Bessie

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

He may think he is, but in reality he’s not. Maybe he needs to come to terms with that and it’s part of his ambiguity toward his role as the one who has to be prepared to kill jack. 

Dean is obviously someone who's always felt responsible for others...Sam, his dad, etc., but when literally God tells you the world has you to keep it safe, that's a pretty big damn burden.  If he's feeling a bit overwhelmed, I'm going to cut him some slack.

[Pondlass1]

I'm just happy Dean's finally back to being a badass  this season, although I'm a bit miffed he would have been so easily taken out and killed by a wraith of things!!  I mean.... this is Dean Fucking Winchester... does this writer have a clue what this guy has done!!!??

Patience's visions are not particularly efficient - why didn't she envision herself being kidnapped in the first place?  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

If that is exactly what Sam needs, so be it. But I need him to say it and if he wants more than Dean just staying out of the way and keeping his mouth shut, he's entitled to express that need too.

Jack may be a danger to the world, he's not just Sam's personal weekend hobby or project like he's got nothing better to do with his time. So you can't just shove the potential world-ending burden on Sam.

Dean's solution to the potential world ending burden was to kill him at the lake house. Sam stopped Dean from doing that. It soon became obvious to both of them that Jack can't be killed easily, if at all. Dean hasn't been show actively looking for a way to kill Jack even if he does go dark side, nor has Sam.  Dean is under no obligation to participate in  trying to train Jack to use his powers nor to believe in Jack's goodness. Likewise, Sam is under no obligation to find a way to kill Jack if he thinks there is goodness in Jack.

The worst part of all this manufactured inorganic "argument" is that there is a potential solution already on the table that Sam already found in s12 and the frakking writers/showrunners  just conveniently ignore for the sake of angst and plot and stupidity and that was to remove Jack's grace.

It would show that Sam wants Jack alive for Jack's own sake and not for what Jack can do for Sam. It would not require Dean to kill Jack. Most importantly they had AGREED together was worth a try. Kelly stopped it. And now that Kelly is dead and Jack apparently doesn't want to  be bad there is literally no reason other than plot for Sam to not offer this to Jack, who might be happy to try if it gives him a chance to be free of the nature part of Lucifer. Maybe it won't work but they should be trying it. So why isn't it being presented to Jack other than Sam wanting him to open a rift?

And it's even more strange because Sam seemed to have accepted that "Mom took that risk", so he obviously realized that she might not come back and he seemed kind of okay with it in that argument.

And to make it all worse and just another reason why I hate this plotline is that neither Sam nor Dean is like " Um, if Jack opens a rift then that means Lucifer can come through too. AND THAT IS A BAD THING, you numbnut writers. JEEZ.....

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I’m not really talking about balance. And I know I'm not expressing it well. But I think Dean is not comfortable with his own position in this situation. A position, by the way, that I think is correct. There’s a deeper level to what’s going on with him. IMO

I agree, I don't think Dean wants to kill the Spawn, bur feels like it will come down to him needing to so he's preparing himself by telling himself Jack is the literal spawn of Satan and trying to keep Jack at a distance and not get attached so that if it does come down to it he'll be able to pull the trigger...so to speak. 

What I find interesting here is, this is probably how John felt about Sam at times. He wouldn't have wanted to do it, but I think part of his butting heads with Sam was John trying to put up walls between him and Sam so if it came down to it, he might be more able to kill Sam. The big difference between John and Dean with regards to saving Sam, Dean didn't allow himself to see Sam as bad so when it came down to killing him or saving him, Dean chose to save him.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He may think he is, but in reality he’s not. Maybe he needs to come to terms with that and it’s part of his ambiguity toward his role (based on his own views) as the one who has to be prepared to kill jack. 

I don`t so much think he believes himself the one chosen for this mission any more than Sam thinks he has been chosen for the "save Jack" mission. Theoretically there are millions of people on the planet who could attempt either one. Just realistically, the Winchesters stumbled onto Jack first, they have at least a bit of the necessary knowledge and experience to handle this. 

Dean saying "I`ll be the one do kill you" to Jack was somewhat of an acknowledgment of that. I mean, he can`t realistically make that promise, something could always change.    

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree, I don't think Dean wants to kill the Spawn, bur feels like it will come down to him needing to so he's preparing himself by telling himself Jack is the literal spawn of Satan and trying to keep Jack at a distance and not get attached so that if it does come down to it he'll be able to pull the trigger...so to speak. 

What I find interesting here is, this is probably how John felt about Sam at times. He wouldn't have wanted to do it, but I think part of his butting heads with Sam was John trying to put up walls between him and Sam so if it came down to it, he might be more able to kill Sam. The big difference between John and Dean with regards to saving Sam, Dean didn't allow himself to see Sam as bad so when it came down to killing him or saving him, Dean chose to save him.

I can see the parallels, but for me the big difference is that Sam was John's (and Dean's) blood. Killing your son/brother/human shouldn't carry the same moral weight as literal spawn of Lucifer. Sam beating Dean up with this IMO false equivalency is just not fair.

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

 

What I find interesting here is, this is probably how John felt about Sam at times.

That’s....fascinating.  I hadn’t thought of that, but it makes sense. 

[Wynne88]

Quote

 Sam never asked for clarification on this, he immediately assumed the worst about Dean.  

Actually, he did.  He told Dean that Jack said Dean told him he would kill him, and Dean said 'It wasn't exactly like that.'  Sam replied 'Then how was it?' which is when Dean really let loose on how he feels.  Doesn't change anything, just thought I'd mention it.

Quote

Standing up for himself generally winds up in Dean apologizing, but damn it was good to watch. And even angry Sam was a refreshing change from zen/dour/whispery Sam. I loved it.

I agree.  It was good to see Dean being absolutely honest and unapologetic about his position, and equally nice to have Sam come back at him without backing down or going off in a sulk.  Wouldn't want it to drag on, but hopefully they can find some common ground via compromise instead of total surrender.  

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's solution to the potential world ending burden was to kill him at the lake house. Sam stopped Dean from doing that. It soon became obvious to both of them that Jack can't be killed easily, if at all. Dean hasn't been show actively looking for a way to kill Jack even if he does go dark side, nor has Sam.  Dean is under no obligation to participate in  trying to train Jack to use his powers nor to believe in Jack's goodness. Likewise, Sam is under no obligation to find a way to kill Jack if he thinks there is goodness in Jack.

The worst part of all this manufactured inorganic "argument" is that there is a potential solution already on the table that Sam already found in s12 and the frakking writers/showrunners  just conveniently ignore for the sake of angst and plot and stupidity and that was to remove Jack's grace.

It would show that Sam wants Jack alive for Jack's own sake and not for what Jack can do for Sam. It would not require Dean to kill Jack. Most importantly they had AGREED together was worth a try. Kelly stopped it. And now that Kelly is dead and Jack apparently doesn't want to  be bad there is literally no reason other than plot for Sam to not offer this to Jack, who might be happy to try if it gives him a chance to be free of the nature part of Lucifer. Maybe it won't work but they should be trying it. So why isn't it being presented to Jack other than Sam wanting him to open a rift?

And it's even more strange because Sam seemed to have accepted that "Mom took that risk", so he obviously realized that she might not come back and he seemed kind of okay with it in that argument.

And to make it all worse and just another reason why I hate this plotline is that neither Sam nor Dean is like " Um, if Jack opens a rift then that means Lucifer can come through too. AND THAT IS A BAD THING, you numbnut writers. JEEZ.....

I forgot about the grace removal thing myself - a great point! And yeah, every time Sam talks about or hints at opening the rift, I want to scream WHAT ABOUT LUCIFER??!!! And what about respecting choices (Mary's) and letting her die for the greater good of closing the gates of hell keeping Lucifer locked away. I think it's a pretty big disservice to Sam's character to have him considering this to be an okay thing.

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

Actually, he did.  He told Dean that Jack said Dean told him he would kill him, and Dean said 'It wasn't exactly like that.'  Sam replied 'Then how was it?' which is when Dean really let loose on how he feels.  Doesn't change anything, just thought I'd mention it.

 

I think the point was he sat there and let his anger at Dean build believing what Jack said without question. He was totally waiting to pounce on Dean the moment he came back.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can see the parallels, but for me the big difference is that Sam was John's (and Dean's) blood. Killing your son/brother/human shouldn't carry the same moral weight as literal spawn of Lucifer. Sam beating Dean up with this IMO false equivalency is just not fair.

It's fucking ridiculous writing IMO. It's stupid. Especially when there is an answer to be tried by removing Jack's grace.

Honestly at this point, the only interesting outcome for this stupid ass plotline for me is for Jack to go darkside for a bit before Castiel comes back and saves him. 

And for it to be revealed that Lucifer KNEW somehow that Sam would have an affinity for Jack and that he wouldn't be able to kill Jack. and that Sam would use Jack as a can opener to get Mary. IMO, that's why Lucifer dragged Mary into the AU.

Yes it would suck for Sam to be manipulated again by Lucifer but JFC it would make sense. It would make Lucifer scary again to Sam and Dean. It would give Dean impetus to kill Lucifer.

Have I said how much I hate this stupid plotline?

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 I think it's a pretty big disservice to Sam's character to have him considering this to be an okay thing.

In the end, it may be. Generally, sam is wrong when he and Dean disagree. We’ll see. 

Right now I’m not interested in right and wrong. Dean is who I’m finding interesting and not because he may be right in the end. 

I’m fascinated by where he is right now. And it isn’t good.

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And for it to be revealed that Lucifer KNEW somehow that Sam would have an affinity for Jack and that he wouldn't be able to kill Jack. and that Sam would use Jack as a can opener to get Mary. IMO, that's why Lucifer dragged Mary into the AU.

Yes it would suck for Sam to be manipulated again by Lucifer but JFC it would make sense. It would make Lucifer scary again to Sam and Dean. It would give Dean impetus to kill Lucifer.

Sounds about right. This will probably happen. But what does it have to do with this episode?

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can see the parallels, but for me the big difference is that Sam was John's (and Dean's) blood. Killing your son/brother/human shouldn't carry the same moral weight as literal spawn of Lucifer. Sam beating Dean up with this IMO false equivalency is just not fair.

Well, I never suggested it was fair. Nothing in life is fair. But, I will say that I think killing anyone should carry the same moral weight. I don't care who their parents are whether they are my own family, that decision should never be considered lightly.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I never suggested it was fair. Nothing in life is fair. But, I will say that I think killing anyone should carry the same moral weight. I don't care who their parents are whether they are my own family, that decision should never be considered lightly.

Humans, yes, but Jack is not a human, despite the show's attempt to portray him as one. Yes, he had a human mother, but his conception created a new kind of being, not a human. Much like Dean was Emma's father, but the being they created wasn't a human. IMO of course.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Bessie said:

Sounds about right. This will probably happen. But what does it have to do with this episode?

Because this episode is referring to Sam using Jack to open a rift to the AU and Mary and Lucifer are involved.

[catrox14]

Just now, Bessie said:

Ah, okay. Bitch away!

 

26 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Actually, he did.  He told Dean that Jack said Dean told him he would kill him, and Dean said 'It wasn't exactly like that.'  Sam replied 'Then how was it?' which is when Dean really let loose on how he feels.  Doesn't change anything, just thought I'd mention it.

. Again, TO ME that's a writing choice that doesn't give either one the chance to actually explain their logical just to set up a big fight that is largely a false equivalency.

Dean had no good reason to not tell Sam that he didn't threaten to kill Jack in a cavalier manner. It doesn't give Dean the chance to tell Sam that he stopped Jack from stabbing himself repeatedly. It doesn't give Dean the chance to tell Sam that he told him that IF IF IF he goes dark side he'll kill him.

Why? What's the point in Dean not saying that? He still could have said his whole thing about how he can't look at him for all the reasons, but that he also isn't actively seeking to murder him without him being an imminent threat right now. 

It's crap writing IMO that doesn't give Sam the opportunity to make it about Jack. I honestly don't know why Sam thinks by telling Dean that he saved him from demon blood would work because that's not how it really went down at all.  If anything it kind of came across as a manipulation by Sam to make Dean help him save Jack. But what really baffles me, is why is Sam looking for Dean's help at all in this endeavor? Does he not think he can do it?

Sam's logic with trying to get Dean to side with him and join that project...is...not well though out.

[shang yiet]

Sure, both Sam and Dean can express their feelings and needs to each other but neither are obliged to say yes. Neither are obliged to obey each other. They can both stand their ground.

But I am tired of this manufactured drama too and I just want the arguments to end. I am actually not that invested in Jack's goodness. It makes more sense for him to go dark eventually but maybe he can be won over by Sam in the end.

Quote

 

And for it to be revealed that Lucifer KNEW somehow that Sam would have an affinity for Jack and that he wouldn't be able to kill Jack. and that Sam would use Jack as a can opener to get Mary. IMO, that's why Lucifer dragged Mary into the AU.

Yes it would suck for Sam to be manipulated again by Lucifer but JFC it would make sense. It would make Lucifer scary again to Sam and Dean. It would give Dean impetus to kill Lucifer.

 

If anyone should kill Lucifer, it has to be Sam. 

Edited October 29, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

If anyone should kill Lucifer, it has to be Sam. 

Either one. Dean has reason to kill Lucifer because he murdered Cas. Sam has reason to murder him because many fold. Maybe they can just do it together. 

You know I do wonder though, and this would be a good twist, just speculation on my part, is MAYBE Sam is trying to get Jack to use his powers so he can kill Lucifer. Actually, Sam should make THAT his argument for Dean helping him with Jack. That they power him up to kill Lucifer once and for all. Then Dean would have a real conundrum.