S07.E04: Beauty

[KingOfHearts]

25 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

He looked adult. But they were writing him like he was ten. 

Which is funny, because Belle is the opposite - she's written as an adult, but dressed like she's ten.

Edited October 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Not possible.  We actually saw her chasing the White Rabbit when Rumpel interrupted by stepping through the portal to her realm when he did.  It's how he and this particular Alice met. She can't be the White Rabbit in Storybrooke Hyperion Heights, because she and the White Rabbit were clearly two separate and distinct entities in the other realm.

She was chasing "a" white bunny rabbit.  That's not saying it was "the" White Rabbit.  Oh, I know she's probably not.  I just think it'd be a cool twist if she actually was instead of just being Alice - that'd give her an extra reason for the crazy, I think.  In the original story (or even the Disney animated film) Alice wasn't 'mad' whereas the Rabbit was a little off.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

She was chasing "a" white bunny rabbit.  That's not saying it was "the" White Rabbit.  Oh, I know she's probably not.  I just think it'd be a cool twist if she actually was instead of just being Alice - that'd give her an extra reason for the crazy, I think.  In the original story (or even the Disney animated film) Alice wasn't 'mad' whereas the Rabbit was a little off.

That was actually the March Hare.  The White Rabbit was just a little anal-retentive/borderline obsessive-compulsive about punctuality.  Then again, I would be, too, if I worked for someone as bad-tempered as the Queen of Hearts!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

The White Rabbit was just a little anal-retentive/borderline obsessive-compulsive about punctuality.

Yeah, well, I consider that a little off too! :)

So maybe Alice was chasing the March Hare when Rumple popped in and not the White Rabbit, which means that she could still be the White Rabbit, huh?  ;)

ETA: or vice versa, and she could actually be the March Hare.

Edited October 29, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
either or!

[Camera One]

In the original story, everyone in Wonderland was a little off.  It seems like A&E were trying to embody all the characters in Wonderland within the character of Alice this time 'round. 

So now we know Alice is Weaver's informant.  I don't understand why she needed to report every random person who enters Hyperion Heights like she did in the Season 7 premiere.  

I know Rogers was being kind, but he didn't seem at all fazed or surprised at the cover-up over who shot Weaver.  It's not that I want Alice in prison, but if Roger's fake identity is an Eagle Scout cop, one would expert him to be at least a little conflicted.  

Edited October 29, 2017 by Camera One

[jzygayle]

I was doing dishes while OUAT was on, so was more than halfway through the episode before I realized it wasn't "Edge of Ralph" ("Edge of Realms").  I blame the cats; they agreed it was "Edge of Ralph"

I prefer Henry with pretty much everyone else on the show--including Rumple--than with Jacinda.  But I do approve of him with Ivy.  And I loved Alice.

Please please PLEASE allow us the payoff of Regina going fucking medieval on Victoria's ass.  Because there's no way Regina should be subordinate to such a namby pamby "evil" force.  I won't even agree that takes away Regina's redemption--it anything it would solidify it for me.

Edited October 29, 2017 by jzygayle

[Arnella]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Joke's on us.  A&E's goal was probably to force us to admit that Regina and Rumple are our favorite characters on a show, and now they pretty much are!

Yeessss, I guess you are right but only because the other characters are SO dull and badly written, and in some cases, badly acted (Murderella).  Robert and Lana (both very good actors to start) have always done the best they could with they've been given and now have the most experience making the best of it.  

However, Regina doing the Saint Roni bit is making me a bit more nauseous every scene.  

As much as I have despised Rumbelle and the appalling acting of Emilie, I am a sucker for Robert playing romantic husband (and NO abusive manipulation in sight!) in this episode.  And as much as I disagree with Rumple having a "pure heart" {gag}, I am really attracted to this corrupt cop who is really a good guy looking out for the vulnerable CI.

Damn it show!  As soon as I think I'm done forever, you use Robert Carlyle to drag me back in!!

[CCTC]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Really?  I'm not even being snarky here, because when I watched that scene, all I could see was the acting.  It looked like Robert was trying very hard

Yes - it is possible I gave him too much credit because it looked like he was trying for once.  Unpopular opinion, as good of an actor as he is, I feel like he has been sleepwalking through this role for awhile.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

How old was Gideon supposed to be when he ran over the bridge? 

It was after ten years of exploring the realms after leaving Storybrooke.

At first I thought he was Giles Matthey in that scene, but rewatching it I saw that it was actually an uncredited kid running too fast to be seen clearly.

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

He looked adult. But they were writing him like he was ten. 

See above.

[legaleagle53]

Part of the problem, I think, is that Belle was shown to be aging far too rapidly relative to Gideon. If we accept that Belle was around 30 when she had Gideon, ten years later, she would only look to be about 40 (and really not that much different than she did at 30), and when Gideon left home at 18 to make his way in the realms (with her blessing, naturally), she would at most be 48 and maybe THEN just starting to show a little gray. Yet when Gideon returns home for a visit a few years later, she looks as though she's aged 25 years beyond that, and by the time she dies, she appears to be in her late 80s -- yet when Gideon comes home to help Rumpel bury her, Gideon himself doesn't look a day over 30!  There's just no way to logically have Belle age more than 50 years to Gideon's 30.

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, during their travels, Rumbelle made the mistake of visiting The Soap Opera Land where unpredictable SORAS occurs (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome).

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Part of the problem, I think, is that Belle was shown to be aging far too rapidly relative to Gideon. If we accept that Belle was around 30 when she had Gideon, ten years later, she would only look to be about 40 (and really not that much different than she did at 30), and when Gideon left home at 18 to make his way in the realms (with her blessing, naturally), she would at most be 48 and maybe THEN just starting to show a little gray. Yet when Gideon returns home for a visit a few years later, she looks as though she's aged 25 years beyond that, and by the time she dies, she appears to be in her late 80s -- yet when Gideon comes home to help Rumpel bury her, Gideon himself doesn't look a day over 30!  There's just no way to logically have Belle age more than 50 years to Gideon's 30.

From the time they went to Edge of Realms they were doing the time is wonky thing.  If I think of it like a bubble around Alaska where time moves and people age but the days are longer while outside the bubble time mover slower then I can hand wave from when Gideon is eighteen to Belle's death.

What bugged me was the use of Belle's grey hair to show the passage of time and get across Rumple's reasons for wanting to be mortal.  It was too heavy handed.  And that was worse when Rumple went back after Belle's death to Henry's first meeting with Cinderella, without time travel,  a time when Regina, Hook, and Emma hadn't seemed to age a day although Henry had.

[KingOfHearts]

Belle's white streaks immediately gave me bad flashbacks of Merida's mother's wig in 5x09.

Edited October 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Belle's white streaks immediately gave me bad flashbacks of Merida's mother's wig in 5x09.

I was trying to think where I had seen it before, and that was it!  I was also thinking Count Dracula's wife and Morticia in "The Addams Family" as Belle grew older.

Quote

From the time they went to Edge of Realms they were doing the time is wonky thing.  If I think of it like a bubble around Alaska where time moves and people age but the days are longer while outside the bubble time mover slower then I can hand wave from when Gideon is eighteen to Belle's death.

Yes, I agree.  The Edge of Realms was supposed to be a place where eternity was "the blink of an eye back home".  So I suppose it can be explained why Gideon would visit looking exactly the same while Belle aged.   Rumple said the rules of time and space don't apply, so that was basically the fudge factor of whatever.

Quote

 And that was worse when Rumple went back after Belle's death to Henry's first meeting with Cinderella, without time travel,  a time when Regina, Hook, and Emma hadn't seemed to age a day although Henry had.

I think Rumple would have had to have travelled back in time.  He said, "It's time for me to leave this realm and go to the moment where this Guardian is waiting for me."

If Rumple and Belle went to the End of Realms when Gideon was 18 years old, the events of Episode 2 where Regina and Whook joined Henry would have already happened by the time Gideon went off to college.  One could argue that the whole Hyperion Heights Curse would already be in effect by that point.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yes, I agree.  The Edge of Realms was supposed to be a place where eternity was "the blink of an eye back home".  So I suppose it can be explained why Gideon would visit looking exactly the same while Belle aged.   Rumple said the rules of time and space don't apply.

Quote

I think Rumple would have had to have travelled back in time.  He said, "It's time for me to leave this realm and go to the moment where this Guardian is waiting for me."

That sounds an awful lot like the Nexus from Star Trek: Generations. There was no time there, and if you left it, you could go to any place or time in history.

[Camera One]

Quote

BELLE: This scroll describes a fairy prophecy about the Dark One.

And and it says, "When the Dark One finds Eternal Love at the Sun's brightest set where time stops, the path will appear to where the darkness shall rest. 

Who the hell is writing these fairy prophecies?  From what we've seen fairies don't have prophetic powers.  

I'm going to fanwank that Blue made it up and gave it to Belle and told her to lie to Rumple so she could screw him over once and for all and get rid of him forever.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think Rumple would have had to have travelled back in time.  He said, "It's time for me to leave this realm and go to the moment where this Guardian is waiting for me."

If Rumple and Belle went to the End of Realms when Gideon was 18 years old, the events of Episode 2 where Regina and Whook joined Henry would have already happened by the time Gideon went off to college.  One could argue that the whole Hyperion Heights Curse would already be in effect by that point.

Or they could explain it away by saying the Rumbelle family were always traveling to realms where Time runs differently, and Gideon's actually aged up to 20 or whatever age he is supposed to be when Belle died. This mess is too complicated. 

[ParadoxLost]

28 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think Rumple would have had to have travelled back in time.  He said, "It's time for me to leave this realm and go to the moment where this Guardian is waiting for me."

I know that realm crossing beans are everywhere now but time travel spells were supposed to be such a BFD that you had to murder a baby or something (I forget)  to cast them. 

[Camera One]

Looking back, I think this episode is like a lot of the Rumbelle episodes for me.  On first watch, the actors do keep me engaged, but when I think back on it, I don't think I would want to watch it again.  

When I think about this storyline of Rumple finally being willing to give up his immortality and and his power, and to become mortal, I wish they could have done it in Season 6.  This was the type of storyline you leave for the final season.  Not what we saw in Season 6,  which was (for the fifth time) Rumple being willing to let many people die to hold on to his power and to protect his own kin and Belle being expected to accept it.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

From the time they went to Edge of Realms they were doing the time is wonky thing.  If I think of it like a bubble around Alaska where time moves and people age but the days are longer while outside the bubble time mover slower then I can hand wave from when Gideon is eighteen to Belle's death.

Time was wonky before they went to the Edge of Realms. It's hard to figure out how old Gideon is supposed to be, since it's the same actor who was playing a Gideon who'd spent 28 years in the Black Fairy's realm and they've done nothing to change his appearance, but let's just say that he's 17-18 when he's accepted to the magic university, and it was after this that his parents moved to the Edge of Realms. Gideon was born when Henry was 14 (forgetting for the moment that Henry's age doesn't work in seasons 4-6, just going with what they stated). Then Gideon's 17-18 when his parents go to the Edge of Realms. We don't know how many years pass for Gideon while they're there and he's at school. Belle dies, and Rumple lands in Enchanted Forest II, where Henry is in his early 20s. Henry's about the same age as Gideon, in spite of being 14 years older. Meanwhile, none of the adults (other than Belle) have aged a moment.

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

I know Rogers was being kind, but he didn't seem at all fazed or surprised at the cover-up over who shot Weaver.  It's not that I want Alice in prison, but if Roger's fake identity is an Eagle Scout cop, one would expert him to be at least a little conflicted.  

It depends on which episode we're in. In episode one, he's an Eagle Scout. In episode two, he's so ambitious that he would supposedly do anything for the promotion, and so his integrity has to be tested. Who knows what he was supposed to be in this episode. I think he's supposed to be kind and empathetic here. He was always opposed to Weaver doing what Victoria wanted with Tilly and had been urging him to help her, instead, so maybe he took her shooting Weaver as something Weaver had coming to him and that she didn't deserve to be punished. I guess that could still be Eagle Scout, if it's more about him being kind and fair rather than being strict about rules.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It depends on which episode we're in. In episode one, he's an Eagle Scout. In episode two, he's so ambitious that he would supposedly do anything for the promotion, and so his integrity has to be tested. Who knows what he was supposed to be in this episode. I think he's supposed to be kind and empathetic here. He was always opposed to Weaver doing what Victoria wanted with Tilly and had been urging him to help her, instead, so maybe he took her shooting Weaver as something Weaver had coming to him and that she didn't deserve to be punished. I guess that could still be Eagle Scout, if it's more about him being kind and fair rather than being strict about rules.

If he has the download of a real cop and we're in "real world Seattle", I think falsifying a police report would be a huge deal.  It goes far beyond being strict about rules.  Tilly was off her meds, so the justice system would take that into account.  This cover-up would risk his position and his ability to find that lost girl.  

[CCTC]

Plus, you think he would want Tilly in custody getting treatment and the help he would think she needs.  If someone shoots someone, simply going back on their pills is not going to make them sane and safe to themselves or others.  Eagle Scout Rodgers would think it would be best for Tilly herself to receive treatment that is more than unsupervised pill taking.  

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

If he has the download of a real cop and we're in "real world Seattle", I think falsifying a police report would be a huge deal.  It goes far beyond being strict about rules.  Tilly was off her meds, so the justice system would take that into account.  This cover-up would risk his position and his ability to find that lost girl.  

On the other hand, he might see her as a possible lead on Victoria -- why was she bothering Victoria in the first place, why didn't Victoria just press charges against her like most other assault victims would have instead of digging into her medical history and insisting that a detective force her to take her medication? Rogers sees Victoria as his key to finding that missing girl, and if there's any of Hook leaking through, he'd have that pragmatism and that obsessive focus. He's more likely to get something useful out of Tilly by keeping her out of an institution and/or jail. But being Rogers as well and having WHook's weakness for lost girls, he seems to be taking an interest in her out of kindness.

And I have probably now put a lot more thought into it than the writers did.

[Camera One]

That is believable, but regardless, if they're trying to explore two personalities (real world vs. fairytale past) in flux, we should have seen more internal conflict.  But this is Weaver's episode, so we can't have too many characters de-cardboard themselves or it would be too distracting.

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

If he has the download of a real cop and we're in "real world Seattle", I think falsifying a police report would be a huge deal.  It goes far beyond being strict about rules.  Tilly was off her meds, so the justice system would take that into account.  This cover-up would risk his position and his ability to find that lost girl.  

It didn't even occur to me to think deeply about this.  I just shrugged it off as it being natural for WHook to protect a girl that shot Rumple.

Had it been anyone else that was shot, I think he wouldn't have risked a cover-up.

I think a lot of that comes from a sense that the motivations and (supposed) character growth from the flashbacks somehow remained intact despite the curse.  Any version of Hook is always going to instinctively understand someone being driven to shoot any version of Rumple.

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

But this is Weaver's episode, so we can't have too many characters de-cardboard themselves or it would be too distracting.

That's the problem. We're not getting the logical next installment in an ongoing story, in which all the characters are progressing in their arcs. We're getting the Weaver episode. Everyone else just kind of floats around in the background. We just needed Rogers to pop in for the end, to either set up the fact that Alice/Tilly is his long-lost daughter or to set up the fakeout that she might be, and that doesn't have to have anything to do with the character that's been established for him. Not that there really has been a character established for him (see the Eagle Scout/so ambitious he needs his integrity tested issue).

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think Rumple would have had to have travelled back in time.  He said, "It's time for me to leave this realm and go to the moment where this Guardian is waiting for me."

Which is against the normal rules of magic (Zelena had to go to great lengths to make it happen). If it's possible because he was at the Edge of Realms, or because he now has the powers of all previous Dark Ones, they need to say that.

[Camera One]

Yes, and what about Gideon?  He stayed behind, just because?

[twoods]

I might keep watching if Henry dumps sad sack Jacinda for Ivy. That actress has chemistry with most of her male costars (I kept forgetting who to root for in Reign because she was great with all of them). 

 

I hope Rumple finds out soon so his memories come back and he can kill Victoria already.

Edited October 30, 2017 by twoods

[Souris]

17 hours ago, CCTC said:

Yes - it is possible I gave him too much credit because it looked like he was trying for once.  Unpopular opinion, as good of an actor as he is, I feel like he has been sleepwalking through this role for awhile.

It must be VERY hard not to sleepwalk through the dreck they're given. I'm sure he's tired of trying to mentally contort his character's motivations to fit whatever the script is having him do. At some point, it must seem pointless to make the effort, since it's not going to make sense anyway. 

I think the same thing befell Ginny -- we know she had to work really hard to come up with a reason to make sense of why Snow would encourage Regina to sex up Robin when he was married to who they thought was Marian.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Souris
Prepositions are important

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

Yes, and what about Gideon?  He stayed behind, just because?

He likely went back to Magic University to get a PhD. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

I know he's kind of a jerk, but poor Belle's dad. He never got to see his daughter again it seemed like. He could be still kicking in Storybrooke for all we know.

[CinAZ]

Well, just watched this episode. I am not sure what it says about this show when a RumBelle episode was the best so far. I think what made it enjoyable was it did not focus on Jacinda/Cinderella.  

Ivy has FAR more chemistry with Henry. Can we just somehow make her his Happily Ever After?

I thought the Belle farewell scene was done as well as could be expected.  If the show goes on long enough, they left an opening for her to appear again by her telling Rumple that he could ‘find her again’.

It was kind of sad when Tilly/Alice dropped the teacup. Poor Chip.

From the previews it looks like Regina finds a picture of her and Henry. (How do these people carry ‘stuff’ in between realms??) 

It also looks like next week will be a Tiana episode. So hopefully little Jacinda.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

31 minutes ago, CinAZ said:

t was kind of sad when Tilly/Alice dropped the teacup. Poor Chip.

Time for his sun to set, too. Unless Rumple fixes him (again) once magic comes to Hyperion Heights.

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

I know he's kind of a jerk, but poor Belle's dad. He never got to see his daughter again it seemed like. He could be still kicking in Storybrooke for all we know.

True. And we never even got to see him with his baby grandson.

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Which is against the normal rules of magic (Zelena had to go to great lengths to make it happen). If it's possible because he was at the Edge of Realms, or because he now has the powers of all previous Dark Ones, they need to say that.

Maybe he didn't technically travel in time because the Edge of Realms was a kind of bubble outside time, so he just returned to the time he left normal time. But then there's the Gideon issue, where he was at least in his late teens when Rumple and Belle left normal time, and yet Rumple returns to normal time when Henry is probably in his early 20s and is supposedly 14 years older than Gideon.

The timelines for this season don't really bear thinking about.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think what made it enjoyable was it did not focus on Jacinda/Cinderella.  

Bingo. The present day focused on Alice and Ivy, who are somewhat likable. 7x02 would have been better if the present wasn't about Victoria's frame job and Weaver holding Rogers' hand through dirty work. While Rogers had the dilemma, he was very passive up until he decided not to frame Jacinda. In this episode, Ivy had to search for Lucy and Alice was hellbent on revealing the truth to Weaver. Overall it helped that 7x04 was very goal-oriented in the present and had the interesting characters actually doing stuff. 

[tennisgurl]

That one streak of grey hair in Bells hair Belle had when Gideon announced he had been accepted into Hogwarts looked like it was a clip on Belle decided to wear to a costume party. Honestly. 

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

That one streak of grey hair in Bells hair Belle had when Gideon announced he had been accepted into Hogwarts looked like it was a clip on Belle decided to wear to a costume party. Honestly. 

She accidentally ate one of Elsa's enchanted snowcones.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

Around age 38 she developed one long streak of grey hair that she always tried to blend into the rest of her hair.

The problem is Belle should be a decade younger than Emilie de Ravin.

16 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

IPerhaps it would have been more effective to show somehow that he wasn't seeing her as aging.

Like the Doctor and Clara in "Last Christmas".

[jhlipton]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:16 PM, KingOfHearts said:

So Belle decided to inconvenience Rumple by building the house just so he wouldn't have to use his Dagger. What's so wrong about using magic again?

"Magic has consequences" doncha know?  Unless  it doesn't.

 

On 10/27/2017 at 9:24 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I can't imagine the reasoning will be very good.

Has it ever???

On 10/28/2017 at 8:32 AM, CCTC said:

I would imagine if you spent time with them during their peaceful bliss they would have been very dull and annoying to be around.

I don't think they avoided other people -- other people avoided them!

On 10/28/2017 at 11:14 AM, Shanna Marie said:

Yes, but they had someone who is a writer saying it. You can use non-standard or non-proper English when it fits the character, but most novelists probably squirmed or shouted back at the TV when Henry said it. A novelist isn't going to talk that way.

This isn't a novelist -- this is Henry...

On 10/29/2017 at 0:59 PM, Camera One said:

Unfortunately, during their travels, Rumbelle made the mistake of visiting The Soap Opera Land where unpredictable SORAS occurs (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome).

I thought SORAS only affected those under the age of 5 or so.

===========================================

ETA: I find it amusing that posters (including myself) like Ivy so much more than Jacinda, considering how obnoxious and self-centered she's portrayed.  Her first line is to call Jocinda "trash"!

Edited November 1, 2017 by jhlipton
Ivy rules

[MadMan]

Why does it seem like Rumple is talking to a cat?

[tessaray]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I thought SORAS only affected those under the age of 5 or so.

===========================================

ETA: I find it amusing that posters (including myself) like Ivy so much more than Jacinda, considering how obnoxious and self-centered she's portrayed.  Her first line is to call Jocinda "trash"!

Ah, SORAS-ing can happen at any age, even in reverse.  The most common situation I've seen has been the 7 - 10 year old who comes back from an out of town visit as an annoying teenager. 

I think we like Ivy because she has an easy chemistry with Henry.  Their conversation was unforced and natural. And she doesn't like Jacinda, which gives us a lot in common with her. :-) 

[jhlipton]

9 minutes ago, tessaray said:

And she doesn't like Jacinda, which gives us a lot in common with her. :-) 

True dat!

[Camera One]

Henry is just finishing up the blog post on the community garden?  First of all, who would read this blog; secondly, how would this lead to the "defeat" of Victoria, and thirdly, how long does it take to write a simple article about people planting a community garden?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Camera One

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

how long does it take to write a simple article about people planting a community garden?

Well, he forgot to run 'grammar check', so...

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

ETA: I find it amusing that posters (including myself) like Ivy so much more than Jacinda, considering how obnoxious and self-centered she's portrayed.  Her first line is to call Jocinda "trash"!

It's because characters like Ivy are treated like the bitches they are. No one is glorifying her accomplishments or shouting there's good in her heart. She is who she is and the writing doesn't undermine that. Meanwhile, Jacinda is the "hero" who has to make all the right choices. The show is much more self-aware about the former than the latter. Yet, it's kind of funny that Henry says she's probably not as "evil" as Tremaine. I think it's easier to extrapolate that she's working toward her mother's approval, and doesn't really have positive influences in her life. She hasn't done anything particularly sinful, other than be bitchy. Jacinda, however, has attempted to kill two people. No one is going to relate to her. She's this season's version of Woegina.

Edited November 2, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

29 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's because characters like Ivy are treated like the bitches they are. No one is glorifying her accomplishments or shouting there's good in her heart. She is who she is and the writing doesn't undermine that. Meanwhile, Jacinda is the "hero" who has to make all the right choices. The show is much more self-aware about the former than the latter. Yet, it's kind of funny that Henry says she's probably not as "evil" as Tremaine. I think it's easier to extrapolate that she's working toward her mother's approval, and doesn't really have positive influences in her life. She hasn't done anything particularly sinful, other than be bitchy. Jacinda, however, has attempted to kill two people. No one is going to relate to her. She's this season's version of Woegina.

Absolutely.

[CCTC]

I think the actress playing Ivy might have done a better job of showing some subtext of pain and vulnerability beneath her less than stellar attitude.  She came across as being a bit more complex and layered.

[Mitch]

On 10/29/2017 at 2:59 PM, Camera One said:

Unfortunately, during their travels, Rumbelle made the mistake of visiting The Soap Opera Land where unpredictable SORAS occurs (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome).

LOL...In the past, when the show was still entertaining...(really, really dumb but entertaining,) I had wanted them to have Henry fall into a portal, SORAS him and spit him out as an adult! Little did I know they would take me up on that..

[KingOfHearts]

38 minutes ago, CCTC said:

I think the actress playing Ivy might have done a better job of showing some subtext of pain and vulnerability beneath her less than stellar attitude.  She came across as being a bit more complex and layered.

I'm worried that Ivy is going to either die or turn out to be worse than Tremaine. She's only a guest star. I'm sure the writers wanted us to like her in this episode, and even root for her to be with Henry. It all sounds like one of A&E's cheap schemes.