S03.E06: A. Malcolm

[Haleth]

Regarding the actors' looks not matching the characters' ages, I think we have to ignore that they still look young.  If the show continues for several more seasons their aging is going to have to be very subtle as years pass.  (As was Travis Fimmel's in Vikings.)  We'll have to just assume both Claire and Jamie hit the genetic jackpot and will always look 10+ years younger than the characters are supposed to be.

And regarding Claire's carelessness at the brothel, I'll attribute that to her not yet having the 18th c mindset.  She was still thinking in terms of the relative safety of the 20th c-- hanging out with the girls before the shop opened and leaving her door unlocked.  Finding a rapey man in her room will remind her to be more careful.

[GHScorpiosRule]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Gabaldon has described both Claire and Jamie looking younger than their years.  And as @morgan also stated, they’re not that old and aren’t supposed to be decrepit looking! 

And I think they’ve done a good job of making them look older-just from that video @WatchrTina posted-they look like babies!

Edited October 24, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule
because "it" is not the same as "and."

[AD55]

14 hours ago, morgan said:

I am so done with all the griping about the actors and how they haven’t aged then enough.  Maybe I’m just sensitive because my husband and I are the ages Claire and Jamie are supposed to be this season.  I certainly don’t think we look decrepic!  I do see a wide range among our friends of those who look older and younger but my god.  I actually think they have done a great job showing 40-something Claire and Jamie!  

Think of some famous actors like Cate Blanchette, Amy Adams, Sandra Bullock, Gwyneth Paltrow., all look fabulous and none ready for the home yet.  Same with actors like Matt Damon, Ewan McGregor, Keanu Reeves. 

I can never tell how old anyone is once they hit 30. People look younger these days in general, and some people just have excellent genes.

I thought Claire looked younger when she got back to the C18th, especially in the opening scene in which she's gazing down at Jamie. I attribute that to the sweet tentativeness of her affect and to how 1960s hair and makeup made everyone look older than their years. I can't bring myself to worry about verisimilitude when it comes to the characters' appearance. I watch a lot of period drama, and part of the bargain is you have to accept that, whatever the setting, there are typically a disproportionate number of beautiful people with impeccable hair and makeup. 

[Summer]

I think the gripe with the age thing is less about how young they look for their show ages now (which is what, mid/late forties, right?) rather, the fact that it's kind of been crammed down our throats that they haven't seen each other for 20 years.   TWENTY YEARS SEPARATED!!!!!!!   And 20 years is a long time, you would expect people to look a little different than they did 20 years ago.  

I think they did the best they could with 'aging' them in a more subtle way, Jamie with his reading glasses and they way he carried himself.  And lets face it, I doubt the show would resort to prosthetics and make up to make Jamie's taught, tight, sigh worthy body, look less firm and saggy.  I would personally like to thank the show runners for that decision :)  

For what it's worth, I have lived a healthy lifestyle, sunscreen every single day since my 20's and I look far younger than my actual age.  The vain part of me loves to tell people how old I am just to see their shocked reaction...hee hee hee....

Edited October 24, 2017 by Summer

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think they’ve done a good job of making them look older-just from that video @WatchrTina posted-they look like babies!

I agree.  When I watch that video and they intercut scenes from the wedding night with the ones from this episode I AM struck by how much younger wedding-night Jamie looks -- at least his facial expressions.  So wide-eyed and virginal.  Sigh.

7 minutes ago, AD55 said:

I can never tell how old anyone is once they hit 30.

I think the French even have an expression where they say a woman "is of a certain age" which means anywhere from 30 to menopause because in that magic couple of decades (or more if you have good genes and/or a good healthcare and skin care regime), woman can be rather timeless.  Catherine Deneuve is the standard-bearer for the phenomenon.

Edited October 24, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Summer]

12 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I AM struck by how much younger wedding-night Jamie looks

The scene right after he asks Claire if she liked it and she gets up and walks across the room, then turns around she says she did like it,  Jamie looks up at her with this happy look on his face, and I remember thinking  to myself  "omg he looks about 20 in that shot" 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Summer

[morgan]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

 

And regarding Claire's carelessness at the brothel, I'll attribute that to her not yet having the 18th c mindset.  She was still thinking in terms of the relative safety of the 20th c-- hanging out with the girls before the shop opened and leaving her door unlocked.  Finding a rapey man in her room will remind her to be more careful.

That’s a good point.  And honestly I would think Claire would consider herself almost overdressed/modest for breakfast at a brothel!  She probably assumed not a lot of (if any) customers at that hour and she was heading to a behind the scenes area like the kitchen.  In my mind I always figured  she used a back staircase even.  It also was definitely reminiscent of the wedding search for food.  I like to think Claire is always comfortable in her own skin and was still in that post coital bliss phase where she is probably not quite thinking on all cylinders....

Edited October 24, 2017 by morgan

[morgan]

12 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Double-posting because this video homage to episode 306 is SO VERY GOOD

https://youtu.be/d5tGzbCmAjg

Oh my that really was amazing!!!!!

[LadyAmalthea]

I have zero issue with Claire leaving the room in search of breakfast - it didn't seem to be "business hours" and it wasn't like she was wandering in and out of rooms, she went straight to the meals area which seemed to be workers only.  Is she meant to stay locked in a small room or at Jamie's side at all times?

I enjoyed the reunion as well, although I think Sam does a better job of selling older Jamie - loved the glasses and didn't mind that he wasn't weeping over the photos, I don't think that would have really worked on screen.  As someone above indicated that it was indeed in the script, I wonder if they filmed it and it just wasn't right so they stuck to the more subtle reaction.  Loved Fergus, his reaction to Claire and their hug was precious. 

Edit:  Sam just posted this on twitter re script to scene:

"I use action lines as guide only "falling apart" doesn't have to mean tears, can be internal.  Was my creative choice. Plus felt melodramatic."

Edited October 25, 2017 by LadyAmalthea

[Nidratime]

Yes, apparently, even though the script said that Jamie should fall apart upon seeing photos of Bree. He felt it was too melodramatic as you say above.
 

Quote

 

Sam Heughan‏Verified account @SamHeughan

Sam Heughan Retweeted Outlander Writers

I use action lines as guide only "Falling apart" doesnt have to mean tears, can be internal. Was my creative choice. Plus felt melodramatic

 

 

Quote

Sam Heughan‏Verified account @SamHeughan 4h4 hours ago

Sam Heughan Retweeted Sam Heughan

J hasn't met Bree. Has had relationship with Willie. Plus wonder at situation, new tech, never seen B etc.Way was written felt stalled scene

 

Of course, the director could have directed him to do it more openly and perhaps they tried it and it didn't work for them.... Who knows.

[Thalia]

On October 23, 2017 at 10:41 AM, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

So the other part I wanted to comment on is the voice-over.  (Sorry that I'm commenting randomly, I'm doing it as I get time at work.)

When Claire says they spent the entire meal savoring each other and talking about their lives for the past 20 years apart, the voice-over implies that Jamie would have said "I was rescued against my will at Culloden and my life was spared - more about that guy later - and Jenny saved my leg.  Then I lived in a cave for many years and that's when Fergus lost his hand.  I turned myself in so Jenny could get the reward money and spent the next several years in prison where I reunited with Murtagh!  Yeah, I know, I thought he was dead too... He was sent to the colonies and I was sent to be a groomsman.  I was spared because - remember when we pretended that I was going to rape you to scare that little kid shitless?  Good times, good times... well, that little kid became the warden of the prison.  He likes me. ::wink:: So he spared my life.  Then, well... Willie, I already told you about him, and... I marr- I mean, some more stuff happened... and here we are."  

 

 

I was thinking of your very funny post last night, and came up with my own version: 

"So how's Rupert?"  "Dead."  "Angus?"  "Dead."  "Murtagh?"  "Transported."  [awkward pause]  "Did I mention that Bree was editor of her high school year book?" 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Thalia

[Kata01]

“J hasn’t met Bree. Has had relationship with Willie.” 

No, yes, that was made all too clear in the scene as shown on television ?? The gushing over Willie made that crystal, Sam. Wow. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Thalia said:

I was thinking of your very funny post last night, and came up with my own version: 

"So how's Rupert?"  "Dead."  "Angus?"  "Dead."  "Murtagh?"  "Transported."  [awkward pause]  "Did I mention that Bree was editor of her high school year book?" 

And from last season, we know that Claire learned that EVERYONE she knew had died at and after Culloden-because their names were written down before they were killed (the survivors). She even thought Jamie had died there. And Claire was there when Angus died. Since I’m one who didn’t care for Murtagh surviving, I’m perfectly fine with Jamie having told her his fate while they were eating.

1 hour ago, Kata01 said:

“J hasn’t met Bree. Has had relationship with Willie.” 

No, yes, that was made all too clear in the scene as shown on television ?? The gushing over Willie made that crystal, Sam. Wow. 

So now we’re going to pile on the actors? Allrighty then.

And I didn’t see any gushing over Willie. Just a father who got to have some part in raising his child and sharing that bittersweet memory and love for a child he can’t acknowledge as his own.

Claire did ask about him.

Edited October 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule
STOOPID "AUTOCORRECT!"

[WatchrTina]

Oh no!  Mommy and Daddy are fighting.  

The two tweets from Sam this morning defending his creative choices in the scene with Bree's photos make my heart hurt -- especially since I think Sam might have interpreted the tweet from the "Outlander Writers" twitter account (the one that said "It is our intention that all action lines are filmed. We're disappointed that this one [Jamie breaking down] wasn't") as criticism of his performance.  Ouch.

Man it must be difficult to be in show business.  There is SO much to love about this episode but I'm afraid the creative team (actors, writers, director) are hearing the criticism more loudly than the praise.  And I say that as one of the critics (I said they "fucked it up" with regard to the photos scene in the books-vs-show thread).

This is actually an interesting debate.  Sam says in his second tweet that the way it was written "felt melodramatic."  I am reminded of a couple I am very close to who suffered a miscarriage.  Later they had a fight because she felt he didn't mourn the loss as much as she did because she couldn't see it.  He got really angry at that and assured her that just because he didn't show his feelings as openly as she did, it didn't mean he wasn't suffering just as much as her.  Men and women ARE different.  This book was written by a woman.  I am a woman and when I imagined the scene of Jamie "going quietly to pieces" in my head I imagined it from my perspective as a woman.  But Sam is a man and his creative interpretation of that moment was different.  As a man -- and more importantly, as the person responsible for bringing the character of Jamie to life for the last 4 years -- his interpretation of what Jamie would do in that moment is probably more valid than mine (or any other fan.)  

I remember too that one of the challenges Sam faces is having to portray a character who is now 20 years older than the one he first portrayed just 4 years ago.  We don't want him made up with a lot of wrinkles and grey hair so he has to pull off that aging by acting older -- wiser, more jaded, slower to displays of anger and of grief.  Reading Sam's tweets this morning, I can well imagine that he felt that Jamie breaking down in silent sobbing (which is how it plays in my mind when I read the book) would have looked too weak and too young for the character he's now being asked to depict.

Edited October 25, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Kata01]

30 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So now we’re going to pile on the actors? Allrighty then.

And I didn’t see any gushing over Willie. Just a father who got to have some part in raising his child and sharing that bittersweet memory and love for a child he can’t acknoledge as his own.

Claire did ask about him.

Pile on the actors? Sam responded on his own to a dialogue between a viewer and the writer regarding that particular scene. The episode had some beautiful moments, no question, but the Bree scene (or lack of it) marred the episode as whole for me. My opinion. And I stand by it. 

[koboldin]

29 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

Pile on the actors? Sam responded on his own to a dialogue between a viewer and the writer regarding that particular scene. The episode had some beautiful moments, no question, but the Bree scene (or lack of it) marred the episode as whole for me. My opinion. And I stand by it. 

I appreciated his insight and input - I actually don't find his emotional reaction to Brianna's pictures particularly wanting - to me, I think the scene's problem is in editing and in the decision to bring Willie into the conversation. Those are two creative choices out of the actors' control. 

What I see as the most problematic is that the last Brianna spoken interaction in the scene is the bikini part. Jamie hands Claire the pictures and gets up, stiffly walks to the mantel to get the Willie portrait, while Claire bows her head over the pictures and defends the swim suit (but not the presence of a male friend). At that point there is no fast cut that would suggest time spent talking, just the continuation of the scene with the very emotional Willie confession. Jamie never reassures Claire in the scene about Brianna or goes back to her at all, and the scene ends by the 1pm bell ring and the start of the action.

It's really that staging I think people are negatively reacting to - I understand the reason to bring up Willie in the scene, I felt the emotion of Jamie learning about his living daughter, I found the beat to include Faith true to the moment. But the scene was disjointed as presented, and it's a pivotal moment in the story. The blowback by the audience is as much as authentic reaction as you can get, and it not like fudging ages for modern sensibilities.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So now we’re going to pile on the actors? Allrighty then.

And I didn’t see any gushing over Willie. Just a father who got to have some part in raising his child and sharing that bittersweet memory and love for a child he can’t acknoledge as his own.

Claire did ask about him.

 

50 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

Pile on the actors? Sam responded on his own to a dialogue between a viewer and the writer regarding that particular scene. The episode had some beautiful moments, no question, but the Bree scene (or lack of it) marred the episode as whole for me. My opinion. And I stand by it. 

I trust the actors more than the writers.  Something may look good on paper, but if the actors say it wasn't working, then it wasn't working.  I'm fine with all of Sam's choices so far, and in rewatching the episode (for like the fifth or sixth time, nbd...), he does cry a fair amount when he first sees Claire.  He "goes to pieces" just fine for me.

ETA:  Maybe I should put this in the "unpopular opinion" thread, but I don't see the big deal about the photos in the first place.  He doesn't even know what photos are!  

Edited October 25, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
typo

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

 

I trust the actors more than the writers.  Something may look good on paper, but if the actors say it wasn't working, then it wasn't working.  I'm fine with all of Sam's choices so far, and in rewatching the episode (for like the fifth or sixth time, nbd...), he does cry a fair amount when he first sees Claire.  He "goes to pieces" just fine for me.

 

 

Closest I could find for "nodding in agreement."

Edited October 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Biggie B]

Having read the books a long time ago, I cannot recall: when Claire's torn dress was sent out for repair, was there a zipper in it, as we saw in this episode? Or, was that zipper part of a garment that wasn't sent out for repair in the books (so many layers of clothing! I'd never have lasted 5 minutes!). It's a moot point in this episode, as the garments stayed with Claire and no one but Jamie saw them, but I couldn't recall if in the books, she'd included a zipper. 

Other than the photographs - and some of the surgical/medical stuff she took from the hospital - I wonder if Claire brought back any other modern items, things small enough to fit in the pockets of her cloak. It got me to wondering what I might take with me, if anything. At first I though of perhaps tweezers and nail clippers, but perhaps something like those already existed. Not that they existed in 1968, but imagine bringing an iPhone back! 

[Kata01]

Just adding for the sake of adding that DG was not happy with that scene either ;) 

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

Just adding for the sake of adding that DG was not happy with that scene either ;) 

I'm including DG as a "writer" in my previous comment. ;-)  (She writes some very unrealistic scenes that could never transfer to the screen word-for-word.)

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Having read the books a long time ago, I cannot recall: when Claire's torn dress was sent out for repair, was there a zipper in it, as we saw in this episode? Or, was that zipper part of a garment that wasn't sent out for repair in the books (so many layers of clothing! I'd never have lasted 5 minutes!). It's a moot point in this episode, as the garments stayed with Claire and no one but Jamie saw them, but I couldn't recall if in the books, she'd included a zipper. 

Yes, the dress still had the zipper in it when it was sent out for repairs in the book. I remember thinking it would've been funny to see the seamstress's reactions to that!

5 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Other than the photographs - and some of the surgical/medical stuff she took from the hospital - I wonder if Claire brought back any other modern items, things small enough to fit in the pockets of her cloak. It got me to wondering what I might take with me, if anything. At first I though of perhaps tweezers and nail clippers, but perhaps something like those already existed. Not that they existed in 1968, but imagine bringing an iPhone back! 

Yeah, I played this game too when I read the books, but in the end, I think Claire did it right. She wasn't going back to change history so was careful to not take a bunch of stuff that would make her stand out or change the course of history.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Not that they existed in 1968, but imagine bringing an iPhone back!

It would be pretty useless unless you had a solar powered one, and who would you call or text? 

[Biggie B]

I know - a smart phone would be useless upon arrival - but I was thinking more of the camera function.

[GingerMarie]

Right after I watched A. Malcolm I posted  'My picture is better than Your pictures'.  I put a disclaimer that I hope I would feel differently about that scene when I watched the episode again.  And I did feel differently.  It was an amazing scene.  I think we should put ourselves in Jamie's frame of mind after seeing pictures of his daughter that did indeed live and that sending Claire back was not in vain.  I saw the pain, longing, frustration and happiness when he looked at her pictures.  When he got up to tell Claire about his son I felt it was a way for Jamie to say I know I missed everything about our daughter and in the short time I spent with my son I know the love a parent feels for their child and while I had a short time with him I never will get that with our daughter.  It was beautifully done.  

[AD55]

Jamie's a stoic guy (did we see him fall apart when he left Willie, even knowing he would likely never see him again?). His passing out is already a dramatic deviation, but not necessarily an unrealistic one, from his usual way of dealing with trauma. I never thought it would play well for Sam to break down over the photographs. Seeing them must have been surreal (above I said I thought it would be almost like looking at a space alien) and nearly impossible to process on the spot. I didn't break down when my mom died after a long illness but I cried quietly by myself (except for a tactful bottle of wine) the whole time  I was writing the eulogy two days later.  I thought Sam conveyed plenty of emotion. To state the obvious, everyone deals with grief and other strong emotions differently.

It just occurred to me that another reason Jamie brings up Willie is it's a way to stuff the emotions about Bree that are coming to the fore. He's still not entirely sure why Claire has come back. Breaking down in front of someone requires a level of comfort and trust that he doesn't have at that moment. We're looking at this as readers who know that Jamie and Claire's love is one for the ages. He's not there yet. I'm with Sam on this one.

[Cloudberryjam]

Hmm. Coffee talk a la Mike Myers:

Jamie broke down with Jenny  after Fergus hand incident but not upon Claire reunion/Brianna pics. Discuss. 

[morgan]

I’m not sure I needed Sam/Jamie to break down.  I think more I would have liked a beat talking about Bree and her interests and personality more than we got.  I am fine with the Willie add, but needed a minute or 2 more.

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 minutes ago, AD55 said:

Jamie's a stoic guy (did we see him fall apart when he left Willie, even knowing he would likely never see him again?). His passing out is already a dramatic deviation, but not necessarily an unrealistic one, from his usual way of dealing with trauma. I never thought it would play well for Sam to break down over the photographs. Seeing them must have been surreal (above I said I thought it would be almost like looking at a space alien) and nearly impossible to process on the spot. I didn't break down when my mom died after a long illness but I cried quietly by myself (except for a tactful bottle of wine) the whole time  I was writing the eulogy two days later.  I thought Sam conveyed plenty of emotion. To state the obvious, everyone deals with grief and other strong emotions differently.

It just occurred to me that another reason Jamie brings up Willie is it's a way to stuff the emotions about Bree that are coming to the fore. He's still not entirely sure why Claire has come back. Breaking down in front of someone requires a level of comfort and trust that he doesn't have at that moment. We're looking at this as readers who know that Jamie and Claire's love is one for the ages. He's not there yet. I'm with Sam on this one.

Because no words, just this in agreement:

 

 

9 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Hmm. Coffee talk a la Mike Myers:

Jamie broke down with Jenny  after Fergus hand incident but not upon Claire reunion/Brianna pics. Discuss. 

Because he was finally dealing with Claire being gone, and both he and Jenny knew, lived with and loved Claire? Known, lived and loved Fergus? While Bree was the child he'd never known? And that's the last word from me, because it seems we're just going in circles.

Edited October 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Edited October 25, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Kata01]

2 hours ago, koboldin said:

I appreciated his insight and input - I actually don't find his emotional reaction to Brianna's pictures particularly wanting - to me, I think the scene's problem is in editing and in the decision to bring Willie into the conversation. Those are two creative choices out of the actors' control. 

What I see as the most problematic is that the last Brianna spoken interaction in the scene is the bikini part. Jamie hands Claire the pictures and gets up, stiffly walks to the mantel to get the Willie portrait, while Claire bows her head over the pictures and defends the swim suit (but not the presence of a male friend). At that point there is no fast cut that would suggest time spent talking, just the continuation of the scene with the very emotional Willie confession. Jamie never reassures Claire in the scene about Brianna or goes back to her at all, and the scene ends by the 1pm bell ring and the start of the action.

It's really that staging I think people are negatively reacting to - I understand the reason to bring up Willie in the scene, I felt the emotion of Jamie learning about his living daughter, I found the beat to include Faith true to the moment. But the scene was disjointed as presented, and it's a pivotal moment in the story. The blowback by the audience is as much as authentic reaction as you can get, and it not like fudging ages for modern sensibilities.

I agree- it’s a case where interchanging scenes from the book, inserting exact dialogue in areas, but omitting others created a negative reaction with that scene (to varying degrees) for many viewers. ??‍♀️ 

From an emotional standpoint, I’m feeling Bree more than Jamie or even Claire in those moments. Much later in the book when Jamie does talk to Claire about Willie, he tells her, “I was afraid to tell ye,” he said, low-voiced. “For fear ye would think that perhaps I’d gone about spawning a dozen bastards…for fear ye’d think that I wouldna care for Brianna so much, if ye kent I had another child. But I do care, Claire—a great deal more than I can tell ye.” If he said something similar or along those lines on the show (obviously exact dialogue would not work here), it would have gone such a long way for me and I would have no problems with the scene as is. 

[FnkyChkn34]

28 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Hmm. Coffee talk a la Mike Myers:

Jamie broke down with Jenny  after Fergus hand incident but not upon Claire reunion/Brianna pics. Discuss. 

Fergus losing his hand is what made Jamie realize that his actions were hurting the people he loved the most that were still alive and with him.  He'd had years to stew on this point.  Claire returning was a shock and he was overwhelmed.  He had only minutes to react.  He did cry when kissing her, then Geordie killed the mood.  (And the Brianna pics, well, that's been discussed at depth and I've already stated my opinion.)

[Cloudberryjam]

45 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Hmm. Coffee talk a la Mike Myers:

Jamie broke down with Jenny  after Fergus hand incident but not upon Claire reunion/Brianna pics. Discuss. 

Replying to myself because im cool like that:

My feeling is that in showing us Jamies new life in Edinburgh in the cold open, the show wants viewers to understand that Jamie is in a much better place than he was in the previous 5 eps. 

Therefore when Claire arrives, hes much less emotional than he might have been had she returned when he was, in the show’s view, a more broken man. 

If it wasnt for the time travel and through the stones danger and wackiness of Claires return, if say Jamie HAD sent her to France to live with Jared or similar, and then she returned, I buy this  non hugging non shocked reunion. Its just —time travel seems kind of a big deal! But it looks like in ep 7 he says some stuff about that...

Love Outlander! All is well!

ETA: i take back non shocked because the man did faint! 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Cloudberryjam
Because he fainted

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Cloudberryjam said:

My feeling is that in showing us Jamies new life in Edinburgh in the cold open, the show wants viewers to understand that Jamie is in a much better place than he was in the previous 5 eps. 

Well yeah. He's not in prison, nor is he serving parole and working as a groom. He's his own man and running his own business, and living existing. Without Claire.

[GingerMarie]

33 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Hmm. Coffee talk a la Mike Myers:

Jamie broke down with Jenny  after Fergus hand incident but not upon Claire reunion/Brianna pics. Discuss. 

Great point CBJ.  I feel him breaking down when Fergus lost his hand was an accumulation of all that had and was happening in the years after Claire went back.  It was a desperate time for Jamie as well as his family.  Granted  he did live each day before Claire went back as a 'hunted man' but it seems to me Claire gave him reason to fight.  He was an honorable man and could not continue to see his family pay the price for his actions.  I believe when he 'gave' himself up he really set himself free.  As I stated before when I first watched the episode I was like 'did he really just throw up his son in Claire's face'.  But when I went back and watched the scene again I saw happiness, sorrow, joy, frustration and regret in Jamie's face as well as his body language.  Did I think his reaction would have been different, sure but looking back I feel it was perfect.  

BTW I really like the end of your post. Discuss.  That should be a reminder to all of us that this is a discussion board.  

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Cloudberryjam said:

Replying to myself because im cool like that:

My feeling is that in showing us Jamies new life in Edinburgh in the cold open, the show wants viewers to understand that Jamie is in a much better place than he was in the previous 5 eps. 

Therefore when Claire arrives, hes much less emotional than he might have been had she returned when he was, in the show’s view, a more broken man. 

If it wasnt for the time travel and through the stones danger and wackiness of Claires return, if say Jamie HAD sent her to France to live with Jared or similar, and then she returned, I buy this  non hugging non shocked reunion. Its just —time travel seems kind of a big deal! But it looks like in ep 7 he says some stuff about that...

Love Outlander! All is well!

ETA: i take back non shocked because the man did faint! 

I think it's going to take several episodes for him to process it all.  Bree and these wacky things called photographs included.

[Cloudberryjam]

I also agree there were odd camera angles and choices that made the reunion scenes probably less impactful.  I think Sam is crying in the print shop as they first kiss, but the lighting and angle makes it very hard to see (at least on my screen). 

Also for me its not just Jamie, Claire is also pretty  stoic in these scenes IMO.  But apparently I am turning into an old lady who wants only high drama and big feels. I may check out some soap operas!!  I just wanted some damn hugging to warm my cold dead heart!!  Oh well on to the high seas!!!

[Kata01]

While the episodes themselves are stand alone, they also don’t exist in a vacuum. Previous to the airing of this episode, I know there was a sensitivity for some fans regarding Bree and Willie. There seems to be an almost motherly protectiveness over her because she IS the child Jamie has not bonded with in the physical, like he did with Willie (and indeed I felt that for her as the scene transitioned). I saw comments back in Season 2 such as, “Why did we get no conception scene with either Faith or Bree? Bet they will show how Willie was made.” This season there was also some upset that Jamie’s 20 year prayer was edited out of 3.04 - Lord that she may be safe. She and the child. So I think all in all this photo scene backlash is a cumulative reaction.

Sigh. Moving forward, I hope future episodes contain some meaty soulful Bree talk with no mention of Little Lord Fauntleroy ;) 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Kata01

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

Sigh. Moving forward, I hope future episodes contain some meaty soulful Bree talk with no mention of Little Lord Fauntleroy ;) 

I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree.  If we don't see or hear of her again until Season 4, I'm good with that.

Personally, I can admit that my other problem is that I just don't really care for Bree.  And this has nothing to do with the actress, who is growing on me.  I just find the character - in the books - to be so annoying.  She's not a favorite of mine, at all.  So I don't really care that Jamie didn't gush over her, because I sure don't gush over her either.  

Edited October 25, 2017 by FnkyChkn34

[Kata01]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree.  Personally, I can admit that my other problem is that I just don't really care for Bree.  And this has nothing to do with the actress, who is growing on me.  I just find the character - in the books - to be so annoying.  She's not a favorite of mine, at all.  So I don't really care that Jamie didn't gush over her, because I sure don't gush over her either.  

That’s fair. I found both Bree and Willie annoying in the books. lol I came to like them better as adults. Young Ian, however, had me at hello. 

[FnkyChkn34]

9 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

That’s fair. I found both Bree and Willie annoying in the books. lol I came to like them better as adults. Young Ian, however, had me at hello. 

Yes, and the actor who played him!

[GHScorpiosRule]

20 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

I saw comments back in Season 2 such as, “Why did we get no conception scene with either Faith or Bree? Bet they will show how Willie was made.”

We never saw Faith or Bree's conception scenes in the buiks either. And showing the conception of Willie was integral to Jamie's story--in that he was fucking threatened and blackmailed into doing so because Geneva didn't want to be deflowered by a man thrice her age. I will forever be grateful that the totality of what happened in the buik didn't make it to the screen. 

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

We never saw Faith or Bree's conception scenes in the buiks either. And showing the conception of Willie was integral to Jamie's story--in that he was fucking threatened and blackmailed into doing so because Geneva didn't want to be deflowered by a man thrice her age. I will forever be grateful that the totality of what happened in the buik didn't make it to the screen. 

Also, I think it's to be assumed that Jamie and Claire had a healthy sex life - so who knows when Faith or Bree was actually conceived.  When you're getting busy every night, it's hard to pinpoint (and too much to show on the tv show).  Willie, on the other hand, was a one time deal.  His time of conception is known.

[Athena]

30 minutes ago, Kata01 said:

That’s fair. I found both Bree and Willie annoying in the books. lol I came to like them better as adults. Young Ian, however, had me at hello. 

I agree and part of it is that Willie was spoiled being the heir and having a doting family. Bree was also spoiled by Frank in a way too and she had more opportunities and different attitude being from the 20th century. Young Ian always came off as well mannered and hard working even from a young age which reflects his upbringing in the country side and his parents.

I love Young Ian. I look forward to seeing where the show takes this character for the next couple of seasons. I prefer Ian over Willie most days.

[Kata01]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

We never saw Faith or Bree's conception scenes in the buiks either. And showing the conception of Willie was integral to Jamie's story--in that he was fucking threatened and blackmailed into doing so because Geneva didn't want to be deflowered by a man thrice her age. I will forever be grateful that the totality of what happened in the buik didn't make it to the screen. 

While it’s never implicitly stated in the books, Diana has said Faith was most probably conceived the night Jamie went to Claire in the Abbey naked and freezing. 

I agree that Geneva was an important part of the story. I thought the length of the on air sex scene was a bit gratuitous and unnecessary for my taste, but that’s all subjective, eh? 

5 minutes ago, Athena said:

I agree and part of it is that Willie was spoiled being the heir and having a doting family. Bree was also spoiled by Frank in a way too and she had more opportunities and different attitude being from the 20th century. Young Ian always came off as well mannered and hard working even from a young age which reflects his upbringing in the country side and his parents.

I love Young Ian. I look forward to seeing where the show takes this character for the next couple of seasons. I prefer Ian over Willie most days.

I so agree! I was delighted to see Young Ian appear on my screen last week. He was a highlight. 

[Biggie B]

I'll admit, I wasn't much of a Bree fan throughout the books. Roger either, for that matter, although so far, I am liking this iteration of Roger. 

Ian was a wonderful character - his life with the Native Americans was fascinating (that was Ian, right?). But that's a long way off.

[Ziggy]

5 hours ago, koboldin said:

I actually don't find his emotional reaction to Brianna's pictures particularly wanting - to me, I think the scene's problem is in editing and in the decision to bring Willie into the conversation. Those are two creative choices out of the actors' control. 

 

I wasn't bothered by how Jamie behaved while looking at the pictures.  I was disappointed that he abruptly began talking about Willie.  I thought, wait, back to Bree for a moment.  You have a 20 year old daughter!!!  Don't you want to hear more about her first?

[Tif]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

We never saw Faith or Bree's conception scenes in the buiks either. And showing the conception of Willie was integral to Jamie's story--in that he was fucking threatened and blackmailed into doing so because Geneva didn't want to be deflowered by a man thrice her age. I will forever be grateful that the totality of what happened in the buik didn't make it to the screen. 

I always thought Faith's conception was at the end of "Outlander" in the monastery the night Claire brings Jamie back from near death.  They stayed in the monastery for a few weeks for him to completely heal.  So based on that time frame and this passage on the last page, "The move above was a Christmas moon, so large as almost to fill the empty window.  It seemed no wonder that the tides of sea and woman should be subject to the pull of that stately orb, so close and so commanding.  But my own tides moved no longer to that chaste and sterile summons, and the knowledge of my freedom raced like danger through my blood.  "I have a gift for you too," I said suddenly to Jamie.  He turned toward me and his hand slid, large and sure, over the plane of my still-flat stomach"

[Kata01]

22 minutes ago, Tif said:

I always thought Faith's conception was at the end of "Outlander" in the monastery the night Claire brings Jamie back from near death.  They stayed in the monastery for a few weeks for him to completely heal.  So based on that time frame and this passage on the last page, "The move above was a Christmas moon, so large as almost to fill the empty window.  It seemed no wonder that the tides of sea and woman should be subject to the pull of that stately orb, so close and so commanding.  But my own tides moved no longer to that chaste and sterile summons, and the knowledge of my freedom raced like danger through my blood.  "I have a gift for you too," I said suddenly to Jamie.  He turned toward me and his hand slid, large and sure, over the plane of my still-flat stomach"

Same. Diana has confirmed that as well. Also, there is this:

Spoiler

In one of the Daily Lines Diana has published for Book 9, Jamie and Claire have this conversation:

 “…the night we made Faith.”

 

 I lifted my head in surprise.

 “You _know_ when she was conceived?  _I_ don’t know that.”

 

 He ran his hand slowly down my back, fingers pausing to rub circles in the small of it.  If I’d been a cat, I would have waved my tail gently under his nose.

 

 “Aye, well, I suppose I could be wrong, but I’ve always thought it was the night I came to your bed at the Abbey.”

[millahnna]

7 hours ago, koboldin said:

I appreciated his insight and input - I actually don't find his emotional reaction to Brianna's pictures particularly wanting - to me, I think the scene's problem is in editing and in the decision to bring Willie into the conversation. Those are two creative choices out of the actors' control. 

 

Completely with you on this.  I'm with Sam, too, for that matter.  While, as you say, I think there were creative choices outside of Sam's purview that made the situation wonky, I'm inclined to agree with him that a literal translation of Jamie's reaction in the book would have come off melodramatic on the show.  The major glitch was the awkward transition from a writing perspective to the Willy stuff for me.  It's funny; on the whole I thought the episode was overlong but that's one moment I think they could have let breathe a little more. It would have made the Willy talk seem more organic, so to speak, if it had come off as a segue to pressure away from his emotions regarding Bree.