S04.E09: Search / S04.E10: Ten of Swords

[Moxie Cat]

11 hours ago, cinles said:

This show became one big feminist party after season one

Really interesting (and sad) that there is such a strong reaction to the show focusing on Cam and Donna in the later seasons. As I recall, when season 2 started, there was a lot of widespread support for the show shifting its focus to the women, whom many felt were simply more interesting than the male characters. Wasn't there critical consensus that the show had improved in season 2, mostly due to its larger focus on Cam and Donna and their partnership?

And: Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Draper, Nucky Thompson, Al Swearingen, etc. etc. I like all of those shows but women are just expected to accept that a protagonist will be male in many cases. God forbid a show give equal weight to its female characters, or give them more prominence as the show develops over time. I actually thought HACF spread the wealth among its four main characters fairly well (Donna was more minor in season 1). This kind of reaction makes me wonder how GOT will be received by a certain contingent if Jon dies and Dany winds up on the throne. I imagine we'll have widespread bitching that the show runners turned GRRM's (secret) vision into a feminist wet dream because David Benioff is married to Amanda Peet, and apparently she decreed it.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Moxie Cat

[Ms Lark]

On 10/15/2017 at 9:13 PM, stealinghome said:

The more poetic answer is either what the creators told the director or the director told Kerry Bishe--can't remember which one it was--but anyway, the idea is "Donna sees the future. The whole future. Everything about the future." She sees where we'll be in 2017 with the internet. And I love that, too!

Groan. Ugh. Yeah, sure. Dream on Director. She is so brilliant she sees 20 years in the future to all the tech that will be invented. Should buy a lottery ticket with that level of precognition.

[green]

14 hours ago, cinles said:

This show became one big feminist party after season one. Chris Cantwell has publically said how much his wife influenced his writing and thus the other's writing. This show became about Cameron and particularly Donna after season one. It was no longer about "Joe and his supreme vision". Season one will always be my favorite season.

Oh boo hoo.  Them thar women folk didn't know their place and sit in the back seat while bs artist Joe drives them all to ruin.

Someone above mentioned three women in their 60 person class.  That was about the top ratio you got back in those days in electronic engineering.  And the women did have to be twice as smart and twice as hard working to earn even half the pay check while never getting the promotions and fighting off lewd male nerds in the process.  And the recent news about the current state of affairs in Silcon Valley shows there is still the same old problem there.  What in the hell is wrong with so many male techies over the years anyway?!?

Thank God for Halt and Catch Fire not goose stepping along with the Silcon Boys and their fear of women who can engineer and program them into the ground.  They even had Joe and Gordon both grow to be less of an ass at the end.  Excellent series.  Well done.

Edited October 17, 2017 by green

[kieyra]

12 hours ago, JZL said:

That reminded me they played another Gabriel tune, Mercy Street, in an earlier episode.  I don't think either of these were 90's hits, though they both hold up even today.

 

Mercy Street last season gutted me. I hadn't heard the song in ... at least fifteen years? But it had always been a devastating song. I've never seen it used in a television show, and when I recognized the intro during Donna's drugged dream-state, I got chills. (I don't chill easily.)

That scene (Donna's conversation with imaginary Cam) was one of the things I'll always remember about this show. I watch too much television to be easily moved by much of it, but that scene was a knife to the heart. 

A lot of this show has been a knife to the heart. 

[Cramps]

1. To the first of the two people who hated that the show moved it's focus to include the women characters--Donna didn't actually end up cheating on Gordon, Gordon cheated on Donna. 

 

2. I would like to think that Donna's idea involved music and not some sort of payment program. Music has been a huge part of both the show and Cameron's character, for  its entire run. It would be the ideal ending. 

 

3. I'm not sure how I feel about the Joe ending. He's been a tech guy his whole life. How is he getting a humanities teaching job? Business, tech sure. But humanities? In the after show interviews, the Chris's say this is the job he will do for the rest of his life. But the Joe we know, despite all his growth, is someone who will move on to something new in a few years. 

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Cramps said:

2. I would like to think that Donna's idea involved music and not some sort of payment program. Music has been a huge part of both the show and Cameron's character, for  its entire run. It would be the ideal ending. 

Music was/is hugely important to Donna too. One of her first really genuine compliments to Cam was that Cam's code was like music! It would be a nice character tie for both of them.

Edited October 17, 2017 by stealinghome

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, Cramps said:

2. I would like to think that Donna's idea involved music and not some sort of payment program.

Maybe she thought "internet cafe".

[TC3200]

Okay, I am baffled by Joe's remark to Cam, when they were breaking up, when he said "You were the thing that gets me to the thing.  It was always you."    (or something like that)   Wut?  Wut is that remark  supposed to mean?   Maybe the writers meant it as a compliment to Cam, but it came across as insulting or condescending to me, if they were supposed to be a couple in love.   Like narcissist Joe admitting "I used to think your were the greatest thing in the world, but now I see you were less than that."    Maybe it's because I have trouble recalling what happened in the past seasons, but I never could gauge whether Cameron loved Joe more than Joe loved Cameron.   Cameron seemed to prefer Joe's crazy to Tom's plan to live a predictable married family life on an even keel.  And I always suspected Joe of using and controlling Cameron in S1 as just another vehicle for Joe to pursue Joe's goals.   Then when Cameron landed Joe, she found that he wasn't really what she wanted after all, like she had grown up and moved on, but he was still stuck in their '80s relationship.   Maybe that was the whole point of showing Joe micromanaging Cameron, and Cameron politely squirming away from Joe in S4.   Gordon called it correctly, that the Joe/Cameron relationship had no future whatsoever.   Too bad, because I really wanted both of them to find a soulmate that they'll live happily ever after with.

I actually can't believe I have watched 4 seasons of this show.  For whatever reason, S2 & S3 just didn't stick in my mind the way some other shows did.  S1 made an impression on me, I guess.   I liked the flip-flop in the Donna and Gordon characters between S1 and later seasons.   I thought Gordon was a huge jerk in S1, and Donna was a likable professional woman who was getting shortchanged in her professional and married lives.  Then, we saw Donna turn into b on wheels, and Gordon morph into a likable guy, a decent dad, and a superb boss and co-worker.   Even Joe managed to turn down his narcissism and have consideration for others.

Edited October 17, 2017 by TC3200

[Cyranetta]

One small bittersweet thing I liked was that Donna and Cam, even though they were repairing their relationship, were not able to restore Haley's file. It almost stands in for all the other things that can't be restored, like Gordon.

[dubbel zout]

I liked how Haley didn’t really care nothing could be saved. After her original reaction, it was both refreshing and slightly annoying. Heh.

[ketose]

Haley's hard drive is also a callback to the first time Donna and Cameron worked together in "Close to the Metal." In that case, they restored the data, but it was all a scheme by Joe anyway.

[Kel Varnsen]

I liked Cameron talking about the concept of a recursive function since it really was Cardiff leading to Mutiny to the browser project to Comet/Rover to whatever is next and whatever is after that. And I don't think it even matters what the idea is since like the women said it would probably fall apart anyways just like all the rest of them did.

And i liked how most of the companies didn't work. And kind of interesting most of the tech company names they dropped kind of went away too. Cameron worked for Atari, her ex worked for Sega. Gordon's big competition was AOL. The big browser they thought that beat them was mosaic, then Netscape. In the end they thought Comet was beaten by Yahoo (which is on it's last legs). Hell the product at the start of the series was the IBM PC, and those don't really exist anymore. Ir is just kind of funny how so many of these companies that the characters thought beat them ended being beaten by something else. Interesting commentary on how quickly tech changes.

 

1 hour ago, TC3200 said:

 I thought Gordon was a huge jerk in S1, and Donna was a likable professional woman who was getting shortchanged in her professional and married lives.  Then, we saw Donna turn into b on wheels, and Gordon morph into a likable guy, a decent dad, and a superb boss and co-worker.   Even Joe managed to turn down his narcissism and have consideration for others.

I thought Gordon was the worst in S1 too. They really did a great job of making these characters develop, change and grow. Which makes sense since the show took place over more than 10 years. 

Also: ahh Stoop Crone!

[stealinghome]

1 hour ago, Cyranetta said:

One small bittersweet thing I liked was that Donna and Cam, even though they were repairing their relationship, were not able to restore Haley's file. It almost stands in for all the other things that can't be restored, like Gordon.

But it's also such a great way of showing that it's not the end point, it's the process that's important. The journey with the people you love. Donna and Cam both had to learn that over the course of the series/this season especially, and seeing that actualized in Haley's computer is such a nice prelude to Donna's speech, where she explicitly says that. The project gets you to the people, and it's the people who are important. Haley's computer was the project, but it's Cam that's important, so not fixing it becomes immaterial. Just a chance for a new start, as Haley said.

It's also a nice counterpoint to Joe NOT being able to see that the search for Gordon's sweater with Haley wasn't about the sweater, really, but about the experience of them bonding in their grief. More broadly, it echoes Gordon's contentment with Comet (the fun is working with Joe) and also forms the contrast point in terms of the place that Joe, however much he thought he did or wanted to, couldn't quite get to (being happy with the journey even if the destination isn't what you want). I understand why some people don't like Joe's ending but that's why I think the only way to give him a somewhat happy ending is to get him off the treadmill altogether. Joe's never really going to be able to be content with the journey if the end point isn't the success he craves. 

[ketose]

9 hours ago, Cramps said:

1. To the first of the two people who hated that the show moved it's focus to include the women characters--Donna didn't actually end up cheating on Gordon, Gordon cheated on Donna. 

 

2. I would like to think that Donna's idea involved music and not some sort of payment program. Music has been a huge part of both the show and Cameron's character, for  its entire run. It would be the ideal ending. 

 

3. I'm not sure how I feel about the Joe ending. He's been a tech guy his whole life. How is he getting a humanities teaching job? Business, tech sure. But humanities? In the after show interviews, the Chris's say this is the job he will do for the rest of his life. But the Joe we know, despite all his growth, is someone who will move on to something new in a few years. 

1. Donna was pretty close to cheating on Gordon with her co-worker (boss?) who was using her for the Giant specs. Also, she made the deal with Gordon that they would stay together if he put his Cardiff money into Mutiny.

2. At least she didn't invent auto-tune. Then she would have to be sentenced to eternal damnation.

3. I get the Humanities thing. Joe was always about technology and how it would impact human interaction. How do you use a PC in the 1980's. How do you connect with people online? How do people use the internet? Joe spent a decade on the technology. Now, he's focusing on the people.

[cinles]

2 hours ago, TC3200 said:

Okay, I am baffled by Joe's remark to Cam, when they were breaking up, when he said "You were the thing that gets me to the thing.  It was always you."    (or something like that)   Wut?  Wut is that remark  supposed to mean?   Maybe the writers meant it as a compliment to Cam, but it came across as insulting or condescending to me, if they were supposed to be a couple in love.   Like narcissist Joe admitting "I used to think your were the greatest thing in the world, but now I see you were less than that."    Maybe it's because I have trouble recalling what happened in the past seasons, but I never could gauge whether Cameron loved Joe more than Joe loved Cameron.   Cameron seemed to prefer Joe's crazy to Tom's plan to live a predictable married family life on an even keel.  And I always suspected Joe of using and controlling Cameron in S1 as just another vehicle for Joe to pursue Joe's goals.   Then when Cameron landed Joe, she found that he wasn't really what she wanted after all, like she had grown up and moved on, but he was still stuck in their '80s relationship.   Maybe that was the whole point of showing Joe micromanaging Cameron, and Cameron politely squirming away from Joe in S4.   Gordon called it correctly, that the Joe/Cameron relationship had no future whatsoever.   Too bad, because I really wanted both of them to find a soulmate that they'll live happily ever after with.

I actually can't believe I have watched 4 seasons of this show.  For whatever reason, S2 & S3 just didn't stick in my mind the way some other shows did.  S1 made an impression on me, I guess.   I liked the flip-flop in the Donna and Gordon characters between S1 and later seasons.   I thought Gordon was a huge jerk in S1, and Donna was a likable professional woman who was getting shortchanged in her professional and married lives.  Then, we saw Donna turn into b on wheels, and Gordon morph into a likable guy, a decent dad, and a superb boss and co-worker.   Even Joe managed to turn down his narcissism and have consideration for others.

What Joe meant simply is that Cameron was his muse.  When Joe said that comment in S1, it was a call forward that what he wanted, what his idea was is that technology could provide many future possibilities & applications. The reason he picked Cameron out of all the college students at the beginning of S1E1 was that her answer to 'now, tell me one thing that will be true about personal computers 10 years from now?' was 'computers will be connected together across one network'. Computers are the thing that gets us to the thing and Cameron was the thing that kept Joe going.

[JZL]

22 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

 This kind of reaction makes me wonder how GOT will be received by a certain contingent if Jon dies and Dany winds up on the throne. I imagine we'll have widespread bitching that the show runners turned GRRM's (secret) vision into a feminist wet dream because David Benioff is married to Amanda Peet, and apparently she decreed it.

OMG, that's hilarious-- However, if Jon dies they'll just bring him back to life again in a sequel. 

[AllyB]

I sort of assumed that Donna's idea was some sort of precursor to Friends Reunited. All of the catching up about what their Mutiny coders were up to now gave me the impression that they'd come up with some sort of site to connect you to old friends.

On 10/15/2017 at 7:41 PM, Moxie Cat said:

But the episode with Donna's party definitely took place in late November 1994, which was mentioned as taking place 2 months after the first hour. Haley's boyfriend mentioned money he earned over Thanksgiving, and that was the same weekend that Star Trek: Generations came out. I saw it the day after Thanksgiving - it was my first semester of college and thus ingrained in my memory!

Didn't Diane say at the party that Donna had done great things in her 9 months running the company. Dating ep9 as Feb'94.

[stealinghome]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

Didn't Diane say at the party that Donna had done great things in her 9 months running the company. Dating ep9 as Feb'94.

I'd have to rewatch, but I thought Diane in 4x10 said that Donna had been the senior partner for 3 months. So I think 4x10 is set in late November '94 and 4x09 like late August '94--which also tracks because it's stated that 4x09 is taking place at the start of the school year (Donna took the summer off to be with the girls after Gordon, but school is starting for Haley now, and Joanie is going off to Europe instead of college).

So Gordon died roughly in April '94, because I think someone stated in 4x09 that it had been 4 months since his death.

[crashdown]

22 hours ago, TC3200 said:

Okay, I am baffled by Joe's remark to Cam, when they were breaking up, when he said "You were the thing that gets me to the thing.  It was always you."    (or something like that)   Wut?  Wut is that remark  supposed to mean?  

 

20 hours ago, cinles said:

What Joe meant simply is that Cameron was his muse.  When Joe said that comment in S1, it was a call forward that what he wanted, what his idea was is that technology could provide many future possibilities & applications. The reason he picked Cameron out of all the college students at the beginning of S1E1 was that her answer to 'now, tell me one thing that will be true about personal computers 10 years from now?' was 'computers will be connected together across one network'. Computers are the thing that gets us to the thing and Cameron was the thing that kept Joe going.

I think it's broader than this, and it ties in thematically with Donna's "The one constant is this, it's you, it's us. The project gets us to the people." At the beginning of the series all of these characters, but especially Joe, were always looking for the next big technological thing looming in an unknown future.  The project that they were currently working on couldn't be that thing--the most it could be was the thing that *got* them to the next thing, and so on forever. Eventually Joe learned (and Donna learned, and Gordon learned, and maybe Cam always knew) that the thing that technology got them to was the people that they loved, was human connection in general. It's kind of great.

 

20 hours ago, stealinghome said:

But it's also such a great way of showing that it's not the end point, it's the process that's important. The journey with the people you love. Donna and Cam both had to learn that over the course of the series/this season especially, and seeing that actualized in Haley's computer is such a nice prelude to Donna's speech, where she explicitly says that. The project gets you to the people, and it's the people who are important. Haley's computer was the project, but it's Cam that's important, so not fixing it becomes immaterial. Just a chance for a new start, as Haley said.

 And that's part of the above as well: what's ultimately meaningful are the experiences and connections with others, not the end product itself. Donna and Cam show that they both really get that when they go through the imaginary Phoenix scenario. Donna wants to concentrate on pure R&D for two years, and Cam says that this time they should grow at their own pace, to "really enjoy the ride."  They're both trying to extend the experience with one another as long as possible, to forestall the "success" of the IPO that will ultimately cause the whole thing to change and then die.  I thought that was very poignant.

14 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I'd have to rewatch, but I thought Diane in 4x10 said that Donna had been the senior partner for 3 months. So I think 4x10 is set in late November '94 and 4x09 like late August '94--which also tracks because it's stated that 4x09 is taking place at the start of the school year (Donna took the summer off to be with the girls after Gordon, but school is starting for Haley now, and Joanie is going off to Europe instead of college).

So Gordon died roughly in April '94, because I think someone stated in 4x09 that it had been 4 months since his death.

Yes, that's all exactly right. The finale takes place seven months since Gordon's death.

[CanadaPhil]

I stepped back from making any comments the last couple of weeks. I was already feeling a bit sad that the show was coming to its end.

I still haven't come to a conclusion if the finale did the series the justice it deserved... I'm going to think on this a little longer and I want to have a rewatch of the last few episodes.

I did like that Joe closed it out with it coming full circle to basically match the opening moments of the series premiere with the same line by Joe.

It was a nice touch seeing how Gordon was still incorporated into the final episodes after passing.

The whole ending of this story was very bittersweet and its had an effect on me. I can't think of ANY other show right now that grabbed me like this one has. 

EDIT.. I was wondering if they would make it to 1995... Well they did!... They somehow snuck in that nod to the introduction of Sony's Playstation 1.... hahaha.

((That would put the events of the finale to be at or around Sept. 1995 which was the month the PS1 was first introduced in North America))

Edited October 19, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[Kel Varnsen]

A couple of other things. Totally loved hearing Harvest Moon at Donna's party. Great song and even though I was about Haley's age at the time, it seems like the kind of song you would hear at a middle aged person party.

Also liked that Joanie had a Civic. I had a mid-90's civic for a few years in my 20's and it was a fun little car. My only disappointment was that Joanie's wasn't a hatchback.

[CanadaPhil]

10 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

....Totally loved hearing Harvest Moon at Donna's party. Great song and even though I was about Haley's age at the time...

I practically jumped when Seether by Veruca Salt started pounding through the audio... Hooooraaaay!!...but the moment was basically ruined by the Diner Teen Angst which then followed.

Edited October 19, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, CanadaPhil said:

I practically jumped when Seether by Veruca Salt started pounding through the audio... Hooooraaaay!!...but the moment was basically ruined by the Diner Teen Angst which then followed.

The teen angst served a couple of important purposes, though.  Haley had a season-long arc, and it was important to give that arc some closure.  But even more, as someone here pointed out, there was a (I think intentional) parallel between Haley's rebuff and Cam's apparent rebuff when she floated the idea of working together again with Donna. Cam's reaction wasn't as dramatic as Haley's, but she was clearly just about as mortified and devastated. It was yet another way for the show to hammer home the love story aspect of Cameron and Donna's narrative.

[cinles]

Quote

 

What Joe meant simply is that Cameron was his muse.  When Joe said that comment in S1, it was a call forward that what he wanted, what his idea was is that technology could provide many future possibilities & applications. The reason he picked Cameron out of all the college students at the beginning of S1E1 was that her answer to 'now, tell me one thing that will be true about personal computers 10 years from now?' was 'computers will be connected together across one network'. Computers are the thing that gets us to the thing and Cameron was the thing that kept Joe going.

I think it's broader than this, and it ties in thematically with Donna's "The one constant is this, it's you, it's us. The project gets us to the people." At the beginning of the series all of these characters, but especially Joe, were always looking for the next big technological thing looming in an unknown future.  The project that they were currently working on couldn't be that thing--the most it could be was the thing that *got* them to the next thing, and so on forever. Eventually Joe learned (and Donna learned, and Gordon learned, and maybe Cam always knew) that the thing that technology got them to was the people that they loved, was human connection in general. It's kind of great.

 

Watch the scene again with Joe and Cameron where Joe says that. I just watched it again. That was a personal moment between Joe and Cameron. Nobody at the beginning of this show was 'looking for the next big technological thing looming in an unknown future', except Joe. Joe was the one who made the comment about the thing getting to the thing. No one else said that. That was just about his love for Cameron.

Edited October 19, 2017 by cinles

[crashdown]

2 hours ago, cinles said:

Watch that scene again with Joe and Cameron where Joe says that. I just watched it again. That was a personal moment between Joe and Cameron. Joe was the one who made the comment about the thing getting to the thing. No one else said that. That was just about his love for Cameron.

Sure it was, but that doesn't make it any less of a commentary that the thing that technology gets you to is the people you love. One aspect that interests me is that there's an ambiguity about "the thing that gets you to the thing" that I can't believe the writers weren't aware of, and I see that it's causing different interpretations of what Joe said to Cam.  What "thing" did he consider her when he said "it was you"? Is she the first, causal thing?  If so, that's more like the muse interpretation.  Is she the second, resultant thing?  If so, that's closer to my interpretation.  I take it as the latter in large part because of Donna's speech, but Joe isn't Donna, and I don't think he landed on that way of thinking quite as much as she did. If Cameron was the object thing, not the causal thing, and Cameron is gone, it makes more sense to me that Joe would want to take himself out of the "thing that gets you to the thing" race than if Cam were simply his muse.

[stealinghome]

You know, I wonder if the ambiguity in Joe's statement--is Cam "the thing that gets him to the thing" or "the thing that gets him to the thing"--is a nice way of encapsulating part of the reason they couldn't make it work, which (imo) is that whenever Cam is around, Joe is going to be trying to use her talent in his next quest to actualize the future. I don't mean that in a negative way, like Joe is a user or doesn't love Cam or anything like that. But much of their friction in 4x09 was pretty explicitly laid out as Joe being unable to resist monopolizing Cam's time--time that really should have been going toward her own stuff--in his forever quest for the future (and not being particularly grateful about her donating her time either). Whenever they're together, Joe's going to be trying to subsume Cam in his own work, in his own agenda, he just can't not.* In other words, maybe for Joe Cameron is both things, and that's part of why they don't work, and that ambiguity in his speech gets at that.

Whereas while Donna and Cam are definitely creative soulmates and working together is, as so many reviews have eloquently said, how they connect emotionally and show their love for each other, Donna can manage to not subsume Cameron in a way Joe can't; they work together, as equals, it's not Cam working on Donna's agenda. Further, Donna was willing to not return to working with Cam because she didn't want to risk losing Cam again just as they were repairing their relationship ("that's the quickest way to mess up what we have now"). Donna's speech explicitly laid out that Cam is the second thing, the person that the work gets her to, and 4x10 is about both of them saying "we don't really care about the work itself, what we care about is doing it together." So in that sense, maybe it's significant that Donna takes "the thing that gets us to the thing" and turns it into "the project gets us to the people." Because then she can unambiguously say that Cam is the people, not the project, and the slippage inherent in Joe's statement just isn't there. The project is whatever, but Cam's the people, and that's what's important.

 

*=and I think this makes them not work on two levels. The first is that, obviously, Cam needs to be able to have a work life not subsumed by Joe's, obviously. But the second is that as long as Cam's around, Joe won't be able to prevent himself from getting back into the technological rat race. I've seen in other places people being like "wtf, if Joe is going to teach and 'have kids' that way, why couldn't he and Cam be together," but I would say that to be really happy Joe needs to get out of the race, and he WON'T be able to do that while Cam's around. Her talent will be too tempting, it will draw him back in. To break with the rat race, he had to have a clean break from Cameron too.

[JZL]

On 10/17/2017 at 5:42 PM, ketose said:

1. Donna was pretty close to cheating on Gordon with her co-worker (boss?) who was using her for the Giant specs. Also, she made the deal with Gordon that they would stay together if he put his Cardiff money into Mutiny.

2. At least she didn't invent auto-tune. Then she would have to be sentenced to eternal damnation.

3. I get the Humanities thing. Joe was always about technology and how it would impact human interaction. How do you use a PC in the 1980's. How do you connect with people online? How do people use the internet? Joe spent a decade on the technology. Now, he's focusing on the people.

1.  Yes, she would have totally boned her TI boss on a business trip but he shut it down.  I liked Donna but she was no angel.  She screwed over Cameron, became a corporate wank, and almost literally caused Boz to have a heart attack.

2.  We can only assume that Cameron would have talked her out of it.

3.  At first I did not like this but on second thought it was a good idea, and Donna ended up being the true visionary. 

[cinles]

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

Sure it was, but that doesn't make it any less of a commentary that the thing that technology gets you to is the people you love. One aspect that interests me is that there's an ambiguity about "the thing that gets you to the thing" that I can't believe the writers weren't aware of, and I see that it's causing different interpretations of what Joe said to Cam.  What "thing" did he consider her when he said "it was you"? Is she the first, causal thing?  If so, that's more like the muse interpretation.  Is she the second, resultant thing?  If so, that's closer to my interpretation.  I take it as the latter in large part because of Donna's speech, but Joe isn't Donna, and I don't think he landed on that way of thinking quite as much as she did. If Cameron was the object thing, not the causal thing, and Cameron is gone, it makes more sense to me that Joe would want to take himself out of the "thing that gets you to the thing" race than if Cam were simply his muse.

I have no clue what you're talking about. lol 'The object thing' 'The casual thing'

[crashdown]

18 minutes ago, cinles said:

I have no clue what you're talking about. lol 'The object thing' 'The casual thing'

I didn't say "casual," I said "causal." The first thing causes the second thing; the second thing is the object (the result) of the first thing.  Since both are labeled "thing," it can be confusing.  Whatever else Cam may be, she's certainly NOT a casual thing!

[cinles]

2 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I didn't say "casual," I said "causal." The first thing causes the second thing; the second thing is the object (the result) of the first thing.  Since both are labeled "thing," it can be confusing.  Whatever else Cam may be, she's certainly NOT a casual thing!

ahahaha Not everything has some intertwined meaning. Joe is the one who was the visionary. He is the one who came on the scene and changed everyone's life. He more or less told Cameron he loved her in Landfall in season one. He's been in love with her ever since. She was Joe's thing.

[crashdown]

By the way, one thing I keep forgetting to mention is that I love everything about the Donna/Cameron scenes EXCEPT for the fact that Haley's computer has a 5 1/4 inch floppy drive.  Those were completely out by '94--it should have been a 3 1/2 inch drive.  #hardtobeageek

[CanadaPhil]

15 minutes ago, cinles said:

....Joe is the one who was the visionary. He is the one who came on the scene and changed everyone's life. 

^^^

This!

For better or worse, none of the main players would have achieved ANYTHING without Joe arriving on the scene.

He was the glue that brought them all together.

That glue may have been water soluble at times, but he is the main catalyst for this whole 12 year long journey.... so it was only fitting that he brought it all full circle to remind us all where it started. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[crashdown]

23 hours ago, stealinghome said:

You know, I wonder if the ambiguity in Joe's statement--is Cam "the thing that gets him to the thing" or "the thing that gets him to the thing"--is a nice way of encapsulating part of the reason they couldn't make it work, which (imo) is that whenever Cam is around, Joe is going to be trying to use her talent in his next quest to actualize the future. I don't mean that in a negative way, like Joe is a user or doesn't love Cam or anything like that. But much of their friction in 4x09 was pretty explicitly laid out as Joe being unable to resist monopolizing Cam's time--time that really should have been going toward her own stuff--in his forever quest for the future (and not being particularly grateful about her donating her time either). Whenever they're together, Joe's going to be trying to subsume Cam in his own work, in his own agenda, he just can't not.* In other words, maybe for Joe Cameron is both things, and that's part of why they don't work, and that ambiguity in his speech gets at that.

Yes, I like that: Cam is both thing as object and thing as subject: she pushes Joe, and she's also the thing he's pushing toward. He loves her, but his hyper-focus on whatever his project happens to be can subsume that.  Look at how he snaps at Cam when she tries to give him alternatives to not running the Comet commercial because Haley freaked out over it--he tells her "It's my company." She's pretty stung at that remark, because he's basically telling her that whatever their relationship might be, his relationship with Comet is primary.  (Ironically, Cam had precisely the same Mutiny-is-mine attitude, and it was a big source of the reasons for the explosion of Donna and Cam's relationship.)

 

23 hours ago, stealinghome said:

and I think this makes them not work on two levels. The first is that, obviously, Cam needs to be able to have a work life not subsumed by Joe's, obviously. But the second is that as long as Cam's around, Joe won't be able to prevent himself from getting back into the technological rat race. I've seen in other places people being like "wtf, if Joe is going to teach and 'have kids' that way, why couldn't he and Cam be together," but I would say that to be really happy Joe needs to get out of the race, and he WON'T be able to do that while Cam's around. Her talent will be too tempting, it will draw him back in. To break with the rat race, he had to have a clean break from Cameron too.

Cam and Joe are interesting as a couple.  They clearly love each other, but they just have never seemed to me to click harmoniously together. I think a large part of that is what you're saying about Joe's fascination with Cam's talent.  Joe homed in on that from the first moment he saw Cam, and he never got over it. I think ultimately Gordon was right when he said in 4.01 that they're both trains and they think they should get along great, but ultimately they're always on a collision course rather than traveling together.

 

23 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Whereas while Donna and Cam are definitely creative soulmates and working together is, as so many reviews have eloquently said, how they connect emotionally and show their love for each other, Donna can manage to not subsume Cameron in a way Joe can't; they work together, as equals, it's not Cam working on Donna's agenda. Further, Donna was willing to not return to working with Cam because she didn't want to risk losing Cam again just as they were repairing their relationship ("that's the quickest way to mess up what we have now"). Donna's speech explicitly laid out that Cam is the second thing, the person that the work gets her to, and 4x10 is about both of them saying "we don't really care about the work itself, what we care about is doing it together." So in that sense, maybe it's significant that Donna takes "the thing that gets us to the thing" and turns it into "the project gets us to the people." Because then she can unambiguously say that Cam is the people, not the project, and the slippage inherent in Joe's statement just isn't there. The project is whatever, but Cam's the people, and that's what's important.

The great, symbiotic way they work together has been a constant from season 2 on.  And you're right, "the project gets us to the people" is so much less ambiguous than Joe's "It was you."  Donna and Cam can't help but be a team, and Joe and Cam can never really be one. This really struck me at the beginning of the crashed hard drive scene because of how *happy* both Donna and Cam looked at the prospect of having to fix it.  Cam was grinning the whole time, and Donna's "Hey, here we go" sounded as though they were both about to embark on a delightful vacation.  Working together, even on something like that at a time that should have been highly inconvenient for both of them, is what they both want to be doing more than anything else.

[unicorn23]

On 10/17/2017 at 9:17 AM, kieyra said:

That scene (Donna's conversation with imaginary Cam) was one of the things I'll always remember about this show. I watch too much television to be easily moved by much of it, but that scene was a knife to the heart. 

This. Out of all the wonderful Donna/Cameron scenes, this is probably my favorite (and one of my favorite scenes overall). I remember bawling my eyes out when they were opening up to each other and then I completely lost it when we find out that Donna imagined the entire conversation. Just goes to show just how much the rift affected her and how extremely tough it must have been for her not to have any kind of communication with Cameron.

In regards to the finale: I'm still speechless. The last four episodes of the series were some of the finest episodes I have ever seen and shows that are winding down need to study this last season because everything was handled masterfully. I'm so grateful we got a fourth season and that the writers were given advance notice that this was going to be their last season so they can prepare a proper farewell. I am going to miss this show and the beautiful dynamic that was the Donna and Cameron relationship. We need more relationships like this on TV.

[renatae]

On 10/14/2017 at 10:17 PM, Armchair Critic said:

Seemed like a good fit for Joe at the end since he enjoyed mentoring Haley.

I figure an apt subtitle could be "The Humanization of Joe McMillan."

[Addlepated]

Did anyone notice that just before Donna had the epiphany, she saw a lens flare similar to what Gordon saw when he died?  I've been thinking of it as a little help from beyond by Gordon.

[TC3200]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:01 PM, crashdown said:

By the way, one thing I keep forgetting to mention is that I love everything about the Donna/Cameron scenes EXCEPT for the fact that Haley's computer has a 5 1/4 inch floppy drive.  Those were completely out by '94--it should have been a 3 1/2 inch drive.  #hardtobeageek

Not completely out. Machines had dual floppies in my workplace in 1994 because a ton of data had been stored on 5.25".   In fact, in 2004, they suddenly realized that they needed that old original process design data when clients came back to have us design plant expansion projects.   I slapped together The Ultimate Data Conversion computer from old  parts I had at home and work's old tape drive.  Then spent 4 days copying 3", 5.25", zip drive, CDs, and tapes to DVD.  Solved that problem real fast, lol.

[TC3200]

On 10/21/2017 at 5:33 AM, renatae said:

I figure an apt subtitle could be "The Humanization of Joe McMillan."

Yeah, humanized but still dysfunctional in relationships with women, apparently. It will always disturb me, however it was intended, that Joe called Cameron "the thing" when breaking up.  My inspiration, my muse, the greatest love of my dysfunctional life, the woman who was always too far ahead of me, the relationship that I managed to trash twice, my greatest heartbreak:. Any of those would have been acceptable when losing one you love.  But "thing" indicates a distancing, the  relationship of man with an OBJECT, like his car.  I cringed when he said that to Cameron.  That is just not an appropriate  thing to say to a woman.  I saw it as disrespectful, especially since we saw hints of OCD and control freak behavior toward Cameron.  And grieving over Gordon's death and not much grieving over breaking up with Cam.  I'd have slapped that Joe into next Sunday, and said "Yes, and that's exactly why I need to dump you now."  Joe, dam you, you just can't help being toxic, can you.   Lol

[cinles]

6 hours ago, TC3200 said:

...the relationship that I managed to trash twice,...

 

When did Joe do that? If you have watched the show from the beginning, you know that was the highest form of a compliment he could give Cameron - calling her his thing. Cameron is the one who ran from Joe and in the finale for the last time. Joe has been in love with Cameron since the middle of season one and she screwed the relationship up starting when she immaturely blamed him when Gordon took out her OS at Comdex. 

[kieyra]

(Rewatching from the beginning. As uneven as the first season seemed to me at the time, it's fantastic going back and watching the early genesis of all the characters. For example, just watched the first scene that Cam and Bos ever shared together. I think they had a better handle on things than we realized, maybe.)

(Update: Gahhh Joe builds a blanket fort with tiny Haley and Joanie back in S1, in an episode I'm 100% sure I mocked at the time (the hurricane episode).)

Edited October 27, 2017 by kieyra

[ganesh]

I had to roll my eyes at the airport scene. If you need to keep reminding people you're an adult, then, sorry, no. 

I felt like a lot of this dragged. 

I am amazed that this show not only lasted for so long, but it wasn't abruptly canceled either. 

I think Boz turned out to be my favorite character. 

I was also disappointed to see Hayley with a bf. 

I can't say I wasted my time on the show, but I think it more or less wound down. I'm glad there's spaces in the television landscape where shows like this get a chance. 

I have no idea where Joe could have been working in "humanities" with an office like that. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by ganesh

[paramitch]

This season, and this show, are great examples of how subjective TV viewing can be. I was shocked at how many people found this finale subpar or 'boring.' 

For me this was one of the greatest and most moving finale episodes I've ever seen on television, capping off one of my favorite seasons of TV ever. It was also one of the rare instances during which I cried at something not because I was sad, but just because it made me so moved, and so happy.

Quote

In regards to the finale: I'm still speechless. The last four episodes of the series were some of the finest episodes I have ever seen and shows that are winding down need to study this last season because everything was handled masterfully. I'm so grateful we got a fourth season and that the writers were given advance notice that this was going to be their last season so they can prepare a proper farewell. I am going to miss this show and the beautiful dynamic that was the Donna and Cameron relationship. We need more relationships like this on TV.

Perfectly said, @unicorn23. This was exactly how I felt. I was pretty much grinning (and occasionally sniffling) the entire final 30 minutes of the finale. Then Solisbury Hill came up and I just lost it -- the song choice was so perfect, being about life and love and family and redemption and homecoming, parents and children. Just perfect. A happy ending (if slightly bittersweet).

Quote

A lot of this show has been a knife to the heart. 

For me too, @kieyra. In the best way.

Quote

But it's also such a great way of showing that it's not the end point, it's the process that's important. The journey with the people you love. 

Beautifully put, @stealinghome. And it directly echoes that key line from Donna's speech, the one @crashdown notes in the quote to follow (great minds!): “The one constant is you,” Donna says. “It’s us. The project gets us to the people.” And, even better (also as noted below by Crash), the fact that this echoed Joe's earlier line to Cameron -- that she was the one constant, the "thing" he had been seeking (the fact that he said it to her even as they said goodbye absolutely killed me). But it was so important that Joe recognize that, and that made the moment even more moving for me.

Quote

And you're right, "the project gets us to the people" is so much less ambiguous than Joe's "It was you."  Donna and Cam can't help but be a team, and Joe and Cam can never really be one. This really struck me at the beginning of the crashed hard drive scene because of how *happy* both Donna and Cam looked at the prospect of having to fix it.  Cam was grinning the whole time, and Donna's "Hey, here we go" sounded as though they were both about to embark on a delightful vacation.  Working together, even on something like that at a time that should have been highly inconvenient for both of them, is what they both want to be doing more than anything else. 

And this was lovely as always, @crashdown. That resonated for me on multiple levels.

The final montage was just gorgeous. Watching Donna and Cam joyfully recognize that yes, they are going to work together and it will be splendid no matter what happens because the working together, the joining of minds and energies for the pursuit of an idea -- that's the whole point. Hayley facing a blank page while listening to her father's voice. Joe gazing around his office at the pictures of the people he loves (including Cam), all of whom are right there with him... and then him walking into that roomful of kids.

A pretty perfect and appropriate ending for each character (except poor Gordon). I loved the symmetry of Joe's last line being his very first line on the show. Which -- meanwhile -- brings me to mention how I love how so many moments on "Halt and Catch Fire" were literal closed loops... and so was this. Joe's last line is his first. It's also a direct callback to Cam's beautiful and difficult game "Pilgrim," where to reach the end is also simply to reach the beginning all over again. To me, the implication is lovely and clear: It's about the journey. It always was.

So, like you say, echoing Donna: It's not about the technology. It's about who the technology allows us to become.

And Joe's fate, too, was so apt. Joe wanted kids: he got them. Joe wanted to be the catalyst, the "thing that gets you to the other thing" -- that is the best description of a good teacher that I've ever heard.

Anyway.

I loved this show, and am so grateful a friend got me to pick it back up after season 1. Watching these characters navigate the rough waters of technology, family, friendship, romance and work. The ways in which the show absolutely understood that friendships are their own kinds of romances -- so seeing Gordon's smiling picture on Joe's desk moved me so much. And when Donna and Cam looked at each other and knew they wanted to work together again, my heart soared. And it soared even more when, in a scene straight out of an old-fashioned movie romance or rom-com -- Donna has her revelation then runs out to Cam just in the nick of time, because she's just had the idea that will change their lives. It was perfection.

And I'm not talking about sex or shipping. I just mean that Donna and Cam are endgame; they're meant to work together, side by side, because they are just better together than apart. They get each other. Because they are friends whose friendship is every bit as important as the relationships they have with the men in their lives. And I felt the same way, too, about Gordon's and Joe's. But nothing for me beats the journey those two women endured.

Last but not least: I started out my professional life in tech. I had a degree in media production and worked at production houses, computer animation firms, virtual reality studios, and computer magazines for nearly 10 years before I struck out on my own to be a freelance writer and media/tech publicist. During that 10 years I was usually the only woman (or one of 2 or 3) in the room at any given time.

So to watch this show honor the journeys of women in technology and to put those characters front and center has meant something special to me, and I'll always be thankful to the show's writers and producers for seeing that Donna and Cam were the heart of the show, in the end. And in seeing that, it did them justice.

What a wise, compassionate, and beautiful show this turned out to be. I'll miss it more than I ever expected to.

Edited January 25, 2018 by paramitch
Forgot to add the closed loop stuff (and how Joe's ending also echoes Cam's game)

[Misty79]

I've just finished the final episode at last too.

I'm not sure I've seen a finer depiction of friendship. You're so right paramitch that friendships are their own sort of romance and this show captured that so well, especially in this last season.

It's a punch to the gut to let these characters go. I feel a sense of grief I'm not used to about a TV show winding up, like I'm saying goodbye to something or somebody real. Thank you to the writers and actors (and everyone involved) for delivering some of the most realistic characters and friendships I've seen on my television. 

[paramitch]

20 hours ago, Misty79 said:

I've just finished the final episode at last too.

I'm not sure I've seen a finer depiction of friendship. You're so right paramitch that friendships are their own sort of romance and this show captured that so well, especially in this last season.

It's a punch to the gut to let these characters go. I feel a sense of grief I'm not used to about a TV show winding up, like I'm saying goodbye to something or somebody real. Thank you to the writers and actors (and everyone involved) for delivering some of the most realistic characters and friendships I've seen on my television. 

That's beautifully put, Misty.

For me, my window into fiction is always, always the characters. And the ones I love most are always the ones I am just so happy to have 'met' -- even if just in a work of fiction.

I felt that especially strongly with "Halt and Catch Fire." I realized in the Season 3 finale as they all walked into the ghost of Mutiny HQ for that final meeting that I loved each person in that room, and cared about them.

Funny how a show ostensibly about tech was really about life and (most of all) love. I'm so glad I got to meet those characters.

This was a pretty incredible show. Even if hardly anyone saw it.