These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[Myrelle]

So I guess ConsumptionJack is the more important thing that Dean has to deal with than his own Possession by Archangel.

So fucking typical of this fucking show and Dabb has taken it to new heights of ludicrous.

[Bobcatkitten]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Jack driving the Impala is honestly neither here nor there for me. With the set-up of Dean supposedly teaching Jack about human pleasures, it was a given driving would come up. And Jack going "it`s like I`m you" - in the driver`s seat - does acknowledge that this is usually Dean`s place. Actually, in this recent episode Jack acted like Dean had plenty of authority. He never said anything like "please take me hunting, we don`t have to tell Sam" or anything. So at the moment, I`m better with the character than I have been so far this Season. 

What annoys me is the prospect of more Nickifer. You just know Bucklemming will give that lots of space and I couldn`t care less.     

Yes I think Jack driving the Impala is awesome and the way they are setting it up makes sense. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

So I guess ConsumptionJack is the more important thing that Dean has to deal with than his own Possession by Archangel.

So fucking typical of this fucking show and Dabb has taken it to new heights of ludicrous.

There is the spoiler in the episode 8 synopsis that two people end up altered.  I have to think this is Sam and Nick.

I'm guessing Nick will say yes to Michael and Sam will end up the king of hell or something.  (Which would fit Dabb saying that Sam's leadership is part of a bigger story he couldnt' talk about).  Then the "bigger toll" on Dean will be him having once again to put aside his traumas to deal with everyone elses. 

Dabb sucks.

[Aeryn13]

You mean from the Bucklemming interview? I think they meant the super-monsters as traps for hunters. Because Bucklemming and Dabb talk at cross-purposes, I totally got the feeling that at the point of the interview Bucklemming totally thought this was a super-secret plot so she only alluded to it. Whereas it was already out and olds news.  

Now at least the super-monsters, I can legitimately see Dean viewing as a bigger and more important thing. And it is connected to the possession. However, he won`t tackle it as personal trauma. Because for this? They use Nickifer`s endless tale of woe. 

Quote

and Sam will end up the king of hell or something.

I don`t think that`s the case only because, unlike the Boyking destiny, Dabb is clearly trying to push Sam as a superleader for the good side. He will probably not besmirch that in any way.  

And I think Pellegrino is in 7 and 9 but not 8 so if he says yes to Michael - which is highly likely - it `s probably gonna be at the end of 7.

I could be wrong of course but the phrasing "join up with a surprising ally" and "bla bla, something that will alter the course of two lives" strike me as typical stupid summary writing. It probably ends up being something super-lame. The two lives could be two Waywards and I wouldn`t be surprised. Even if they aren`t IN the episode.

Cas might end up altered though. Either dying (and going to the Empty) or losing his grace. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You mean from the Bucklemming interview? I think they meant the super-monsters as traps for hunters. Because Bucklemming and Dabb talk at cross-purposes, I totally got the feeling that at the point of the interview Bucklemming totally thought this was a super-secret plot so she only alluded to it. Whereas it was already out and olds news.  

Now at least the super-monsters, I can legitimately see Dean viewing as a bigger and more important thing. And it is connected to the possession

I hope you're right about this.

I can't believe that they've already turned the Michael!Dean possession sl into the same old, same old for Dean.

But still, only Dabb could have turned it around so quickly in that way.

It's like that, if nothing else, they had planned all along.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

 

But Sam doesn't care if Jack's inexperience gets Castiel killed? Or does he think Cas is a better hunter than Dean?

As for Sam "learning his lesson" from what happened with Maggie, I will believe it when we see him acknowledge this on screen. All we saw was Mary telling him he was a natural and was doing a great job, Dean being all supportive and complimentary, and AU Bobby sincerely apologizing for criticizing Sam's decision about Maggie. Why would he think he needed to change his approach to anything?

I can't remember the who or what of the spoiler that a death affects Sam in a major way. I'm assuming we haven't seen this yes, since Maggie and Not!Bobby both survived the Nightmare episode. I was SO sure it was going to be Not!Charlie last night, and I'm still not convince it won't be, eventually (because can Show resist the delicious soapiness of her dying on his watch twice?). Is (omg her name has escaped me - Charlie actress) scheduled for any upcoming episodes?

If not her, then who?

And to the bolded, he's not only not changing his approach, he's doubling down on it, guilting Not!Charlie into staying in the life.

EDITED to take this part to BvJ. Lordy, posting is complicated, LOL!

Edited November 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

I doubt they will ever kill off Charlie again. Their twitter stans- the only people they fear - would rip them apart. 

Not sure someone will get killed. Dabb kept it vague with his "being the leader is great until someone gets hurt bla bla". So last week's episode probably already was the "leadership burdens" episode. Which, haha hahahaha. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I doubt they will ever kill off Charlie again. Their twitter stans- the only people they fear - would rip them apart. 

Not sure someone will get killed. Dabb kept it vague with his "being the leader is great until someone gets hurt bla bla". So last week's episode probably already was the "leadership burdens" episode. Which, haha hahahaha. 

True that. Erghh.

Oh, I thought someone was actually supposed to die. Never mind then. Sigh.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

unlike the Boyking destiny, Dabb is clearly trying to push Sam as a superleader for the good side. He will probably not besmirch that in any way.  

I won't be surprised if they decide that Sam being a super duper leader will actually take his skills to hell and reform it into a new heaven or something absurd like that. He'll give an inspiring speech and get all the demons who bailed when he yelled at them to join forces against Michael!Nick and then convince them to use their powers for good. I am only 2% kidding.

[Myrelle]

On 11/14/2018 at 7:45 PM, ILoveReading said:

I was bored and finally got around to watching the full afternoon panel for MinnCon.  There was a question where someone asked what the worst thing the brothers have ever/said did to each other.  Jensen said its when Dean does things behind Sam's back.  Then he kind of paused and said, that is something that will continue to happen throughout the series..  I'm not sure if that was a spoiler or not.

I just watched this and FWIW, it did sound like a spoiler to me, but tbh, after last night's episode I can easily see why Dean would do something behind Sam's control-freak back; and, tbh again, I'd welcome it even though I'm sure it wouldn't, in any way, end well for Dean-not with Dabb running things anyway. And again FWIW, JA did add on there that most of the time when Dean does that it's because he's contemplating a self-sacrificial act. 

Oh, and in watching just this segment, I was also reminded of exactly why I stopped watching the J2 panels a while ago-MAN! is JP long-winded and prone to rambling.

It drives me nuts.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I just watched this and FWIW, it did sound like a spoiler to me, but tbh, after last night's episode I can easily see why Dean would do something behind Sam's control-freak back; and, tbh again, I'd welcome it even though I'm sure it wouldn't, in any way, end well for Dean-not with Dabb running things anyway. And again FWIW, JA did add on there that most of the time when Dean does that it's because he's contemplating a self-sacrificial act. 

Misha said at a con that that the empty comes into play, and that he is not playing the empty keeper.  My guess is that Jack needs his grace to survive so Dean is going attempt to get it back and somehow go into the empty.

There was a vague reference to seeing Billie again.  I'm guessing Dean asks for her help.  I'm also guessing Dean is going to be responsible for Lucifer getting free too. 

I'm also expecting Sam's "Do you think this is a good idea" and Dean saying yes to be validated as not a good idea.  

Edited November 16, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Question: Can you tell us if Castiel will be in Supernatural‘s 300th episode? Anyone else we’ll be excited to see? —Shannon
Ausiello: The answer to your first question is you betcha. “There’s a little bit of time travel that comes into play in the 300th episode, and we’ll see a different version of Cas,” his portrayer Misha Collins reveals. As for whether any familiar faces will return for the milestone installment, executive producer Brad Buckner would only say with a smile, “Maybe.”

https://tvline.com/2018/11/20/homecoming-season-2-cast-spoilers-julia-roberts-returning/

This sounds like everything else Dabb does.  He's trying to cram to much in.  We know that it had to be heavily re-written.

Edited November 20, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://tvline.com/2018/11/20/homecoming-season-2-cast-spoilers-julia-roberts-returning/

This sounds like everything else Dabb does.  He's trying to cram to much in.  We know that it had to be heavily re-written.

And are there robots?  And does Dean turn into a girl (briefly)?  

Maybe they're doing a live version of the Fanfiction play!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

And are there robots?  And does Dean turn into a girl (briefly)?  

Maybe they're doing a live version of the Fanfiction play!

Aliens. Robot aliens.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Aliens. Robot aliens.

With tentacles?

** Shows herself out **

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

With tentacles?

** Shows herself out **

Nah--they've already done the tentacle porn ep.

[7kstar]

Okay just reread an article and talked about how we thought in season 9 Abaddon was the big bad but only for the midseason and then poof it switched to Metatron.  The article talked about what a waste that was, as Metatron was really a snooze fest. That Abaddon was the more interesting big bad story to show or tell.

So I figure Michael is the bait and switch.  He looks like he should be the big bad but two eps and he disappears and we're told he'll be back and scary but do I believe them...not so much.  It's kind of bitter when Carver did a better job...

I think this is why Dabb didn't get WS.  He doesn't know how to figure out what fans really want and Supernatural had a built-in fan base.  To build it you have to have interesting storylines that make sense and be able to expand them over time.  I don't think as a showrunner he has shown he can do this. He rushes the moments and that is what is really causing so many issues.  It's like bad fanfiction writing where you jam too much in on paragraph skimming over the meat. 

I wish he would surprise me, but I'm afraid I've got too strong of a handle on the normal bait and switch.  A few scenes of scary Michael doesn't make him a good threat.   Right now I wish Season 14 was the end because I'm not sure I'll go further with the storytelling I'm seeing on screen.  The richness of the show makes me mad that they do such a poor job.  I'm not talking about this character getting attention more than this one.  The history and questions that could be answered.

I get plot holes but even though we never got the answer of why Dean's eyes bled in Bloody Mary I had faith that the writers knew the answers.  I don't have faith now and that makes me sad.

[ILoveReading]

I read on Tumblr that Mark P gave an interview at the 300th and he slipped and said Lucifer, rather than Nick.  Something about tracking a demon.  This was supposedly episode 11. 

So this confirms my suspicions that when they go into the empty to get Jack's grace, Lucifer is going to escape. 

So this means Sam will probably get to confront and kill both Lucifer and Michael.

This season is so predictable.  I called TMNS stopping Michael off screen, and I called the whole empty thing too.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I read on Tumblr that Mark P gave an interview at the 300th and he slipped and said Lucifer, rather than Nick.  Something about tracking a demon.  This was supposedly episode 11. 

So this confirms my suspicions that when they go into the empty to get Jack's grace, Lucifer is going to escape. 

So this means Sam will probably get to confront and kill both Lucifer and Michael.

This season is so predictable.  I called TMNS stopping Michael off screen, and I called the whole empty thing too.

I'm starting to hate how good you are at this! LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

I despise Dabb & Company. Despise them.

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I despise Dabb & Company. Despise them.

We all knew it was coming the minute Dabb changed his story to "nothing ever dies" and ERL said he was her favorite charater to write for.*

Dabb is a coward. 

*That is meant as a generalized statement, not a literal everyone on this board.

Edited November 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

*That is meant as a generalized statement, not a literal everyone on this board.

Lol! Disclaimers seem to be necessary today!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

We all knew it was coming the minute Dabb changed his story to "nothing ever dies" and ERL said he was her favorite charater to write for.*

Dabb is a coward. 

*That is meant as a generalized statement, not a literal everyone on this board.

Oh yeah, it's not a surprise, it just stokes the flames of my loathing.

[auntvi]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

We all knew it was coming the minute Dabb changed his story to "nothing ever dies" and ERL said he was her favorite charater to write for.*

You won’t get any disagreement from me on how loathsome both Lucifer and ERL are. 

[gonzosgirrl]

From the regular spoilers thread:

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Given that Lucifer died with Jack's Grace,he should be able to resurrect himself in the Empty.

But isn't that the very definition of angel 'death' - the light we see exploding from them is their grace burning out? Lucifer had his own and Jack's grace - it should all be gone. I know - they already threw that out the window with Cas's resurrection and Gabriel's yeah-you-saw-my-burned-out-wings return. Damnit, I hate SO MUCH that they have ruined any sense of finality at all. How are we supposed to invest in any character's (good or bad) demise? Do they have any clue how badly they are damaging the show? I've read that it's all about the binge-watchability now, but IMO, they are hurting that even more when you will more easily remember what they told us to be true in the past. I know things have to change/evolve, but I also think that you have to have at least some basic tenets, some hard and unchanging truths to count on, otherwise how do you believe in anything? Bah.

Edited November 23, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

? Lucifer had his own and Jack's grace - it should all be gone. I

I think this goes back to the comments MP made about nephelim grace. My theory is that Jacks Grace is immune to the arch angel blade death kind of how Demon Dean became more human he could get out if the Devil's trap. And we sawi  13.1 that Angel banishing sigils didn't work on Jack because if his human side.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think this goes back to the comments MP made about nephelim grace. My theory is that Jacks Grace is immune to the arch angel blade death kind of how Demon Dean became more human he could get out if the Devil's trap. And we sawi  13.1 that Angel banishing sigils didn't work on Jack because if his human side.

I am sure it will be explained away, probably along the lines of your theory, but I still call bullshit. The burnt wings should've been proof positive,  as they've been since S4. They spoiled that with Cas and now all bets are off. They will pull whatever is neccessary out of their butts at any time. Storytelling means nothing. And if Jack is immune to the angel blade, why was Lucifer able to slit his throat with it in the first place? 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

. And if Jack is immune to the angel blade, why was Lucifer able to slit his throat with it in the first place? 

I theorize that will be explained that Jack's human side was wounded by the blade.  I know it's stupid but I can see that being their escape route to get Lucifer played by Mark P back into the show.

[catrox14]

I was watching Supergirl and thought I recognized the actress who played the werepire or whatever it was in 14.2 with Michael!Dean   But I wasn't sure and I checked IMDB and noticed this.
She's slated to be in 14.9....hmmm. 

Quote

 

Supernatural (TV Series)
Melanie

- Episode #14.9 (2018) ... Melanie

- Gods and Monsters (2018) ... Melanie

 

[gonzosgirrl]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was watching Supergirl and thought I recognized the actress who played the werepire or whatever it was in 14.2 with Michael!Dean   But I wasn't sure and I checked IMDB and noticed this.
She's slated to be in 14.9....hmmm. 

A flashback maybe? 

[Res]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A flashback maybe? 

More than likely. 

Or she's the new Micheal *eyes rolling stupid storytelling*

[BoxManLocke]

On 24/11/2018 at 5:21 AM, catrox14 said:

I was watching Supergirl and thought I recognized the actress who played the werepire or whatever it was in 14.2 with Michael!Dean   But I wasn't sure and I checked IMDB and noticed this.
She's slated to be in 14.9....hmmm. 

 

A flashback.

Four months later. I know Dabb loves his "long game", but does he know people watch this stuff live ?

 

The Michael stuff was barely interesting enough to skip a single episode and I'm supposed to still give a crap in January.

 

I can't with this dude

[ILoveReading]

Like sands through the hourglass this is the end of the Supernatural part of Supernatural days of our lives.

This sounds straight out of a soap opera. 

It sounds like the Dabb/BL interviews about Dean not really suffering that many effects and is immune was pretty accurate. 

Its seems like Nick is getting the actual post possession story line.  Words can't experess how much I don't care about Nick and who killed his family and his choice between love and power.  (Michael wants him as a vessel.  Calling it now). 

I don't care about Jack's illness.  We all know he isnt' going anywhere. *

*again, general we, not refering to everyone on the board.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

At least noone waxed poetic about SuperLeaderSam.

Though in general, noone had much to say about the brothers in general. The article is very focused on various guest stars. You wouldn`t know there had been a Michael storyline for Dean from reading it. Okay, there is a Destiel-bit at the end because the writer is a shipper. 

This is the spoiler tumblr, right? She said she loved the episode and she is at least Dean-positive and not overly biased in any direction so the episode itself might not overly suck. 

I marvel at how apparently it was screened for the press/bloggers before the 100th party and yet nothing came out. If a new Hollywood movie with super-tight security and NDAs comes out for a press screening, five minutes after the showing the entire plot is on the internet. Kind of hilarious that small TV shows have better kept secrets.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is the spoiler tumblr, right? She said she loved the episode and she is at least Dean-positive and not overly biased in any direction so the episode itself might not overly suck. 

I'm not sure if she is or not, but if its the one I'm thinking of she loves Dean fussing over people.  So I don't put much faith in how an episode plays out for Dean based on her word. 

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I marvel at how apparently it was screened for the press/bloggers before the 100th party and yet nothing came out.

What this ep screened?  I didn't see anything about anyone else getting to see it.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What this ep screened?  I didn't see anything about anyone else getting to see it.

The spoiler tumblr said yes, that she had seen the entire episode already at a screening. She answered several asks about it. I sent one in about Dean but didn`t get answered (yet). 

She did say it would further the main plot. So the guess about Nick becoming Michael`s vessel might be right on the money. Especially since Pellegrino is in ep 9 "The Spear" which, apart from likely Kaia!Sue also most likely has Michael. 

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The spoiler tumblr said yes, that she had seen the entire episode already at a screening. She answered several asks about it. I sent one in about Dean but didn`t get answered (yet). 

She did say it would further the main plot. So the guess about Nick becoming Michael`s vessel might be right on the money. Especially since Pellegrino is in ep 9 "The Spear" which, apart from likely Kaia!Sue also most likely has Michael. 

Do you have a link?  I'd like to send in another Dean ask?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Do you have a link?  I'd like to send in another Dean ask?

It`s here

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

It`s here

thank you

[ILoveReading]

Quote

Is it too hopeful to wish that nick/luci will be permanently killed off?

ibelieveinthelittletreetopper Said:

Yes

I can never use tumblr.  But this for me is more proof that Michael is going to end up possessing Nick.

Even though events the time line seems like that stuff with TMNS happened before the werewolf stuff, I still think we're going to find out out Michael wanted a better vessel.  That Dean was damaged to easily.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Even though events the time line seems like that stuff with TMNS happened before the werewolf stuff, I still think we're going to find out out Michael wanted a better vessel.  That Dean was damaged to easily.

Michael`d own fault for not just snapping his fingers and dealing with TMNS on the spot. He could have broken her legs just like that. I`d love to have seen her ridiculous flipping and posing then.  I would have Black Knight-Monty-Pythoned her ass just for shits and giggles if I was him. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

Quote

SUPERNATURAL
“The Spear” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

THE BEST LAID PLANS – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) enlist the help of their pal Garth (guest star DJ Qualls) to gain inside information on what Michael may be planning. The brothers split up to each go after weapons that can aid in their fight against the Archangel, but this may be a fight our heroes cannot win. The episode was directed by Amyn Kaderali and written by Robert Berens (#1409). Original Airdate 12/13/2018.

So this ends spec that Michael may be hiding in Dean or has any interest him in him whatsoever. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought that speculation was ended weeks ago when Dabb said Michael was truly gone from Dean. 

[BabySpinach]

1. Why did Michael leave Dean?

2. What the fuck is he currently up to?

Once these two are answered (in probably the least inspired and most creatively bankrupt ways possible), I'll finally be able to dial back my emotional investment to season 12 levels. Meanwhile, I'm just caught in this cranky arbitrary middle ground between cursing yet another aborted Dean story and wanting to see what happens next before making a judgement.

Edited November 28, 2018 by BabySpinach

[Pondlass1]

16 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

aborted Dean story

The only 'Dean story' that could possibly garner ratings and stick around for more than 2 episodes would be some horrid spell that joined the brothers at the hip. Because that's all the fans seem to want these days. 

Thank goodness I didn't have my hopes too high for a Dean/Michael SL lasting to the hiatus.

[Aeryn13]

The spoiler tumblr also said that she considered ep 7 to be Bucklemmings strongest scripts with the caveat that the "ugh, Bucklemming" things would all be in the Nick scenes whereas the Dean/Sam/Cas/Jack/Rowena stuff were some of the best emotional scenes. 

Sounds like while Jack is certainly the A-plot, it`s all emo. That leaves the Nick story to "move the plot forward" so in typical nonsensical Bucklemming way, that would also point to a Michael possession. The only point against it right now would be Bucklemming wanting to keep Nick for future Lucifer. 

From the description, I don`t think this would be the episode where anyone goes to the Empty, though. My guess would be episode 8 which has Cas "huge sacrifice" to help heaven. Now he might kill himself to go to the Empty and bring angels back? Somehow? We know he himself will be back right away.    

[ILoveReading]

Sounds like thing that is going to take a bigger tole on Dean is Jack's illness.   Can't say i'm surprised.  I didn't really expect that to be about Dean.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sounds like thing that is going to take a bigger tole on Dean is Jack's illness.   Can't say i'm surprised.  I didn't really expect that to be about Dean.

I thought this also from the last episode.

It seems to me that the Michael!Dean sl has been fourth to LeaderSam, WoobieJack, and TraumatizedNick/Lucifer.

So YUCK! to that, and I hope things change drastically in the second half-like from Soapernatural back to Supernatural-to begin with.

[catrox14]

JFC. This just pisses me off.  Can Dean's pain EVER be about Dean? Fffffffffffff u, Dabb et al.

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

1. Why did Michael leave Dean?

2. What the fuck is he currently up to?

Once these two are answered (in probably the least inspired and most creatively bankrupt ways possible), I'll finally be able to dial back my emotional investment to season 12 levels. Meanwhile, I'm just caught in this cranky arbitrary middle ground between cursing yet another aborted Dean story and wanting to see what happens next before making a judgement.

And I think Dabb, et al are counting on Dean fans to keep doing this so they never finish anything because we live on the fucking dregs they barely dish out to us.

[gonzosgirrl]

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I think Dabb, et al are counting on Dean fans to keep doing this so they never finish anything because we live on the fucking dregs they barely dish out to us.

It was surprisingly easy (almost a relief?) not to have a new episode last week. I never, ever thought I'd feel that way about Supernatural. :(  These spoilers revolving around Pellegrino and Nickifer and the possibility he will also be Michael (Nichaelfer?) literally make me want to cry. I only follow a few people on Twitter now, admittedly all Dean-centric fans, but I just can't imagine where they get the idea that anyone wants Nick's story, never mind more Lucifer. And not only are they screwing us over with the Dean/Michael story, they are completely negating Dean's sacrifice in every way. There are no in-story repercussions, no possession aftermath, and no actual Lucifer kill. Scratch crying, I want to scream.