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These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

catrox14

By catrox14
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Spoilers With Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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Casseiopeia
Casseiopeia

The caption should be..."Dean looking for his dropped storyline"

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So far she's chosen an institution that actively tried to murder her children over said children, Lucifer's kid over her sons, an old man (Not!Bobby) over her sons, and an entire world of strangers ov

ahrtee
ahrtee

Also non-snarky:  I know I was hoping that the story would focus on Dean/Michael and not Sam learning to be a leader, Jack learning to be human, and Mary/Bobby.  I was hoping that we would get to actu

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catrox14

catrox14

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(edited)
19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn’t like Dabb’s words about how Sam will drill Dean down about everything.  Sounds like Sam is going to expect Dean to deal with this in a certain way. 

 

That's pretty far par for the course. Everyone will tell Dean how he does emotions wrong. It's the same shit, different day.

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

Just now, catrox14 said:

I cannot understand how Michael is the big bad if Kaia's spear can harm him.  Like just a little poke with it made him decide to vacate Dean? I mean that just makes Dean and Michael look weak and you know, that seems like a super fun thing to do to Dean...LOL.   

Angels are not immune to magic.  Lucifer was taken down with a spiked bottle of Rowena magic.  

If Kaia's spear is magical, Michael is susceptible.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don’t honk your wrong.  Pretty sure Maggie gets killed.  But I think it’s also likely that dean has no tolerance (certainly not with his current issues) for leading these people — which means Insuspect that he’ll help Sam get back up on he horse.  

Just look at the Wonder Woman plot from the Justice League movie (hidden for spoilers) 

  Reveal hidden contents

She got Steve killed, in her mind, by leading.  So she dropped out of a hero role for several decades.  She just now is coming back.  That’s her big DC character arc.  

It’s a pretty standard concept but still worthwhile IMO. 

Taking this to "Bitch vs Jerk" just to be safe.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn’t like Dabb’s words about how Sam will drill Dean down about everything.  Sounds like Sam is going to expect Dean to deal with this in a certain way. 

It depends on what Sam is looking for, in my opinion. If Sam is asking because he wants to help Dean or is worried about him.... well that would be stupid in my opinion, because Sam should know better. And if he doesn't... *sigh* ...I'm telling you, I would just love it if Dean ends up acting weirdly and like he's having issues and preferably in the garage, maybe fusing with Baby, if Sam just walked up to him with a crowbar and handed it to him and looked sideways towards an old, maybe junkier car, eyes saying "have at it," and then just walked away. I would. Love. That.

But if Sam is asking also or mostly because he's looking for information about Michael, I would entirely understand that, because they should be concerned about Michael and if Michael is planning something dangerous by his leaving Dean - like he was going to take a trip to purgatory to find some really nasty monster (like a leviathan) that he didn't want anyone knowing about - they would want to know that sooner rather than later, so I think questioning Dean wouldn't be out of order, myself.

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catrox14

catrox14

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(edited)
1 hour ago, SueB said:

Angels are not immune to magic.  Lucifer was taken down with a spiked bottle of Rowena magic.  

If Kaia's spear is magical, Michael is susceptible.

And I bitched about it then.  It's stupid that a spell overturns an archangel...it's stupid that a spell could remove GOD'S CURSE in s11. LOL. 

It still makes Michael look far too weak.

Edited by catrox14
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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn’t like Dabb’s words about how Sam will drill Dean down about everything.  Sounds like Sam is going to expect Dean to deal with this in a certain way. 

 

But of course.

Because Dean does feelings wrong always and forever, especially in these latter seasons.

So not looking forward to this kind of a redundancy.

The first forty times was plenty.

Edited by Myrelle
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tessathereaper

tessathereaper

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn’t like Dabb’s words about how Sam will drill Dean down about everything.  Sounds like Sam is going to expect Dean to deal with this in a certain way. 

What else is new?  Sam always wants Dean to deal with things Sam's way and if Dean doesn't it's DEAN who has the problem and who will be criticized and berated until he falls in line, apologizes for not doing his feelings right and starts acting like how Sam wants him.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

That's

4 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

What else is new?  Sam always wants Dean to deal with things Sam's way and if Dean doesn't it's DEAN who has the problem and who will be criticized and berated until he falls in line, apologizes for not doing his feelings right and starts acting like how Sam wants him.

That's kind of the way the show has it work for both brothers, in my opinion. When Sam gets all emotional and talky, Dean often either ignores him ("Everybody Loves a Clown") or tells him to bury it and/or shut up about it ("Sam, Interrupted" and "The Mentalists").

That's just how the show rolls. It's one thing the brothers haven't ever really compromised on or understood each other about, so I don't expect them to start now all of a sudden.

DeeDee79

DeeDee79

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's

That's kind of the way the show has it work for both brothers, in my opinion. When Sam gets all emotional and talky, Dean often either ignores him ("Everybody Loves a Clown") or tells him to bury it and/or shut up about it ("Sam, Interrupted" and "The Mentalists").

That's just how the show rolls. It's one thing the brothers haven't ever really compromised on or understood each other about, so I don't expect them to start now all of a sudden.

While you're not wrong it happens to Dean more often IMO because it comes from characters other than just Sam ( Bobby, Frank, Elliot Ness ). Those are just off the top of my head.

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mertensia

mertensia

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's

That's kind of the way the show has it work for both brothers, in my opinion. When Sam gets all emotional and talky, Dean often either ignores him ("Everybody Loves a Clown") or tells him to bury it and/or shut up about it ("Sam, Interrupted" and "The Mentalists").

That's just how the show rolls. It's one thing the brothers haven't ever really compromised on or understood each other about, so I don't expect them to start now all of a sudden.

But that's also realistic. Siblings do that. 

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

That's kind of the way the show has it work for both brothers, in my opinion. When Sam gets all emotional and talky, Dean often either ignores him ("Everybody Loves a Clown") or tells him to bury it and/or shut up about it ("Sam, Interrupted" and "The Mentalists").

That's just how the show rolls. It's one thing the brothers haven't ever really compromised on or understood each other about, so I don't expect them to start now all of a sudden.

This is also a learned behavior for Dean, so its not surprising he does it to other people. 

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 ...I'm telling you, I would just love it if Dean ends up acting weirdly and like he's having issues and preferably in the garage, maybe fusing with Baby, if Sam just walked up to him with a crowbar and handed it to him and looked sideways towards an old, maybe junkier car, eyes saying "have at it," and then just walked away. I would. Love. That.

I would like something like this too

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dabb also said that Dean feels besieged on all sides.

IMO, true growth for him would start with and involve telling those who are besieging him to cut it out for the time being and until he can get his sea legs under him again.

If ever there was a time I wished SPN was on Netflix, this is it, so that Dean could just tell them all to fuck off.

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Lemuria

Lemuria

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

maybe fusing with Baby,

Maybe it's just me, but fusing with Baby sounds a little dirty.  LOL  Maybe Michael was a little kinky?

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dabb also said that Dean feels besieged on all sides.

That's an interesting statement.  Who else is giving him tsurris?  AFAIAC, no one else, including Mary, would have any right to.

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catrox14

catrox14

  • Author
39 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

That's an interesting statement.  Who else is giving him tsurris?  AFAIAC, no one else, including Mary, would have any right to.

That didn't stop Mary in s12 from telling Dean he wasn't a child and misconstruing his reasons for wanting her in their life in s12. I'm pretty sure she'll have a scene where she dresses Dean down for insulting Sam's beard. LOL I'm only half kidding about that but she is kind of petty IMO.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bets on who tells Dean to suck it up first?

2:1 Not Bobby

5:1 NougatBaby

10:1 The Chief

Even money: Mommy Dearest

Long shot: Nickifer, who adds that he knows what it's really like to be possessed by an archangel and you don't see him sitting around feeling sorry for himself.

I'm going to guess Sam, though it won't be couched as crudely as that but more to make him feel guilty:

"I know it was hard, but I need you to help me win this fight.  You're the only one who knows what Michael wants.  We don't have time.  You'll feel better when you get back to work." (unspoken: so get off your ass and stop feeling sorry for yourself.)

The others will probably be more direct.

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Lemuria

Lemuria

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Long shot: Nickifer, who adds that he knows what it's really like to be possessed by an archangel and you don't see him sitting around feeling sorry for himself.

So...Dean should use Nickifer's approach to things and kill a few of the annoying people in the Bunker?  Works for me.

39 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

"I know it was hard, but I need you to help me win this fight.  You're the only one who knows what Michael wants.  We don't have time.  You'll feel better when you get back to work." (unspoken: so get off your ass and stop feeling sorry for yourself.)

Gee, it would be nice if Sam would give the same speech to Jack, wouldn't it?

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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Warning this will only make you more bitter.

We get to watch Dean  "adjust" to everyone living in the bunker

Kaia Sue Wayard really did take out Michael

Surprise Dabb is excited about a Jack episode. 

Yeah, it all sounds so predictable again and some more.

Dean does feelings wrong. Someone will tell him that in one way or another and then he will see the light and apologize for being a dick while simultaneously propping and pimping that someone who tells him that he was wrong(my money is on Sam again and some more), and knowing Dabb he'll probably make him apologize to everyone and anyone who's living in the bunker, too.

ETA: Oh, and one of the Wayward Sues(yes, Kaiai, I'm sure) takes out Michael

What a surprise-Not.

When Dabb speaks, I cringe and dread it. 

16 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

So...Dean should use Nickifer's approach to things and kill a few of the annoying people in the Bunker?  Works for me.

Gee, it would be nice if Sam would give the same speech to Jack, wouldn't it?

ITA with this.

All of it.

Edited by Myrelle
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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

58 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm going to guess Sam, though it won't be couched as crudely as that but more to make him feel guilty:

"I know it was hard, but I need you to help me win this fight.  You're the only one who knows what Michael wants.  We don't have time.  You'll feel better when you get back to work." (unspoken: so get off your ass and stop feeling sorry for yourself.)

The others will probably be more direct.

Yep. Dean's experience, Dean's trauma, will be about everyone but Dean. Same shit, different day.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

Quote

Question: Now that Dean is back on Supernatural, what is next for his character? Will we see how being possessed affected him, or hints that maybe Michael never left? —Adder
Ausiello: You’re assuming that Dean remembers what happened while he was possessed. As we’ll learn in this Thursday’s episode, “His memories of what Michael did are pretty spotty,” executive producer Andrew Dabb previews. “A lot of it is him discovering, ‘Oh, my God — this happened. Oh, my God, that happened.’ That really takes us through not just [this week], but a few episodes as we move forward.” Plus, the hunter, “in classic Dean fashion, feels kind of responsible for” for the army of supermonsters Michael created, even though it’s totally not his fault.

Nothing new really.  But it sounds as if the flashbacks aren't really going to be about expanding the character further but just basically the same scene over and over.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its also another case of Dabb being a lying liar who lies.  He said that Dean was awake and aware of everything that was going on.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if this guy has ADD. Or if anybody on the staff speaks to each other. How can they have such wildly differing commentary, especially on episodes that were already filmed? I mean being purposefully vague, or even titillating in order to build excitement, I get. But this is, in turns, outright lying, baiting & switching and pandering. WTAF is happening here?

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catrox14

catrox14

  • Author
25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm seriously starting to wonder if this guy has ADD. Or if anybody on the staff speaks to each other. How can they have such wildly differing commentary, especially on episodes that were already filmed? I mean being purposefully vague, or even titillating in order to build excitement, I get. But this is, in turns, outright lying, baiting & switching and pandering. WTAF is happening here?

A complete lack of respect for the audience.

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Res

Res

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's not even a Dean thing. All of it is a mess of non-continuity, canon-busting and just plain bad storytelling. Add in a management staff that can't get their stories straight and it's downright embarrassing.

And that's something that should be sent to the head of the network, etc., in addition to the lack of respect to the audience that made the show what it is today.

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7kstar

7kstar

5 hours ago, Res said:

And that's something that should be sent to the head of the network, etc., in addition to the lack of respect to the audience that made the show what it is today

.Unfortunately, if the ratings are good then it doesn't matter.  People would have to stop watching which would only get the show canceled.  So it's a lose/lose for everyone.  sigh.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)

Since I predicted the Kaia twist.  I'm going to attempt to predict the next big twist. 

Jack is sick and dying.  He needs his grace back.  We know the empty comes into play.  Dabb said there are no plans to bring back Lucifer but that could change.  

  So Dean will suggest going into the empty to get Jack's grace back from Lucifer.  Things will go sideways.  Jack will get enough to live but Lucifer will escape with the rest 

In the end we'll get another Lucifer vs Michael showdown.  But since this episode established Dean is too weak it will end up being Sam.  He'll get to confront Lucifer and Michael. 

Dean will cheer from the sidelines.  He won't get an assist.

Edited by ILoveReading
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Myrelle

Myrelle

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

In the end we'll get another Lucifer vs Michael showdown.  But since this episode established Dean is too weak it will end up being Sam.  He'll get to confront Lucifer and Michael. 

Again.

Complete with Dean even naming himself too weak again.

 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean will cheer from the sidelines.  He won't get an assist.

And again.

Redundancy thy name is the Supernatural Writing Room at this point and IMO.

Sadly, I think your spec is right on.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)

Looks like another fight scene, without Dean.

Unless this is a literal teaching Jack to dance scene. (I think Alex is green), then I'm glad Dean isnt' there.  Wit the way the writing is these days, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Edited by ILoveReading
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Myrelle

Myrelle

As regards the question of why Michael left Dean posed by Baby Spinach in the episode thread...

Just curious-who else here thinks as I do that the answer to this one will spell the end of the Michael!Dean vesseling connection for good in this myth-arc storyline?

Especially given what Eugenie Ross-Lemming said in her now infamous most recent interview.

18 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Thinking about the antibody comment, I bet the spear somehow made Dean immune so if Michael tries to come around again Dean won't be able to say yes.  Just like the mark of cain.

Oops. Missed this, but yeah, I hear you.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)
3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

As regards the question of why Michael left Dean posed by Baby Spinach in the episode thread...

Just curious-who else here thinks as I do that the answer to this one will spell the end of the Michael!Dean vesseling connection for good in this myth-arc storyline?

Especially given what Eugenie Ross-Lemming said in her now infamous most recent interview.

I do.  Like, I speculated, the spear somehow tainted Dean's vessel and Michael had to flee, than Wayward Sue can be given credit for saving Dean.  Then if they bring in real Michael, Dean is automatically inelidgeable, just like with the mark.  I've been predicting Michael Sam since we got the spoiler 7 months ago.

Edited by ILoveReading
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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I do.  Like, I speculated, the spear somehow tainted Dean's vessel and Michael had to flee, than Wayward Sue can be given credit for saving Dean.  Then if they bring in real Michael, Dean is automatically inelidgeable, just like with the mark.  I've been predicting Michael Sam since we got the spoiler 7 months ago.

But then I wonder why Michael had to leave at that precise moment, just before he confronted Sam, Mary, and Bobby. His fight with Kaia must have taken place before that, so unless the wound had a corrosive effect, he seemed to bear it pretty well. And even then, he smote the vampire bait girl just before he left Dean, so he can't have been in that bad of a shape. This only kind of makes sense if Michael fought Kaia in-between him setting the trap and going to Sam and co.'s location, but that seems really unlikely. The timeline is just too muddled right now. 

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Myrelle

Myrelle

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I do.  Like, I speculated, the spear somehow tainted Dean's vessel and Michael had to flee, than Wayward Sue can be given credit for saving Dean.

And the vesseling part will also then be free to be given to any one of their other pet actors/characters.

 IDK, but it just feels like there's no end to the probable and possible swill that we're going to be asked to swallow now and especially after all that we've already been asked to swallow in only the first three episodes of S14.

Ugh.

I have such a feeling that this is going to be the longest season that this show has ever given us-and this, even though we're getting 3 episodes less than the last few seasons.  :-/

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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
11 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

But then I wonder why Michael had to leave at that precise moment, just before he confronted Sam, Mary, and Bobby. His fight with Kaia must have taken place before that, so unless the wound had a corrosive effect, he seemed to bear it pretty well. And even then, he smote the vampire bait girl just before he left Dean, so he can't have been in that bad of a shape. This only kind of makes sense if Michael fought Kaia in-between him setting the trap and going to Sam and co.'s location, but that seems really unlikely. The timeline is just too muddled right now. 

I think the fight with Kaia was the last thing that happened before he exited Dean.

He likely tried to heal himself first, though, and thus the scar and Dean's haggard appearance in the church.

I, too, think that the scar and whatever came along with the stab wound that made it, also made Dean's vessel uninhabitable for Michael.

I think that Catrox mentioned a spec she'd seen that the spear might be AULucifer's, and a type of twin to the spear of Michael's from that earlier Perez episode that need not be named. 

Edited by Myrelle
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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)
15 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The timeline is just too muddled right now.

I firmly believe that Buck/Ross Lemming write in a vaccum.  I think they're going to say that Michael meet with the werewolf boss, then baited the trap for Sam, Bobby and Mary.  While waiting for them he went to retreive the spear.  He was injured and weak and knew he needed to regroup so he chose that moment to leave Dean and is why Dean collaspsed, and he was planing to come back. 
But for reasons....Michael won't be able to possessed Dean again even if he said yes.

Edited by ILoveReading
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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think the fight with Kaia was the last thing that happened before he exited Dean.

He likely tried to heal himself first, though, and thus the scar and Dean's haggard appearance in the church.

I, too, think that the scar and whatever came along with the stab wound made Dean's vessel uninhabitable for Michael.

Then Michael sure is a multi-tasking, busy little bee, isn't he? But hasn't Kaia been running from the monsters for at least a few days, if Jody got wind of headless bodies? She also said that every time she stopped, more would come, implying a longer span of time. 

Myrelle

Myrelle

Yeah, it's true that the timeline is muddled because they'd just gotten back to the bunker and then Dean discovered the scar, so a matter of hours or at most a day, maybe. If Michael set the monsters on her as soon as he knew that he couldn't stay in Dean then she could have been running from them constantly since then. And she still had heavy-duty bruises from their altercation, too.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)

In the promo for he next episode  we see this hatchet man say "We all do bad things sometimes."  Then it cuts Dean to see and we see the chain saw go flying at his head. 

So it seems there is a strong possibility that we are for a continuation of the "Dean is a bad person" theme. 

Although, I admit Dean holding a lollipop is somehow oddly enduring.

Edited by ILoveReading
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BabySpinach

BabySpinach

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, it's true that the timeline is muddled because they'd just gotten back to the bunker and then Dean discovered the scar, so a matter of hours or at most a day, maybe. If Michael set the monsters on her as soon as he knew that he couldn't stay in Dean then she could have been running from them constantly since then. And she still had heavy-duty bruises from their altercation, too.

So if we're concluding that Kaia's spear was responsible for Michael leaving his vessel, then the only time that Kaia/Michael fight could have happened was in-between his killing of the vampire girl (Michael's final scene, where he didn't look remotely distressed, was clearly at full power, and was proceeding with his trap plan) and Dean's reunion with everyone, at a place that Michael had teleported to. That's really weird. Not to mention, Michael apparently bothered to put on a clean, unbloodied shirt somewhere along the way. 

I'm not fully convinced of the idea that Kaia's spear was responsible for Michael's departure. But the show always succeeds in disappointing me, so who knows?

That also throws Michael's whole trap thing into question, too. Were a few werewolves really all he'd set up? Why would he even bother targeting Sam, Mary, and Bobby, anyway? It's not like they were slowing him down or impeding him in any fashion. It just feels like there's more to it, and having Dean return to his family seemed deliberate on Michael's part. 

I know, I know, I'm probably giving too much credit to the writers on all this. But oh, the possibilities! If it's not, in fact, Kaia's spear that got Michael out, then the story immediately opens up and gets way more interesting. Sigh... 

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Spoilers With Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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