These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[ukgirl71]

With the MichaelDean story, I wanted substance, genuine unpredictability/suspense and danger, something lasting, oh, at least 5-6 weeks, and the chance for a bloomin’ good actor to shine and show just how much he’s capable of.

[SueB]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Also non-snarky:  I know I was hoping that the story would focus on Dean/Michael and not Sam learning to be a leader, Jack learning to be human, and Mary/Bobby.  I was hoping that we would get to actually *see* Jensen play Michael and not just in 5-minute increments/flashbacks.  I was hoping we would see a strong Dean fighting Michael (with or without Sam's help) and not another Dean angst-fest or making him "learn" yet another lesson.  I'd even settle for evil Michael trying to destroy the world as long as we got to see Jensen giving depth to the character.  

Bottom line:  I was hoping it would be a Jensen storyline, letting him shine in the spotlight, and not just a foil for the other characters to let them tell their stories.  Maybe it will turn out that way, but everything I've read has been discouraging.

Thanks...I get this.  Based on snippets thus far, it appears we're seeing the bodycount and only Michael's perspective.  Screen time matters to you in this instance.  Makes sense.  I suspect they may only giving the highlights because they want to stretch out exactly what Michael is up to.  This (Michael's plan) may be part of the mystery they are stretching.  But that would leave Dean knowing what it was and not telling everyone.  That would only be a reasonable move if he thought Michael was most sincerely dead.  But I suspect that will cause all sorts of recriminations from some that if Michael comes back, Dean should have said more ... or something.  Personally I don't see it (blaming a character for something he does based on a bad assumption) but it happens all the time.  

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was expecting an internal battle to be shown between Dean and Michael. Yes I want the same thing we saw with Sam and Lucifer. I don't want a 3 week jump that ignores the immediate struggle and aftermath of Dean's decision. I want Dean's perspective of why he did what did to be shown on screen I want to see Mean for an extended long look over 4 to 10 episodes and not told in flashbacks.

Got it. The "tux in the mirror" suggests we MAY get that scene (it was only one for Sam as well -- in Swan Song). But the 3 week jump means we miss out on initial reaction. 

I think the extended long look is what many wanted and Dabb is not going to give -- going the flashback route.  So, I get the dissappointment here.  Sounds like you too were ready for evil Michael so long as you got screen time.

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Thank you. So much.

 

And thank you again-especially to the bolded part. And I don't care if Samfans thought and still think that Sam was robbed of POV much of the time.

I'd take that any day over what wasn't given to us concerning Dean's hell time trauma or his purgatory trauma or his childhood trauma or his demon-time trauma or his MOC trauma.

In short, I'd like to see Dean's own lifetime of trauma(sans anything to do with Sam's) addressed through the Michael!Dean storyline and not have it turned into yet another Sam storyline that becomes about Sam's childhood/lifetime trauma.

And yes, yes, YES! to the idea that it be about real and true growth for Dean that involves Dean thinking better of  HIMSELF! and does not involve him having to be schooled on how awesome and great any other character on this show is and/or could be. This more than anything, to be sure.

 

 I see this as well.  Especially how they teased out what Dean remembered from Hell and what happened to him by showing quick cuts and facial reactions.  We only really got a few small scenes where he either talks about how he can't talk about it or the focus is on him succumbing to Alastair and starting to torture.  The Halucifer visions gave more insights over much of S7 -- compared to how they drew out Dean's hell time in S4. 

To be honest, I really have a hard time seeing how the Michael trauma turns into something that makes Dean feel better about himself.  I see potential for growth but I think the growth potential I see is not what you want. Specifically, I think where Dean MIGHT have growth is understanding that no matter HOW powerful you are, NO ENTITY (including God) should be able to force their world view on people.  Dean (and the show) are still pissed off God doesn't get invovled and help the good guys more when they ask (like bring back Cas).  But personally, I'd like to see Dean understand God's POV from his time with Michael.  Not that Michael is God, but he IS all-powerful-ish.  And he's imposing his will.  Dean has this juxtaposition of "Free Will" is everything but still pissed off at God for staying away. I think that if he came to appreciate why God left, that would piss people off (not me, but others).  So... I don't know if the growth potential I see is what everyone wants.  Otherwise, I don't see how the experience with Michael leads to Dean growth.   

Edited October 7, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

First and foremost I wanted to see Michael having his true vessel actually mean something.  It didn't get off to a good start when he was Lucifer's punching bag.   From the sounds of it Jensen is more a place holder until Dabb can hand the Michael character over to Mark P and allow other character to grow now that Dean's not sucking all the oxygen out of the room. 

Now I get that we eventually need Dean back, but the show could have accomplished this by showing Michael trying to get his vessel back after he's expelled.  I'm sure we'll get a line about how MP's vessel is superior and Michael is disappointed in his sword.

I really wanted to see Jensen get the one thing he asked for.  The chance to build the character.  I think this is his greatest stength as an actor.  It's hard to do that with only a few scenes in two measly eps and a few flashbacks. 

I wanted to see the story play out on screen.  Not just told.  It feels like we're joining the end of the story and they're skipping the middle and the beginning.   I felt like we were robbed not getting to see Deans' reaction to becoming a demon and I don't like that once again we won't get to see this.   A Flashback feels anticlimatic.  Mostly because we already know Dean's relatively okay.  Plus, flashbacks will likely be 2-3 minutes. 

I wanted to see Dean grow in a positive way.  Not Dean getting schooled and learning how he's too clingy or holds others back.  I wanted him to see that he's stronger than he thinks because he was able to fight Michael and stop him from doing some horrible things.   I wanted to see Dean eventaully be the one to oust Michael and not with some Deuce ex Machina that pops up. 

I want the aftermath to be dealt with with sympathy and compassion for Dean.  And for it to be about what Dean suffered.  My guess is the majority of Dean's guilt will be that he tricked Sam into being possessed and how much this hurt Sam.  No different than when Dean only talked about how Mary's deal only hurt Sam.   It was really disheartening to hear Jensen say that Dean was pushing his trauma down, and that nothing was in scripts yet but he feels thats the way the writers are heading.   He's said this before but it usually ends up getting dropped or he gets the boo hoo speech. 

If they're going to turn Michael into a torturer than that should bring back Dean's PTSD from hell.  It's a perfect opening to actually address it.  But i worry that since there is a 99% chance of Mark P playing Michael it will once again be all about Sam's hell because and trauma because Michael is wearing Lucifer's face and Sam was possessed. 

[ILoveReading]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

To be honest, I really have a hard time seeing how the Michael trauma turns into something that makes Dean feel better about himself.  I see potential for growth but I think the growth potential I see is not what you want. Specifically, I think where Dean MIGHT have growth is understanding that no matter HOW powerful you are, NO ENTITY (including God) should be able to force their world view on people.  Dean (and the show) are still pissed off God doesn't get invovled and help the good guys more when they ask (like bring back Cas).  But personally, I'd like to see Dean understand God's POV from his time with Michael.  Not that Michael is God, but he IS all-powerful-ish.  And he's imposing his will.  Dean has this juxtaposition of "Free Will" is everything but still pissed off at God for staying away. I think that if he came to appreciate why God left, that would piss people off (not me, but others).  So... I don't know if the growth potential I see is what everyone wants.  Otherwise, I don't see how the experience with Michael leads to Dean growth.   

All this just sounds like more schooling and lesson learning for Dean.  I've had enough of that over the years.   One again Dean learning he's too bossy.   He can be but I don't agree that he imposes his will on people.  He may not let them die, and  he may try but nobody actually listens to him.  Mary, Sam, have gone their own way since s1.   Dean's not as controlling as the show tries to make him out to be.

Where Dean could grow is that he could learn he's stronger, both mentally and physically than he thinks he is, if he can assert his will and stop Michael from doing some nasty thing.  We've see Dean's begging and pleading be the catalyst for Mary, Cas, Bobby and John.  So lets see this scene from Dean's POV.  Lets see Michael about to kill one of Dean's loved one and their pleading allows Dean to stop Michael and see him fight and eject Michael.   If Sam and Cas can fight Lucifer Dean should be allowed the same. 

Dean can also gain some self esteem if he sees through Michael's eyes that he is needed.  That everyone is pulling out all the stops to save him, but that Sam comes to the realization that he's not a leader, he prefers a more Bobby like role and more people say that this is Dean's role.   There is nothing wrong with Sam admitting he's not good at something.  (Leader has been Dean's role in the past and I don't understand why their is a sudden need to change it.). 

There are also small ways to show this.  Like the bunker is a mess because Dean's cleans it or they struggle on a hunt because there is some obscure knowledge that Dean knows. 

There are ways to show positive growth if the writers put effort into it instead of just Dean being made to learn more and more lessons.   And giving other characters breathing room.  From the sounds of it everyone is better off without Dean. 

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

Especially how they teased out what Dean remembered from Hell and what happened to him by showing quick cuts and facial reactions

Jensen adlibbed most of those.  The one time it was brought up on screen it was pure comic relief.  The whole thing with Kaia had nothing to with Dean having flashbacks.  Beren's said on twitter that Dean just did it to move things along and he was never going to shoot.  Jensen said himself during Jersey nothing is in scripts.  So I don't have much hope there.

Edited October 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Thanks...I get this.  Based on snippets thus far, it appears we're seeing the bodycount and only Michael's perspective.  Screen time matters to you in this instance.  Makes sense. 

I think saying I just want "screen time" is a little simplistic.  They could show an hour of Michael casually walking through cities and people dropping dead as he passed and it wouldn't mean anything.  I have to see Jensen actually *show* the character, not just being onscreen.  The scenes they've shown so far may be seeing things *from* Michael's perspective, but are not actually *his* perspective.  I want Jensen to showcase his abilities to make us care--one way or another--about his character.  

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I really wanted to see Jensen get the one thing he asked for.  The chance to build the character.  I think this is his greatest stength as an actor.  It's hard to do that with only a few scenes in two measly eps and a few flashbacks. 

Yes, this.

Similarly, I want Michael to be the focus of the storyline, not just a catalyst for the others--ie, seeing them focusing on him (and Dean) and not just using it as an excuse to show Sam's growth, and especially not to be sandwiched in as a throwaway line to show they're still working on it before they go off on a tangent--as it appears to be the case with Jack, Mary,  the AU people and the Wayward Sisters.  Cutting from a compelling storyline to several minor ones lessens the intensity and importance of the main story, and it's something that's been done fairly consistently for the last few years, not just with Dean's stories.  I just wish they'd learn that they can focus on one main story and see it from other perspectives instead of trying to give everyone their own separate story.  (I'm hoping that's what they mean when they say they're going to "simplify" things this year). 

But, yes, I want that "main story" to be Michael/Dean this time.  Soulless Sam was the focus of most of season 6, even if he wasn't on screen at the time, in between trying to figure out what was wrong, how to fix it, and dealing with the aftermath.  It was always in the background even if it wasn't specifically addressed, and brought into focus again whenever it became relevant to the story, not ignored, forgotten or brushed aside.  And Sam was treated sympathetically once he was himself again, given support and not blame or a call to change his basic character.   (This is not BvJ, btw, but a wish for the future). :)

And this:

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I wanted to see Dean grow in a positive way.  Not Dean getting schooled and learning how he's too clingy or holds others back.  I wanted him to see that he's stronger than he thinks because he was able to fight Michael and stop him from doing some horrible things.   I wanted to see Dean eventaully be the one to oust Michael and not with some Deuce ex Machina that pops up. 

I don't want the focus on Dean (when he returns) to be because he's a whimpering ball of PTSD and can't take care of himself.  I want to see the trauma catching up with him, but I want to see Dean fighting, not giving up (again).  

And I'm very sad that it appears that I'm asking way too much. *sigh*

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Got it. The "tux in the mirror" suggests we MAY get that scene (it was only one for Sam as well -- in Swan Song). But the 3 week jump means we miss out on initial reaction. 

There were multiple lengthy scenes of Samifer in s5. He was in The End and then again in the majority of Swan Song, not just one brief mirror scene. There was the possesssion scene in Detroit when he had already possessed Sam and Dean is distraught. Followed by the mirror scene which was actually fairly lengthy with much back and forth. And then in the final sequence wherein Samifer kills Cas , Bobby and beats the shit out of  Dean and then Sam breaks through  and drags Michael into the Cage with him.

Thus far, based on filming info, all we will get is likely 10 minutes at best of Mean, and given how they butchered the mirror scene in Regarding Dean, I have no good reason to think they won't butcher the Michael!Dean mirror scene and intersperse it with all the other stuff. In the case if Samifer, in Swan Song IIRC it wasn't broken up at all. So it had weight . If they couldn't give weight to Regarding Dean I don't think they'll do it with Mean.

And Mean is being given a likely lengthy exposition scene with Sister Jo which I won't care about. And flashbacks is shitty storytelling for something so important to Dean after all this time. Just more bait and switch using Dean for shock value and plot device for Sam, Jack and Mary.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Sounds like you too were ready for evil Michael so long as you got screen time.

No it's far more than screen time. I'm not that shallow of a  viewer. It's about the quality of writing and acting and how this experience will affect Dean. Sure I'm happy to see Jensen get a shot at playing other, but it's so much more. I'm a little surprised you think that's all it is for me.

Edited October 7, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

doesn't get invovled and help the good guys more when they ask (like bring back Cas).  But personally, I'd like to see Dean understand God's POV from his time with Michael.  Not that Michael is God, but he IS all-powerful-ish.  And he's imposing his will.  Dean has this juxtaposition of "Free Will" is everything but still pissed off at God for staying away. I think that if he came to appreciate why God left, that would piss people off (not me, but others).  So... I don't know if the growth potential I see is what everyone wants.  Otherwise, I don't see how the experience with Michael leads to Dean growth.   

Why should Dean need to understand Gods POV? Guck used Dean and abandoned them again. 

Dean allowed this possession for two reasons. to save Sam and Jack and to save the world from a super powered Lucifer.

They could actually have Dean influence Michael to see humanity in a much different light. They could let Michael understand humanity from Dean's perspective.  Maybe Dean will teach him lessons and we'll see that he's been right all along about Guck being an abandoning asshole, kind of like John used Dean.

I would like to see Dean and Michael talk about their fathers and that maybe Michael became this much crueler version because his Guck walked away. There is a lot of growth for Dean that doesn't need to  end up with Dean being the one to have to understand another's perspective. Maybe for a change someone in power can understand his. And Amara didn't really.

Edited October 7, 2018 by catrox14
typos and clarity

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They could actually have Dean influence Michael to see humanity in a much different light. They could let Michael understand humanity from Dean's perspective.  Maybe Dean will teach him lessons and we'll see that he's been right all along about Guck being an abandoning asshole, kind of like John used Dean.

This would be the prefect way for posistive growth for Dean.  It's always been his forte on the show.  Plus, he's supposed to be humanity's champion so he's be the perfect person to teach Michael that for all the bad, there is the good too.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

There is a lot of growth for Dean that doesn't need to  end up with Dean being the one to have to understand another's perspective.

This, this, and THIS!!

I'd like to see Dean come to the understanding that he is as important of an individual as anyone else that he thinks of as being individually important.

And I'd further like him to come to understand how strong(in so many unsaid ways) he is-and always has been!-because, to me, Dean is the strongest character on this show.

And this would be very easy to accomplish through the Mean storyline, IMO. In fact, there are too many ways to enumerate them, but for myself, I'd like to see Dean as the Sword of our world Michael and I'd like to see him first overcome his fear of being possessed again; then I'd like to see him defeat whoever they have possessing AUMichael-and if it's Nick or Lucifer, that would be all the better because they can re-do that first stupid fight scene and this time give Dean(and Jensen) the fight scene he(and we!) deserved to have seen and should have been given when we finally got that big showdown.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

So it seems from everyone's replies most people wanted the Michael story line to last and actually be about Dean.  Sad that even that was expecting and wanting too much. 

I also find it strange that there was no itunes sneak peek this year.   I wonder if that is because there are so few Michael scenes that if they showed and in depth look at the season they would end up showing them all. 

I also noticed that none of the main cast tweeted about the shaving people/people punting things or much about s14 in general.

I saw that a blogger got an advanced screening of the the premier and the only thing she had to say was that Sam's scruff needs to say. 

It makes me wonder how bad this season really is?

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think saying I just want "screen time" is a little simplistic.  They could show an hour of Michael casually walking through cities and people dropping dead as he passed and it wouldn't mean anything.  I have to see Jensen actually *show* the character, not just being onscreen.  The scenes they've shown so far may be seeing things *from* Michael's perspective, but are not actually *his* perspective.  I want Jensen to showcase his abilities to make us care--one way or another--about his character.  

Understood and agree.  Didn't mean to be simplistic, apparently I was. Honestly, if Jensen is on-screen with lines, I'm counting on it being meaningful.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

There were multiple lengthy scenes of Samifer in s5. He was in The End and then again in the majority of Swan Song, not just one brief mirror scene. There was the possesssion scene in Detroit when he had already possessed Sam and Dean is distraught. Followed by the mirror scene which was actually fairly lengthy with much back and forth. And then in the final sequence wherein Samifer kills Cas , Bobby and beats the shit out of  Dean and then Sam breaks through  and drags Michael into the Cage with him.

Thus far, based on filming info, all we will get is likely 10 minutes at best of Mean, and given how they butchered the mirror scene in Regarding Dean, I have no good reason to think they won't butcher the Michael!Dean mirror scene and intersperse it with all the other stuff. In the case if Samifer, in Swan Song IIRC it wasn't broken up at all. So it had weight . If they couldn't give weight to Regarding Dean I don't think they'll do it with Mean.

And Mean is being given a likely lengthy exposition scene with Sister Jo which I won't care about. And flashbacks is shitty storytelling for something so important to Dean after all this time. Just more bait and switch using Dean for shock value and plot device for Sam, Jack and Mary.

No it's far more than screen time. I'm not that shallow of a  viewer. It's about the quality of writing and acting and how this experience will affect Dean. Sure I'm happy to see Jensen get a shot at playing other, but it's so much more. I'm a little surprised you think that's all it is for me.

I thought you were focused on Dean fighting against Michael like Sam fought against Lucifer -- hence the mirror scene.  I actually think we'll see multiple scenes of Michael!Dean but the actual struggle is (IMO) likely another mirror scene.

See above on the screentime.  I agree it's not ONLY screentime but quality.  I'm profoundly confident that Jensen will make each scene meaningful.  So, while you think time w/ Sister Jo is unimportant, I think that will show Michael's big plan.  Therefore I find that meaningful.  I'm NOT expecting to see outward signs of Dean in Michael when Michael is in control. Not unless Michael gets injured.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why should Dean need to understand Gods POV? Guck used Dean and abandoned them again. 

Dean allowed this possession for two reasons. to save Sam and Jack and to save the world from a super powered Lucifer.

They could actually have Dean influence Michael to see humanity in a much different light. They could let Michael understand humanity from Dean's perspective.  Maybe Dean will teach him lessons and we'll see that he's been right all along about Guck being an abandoning asshole, kind of like John used Dean.

I would like to see Dean and Michael talk about their fathers and that maybe Michael became this much crueler version because his Guck walked away. There is a lot of growth for Dean that doesn't need to  end up with Dean being the one to have to understand another's perspective. Maybe for a change someone in power can understand his. And Amara didn't really.

Because he's in conflict w/ God?  Again, I don't see God as the asshole you see so I think we won't ever see eye to eye on this.

I FULLY expect Dean to influence Michael.  That's one of Dean's greatest gifts.  But I don't think that's 'growth' for Dean.  Dean has that already.  

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

This, this, and THIS!!

I'd like to see Dean come to the understanding that he is as important of an individual as anyone else that he thinks of as being individually important.

And I'd further like him to come to understand how strong(in so many unsaid ways) he is-and always has been!-because, to me, Dean is the strongest character on this show.

And this would be very easy to accomplish through the Mean storyline, IMO. In fact, there are too many ways to enumerate them, but for myself, I'd like to see Dean as the Sword of our world Michael and I'd like to see him first overcome his fear of being possessed again; then I'd like to see him defeat whoever they have possessing AUMichael-and if it's Nick or Lucifer, that would be all the better because they can re-do that first stupid fight scene and this time give Dean(and Jensen) the fight scene he(and we!) deserved to have seen and should have been given when we finally got that big showdown.

I'm not sure how Michael driving the bus is going to help w/ Dean feeling he's important.  I think Dean still sees this 'honor' as 'life as an angel condom'.  

I'd like that too.  That's going to take Dean defeating Michael somehow.  I don't expect that in the first half of the year.  I expect that in the second half -- because I think Michael is the season-long Big Bad.

 

So, in sum... sorry for the oversimplification -- not the intent.  I presumed Jensen screentime = meaningful character work because that's what he does.  I don't see much personal growth for Dean in the first half of the year but maybe in the second half.  I think the personal growth comes when he defeats Michael and I don't see that happening in the first 10 episodes.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Because he's in conflict w/ God? 

Not really.  God left the building a long time ago, leaving Dean in charge.  He dumped his responsibilities on Dean.  That makes him no better than John. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

presumed Jensen screentime = meaningful character work because that's what he does.  I don't see much personal growth for Dean in the first half of the year but maybe in the second half.  I think the personal growth comes when he defeats Michael and I don't see that happening in the first 10 episodes.

A good example of why screen time does not automatically equal meaningful is the scenes with Dean and Amara in 11.9.  I remember being excited that Jensen filmed with Emily for 3 days, but in the end those scenes didn't advance the story.  It was basically just a repeat of of the 11.1 in which Amara says their connected but it never went beyond that.   We never found out why.  We can come up with a lots of theories but the writers couldn't' be bothered.  A major plot point like Amara not taking Dean's soul because she couldn't or didn't want to, Carver flat out side in an interview.  Viewers can decide.  I knew then and there that the Amara story wasn't' a priority for the writers. 

This is unfornately, the feeling I have with the Michael storyline as it pertains to Dean.  Because that breathing room comment came across very much like Carver's answer did.    As for the exposition scene with Anael, there are other ways to accomplish this than straight up monologing.  Like Michael asking the praying man what he really wants.  But is the Anael and every scene with Michael after that just going to be more of the same, with it basically being the exact same scene over and over again.   Michael asking the person what they really wanted. 

While Jensen will rock and be fantastic that's not exactly good story telling.  So just being on screen even with exposition isn't necessarily going to be meaningful.  Why have Michael announce all his plans up front?  We didnt' know what the yellow eyed demon truly wanted until the end of s2 even though he was introduced early in s1.    Rather than being subtle and dropping clues and building on them they just have the bad guy announce it all at once.   But that's easier and doesn't require communication and planning.     It's the lazy way out. 

It could be good for Dean to be able to fight Michael.  To see him through Michael's eyes that everyone misses him and need him.  As @catrox14 said he could influence Michael's line of thinking so that in the end he helps them defeat Lucifer (because lets face it, he'll be back at some point).

As for Dean's trauma.  This show doesn't tend to pick up those plot points once they're dropped which it sounds like they are.

Edited October 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

A good example of why screen time does not automatically equal meaningful is the scenes with Dean and Amara in 11.9.  I remember being excited that Jensen filmed with Emily for 3 days, but in the end those scenes didn't advance the story.  It was basically just a repeat of of the 11.1 in which Amara says their connected but it never went beyond that.   We never found out why.  We can come up with a lots of theories but the writers couldn't' be bothered.  A major plot point like Amara not taking Dean's soul because she couldn't or didn't want to, Carver flat out side in an interview.  Viewers can decide.  I knew then and there that the Amara story wasn't' a priority for the writers. 

This is unfornately, the feeling I have with the Michael storyline as it pertains to Dean.  Because that breathing room comment came across very much like Carver's answer did. 

I feel the same.

 

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

While Jensen will rock and be fantastic that's not exactly good story telling.  So just being on screen even with exposition isn't necessarily going to be meaningful.  Why have Michael announce all his plans up front?  We didnt' know what the yellow eyed demon truly wanted until the end of s2 even though he was introduced early in s1.    Rather than being subtle and dropping clues and building on them they just have the bad guy announce it all at once.   But that's easier and doesn't require communication and planning.     It's the lazy way out.

Again IA.

 

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I don't see much personal growth for Dean in the first half of the year but maybe in the second half.  I think the personal growth comes when he defeats Michael and I don't see that happening in the first 10 episodes.

That's a big Maybe, IMO, and that's mainly because I don't think Dean will be the one to defeat Michael, which is why I was hoping that the live Mean storyline would last longer than 2 or 3 episodes because as long as Michael possesses Dean, Dean has a storyline, but when he leaves him, I'm expecting little more than Dean angst for a while(and likely accompanied by WeakDean and /or Deansel in distress(Dabb's favorite flavor of Dean) to go along with it-and I'll add my vote in as that being something that is most unwanted by this Deanfan, too-and then someone will tell him to suck it up and he will and the Michael/Dean storyline will, for all intensive purposes, be over with for good as far as Dean being at the center of it is concerned.

I wish I could hope for or expect something different, but these writers have been nothing if not predictable in this for so long now and the spoilers out of Comic Con this year just reinforced my belief that they're going to stick to that blueprint yet again.

I hope I'm wrong. I really and truly do, but the way they're talking about this storyline(and not talking about it) just makes me fear the worst yet again.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Because he's in conflict w/ God?  Again, I don't see God as the asshole you see so I think we won't ever see eye to eye on this.

I FULLY expect Dean to influence Michael.  That's one of Dean's greatest gifts.  But I don't think that's 'growth' for Dean.  Dean has that already.  

How can he be in conflict with Guck? Guck left, and left Dean to be the Firewall between Light and Dark which he did by becoming the soul bomb.   I would give Dabb et al, ALL the credit if they manage to have Dean gain control over AU Michael and that his role as the firewall stands up.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

A major plot point like Amara not taking Dean's soul because she couldn't or didn't want to, Carver flat out side in an interview.  Viewers can decide.  I knew then and there that the Amara story wasn't' a priority for the writers. 

On this show, I don't think a plot hole is necessarily evidence that the story isn't a priority for the writers. As I've said before, there were multiple plot holes in Sam's demon blood drinking storyline - some much larger, in my opinion, than why Amara didn't take Dean's soul - but that doesn't mean that the story itself wasn't a priority. It was pretty apparent, imo, that it was an important plot point that Lucifer got raised and that Sam's decisions lead to it.

In my opinion, the writers didn't want Amara to take Dean's soul, because they wanted someone - Dean in this case - to be someone Amara couldn't hurt and so therefore had to deal with non-violently. Someone who could influence Amara without her being able to deflect him. Exactly why that happened wasn't as important, apparently, but as I said above, this was not something new or even restricted to Dean.

[ILoveReading]

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2018/10/08/supernatural-season-14-teasers-sam-searches-for-dean-michael-searches-for-a-new-plan/

Quote

The hunters from the alternate universe have made themselves at home in the Men of Letters bunker and they’re both searching for Dean and trying to deal with the supernatural in this world. Sam is acting as their leader — doling out assignments and make sure everyone is doing their job, and he seems to have a lot of respect, with these hunters willing to follow him.

They are usupring Dean's leadership role. 

Quote

Bobby is taking Jack under his wing and trying to teach him how to fight without his powers. The pair have a nice bonding/sparring session. Still, Jack is struggling because he’s never needed to know how to defend himself and he feels incredibly lost without his grace.

Words can't express how much I don't care.

Quote

We don’t get to see a great deal of Michael, but we do start to get a sense of what he’s looking for — specifically, he seems to be searching for answers. “What do you want?” is his favorite question to ask and it appears there’s a particular answer he’s looking for.

What a shock.  Not only do we only get a couple of scenes with Michael but they're both the same scene. 

[catrox14]

I am so fucking annoyed with all the spoilers.  Please let this sidelining of Dean be because Jensen has taken on the role of Captain America now that Chris Evans has stepped aside.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. 

[devlin]

I know it shouldn’t and it’s completely irrational to think this way but these spoilers are actually making me dislike Jared even more

[Res]

2 hours ago, devlin said:

I know it shouldn’t and it’s completely irrational to think this way but these spoilers are actually making me dislike Jared even more

Or at the very least Sam. ;)

Edited October 8, 2018 by Res

[raven]

Remember, per the guidelines, discussion (even if bitter) about how TPTB love/hate the lead characters (one or both) goes in the "Bitch vs. Jerk" topic only.

There's been a bit of a leeway given because we appreciate the fact that you all are making an effort to keep BvJ in the correct topic. 

However, the conversation has been steering back towards BvJ in this topic; the posts have been removed but warnings and suspensions will come next.  Review the topic guidelines if you are not sure where to post your comment and think about what you are saying before you post.

It's premiere week, let's play nice!

[Casseiopeia]

What I am getting from this review mostly is that it sounds painfully plodding.  Dabb's "ensemble" scripts tend to be really disjointed and boring.

With a cast of "thousands" I can't see how he can set up a coherent story for anyone...and it doesn't read like he did.

Sam is organising a group of unruly hunters (and for some ridiculous reason gets to dictate whether or not there is a new King of Hell...what?), Bobby and Mary are gettin' it on, Jack is limply useless, Cas is making "wrong" choices...again,  Anael is hanging around to show us how impressed we need to be with Michael and Dean is talking to himself in a mirror.

  Sounds like the most interesting story is going to be shown off screen....Ketch is in GB doing Ketch stuff.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

  Sounds like the most interesting story is going to be shown off screen....Ketch is in GB doing Ketch stuff.

I wish we could see this.  I just hope he's not killed off screen. 

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/supernatural-season-14-review/#vuukle-emote

So much of this I agree with. 

Quote

If there’s a breath of fresh air to be savored in the meanwhile, it’s Ackles being able to experiment by playing another character, something I think he’s doing rather well. Though he’s putting his own stamp on Michael, I appreciate how he hasn’t deviated from the groundwork laid by Christian Keyes, thereby maintaining the mannerisms and vocal cadence already established.

This is the best part. 

 

Quote

That aside, getting past these angel and demon power struggles is a problem the producers need to address because it got stale after season 9. There’s a reason this series will soon hit the 300 episode milestone, and I’m sure it can go for 400 if some folks don’t keep on going back to the same well.

Edited October 9, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

The only thing that sounds halfway interesting to me from those first two reviews was the part about Michael and Anael seeing each other's true forms.

31 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/supernatural-season-14-review/#vuukle-emote

So much of this I agree with. 

This is the best part. 

 

I know that I saw CK's Michael in Jensen's performance in that little torturing snippet; looks like I wasn't the only one. ;-)

[Myrelle]

44 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Sam is organising a group of unruly hunters

They don't sound unruly to me from those reviews. On the contrary, it sounds to me like they have nothing but respect for Sam and are obeying his orders without question.

And the communication within the "family" unit is seemingly better than it's ever been, too. Wowee. That Hypable review had me searching for my biggest barf bowl.

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They don't sound unruly to me from those reviews. On the contrary, it sounds to me like they have nothing but respect for Sam and are obeying his orders without question.

And the communication within the "family" unit is seemingly better than it's ever been, too. Wowee. That Hypable review had me searching for my biggest barf bowl.

I thought the AU hunters (and apparently Jack) wanted to kill Michael.  Which would make sense since this is the Michael who destroyed their planet.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought the AU hunters (and apparently Jack) wanted to kill Michael.  Which would make sense since this is the Michael who destroyed their planet.

Not according to any of these reviews. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Not according to these reviews.

 I was going by previous comments by Dabb/Singer from SDCC.  Maybe that happens later?

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

 I was going by previous comments by Dabb/Singer from SDCC.  Maybe that happens later?

Maybe General Sam talks them all out of it and that's just part and parcel of his awesomeness as a leader.  Or maybe Dabb changed his mind and decided to just have the AU hunters fall in line behind Sam's leadership without any animosity or disagreements as regards killing Michael. It's Dabb...*shrugs*... 

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Maybe General Sam talks them all out of it and that's just part and parcel of his awesomeness as a leader.  Or maybe Dabb changed his mind and decided to just have the AU hunters fall in line behind Sam's leadership without any animosity or disagreements as regards killing Michael. It's Dabb...*shrugs*... 

I hope we don't have to listen to a whole bunch of "inspirational/motivational" speeches.  Dabb loves the talkies...

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Maybe General Sam talks them all out of it and that's just part and parcel of his awesomeness as a leader.  Or maybe Dabb changed his mind and decided to just have the AU hunters fall in line behind Sam's leadership without any animosity or disagreements as regards killing Michael. It's Dabb...*shrugs*... 

I guess they don't care about getting back to their own world now that they have such an inspiring leader to guide them here? Here's hoping somebody told all of Michael's minions over there that they could stop trying to wipe out all the humans now.

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I hope we don't have to listen to a whole bunch of "inspirational/motivational" speeches.  Dabb loves the talkies...

I doubt there'll be a whole bunch - it'll just take the one from Sam to charm them all onto his team.

Edited October 9, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Bobcatkitten]

Some grousing on Twitter that this will be the first episode ever without any "Dean" and it's unfair because "Sam" will have one more episode than Dean. I'm so frustrated by it. What is the big deal? This is the reason we only get two episodes of Michael because people are bitching already about no Dean and an episode hasn't even aired. 

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Some grousing on Twitter that this will be the first episode ever without any "Dean" and it's unfair because "Sam" will have one more episode than Dean. I'm so frustrated by it. What is the big deal? This is the reason we only get two episodes of Michael because people are bitching already about no Dean and an episode hasn't even aired. 

Supernatural is the longest running US genre show because of it's fans.
Supernatural was the first fan-voted TV Guide and Entertainment Weekly covers becasue of it's fans.
Supernatural has changed out its fans every year since at least Netflix at probably sooner but still manages to be in the top 3 of it's network and have reasonable ratings.
The Supernatural fanbase rarely agrees on anything -- and even then, there will ALWAYS be people who despise a generally loved episode (ex: Baby) for whatever reason.

IMO the writers have to have some appreciation for the 'buzz' from fandom while also ignoring the whims of fandom -- fall too hard one way (listening to fans... piss off at least 30-40% of another fan group)... fall too hard the other way (ignoring fans completely ... and make really stupid decisions... like killing Charlie ... and even then some people were happy about it).  

As S13 progressed, there was definitely lobbying for Dean and Michael.  As the run-up for S14 is going, there's definitelly lobbying for it to be a long storyline.  There's also a hue and cry from those who want Sam and Dean always together. And we know that Dabb thinks he's found a middle ground (shorter on-screen separation w/ longer arc via flashbacks).  And that is unacceptable to some. Just like having a single episode 'without Dean in it' is apparently an issue (nevermind it IS still Dean's body.. so he's technically in the episode, just not driving the boat).  

As I am fond of saying "Common sense to one man is a revelation to another" (I thought that was Mark Twain but now I can't find the reference).  I think hitting a storyling that the majority of fandom simultaneously likes?  Pretty damn hard.  So they might as well keep doing what they are doing because they are still on the air. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by SueB

[ahrtee]

46 minutes ago, SueB said:

As I am fond of saying "Common sense to one man is a revelation to another" (I thought that was Mark Twain but now I can't find the reference).  I think hitting a storyling that the majority of fandom simultaneously likes?  Pretty damn hard.  So they might as well keep doing what they are doing because they are still on the air. 

There's also the possibility that they're still on the air *despite* what they're doing to the characters, not because of it.  Or, as another quote put it:

"At some time in the life cycle of virtually every organization, its ability to succeed in spite of itself runs out."  I have the sad feeling that this year may be it.

Edited October 9, 2018 by ahrtee

[SueB]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

There's also the possibility that they're still on the air *despite* what they're doing to the characters, not because of it.  Or, as another quote put it:

"At some time in the life cycle of virtually every organization, its ability to succeed in spite of itself runs out."

Possibly.  But at the end of the day, it's making money.  Sufficient money via all the platforms available for both the WB and the CW.  Which means it's easily covering it's $2+M/episode price tag.  So, I don't know if we are near the point yet where it's not profitable. Until that happens, I think they'll keep doing how they are doing.   

[ahrtee]

Just now, SueB said:

Possibly.  But at the end of the day, it's making money.  Sufficient money via all the platforms available for both the WB and the CW.  Which means it's easily covering it's $2+M/episode price tag.  So, I don't know if we are near the point yet where it's not profitable. Until that happens, I think they'll keep doing how they are doing.   

Same thing.  It's making money as long as the fans keep supporting it.  But if enough fans (of any group, or several groups) get pissed off (or bored) enough and stop watching, it won't be profitable anymore, and that might show up by the end of this year, which is where my timeline is coming from.  I know I'm seriously considering dropping it, and I've been watching live and continuously for 10 years now. *sigh*

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Same thing.  It's making money as long as the fans keep supporting it.  But if enough fans (of any group, or several groups) get pissed off (or bored) enough and stop watching, it won't be profitable anymore, and that might show up by the end of this year, which is where my timeline is coming from.  I know I'm seriously considering dropping it, and I've been watching live and continuously for 10 years now. *sigh*

Exactly.  Maybe this'll be the year.  But we've seen talk like this since ... EVER.  I think S5 was a given once they were far enough along on S4.  I think after they got to about S8, many have expected a one-year notice like Smallville.  I really don't expect the show to tank so badly that they hastily call an end at S14.  Could be wrong, but highly doubt it.  So, I think we'll have at least S15.  And then the boys will decide to renew for two years or not.  Again.  

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Exactly.  Maybe this'll be the year.  But we've seen talk like this since ... EVER.  I think S5 was a given once they were far enough along on S4.  I think after they got to about S8, many have expected a one-year notice like Smallville.  I really don't expect the show to tank so badly that they hastily call an end at S14.  Could be wrong, but highly doubt it.  So, I think we'll have at least S15.  And then the boys will decide to renew for two years or not.  Again.  

Taking to BvJ just to be safe.

[ILoveReading]

If Supernatural is still making money for the net work it must be through the Netflix or merchandising deal.

I saw an article on Twitter a few days about about ad rates and Supernatural was near the bottom and its rates dropped about 15%, so ratings must have been down overall last season.

It was just under 30K.  So if there are 18 minutes of ads x that, that equals about 540,000.  Not even near enough to cover the price tag. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Supernatural is still making money for the net work it must be through the Netflix or merchandising deal.

I saw an article on Twitter a few days about about ad rates and Supernatural was near the bottom and its rates dropped about 15%, so ratings must have been down overall last season.

It was just under 30K.  So if there are 18 minutes of ads x that, that equals about 540,000.  Not even near enough to cover the price tag. 

It's NEVER been enough, even at it's peak -- as far as I know.  WBTV underwrites the show for the other venues it sells.  CW -- which is obviously a combo of Warner Brothers and CBS -- has been working this deal for forever.  I don't know the dollars of the deal but clearly they couldn't work out something similar w/ Wayward -- which is why I think they weren't picked up.  Perhaps the accountants couldn't forecast the same dollars for DVD/International like Supernatural.  I also know that CW and other networks have also been focused on "in-house" productions these days versus ones from separate studios like WBTV.  I'm not remotely privy to the deal so I can't tell you the value it provides CW except it holds it own (compared to other CW shows) in the highly contested Thursday night slot.  It must make sufficient funds to justify staying on the lineup. 

We'll know this year by late November.  That's when the initial look is provided.  Either the network is happy or not.  This has been a really consistent pattern for the last 6+ years. 

[Myrelle]

For some strange reason, I'm getting the feeling that Dabb is going to attempt to recreate the cabin scene from Devil's Trap to separate Dean from Michael. 

[Bobcatkitten]

There was mention in either TV Line about the egg. I'm surprised they remembered. 

 

TVLINE | Are they all on the same page in terms of how to go about the Michael situation and rescuing Dean? Or is there some conflict?
There is a little bit of conflict, but at the end of the day, the first step is [to] find him, basically. There’s a device they used back in Season 12 that forced Lucifer out of the president, and so there are some ideas like, “Well, if we can find that device, and we can get Michael in a room, maybe we could use that to force Michael out of Dean and save Dean.”

The other plan that’s hanging out there is difficult because, as of right now, there’s really nothing in our world that can hurt Michael, as far as we know. There’s a little bit of discussion of, “Are we going to save Dean? Are we going to kill Michael?” Those words are not the same thing, and Michael being loose in this world is a real danger. So at the end of the day, they all want to save Dean, but if it came down to it, if Dean couldn’t be saved and the only way to stop Michael was to kill Dean in the process, even Dean Winchester would say, “Take that deal,” because you’re saving the world.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Bobcatkitten

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

There was mention in either TV Line about the egg. I'm surprised they remembered. 

 

TVLINE | Are they all on the same page in terms of how to go about the Michael situation and rescuing Dean? Or is there some conflict?
There is a little bit of conflict, but at the end of the day, the first step is [to] find him, basically. There’s a device they used back in Season 12 that forced Lucifer out of the president, and so there are some ideas like, “Well, if we can find that device, and we can get Michael in a room, maybe we could use that to force Michael out of Dean and save Dean.”

The other plan that’s hanging out there is difficult because, as of right now, there’s really nothing in our world that can hurt Michael, as far as we know. There’s a little bit of discussion of, “Are we going to save Dean? Are we going to kill Michael?” Those words are not the same thing, and Michael being loose in this world is a real danger. So at the end of the day, they all want to save Dean, but if it came down to it, if Dean couldn’t be saved and the only way to stop Michael was to kill Dean in the process, even Dean Winchester would say, “Take that deal,” because you’re saving the world.

 

But why do they need to 'find' the egg - doesn't Cas remember where he put it, lol?

I agree, Dean would absolutely, 100% say 'take that deal' when it's himself on the line. Thing is, he already did that with Amara. Come up with something new, show.

I think this review of the premiere seem's fair - and it's clear the guy is a fan who wants to love it. I actually feel the same way (despite appearances). I so want the show to be great again and I don't think it would take a miracle to accomplish it (except for the miracle of getting Dabb the fuck off the throne).

One thing in that review I haven't seen elsewhere:

The Winchesters may be separated, sure, but we at least get a dose of the heartwarming stuff by way of the newly established dynamic shared between Jack (Alexander Calvert) and Apocalypse World’s Bobby (Jim Beaver), as the the latter takes the former under his wing now that he has to deal with being mortal.

Bobby? Is that a typo? Because I would much rather see that than have Dean's role as big brother usurped.

Maybe we can get lucky and Not!Bobby, Mary and Jack can all go off an be the family she always wanted. ;-)

Edited October 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[mertensia]

23 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Some grousing on Twitter that this will be the first episode ever without any "Dean" and it's unfair because "Sam" will have one more episode than Dean. I'm so frustrated by it. What is the big deal? This is the reason we only get two episodes of Michael because people are bitching already about no Dean and an episode hasn't even aired. 

Have you ever read any of the Baby Blues comic strips where the mom Wanda is doing something like weighing out two ice cream cones with ocean and counting individual sprinkles to make sure they are absolutely equal to keep Zoe and Hammy from fighting? 

That's how some fans are.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But why do they need to 'find' the egg - doesn't Cas remember where he put it, lol?

I don't think Cas had the egg last.  Sam was the one wielding the egg.  Was it shown that Cas picked up the egg? 

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Cas had the egg last.  Sam was the one wielding the egg.  Was it shown that Cas picked up the egg? 

Somebody posted that in another conversation about the egg - I'd have to watch the scene again to be sure.

ETA: Yup, Sam hands it to Cas as he tells him to 'get [Kelly] out of here'. You can see it (wrapped in a black cloth) in his hand as they run out one door while the Feds run in the other.

Edited October 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: Yup, Sam hands it to Cas as he tells him to 'get [Kelly] out of here'. You can see it (wrapped in a black cloth) in his hand as they run out one door while the Feds run in the other.

Nothing like continuity fail that makes Cast look stupid for no good reason.  I'm surprised they didn't have him destroy in to keep the boys from using it to expel the spawn from Kelly. That would have been the perfect reason and in continuity with how the spawn affected Castiel ,  So dumb.

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Nothing like continuity fail that makes Cast look stupid for no good reason.  I'm surprised they didn't have him destroy in to keep the boys from using it to expel the spawn from Kelly. That would have been the perfect reason and in continuity with how the spawn affected Castiel ,  So dumb.

Can you say 'flashback' ;)

[Bobcatkitten]

Interesting that Cas had the egg. I thought the boys had it and therefore the feds did. But yeah he should know what the heck he did with it. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe we can get lucky and Not!Bobby, Mary and Jack can all go off an be the family she always wanted.

IA.

And then the CW could offer them their own show and they could take most of the present SPN writers room with them and Pellegrino and the wayward teens, too. And Jody and Donna could be floaters.

[ILoveReading]

https://dimples-of-discontent.tumblr.com/post/178906045466/ibelieveinthelittletreetopper

Just when you think Dabb can't get any worse, he takes it as personal challenge every time. 

Michael's mission is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. 

He's supposed to be a powerful arch angel who can wipe out anything or anyone with a snap of his fingers so why does he even need and army....I can't even think about it without laughing.   This just reinforces my belief that Dabb forgot that Michael has powers and Jensen had to remind him. 

I was going to say Dabb put about five seconds into planning the Michael story but I think even that is giving him to much credit.

Can we get a new showrunner?