These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't recall: when Jack was cycling through all these AUs looking for Mary, were any of them the Utopia he showed Cas?

I remember when Lucifer's mind was being read by Michael that he mentioned Paradise. And Michael mentioned Paradise but I guess that really all comes down to what an angel vs a human thinks is Paradise.

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Bad BuckLemming writing. They wanted to throw in a plot point that would make the characters question Jack’ s existance and want for a easy visual without consideration of the long term consequences. That is pretty par for the course with BuckLemming.

So, which was the bad writing then? Making him set the Bible on fire or having that not happen when Lucifer touched it later? LOL.

[Wayward Son]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, which was the bad writing then? Making him set the Bible on fire or having that not happen when Lucifer touched it later? LOL.

When did Lucifer touch a bible? I recall Jack doing so in ironically enough a BuckLemming episode later, but not Lucifer? 

 

But to answer your question I’d consider the bible burning to be bad writing and the instance of non burning to make more sense. As I said IMO within the SN universe Lucifer is still considered an archangel and we’ve never been told his fall affected his grace / inherent nature. So there’s no reason a bible should burn from his touch. 

 

As I said I consider Lucifer to be evil due to him choosing to use his free will to make evil choices not because Guck created him as some special species with an ‘evil’ gene. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

When did Lucifer touch a bible? I recall Jack doing so in ironically enough a BuckLemming episode later, but not Lucifer? 

Lucifer was reading the bible in the Sister Jo episode which was BuckLemming also wrote.

 

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

s I said I consider Lucifer to be evil due to him choosing to use his free will to make evil choices not because Guck created him as some special species with an ‘evil’ gene. 

I didn't say Guck created him with an evil gene on purpose. Guck could have just fucked up.

Beyond that, if an entity lives for thousands of millennia and makes evil choices like he did in Hell during that time, that it might actually fundamentally change that entity to the point that it's altered "DNA" or grace in Lucifer's case, and subsequent altered changes gets passed on to it's offspring. That's what I'm saying.

[gonzosgirrl]

Pretty much all the angels, up to an including Castiel (though it's latent in him, only coming out when he gets his God complex on), seem to have the Massive A-hole gene, if not the Outright Evil gene, a la Lucifer. Chuck's creative abilities are not exactly a hallmark for good design.

Nobody will convince me we weren't meant to believe that Lucifer passed on his propensity for evil to Jack, and that it changed somewhere along the line.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Pretty much all the angels, up to an including Castiel (though it's latent in him, only coming out when he gets his God complex on), seem to have the Massive A-hole gene, if not the Outright Evil gene, a la Lucifer. Chuck's creative abilities are not exactly a hallmark for good design.

Nobody will convince me we weren't meant to believe that Lucifer passed on his propensity for evil to Jack, and that it changed somewhere along the line.

They could have wanted us to believe that at first, but that doesn't necessarily mean they intended it to be that way. It's a pretty common device to introduce a character and make them look shady through things such as omnious phasing, the odd suspicious seeming glance in a bid to lead the audience into believing one thing and then revealing nope they're actually good.

 

I'm not ruling out the possiblity of Jack turning out evil, but IMO if he does it'll be because of Jack's own choices not an evil gene inherited from Lucifer. I also don't believe that all angels are assholes. Samandriel (What's up Tiger Mommy and Torn and Frayed) seemed pretty decent as did Inias (Reading is Fundamental). Anna was also initially rather decent and caring of humanity. Of course she did turn A-hole later on when she attempted to kill Sam, but it could be argued she had been messed up by months of being tortured by the angels in heaven.  

Edited February 20, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

They could have wanted us to believe that at first, but that doesn't necessarily mean they intended it to be that way. It's a pretty common device to introduce a character and make them look shady through things such as omnious phasing, the odd suspicious seeming glance in a bid to lead the audience into believing one thing and then revealing nope they're actually good.

 

I'm not ruling out the possiblity of Jack turning out evil, but IMO if he does it'll be because of Jack's own choices not an evil gene inherited from Lucifer. I also don't believe that all angels are assholes. Samandriel (What's up Tiger Mommy and Torn and Frayed) seemed pretty decent as did Inias (Reading is Fundamental). Anna was also initially rather decent and caring of humanity. Of course she did turn A-hole later on when she attempted to kill Sam, but it could be argued she had been messed up by months of being tortured by the angels in heaven.  

So then pretty much Lucifer is off the hook if Jack is bad?  And it comes down Sam and Dean?

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So then pretty much Lucifer is off the hook if Jack is bad?  And it comes down Sam and Dean?

I'd say if Jack turns bad then the responsibility lies with Jack and not with anyone else. He's been portrayed as knowing the difference between right and wrong and if he chooses to go down a dark path (and by that I mean go full on evil rather than killing someone with his powers by accident) then that's on Jack. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

I'd say if Jack turns bad then the responsibility lies with Jack and not with anyone else. He's been portrayed as knowing the difference between right and wrong and if he chooses to go down a dark path (and by that I mean go full on evil rather than killing someone with his powers by accident) then that's on Jack. 

Then what was the point of Sam and Dean taking Jack into their care? I mean Sam and Dean could have just let him be and it would still be the same wouldn't it?

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then what was the point of Sam and Dean taking Jack into their care? I mean Sam and Dean could have just let him be and it would still be the same wouldn't it?

I think Jack needed Sam's guidance to both protect him from harmful influences such as Asmodean and to help him learn about the world around him, but that's all Sam can do is teach him how to do good, but he can not force him into it. I don't really see Dean as having much to do with the development of Jack to be honest. He largely rejected adopting a parental role to Jack due to his belief Jack was evil and the cause of Cas' death. By the time he began to think differently it was too late to have much involvement as Jack then disappeared (end of Tombstone) and briefly returned to them before being thrown into Apocalypse World. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think Jack needed Sam's guidance to both protect him from harmful influences such as Asmodean and to help him learn about the world around him, but that's all Sam can do is teach him how to do good, but he can not force him into it. I don't really see Dean as having much to do with the development of Jack to be honest. He largely rejected adopting a parental role to Jack due to his belief Jack was evil and the cause of Cas' death. By the time he began to think differently it was too late to have much involvement as Jack then disappeared (end of Tombstone) and briefly returned to them before being thrown into Apocalypse World. 

So then essentially if Jack is good it's because of Sam's guidance and influence and if he's bad it's his own choices?  Sorry, I'm just not following you exactly.

Edited February 20, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

So then essentially if Jack is good it's because of Sam's guidance and that's it?

Sam's guidance, Jack's own reading up on things and general interaction with others and since the show seemed to credit a certain level of intelligence in the womb to him also the initial influence of Kelly and Castiel. 

[MysteryGuest]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So for me it doesn't really matter if Jack is good or just wants to be loved, because maybe that's not necessarily an indication of how his actions are going to turn out in the end. As was said above, the potential for misuse of power - even accidentally - is still there...

I think Jack is still a bit of an unknown, but I'll be disappointed if they suddenly decide he's going to be evil.  They've given no indication up to this point that he has cruelty, just for the sake of it, in his nature.  But he is painfully naive, and could be easily manipulated at this point.  Had he not encountered Sam and Dean at the beginning, and had instead been found by Lucifer or Asmodeus, things could be radically different.  

There has to be some counter balance.  Had Jack been evil, the odds would have been pretty seriously stacked against mankind.  They already have no permanent solution for Lucifer, and if Jack were evil, too, and even more powerful than Lucifer, what would be the point in continuing?  Add AU Michael to that mix, along with Asmodeus, and it would have been a bit ridiculous.  

But even though Jack may be good, the extent of his powers is still an unknown.  We've already seen him hurt people accidentally, so there could be more of that to come.  I would certainly consider Cas to be good, but he's killed scores of people and angels, all the while thinking he was doing the right thing.  

I would prefer to see Jack have an influence on Lucifer, rather than the other way around.  On Supernatural, Lucifer has been portrayed as the Archangel with daddy issues.  What better way for him to overcome his issues than by trying to have some sort of relationship with his own son. I don't know if a redeemed Lucifer is the end game for this show, but it makes sense to me, since they've kept him around forever.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I would prefer to see Jack have an influence on Lucifer, rather than the other way around.  On Supernatural, Lucifer has been portrayed as the Archangel with daddy issues.  What better way for him to overcome his issues than by trying to have some sort of relationship with his own son. I don't know if a redeemed Lucifer is the end game for this show, but it makes sense to me, since they've kept him around forever.

For me, if Lucifer gets a redemption arc then all the suffering the boys experienced in the first 5 seasons of the show, Sam's suffering with Lucifer visions, Lucifer killing people, possessing POTUS to rape and impregnate Kelly without her consent becomes MEANINGLESS . I will actually quit the show at that point. ALL of it will be FOR and ABOUT Lucifer at that point. I'll be so pissed if that happens I can't even say.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I don't really see Dean as having much to do with the development of Jack to be honest. He largely rejected adopting a parental role to Jack due to his belief Jack was evil and the cause of Cas' death.

Oh, I disagree. IMO, Dean had far more influence on Jack than Sam did in the end. Many times it's the non-involved parent that has the most influence on a child. Don't get me wrong, I think Sam influenced Jack too, but I think it was Dean who actually had more impact on Jack. It was Dean who Jack was trying to please more than anything.

IMO, if Jack is good, it's due to Jack's choices; and if Jack is bad, that's due to Jack's choices. Sam and Dean can only give information and guidance, but it's up to Jack to decide what kind of "person" he wants to be. And to be honest, even if Jack had been "raised" by Lucifer it would still be down to Jack's choices. Having influence of a bad parent can only take you so far; at some point, you have to own your own choices and stop blaming everything on your parents. 

I think the big question here is: has Jack enough experience at this point and/or mature enough to be making that decision yet? I mean, he's physically old enough to be an adult, but has he really had enough experience to be an adult? Does he truly understand what good and bad actually are or is he just a little kid trying to please his parents?

For me, I'm not sure Jack actually understands what the choices are. For instance, I don't think he understood what opening a rift to another universe was all about as much as he wanted to do something nice for Sam and Dean and didn't consider someone could be hurt by his actions. So, I'm not sure I can say he's either good or bad at this point. He seems to have good intentions--which suggests he's more good than bad--but more experience could change him into someone with bad intentions, IMO.

Edited February 21, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me, if Lucifer gets a redemption arc then all the suffering the boys experienced in the first 5 seasons of the show, Sam's suffering with Lucifer visions, Lucifer killing people, possessing POTUS to rape and impregnate Kelly without her consent becomes MEANINGLESS . I will actually quit the show at that point. ALL of it will be FOR and ABOUT Lucifer at that point. I'll be so pissed if that happens I can't even say.

I think they've already neutered him so to speak, by having him around so much.  He's lost whatever fear factor he might have had.  I would have preferred that they leave him in the cage, but they didn't do that.  When I think about big bads on this show, Yellow Eyes is the only one that really holds up for me.  And that's because we got him in small doses, and he was never even momentarily redeemed.  He was just evil.  Lucifer has been the bad guy, then the semi helpful, good guy, then just the whiny, annoying pain in the ass.  He's not evil or scary.  So if they end up redeeming him at this point, it won't bother me in the slightest.  They've already negated what came before where he's concerned.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think they've already neutered him so to speak, by having him around so much.  He's lost whatever fear factor he might have had.  I would have preferred that they leave him in the cage, but they didn't do that.  When I think about big bads on this show, Yellow Eyes is the only one that really holds up for me.  And that's because we got him in small doses, and he was never even momentarily redeemed.  He was just evil.  Lucifer has been the bad guy, then the semi helpful, good guy, then just the whiny, annoying pain in the ass.  He's not evil or scary.  So if they end up redeeming him at this point, it won't bother me in the slightest.  They've already negated what came before where he's concerned.

 They neutered him which still doesn't erase what he did. They have redeemed TOO MANY villains already in the show. So for me, Lucifer being laid low and losing his power IMO is not redemption but quiet punishment.  I'm fine if they kill a depowered useless Lucifer as long as TFW gets to kill him and it's not him sacrificing himself like freaking Metatron.  I absolutely will have a shit fit if he gets any forgiveness or kindness from TFW. He doesn't deserve it and I am 100% against it.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They neutered him which still doesn't erase what he did. They have redeemed TOO MANY villains already in the show. So for me, Lucifer being laid low and losing his power IMO is not redemption but quiet punishment.  I'm fine if they kill a depowered useless Lucifer as long as TFW gets to kill him and it's not him sacrificing himself like freaking Metatron.  I absolutely will have a shit fit if he gets any forgiveness or kindness from TFW. He doesn't deserve it and I am 100% against it.

I'm not rooting for a redemption arc for Lucifer, believe me, but I won't be surprised if that's where they're headed.  I don't see him becoming a member of TFW, whatsoever.  Losing his powers and having to live as one of the humans he despises would be a just end for him, I think.  I could get onboard with that.  I've wanted him tossed back in the cage since they first let him out, so I have no love for him. But the show has ruined their own canon by having Lucifer stick around as long as he has.  For me, they've taken the sting out of whatever he did before.  

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think Jack needed Sam's guidance to both protect him from harmful influences such as Asmodean and to help him learn about the world around him, but that's all Sam can do is teach him how to do good, but he can not force him into it. I don't really see Dean as having much to do with the development of Jack to be honest. He largely rejected adopting a parental role to Jack due to his belief Jack was evil and the cause of Cas' death. By the time he began to think differently it was too late to have much involvement as Jack then disappeared (end of Tombstone) and briefly returned to them before being thrown into Apocalypse World. 

Freudian slip? Heh.

[catrox14]

I just remembered that Lucifer in LOTUS when he was POTUSifer, the Bible started burning his hands, and then Kelly's hand burned the Bible, so yeah to me that makes it pretty clear that whatever thing about Lucifer caused that Bible to burn when he was in POTUS Jeff was inherited by Jack.

Edited February 21, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

35 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Jack is still a bit of an unknown, but I'll be disappointed if they suddenly decide he's going to be evil.  They've given no indication up to this point that he has cruelty, just for the sake of it, in his nature.  But he is painfully naive, and could be easily manipulated at this point.  Had he not encountered Sam and Dean at the beginning, and had instead been found by Lucifer or Asmodeus, things could be radically different.  

There has to be some counter balance.  Had Jack been evil, the odds would have been pretty seriously stacked against mankind.  They already have no permanent solution for Lucifer, and if Jack were evil, too, and even more powerful than Lucifer, what would be the point in continuing?  Add AU Michael to that mix, along with Asmodeus, and it would have been a bit ridiculous.  

But even though Jack may be good, the extent of his powers is still an unknown.  We've already seen him hurt people accidentally, so there could be more of that to come.  I would certainly consider Cas to be good, but he's killed scores of people and angels, all the while thinking he was doing the right thing.

I agree, and this is pretty much what I was saying above... that whether a character is "good" or "evil" isn't necessarily an indicator of whether or not they will do bad things. Good people can do bad in the mistaken belief that it was somehow supposed to be a good thing, or in the mistaken - or at times maybe even the true belief - that doing the bad is worth the price for good down the line (a Machiavellian approach) and bad people can do good things, maybe because it pleases them at the moment or maybe because it might benefit them down the road (I'm looking at you Crowley - heh).

And I also agree that we have enough powerful bad guys already. If Jack had been inherently evil, there would've needed to be a whole bunch of plotonium to make me believe Sam and Dean had a chance of getting out humanity out of this. I suppose we could've had a good Alternate Universe Michael, but considering that, for me, Michael is as huge a dick as Lucifer while hiding behind his "I'm only doing what Dad wanted" shield, I wouldn't have liked that in the least. And having Jack be powerful but ineptly stupid, so that he could be defeated that way might've been plausible, but, in my opinion, I don't think it would be something for this show... That would be more for a different kind of show, in my opinion.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm fine if they kill a depowered useless Lucifer as long as TFW gets to kill him and it's not him sacrificing himself like freaking Metatron.

Aww but I loved to hate Metatron... and at least Metatron showed that he learned from his evil deeds (even if the main lesson he learned is "I tried being God but then I found out: this is harrrd.") and so I bought his turn around back to wanting things to be safe and familiar from him. However Lucifer does not seem to - nor want to - learn and wouldn't care about those things, so him finally getting it now would have me wondering "why now?"  So if it does happen - and I don't really want it to, but if it did - I'd want a freaking awesome explanation as to why Lucifer suddenly "gets it" - and for me Jack wouldn't necessarily be an answer, since this show has a bunch of characters who still can't seem to "get it" despite the fact that they likely should through their children... with the biggest examples being John Winchester and Rowena and maybe to an extent Chuck, so I don't think I'd buy Lucifer "getting it" just because of Jack, myself. For me there would need to be something else and/or more.

[DeeDee79]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 They neutered him which still doesn't erase what he did. They have redeemed TOO MANY villains already in the show. So for me, Lucifer being laid low and losing his power IMO is not redemption but quiet punishment.  I'm fine if they kill a depowered useless Lucifer as long as TFW gets to kill him and it's not him sacrificing himself like freaking Metatron.  I absolutely will have a shit fit if he gets any forgiveness or kindness from TFW. He doesn't deserve it and I am 100% against it.

Co-sign 1000%.

[catrox14]

Thinking more, if Jesse's power was directly affected by Lucifer being free, then it should also affect Jack and even moreso since Jack is Lucifer's actual spawn. MO, the reason Jack could touch the Bible in 13.2 without it burning is related to Lucifer being trapped in AW, so his power might not have been felt by Jack.  

Since Lucifer's hand didn't burn the Bible in the Sister Jo ep my headcanon is that is a result of part of his grace being removed by Michael mitigated that effect.  

[DeeDee79]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thinking more, if Jesse's power was directly affected by Lucifer being free, then it should also affect Jack and even moreso since Jack is Lucifer's actual spawn. MO, the reason Jack could touch the Bible in 13.2 without it burning is related to Lucifer being trapped in AW, so his power might not have been felt by Jack.  

Since Lucifer's hand didn't burn the Bible in the Sister Jo ep my headcanon is that is a result of part of his grace being removed by Michael mitigated that effect.  

More good points!

[Wayward Son]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Freudian slip? Heh.

Nah just a spelling error. Probably a result of the fact I’m currently reading Wheel of Time which features a character called Asmodean LOL

[Myrelle]

13 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I disagree. IMO, Dean had far more influence on Jack than Sam did in the end. Many times it's the non-involved parent that has the most influence on a child. Don't get me wrong, I think Sam influenced Jack too, but I think it was Dean who actually had more impact on Jack. It was Dean who Jack was trying to please more than anything.

IMO, if Jack is good, it's due to Jack's choices; and if Jack is bad, that's due to Jack's choices. Sam and Dean can only give information and guidance, but it's up to Jack to decide what kind of "person" he wants to be. And to be honest, even if Jack had been "raised" by Lucifer it would still be down to Jack's choices. Having influence of a bad parent can only take you so far; at some point, you have to own your own choices and stop blaming everything on your parents. 

IA with this assessment-especially the bolded part-but Dean and Sam being in the parental roles first and initially will, IMO, be the most important factor in the further development of the spawn of Satan/Lucifer-a designation which lacks it's original "bite", again IMO, after the nonsense that Dabb pulled at the end of S11 via Chuck/God and the Mark which pretty much made null and void the idea that Lucifer was Evil Incarnate. No, now he's just a not-very-nice archangel who apparently also has a hideous real face. So his being absent from Jack's life early on, with the Winchesters having usurped the father role from him, will, of course, make all the difference because it's clear that the writers are only using the nature vs nurture bit regarding Lucifer where it concerns supernatural powers. We have seen nothing else of Lucifer in Jack, even though it would have been far more interesting if they'd given him some negative qualities to along with his sugar and spice and everything nice personality, but apparently he's far more his sainted mother's son in the "nature" department. What a surprise.

Since the teeny boppers have embraced him as their cinnamon roll, I stand even firmer behind the idea that this storyline will come to a very predictable end with Jack denying Lucifer's parentage rights and opting to listen to his non-biological human fathers. The surprise would be if Jack fell under the spell of his real father and the Winchesters realized that they would have to put him down and, more surprising, if they'd be allowed to actually go through with it. This storyline has been a snoozefest from the get-go, IMO, and I don't see any surprises coming out of it at all, at this point. The only question pertaining to Jack in my mind is what are they going to do with him after he saves everyone.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

t's clear that the writers are only using the nature vs nurture bit regarding Lucifer where it concerns supernatural powers

They don't even seem to using it for powers when it comes to Jack.  We've only seen the nougat loving cinnamon roll wanting to use his powers to help.  When things went wrong it was clearly an accident and little Jackie felt so guilty.

Honestly, I don't think it matter who had custody early on.  Jacks first encounter with humanity was Dean trying to shoot him, but doesn't seem to have really made an impression on him.  Jack can speak the words all he wants, but it becomes eye rolling where there is nothing to back them up.

I agree that's why watching Jack in duller than watching paint dry.  There are no layers to him.  He's just a goodie two shoes.

23 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

e surprise would be if Jack fell under the spell of his real father and the Winchesters realized that they would have to put him down and, more surprising, if they'd be allowed to actually go through with it. This storyline has been a snoozefest from the get-go, IMO, and I don't see any surprises coming out of it at all, at this point. The only question pertaining to Jack in my mind is what are they going to do with him after he saves everyone.

Hopefully they'll send him off to Wayward, and he can take Dabb and Berens with him. 

With Mark Pellegrino being invited to the Paley fest, I doubt Jack is going take him out. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Hopefully they'll send him off to Wayward, and he can take Dabb and Berens with him. 

With Mark Pellegrino being invited to the Paley fest, I doubt Jack is going take him out. 

As much as I dislike Dabb the showrunner, if he leaves for Wayward tabs may get us stuck with BL as showrunners which  is the most terrifying thing I can think of for this show.

[Pondlass1]

Jim Michaels once admitted that they have no idea where a season will go. No overall plan.  It's all willy nilly and that's why nothing makes much sense.

And the format never changes. Introduce a scary, seemingly powerful adversary at the end of the season.... and then spend the following season de-powering and whitewashing said adversary.  They've done it time and time again.  Especially as the series has moved into more metaphysical arenas.  Sam and Dean are no longer ordinary hunters  to be sure, but they're not super humans.  They have no powers, just grit and luck.  So to pit them  against  superpowers places writers into all sorts of dilemmas and so it all gets really silly, canon goes out the window,  and fans must twist themselves into knots trying to explain it all.  They need to return to the simpler days of yore.  One really big bad that doesn't go gooey as the season progresses.

Honestly - what is there for us fans to be biting our nails worried about?  The AU idea has fizzled (could've been great).

Jack is Pretty Teen Castiel (otherwise known as cinnamon bun), Lucifer is annoying, no one cares if Mary is rescued or not, KFC guy is a joke.  Michael is all mouth & trousers. We've got dead characters resurrecting at an alarming rate and grace being passed back and forth.  The only intriguing bit for me (and I'm not particularly a Castiel fan) is what the hell is going on with Castiel? Why the closeups of him with odd expressions?  Gas?   Or is it in the script? - is something exciting actually going to happen with Cas after all these years?

And in the middle of this crowded arena we find Sam&Dean who stand about looking gorgeous and concerned, but not much involved in anything.

Although I have to admit I'm enjoying this season more than last, despite it all. LOL :)

[trxr4kids]

I'm still hoping speculating that Holtz/Donatello takes Connor/Jack to Quor'Toth through one of the handy dandy portals and doesn't come back, leading Lucifer to follow a trail from whence none can return, EVER!

Edited February 21, 2018 by trxr4kids

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IA with this assessment-especially the bolded part-but Dean and Sam being in the parental roles first and initially will, IMO, be the most important factor in the further development of the spawn of Satan/Lucifer-a designation which lacks it's original "bite", again IMO, after the nonsense that Dabb pulled at the end of S11 via Chuck/God and the Mark which pretty much made null and void the idea that Lucifer was Evil Incarnate. No, now he's just a not-very-nice archangel who apparently also has a hideous real face. So his being absent from Jack's life early on, with the Winchesters having usurped the father role from him, will, of course, make all the difference because it's clear that the writers are only using the nature vs nurture bit regarding Lucifer where it concerns supernatural powers. We have seen nothing else of Lucifer in Jack, even though it would have been far more interesting if they'd given him some negative qualities to along with his sugar and spice and everything nice personality, but apparently he's far more his sainted mother's son in the "nature" department. What a surprise.

Since the teeny boppers have embraced him as their cinnamon roll, I stand even firmer behind the idea that this storyline will come to a very predictable end with Jack denying Lucifer's parentage rights and opting to listen to his non-biological human fathers. The surprise would be if Jack fell under the spell of his real father and the Winchesters realized that they would have to put him down and, more surprising, if they'd be allowed to actually go through with it. This storyline has been a snoozefest from the get-go, IMO, and I don't see any surprises coming out of it at all, at this point. The only question pertaining to Jack in my mind is what are they going to do with him after he saves everyone.

Dean has been telegraphing the fact that he realizes that Jack will have to be put down if he goes bad and that he Dean will have to be the one that does it. It is the entire reason that Dean tried to keep Jack at arm's length all season and was distant and cold (aka "mean" by those who never bother to empathize with the character).

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jim Michaels once admitted that they have no idea where a season will go. No overall plan.  It's all willy nilly and that's why nothing makes much sense.

And the format never changes. Introduce a scary, seemingly powerful adversary at the end of the season.... and then spend the following season de-powering and whitewashing said adversary.  They've done it time and time again.  Especially as the series has moved into more metaphysical arenas.  Sam and Dean are no longer ordinary hunters  to be sure, but they're not super humans.  They have no powers, just grit and luck.  So to pit them  against  superpowers places writers into all sorts of dilemmas and so it all gets really silly, canon goes out the window,  and fans must twist themselves into knots trying to explain it all.  They need to return to the simpler days of yore.  One really big bad that doesn't go gooey as the season progresses.

Honestly - what is there for us fans to be biting our nails worried about?  The AU idea has fizzled (could've been great).

Jack is Pretty Teen Castiel (otherwise known as cinnamon bun), Lucifer is annoying, no one cares if Mary is rescued or not, KFC guy is a joke.  Michael is all mouth & trousers. We've got dead characters resurrecting at an alarming rate and grace being passed back and forth.  The only intriguing bit for me (and I'm not particularly a Castiel fan) is what the hell is going on with Castiel? Why the closeups of him with odd expressions?  Gas?   Or is it in the script? - is something exciting actually going to happen with Cas after all these years?

And in the middle of this crowded arena we find Sam&Dean who stand about looking gorgeous and concerned, but not much involved in anything.

Although I have to admit I'm enjoying this season more than last, despite it all. LOL :)

I think the Carver seasons stuck with the bold outlines closely. Carver was interested in character arcs and character development.  I think his main focus was exploring the brothers respective fatal flaws and how these have driven the mytharc and how supernatural creatures handle their brushes with humanity. 

For me Carver very successfully redeemed the character of Sam who had been mired in bad writing that kept him behaving like a teenager and prevented him from acknowledging his mistakes and bad choices.  I blame both Kripke and Gamble for this.  When you gave written your "hero" as the defacto antichrist and disloyal to family you have a huge problem that cannot be overcome by creating a textual antichrist.  

The character has to feel remorse, stone and subsequently dedicate their live to helping others.  SEE the writing for Alex to see how it should be done.

Carver essentially repeated Sam's fall without the excuse of demon blood, Ruby or the devil made him do it.  He let's Dean down and he unleashes a new Apocalyptic figure onto the world.  In the end he admits wrong, apologizes to Dean, feels guilt and remorse and finally appears to dedicate himself to family and hunting.  For me it was exactly what the character needed, was extremely well done and was a storyline that was announced loudly in the season 8 premiere and concluded when Sam denies Lucifer and announces that he places his trust in Dean.

Yes it was harsh because there was no whitewashing of Sam's actions.  It needed to be done in my opinion.

Not looking for Dean mirrored not wanting to look for John.  He only joined Dean for the long haul when Jessica died.  He joined Dean in the cabin when Amelia was no longer available.

Sam is jealous of the angels which spurs his hubric inclination to prove he is better than Dean.

Sam is jealous of Dean's supernatural friends which spurs his need to be the one to save Dean.

Sam takes his feeling of being an outsider an out on Dean in both storylines as well as Sully.  This also fuels his need to prove himself to Dean in hubric actions.  I thought the Sully episode was brilliant at hammering this.  Under Carver Sam apologizes to Sully and later Dean.

Sam ignores Dean does obviously bad stuff, friends die, etc.  Lucifer released.  Darkness released.  Under Carver Sam expresses horror and remorse at the death his choices unleashed leading to character growth and change.

Not wanting to start a fangirl war.  Just trying to show that Carver used his 4 years to build specific character arcs.  Unfortunately he was not into Car. I thought Crowley's human arc was glorious.  Sadly he did not complete Dean's arc fully in my opinion.  Rather than hubris Dean's flaw is low self worth.  His bad  decisions grow out of his belief his death is the best he has to offer and hopefully one baddie will go out with him.  Dean is still business as usual.  I have a feeling that Singer and Dabb are still using a Carver plan for the broad strokes because they have been so good at hinting at the upcoming Apocalypse and the Winchester family drama whilst sucking at most everything else.

Also I will just throw at that it looks,to me,like the brothers are finally switching mytharc roles.  Sam has become the caretaker and Dean appears to be taking over the mytharc racing towards disaster role.  I say this because Sam has been  taking care of Jack and Dean in full on momma bear. 

Dean for the first time ever raced into a selfish decision that could harm the world and risked the life of an innocent and then didn't feel guilty.  This is Sam shades of killing possessed people for power or shrugging of Charlie's death and human sacrifice because it got him what he wanted.

It shocked me and I buy it because Mary is the trigger.  Dean's backstory which lead to him forming the Family Business mantra and the relationship they showed us last season supports Dean going off the rails 

So for anyone bristling about Sam needing redemption in my opinion rest assured that Dean has gone dark, is going to go darker and be the one needing redemption.

Yes I know that Sam manipulated Jack to rescue Mary and Jack took on her rescue as a personal quest.  Dean however pulled a gun on an innocent girl and yada yada yada she is dead and Dean have his impression of the old Sam's dreaded shoulder shrug signifying not my problem.

The old Dean would have said we will find another way because opening the rift is too dangerous.  This Dean does not care because all his thoughts are on Mary. So this Deangirl readily admits whatever happens is on Dean because he has crossed a really big line.

[trxr4kids]

 I am in the bitter spoilers and speculations thread right? I feel confused.

[gonzosgirrl]

50 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The old Dean would have said we will find another way because opening the rift is too dangerous.  This Dean does not care because all his thoughts are on Mary. So this Deangirl readily admits whatever happens is on Dean because he has crossed a really big line.

Whatever happens is on Dean AND Sam this time. Dean pulled the gun, sure - but Sam and Jack both went along with it. They were all complicit in opening the rift that ended in Kaia's maybe-demise, and both brothers are actively seeking a way to get to Mary. It's not all on Dean, not by a long shot.

ETA: Not that that will stop Dabb from doing whatever he wants as far as blaming Dean goes, but that's what happened on the screen, regardless. Dean twisted Kaia's arm, but he sure didn't make Sam do anything.

Edited February 21, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean has been telegraphing the fact that he realizes that Jack will have to be put down if he goes bad and that he Dean will have to be the one that does it. It is the entire reason that Dean tried to keep Jack at arm's length all season and was distant and cold (aka "mean" by those who never bother to empathize with the character).

He didn't telegraph anything - he said it outright. But then Jack got coated in cinnamon sugar and Dean declared him family, so, yeah.

Edited February 21, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

The old Dean would have said we will find another way because opening the rift is too dangerous.  This Dean does not care because all his thoughts are on Mary. So this Deangirl readily admits whatever happens is on Dean because he has crossed a really big line.

The problem is that after Dean pulled that gun, its been pretty much "Mary who" with regards to Dean.  Two days in monster land, and he was like 'meh, we live in here now."  I don't even remember him mentioning Mary's name in the last couple of eps. 

Its something the writers have really dropped the ball on. 

[trxr4kids]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Whatever happens is on Dean AND Sam this time.

Whatever happens is on Chuck for fucking off to wherever without cleaning up his original mess.

[MysteryGuest]

7 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Honestly - what is there for us fans to be biting our nails worried about? 

This is the problem with a 13 year old show.  The drama can no longer come from the "will they or won't they die for real" anymore.  We know they're not dying for real until the end of the show.  But there are certainly other ways to create drama other than just having the threat of death hanging over the heads of your stars.  Create some interesting monsters.  Write some scary stories.  They had the opportunity to go this route after last season and the demise of the BMOL, but they chose to go with more of the same lame angel/demon crap.  They could have easily had the monsters be the big bad this season.  Monsters seeking revenge for all of the killings from last year.  Monsters banding together to hunt the hunters.  Any number of things that would have been really interesting and scary, if written well, but therein lies the rub.  These writers don't seem capable of more than just rinse and repeat.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Whatever happens is on Chuck for fucking off to wherever without cleaning up his original mess.

True dat.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I'm still hoping speculating that Holtz/Donatello takes Connor/Jack to Quor'Toth through one of the handy dandy portals and doesn't come back, leading Lucifer to follow a trail from whence none can return, EVER!

I think Jack is proving to be too popular to do away with at this point. 

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Jack is proving to be too popular to do away with at this point. 

"Kill your darlings" - not a concept this show subscribes to, lol.  But they've given him so much power and put into canon that nephilim are more powerful than their sires, I shudder to contemplate which storyline they are going to co-opt to allow him to remain on Earth.

[MysteryGuest]

They've also been setting things up that someone is going to have to take charge of Heaven.  I think that's where Jack will eventually fit in.  He's too powerful to be part of TFW for too long.  I kind of liked when it was Sam, Dean, Cas and Jack, though, so I'll miss him.  If I never saw Asmodeus, Ketch or Lucifer again, I'd be perfectly happy.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem is that after Dean pulled that gun, its been pretty much "Mary who" with regards to Dean.  Two days in monster land, and he was like 'meh, we live in here now."  I don't even remember him mentioning Mary's name in the last couple of eps. 

Its something the writers have really dropped the ball on. 

Dean has seemed weirdly disconnected from his previous freak out. Could this be intentional? Like maybe Sam and Dean that came back from the Bad Place are not quite themselves? Could they both or one of them be a doppelganger?

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean has seemed weirdly disconnected from his previous freak out. Could this be intentional? Like maybe Sam and Dean that came back from the Bad Place are not quite themselves? Could they both or one of them be a doppelganger?

I wish.  This show is pretty much what you see is what you get.  I find very little layering.  I think its was more likely writer weakness where they can't deal with more than one thing at a time.  It was Sam's turn to be sad which meant that Dean couldn't be anymore.

Even in the promo for the upcoming ep, Dean seems more matter of fact "We get mom, we get out" than frantic.

[catrox14]

From @gonzosgirrl

I'm LOL'ing. This is trying to make us think one of TFW is going darkside. Okay show. 

But I'll play along,

Is Dean good and Sam going bad. Is Dean good and Cas Bad? Is it all of them going dark side?

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From @gonzosgirrl

I'm LOL'ing. This is trying to make us think one of TFW is going darkside. Okay show. 

But I'll play along,

Is Dean good and Sam going bad. Is Dean good and Cas Bad? Is it all of them going dark side?

 

If cos of them is going dark side it’ll be Cas. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

If cos of them is going dark side it’ll be Cas. 

Maybe it's in reverse LOL.  Also, promo monkeys fail again because you'd think they would have put Jack in there too cause you good and bad...in Jack...just sayin' LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If cos of them is going dark side it’ll be Cas. 

I actually wondered if this is what all the bits of weirdness with Cas was leading to, but this promo convinces me otherwise. Bait and switch.To clarify: I don't think it's any of them.

Edited February 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

And it was obviously done before this season because Cas has his new coat and not the retro coat from s13.

[ILoveReading]

If one of them are going bad, I'd like for it to be Dean, because then he might actually get out of the valium induced haze.

[Wayward Son]

48 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If one of them are going bad, I'd like for it to be Dean, because then he might actually get out of the valium induced haze.

And I don’t want it for Cas since the show never handles the follow up to dark Cas properly due to his non lead status so you Dean fans are welcome to it lol