A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Rumsy4]

I've invariably wanted to quit at the end of every B arc since Season 2. It's the season finales that have pulled me back. I was sick of the villains constantly flip flopping in S2B. It was the Neverland flashback and promise of going there that made me tune into S3. I liked the initial episodes of 3A well enough to keep watching, and then I was sucked into the Captain Swan shipping vortex. The CS movie was literally the saving grace of S3B after the twin disasters of Bleeding Through and Kansas. Season 4 was overall dreadful because Operation Stupid and the stupid Regina&Emma "friendship" cast a pall over everything in retrospect--even the good parts. But I was intrigued enough about the Dark Swan arc and the summer spoilers. I am actually enjoying this arc the best since 3A. I expect 5B will probably be dreadful

, but the UW/SaveHook arc has me somewhat optimistic

. At this point, the only reason for me to quit would be if they killed off either Emma or Hook for good, or eggnapping-level ruined CS.

[Shanna Marie]

Personally, for at least some, it's likely a bit of both.  I wasn't a Regina fan in season 1, but she was an interesting adversary.

That's the feedback I've been hearing from people. Because of my work, I go to a lot of science fiction conventions, and because I use a lot of fairy tale material in my work, if there's a panel relating to fairy tales, TV and movies derived from fairy tales, treatment of heroes and villains, etc., I'm usually involved. This is from smaller regional conventions to the World Science Fiction Convention. I also frequently use this show as an example of how not to write on my blog or discuss genre TV in general. And what generally comes up either on panels or in conversations with people who run into me afterward and want to continue the discussion or in blog comments is that almost everyone I talk to says they watched season one and liked it but bailed in season two. They liked Regina as a villain, both in Evil Queen mode and in Mayor Mills mode, but they couldn't deal with it when we were supposed to feel sorry for her. They lost a lot of people with the not being invited to dinner tears and even more when she teamed up with Cora, and still more when she got called a hero for stopping the failsafe she set up to kill everyone in town. With some people, there's the double whammy of the awesome Bandit Snow from season one being turned into a wimp when she dissolved into semi-suicidal tears about taking out Cora. A pretty big part of the audience bought into the season one structure of awesome Bandit Snow battling the Evil Queen in the past and snarky Emma battling Mayor Mills in the present, and they weren't on board with the switch of Regina to "hero" while the good-guy characters were weakened to prop her up.

 

When I wear my Captain Hook t-shirt, I get a lot of remarks to the effect of "I like him, and I tried coming back to the show for him, but I just couldn't with Regina."

 

I think she seems pretty popular because her fans are very loud and in most places it's not safe to say you don't like her. The people who left the show for that reason don't care enough to post on message boards. They just left. I can't even make myself try to encourage them to give it another try because the reasons they left are still there. If you liked the season one dynamic, the current show just isn't the same. It has a very different energy and vibe. Not only did they lose the Regina vs. everyone else tension, but they lost a lot of the whimsy and the real world vs. fairy tale world clash.

[KingOfHearts]

Taking my reply to the Regina thread.

[Mathius]

If viewers had a problem with Regina herself, I think they would have taken more issue with S1. The turn-off was the plots they were giving her, imo.

 

Yes, this.  I did say that Henry was disliked well before Regina was, since as an honest straight-up villain in S1 Regina was super popular with the general audience.  Even the start of her redemption in 2A didn't make her disliked, that was all 2B.

 

I've invariably wanted to quit at the end of every B arc since Season 2. It's the season finales that have pulled me back. I was sick of the villains constantly flip flopping in S2B. It was the Neverland flashback and promise of going there that made me tune into S3. I liked the initial episodes of 3A well enough to keep watching, and then I was sucked into the Captain Swan shipping vortex. The CS movie was literally the saving grace of S3B after the twin disasters of Bleeding Through and Kansas. Season 4 was overall dreadful because Operation Stupid and the stupid Regina&Emma "friendship" cast a pall over everything in retrospect--even the good parts. But I was intrigued enough about the Dark Swan arc and the summer spoilers.

 

Pretty much the same case with me with Seasons 2-4.  The A half has me engaged, the B half not so much until the finale.

 

5A, however, has not engaged me all that much overall, so maybe 5B will actually be better?

Edited November 29, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

5A, however, has not engaged me all that much overall, so maybe 5B will actually be better?

I'm superficially engaged into 5A. There's been insurmountable tension growing since the premiere, with very few stops on the way. (Except for Merida, which I don't really count all that much since it doesn't even seem like the same show.) The show is submerged in a constant state of panic, which puts the brakes on character development for everyone besides Emma and Hook. It's like someone hit the pause button in Storybrooke while all the Camelot/DO drama gets worked out. Even though the present takes place in SB, I feel as though I haven't seen the town in a while.

 

I'm not totally immersed in it because it's been stuck in one mode all season so far. It's all a blur, imo.

Edited November 29, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I'll say it before, I'll say it again: I've enjoyed the Camelot stuff much more than the Storybrooke stuff.  That, with some exception (the Regina BS in 5x02), is where the show engages me the most since it's a change of scenery, costume, and character dynamics.  With Dark Hook, Storybrooke may be interesting again, though.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Mathius

[LizaD]

If viewers had a problem with Regina herself, I think they would have taken more issue with S1. The turn-off was the plots they were giving her, imo

Well you could say that about every character then. No one hates Hook, the turn-offs are the plots. No one has a real problem with Snow, it's her plots. No one hates Robin Hood just his plots. Sorry but the "plots" bcecome the characters at this point.

And no, S1 Regina is a totally different beast vs S2 to present Mary Sue Victim Woegina. Which is why I said the Mary Sue Victim chased away the most viewers in 2B. S1 Regina was actually my one of my favorite characters along with Snow and Rump. By the time S2 rolled around and that episode where the 3 men in Rump, Jefferson and Victor were victimizing poor poor Woegina, it pissed me off with the flashing neon signs of where this was going. The lasagna thing sealed it and ever since I haven't found a more annoying Mary Sue ever, than her to date.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well you could say that about every character then. No one hates Hook, the turn-offs are the plots. No one has a real problem with Snow, it's her plots. No one hates Robin Hood just his plots. Sorry but the "plots" bcecome the characters at this point.

I definitely have a problem with Henry in any plot, lol. To each his own.

 

 

S1 Regina was actually my one of my favorite characters along with Snow and Rump. By the time S2 rolled around and that episode where the 3 men in Rump, Jefferson and Victor were victimizing poor poor Woegina, it pissed me off with the flashing neon signs of where this was going. The lasagna thing sealed it and ever since I haven't found a more annoying Mary Sue ever, than her to date.

Regina's woobifying had a lot to do with other characters, though. Rumple, Jefferson, Victor, Snow, Greg, Henry, and Cora were all painting her as a victim by either kissing up to her or making her sad. Regina had been a whiny brat before, but it was in S2 that the other Storybrookers accepted it and pitied her.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

 

Rumple, Jefferson, Victor, Snow, Greg, Henry, and Cora were all painting her as a victim by either kissing up to her or making her sad.

 

Well that's what makes her the black hole of suck. Not content with just ruining her character, they had to ruin practically the entire cast FOR her. It certainly wasn't about their own characters. It was for her benefit, to the writers at least. They were turned into props for Poor Poor Woegina.

 

 

Regina had been a whiny brat before, but it was in S2 that the other Storybrookers accepted it and pitied her.

 

Yeah she's always been whiny but she wasn't a perpetual crybaby like in S2. I swear there wasn't a single episode in S2 where she wasn't throwing those long ass close up shots of  "I'm the biggest victim ever!" faces at the camera or just outright sobbing. Seriously, that's not hyperbole speak. Not a single episode where she was gracing our screens that at least one of those 2 things didn't happen and 90% of the time it was both.  Honestly the amount of screentime her tears got in S2 alone is probably more than the entire cast of mains' and guests' crying time combined through all 5 seasons. Hell her tears could probably be its own character and would be in the top 3 of character airtimes. It would go like this, Emma, Woegina, Woegina's tears, and everyone else. If we add in the amount of screen time spent on the characters' discussion of Woegina's tears and pain when it couldn't be shown onscreen itself, well then the airtime would be: any time spent on Woegina's pain and tears>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then characters' screentime.

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched 1x20, "The Stranger". I had forgotten how much I dislike August and how overly pretentious he is. He thinks he's so cool and wise for believing in the curse and trying to get Emma to as well.

My main complaints are with the flashbacks. I despise Geppetto. Were there really no other carpenters in the Enchanted Forest? Why was he their only option? I don't agree with Geppetto's reasoning, either. He sent his 7 year old into another world he knows nothing about to take care of a baby. Blue mentioned Emma was prophesied to save them. Pinocchio would have had better chances if he stayed if they thought about it. But what's amazing to me is that Blue and Jiminy both go along with the lying. They don't try to find an alternative or talk to anyone else about it. It's all just dumb to me.

Regina seducing David... I had to think about my reaction to that. It doesn't go anywhere and it's never mentioned again, so it seems pointless. However, it does show how desperate Regina is after everything keeps failing. Throwing her glass at the mirror in anger is pretty great.

This was definitely my least favorite episode of S1.

Edited December 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

But what's amazing to me is that Blue and Jiminy both go along with the lying.

 

The only way to explain it is Gepetto is the only person who can carve this special vessel.  But then again, apparently just random dust from the burnt out wardrobe could transport someone in S2, so whhhhhatever....

 

 

 

They don't try to find an alternative or talk to anyone else about it. It's all just dumb to me.

 

What else is new.  Cue EVERY single dumb decision the heroes make.  It always starts out like this.  For example, Eggbaby.  Why wouldn't Snowing have consulted Blue?

 

 

 

This is definitely my least favorite episode of S1.

 

The Stranger... our first foray into the "wonderful" world of ret-con that we will enter again and again.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Camera One

[october]

Rewatched 1x20, "The Stranger". I had forgotten how much I dislike August and how overly pretentious he is.

I will never get over him revealing to Neal that he knows who he really is by typing 'I know you're Baelfire' onto a piece of paper, putting it and the typewriter onto the back of his bike, and then showing it to Neal.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ so, so dramatic. Lol. I'm mad that they never explained how he knew all this stuff. I think a lot of people infer that it was Mickey, but I don't think we ever got a confirmation. All he needed was a line or two to confirm it.

[Camera One]

I will never get over him revealing to Neal that he knows who he really is by typing 'I know you're Baelfire' onto a piece of paper, putting it and the typewriter onto the back of his bike, and then showing it to Neal.

 

He's a "writer".  Isn't that writers do?  Present simple facts in the most roundabout and nonsensical ways possible to eek out a surprise?  Oh yeah, it's just these writers.  They might as well have had Dumbo write "Baelfire" onto the sky inside a box with a lense into another "realm of storytelling".

[Dianthus]

I remember thinking at the time that Pinocchio was a little young to be a father. Pushing that kind of responsibility on him was pretty messed up. The again, the whole damn thing has proven to be a clusterfck of epic proportions.

[Camera One]

I was reading a tease article with quotes from A&E from the beginning of Season 5.  I know we have one episode left, but it's interesting to see how well these "teases" panned out.

 

 

 

"Emma, as we see in Camelot, is trying to resist the Darkness -- and then she went full-on 'Lady Stardust' at the end of the premiere," Kitsis told TVLine. "So we're wondering, what happened? And how did that happen?"

 

In essence, the answer was very simple - Hook almost died.  Was that really worth a 10 episode wait?  How/when did Emma conceive of the plan to put the Darkness in Zelena and then kill her?  How does she know if it would even work?  They never showed how Emma got to the point where she took Violet's heart.  Which in the long-run was pointless, because basically, we're meant to believe she "overcame" the Darkness, and would have "won" if Hook hadn't been slashed by Arthur.

 

 

 

"[We] love the notion that two of the people that [Emma] has expectedly and unexpectedly grown closest to over the years, Regina and Hook, are both people who've battled darkness themselves. How their experiences can inform what she's going through, and either help or hinder her, is something that we want to explore this half of the season and beyond," Horowitz told the publication.

 

Notice that it's the TWO people Emma has grown closest to.  It's clear as day who are being excluded here.  Did they really "explore" how Regina and Hook's experiences informed what Emma was going through?  Hook they did, but Regina?  

 

 

 

As for Rumple's coma, Kitsis dished, "I don't think it'd be much fun to see him lying around the whole season. His arc in Storybrooke is something we haven't fully seen before. It's going to go right into his very essence as a character."

 

Rumple becoming a insta-"hero" was going right into his very essence as a character?  Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

 

 

 

"My favorite Belle is the one where she's strong, and we're going to see that strength this year," Kitsis said, along with a reference to Blue's statement that Belle is "too important a player to sit on the sidelines while everyone else is adventuring in Camelot."

 

The strength was in pushing Merida into a suicide mission?  Or was it waiting a few days before dropping Rumple like a hot potato?  I mean, I'm glad Belle finally dumped him, but this was not at all satisfying after all Rumple put her through in Season 4.  It almost seemed like we were meant to feel sorry for Rumple, being rejected after becoming a "hero".

 

http://www.designntrend.com/articles/61662/20150928/once-upon-time-season-5-spoilers-ep-dishes-premiere-episode.htm

Edited December 6, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I feel like they could have explored all of those issues better if they didn't devote so much time to Merida. :D

I can't believe it's almost that time of the year again to rate and judge the entire 5a arc. It seems like just yesterday we were all listing the best/worst episodes of 4b (or attempting to erase it from our memories), the pro's and cons, reevaluating our favorites, etc....where has the time gone?

Edited December 6, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Rumsy4]

Or was it waiting a few days before dropping Rumple like a hot potato?  I mean, I'm glad Belle finally dumped him, but this was not at all satisfying after all Rumple put her through in Season 4.  It almost seemed like we were meant to feel sorry for Rumple, being rejected after becoming a "hero".

 

Yeah. It's the Lasagne-moment all over again. Pretty much everyone--whether Rumbelle fans or not--seem to feel that the breakup was oddly timed. Some fans think she ought to have taken him back, now that he had become what she always wanted, especially after desperately trying to save him. I don't know what the writers meant to accomplish there, but that moment was out of place and unnecessary. They should have just have Belle not show up at the well to meet Rumple.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Some fans think she ought to have taken him back, now that he had become what she always wanted, especially after desperately trying to save him.

Replying in Relationships. 

[KAOS Agent]

On some level, it's hard to judge them on Belle's late season story arc because Emilie announced she was pregnant while they were knee deep in writing the season. Given when she announced and how big she is, she's almost certainly due before filming ends which makes her unavailable late in the season and difficult to fit into the 5B storyline. They had to come up with a way to write her out while still making the Hero!Rumpel story work.

 

I think they decided to sacrifice Belle's character in an effort to set up Rumpel's complicated character motivations going forward. He's a hero now, but is still rejected by Belle. So now he's powerless and loveless. Heroism is a poor reward when being good still means your life sucks. Rumpel should talk to Emma about that. This will push him into struggling with looking for ways to regain power. He may descend into villainy yet again.

[Camera One]

On some level, it's hard to judge them on Belle's late season story arc because Emilie announced she was pregnant while they were knee deep in writing the season. Given when she announced and how big she is, she's almost certainly due before filming ends which makes her unavailable late in the season and difficult to fit into the 5B storyline. They had to come up with a way to write her out while still making the Hero!Rumpel story work.

 

So you think Belle would have remained with Rumple if not for the pregnancy?

[Rumsy4]

So you think Belle would have remained with Rumple if not for the pregnancy?

 

One scenario is Belle and Rumple get back together, and would have become separated by the new threat arriving in the 5A finale. The writers like to separate Rumbelle every half-season.  

[KingOfHearts]

What exactly was the point of Snow and Charming getting sanded? They got cured in the next episode. It's not like Arthur was thrown off the trail by thinking they were cool with him for more than five seconds. It does make sense that Arthur would do that, but it's crazy that he still has a supply of sand. It's never used again, so it's not a foreshadowing.

 

Maybe the writers just didn't want Snowing captured. But if you wanted to be clever, just have Regina and Emma working on the Merlin spell while they're away then save them in 5x06... I don't know. I feel like there were better ways to write the Snowing adventure in 5x04 and just the Storybrooke vs. Camelot stuff in general.

Edited December 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I think the writers just wanted to fulfil their Snowing episode and then be done with them for the rest of the half-season arc.

[KAOS Agent]

So you think Belle would have remained with Rumple if not for the pregnancy?

 

I'm not sure that they would have been together as it were, but I think she'd have stuck around to work through her issues with him rather than going off to find herself or whatever she's planning. I can't explain why until after the finale airs and everyone is aware of where 5B is going, but the possibilities for Rumbelle in 5B would be fascinating. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I see what you mean.  Though to me, the possibilities for Rumbelle every half season could have been fascinating.  I mean, even 5A.  And then we got "Belle and the Giant Bell Jar" followed by "The Bear and the Bow".  I have zero faith the writers know how to write for this couple, even less so than many of the other main characters.

[YaddaYadda]

I have zero faith the writers know how to write for this couple, even less so than many of the other main characters.

 

Is it that they don't know how to write for them, or just don't wanna write for them? Or maybe it's a combination of both. Because we know they can write for a couple if they choose to write for them, see Snowing in the EF flashbacks and Captain Swan.

 

I think Emilie's pregnancy came into play in this one, and I think the writers were all too happy they don't have to write for the couple. They don't even know what to do with Belle on a good day, which is too bad because Belle is more than a bunch of books, and research.

 

While I'm very glad she decided to walk away from Rumple, because at some point, it should be about her, and not him. The turn around was a bit jarring. I didn't feel she was going to take him back, but then her actions after he woke up made me wonder.

[Amerilla]

Belle walked away from Rumpel because it was Episode 10.

 

Previous characterization, real-life pregnancy, common sense....doesn't matter a smidge. Belle and Rumpel have broken up or been broken up by outside forces around this point every single season from Skin Deep on. Five frigging times in a row.

 

(We may actually have reached Peak Rumbelle - the characters now break up and reunite with no actual relationship in the middle.)

 

I don't think it's that the writers' don't know how to write the relationship or don't want to write the relationship. I think it's their ham-fisted solution to a narrative problem. One of Rumpel's most profound emotional hangups is the perception he can't be loved. It doesn't matter whether he's good or evil - Rumpel can't get the girl. His Happily Ever After is always out of reach, or an illusion. So to keep that emotional theme running, Belle has to remain a moving target.

 

That worked pretty well in S2 and S3a, when Belle became a regular and it was clear that she had a great deal of influence over Gold in both positive (as Belle and HalluciBelle) and negative (as Lacey) ways. While I don't believe the show actually has "redemption arcs" - any and all personal growth can be overwritten for the purposes of the story du jour - he was a far more rounded character during that period, in large part because he had a way to voice his internal struggle to a empathetic figure.

 

At the end of S3a, though, the narrative drive began to push Gold back to his dark side, and since her behaviors are meant to push his behaviors (and because they are atrocious writers) her actions have become a lot more arbitrary and unfeeling.

 

So in S3b, we have to believe that Belle would resurrect him to help fight Wicked, but after Wicked gets him, she rides back to tell everyone....and then apparently sits on her ass watching Snow gestate for the next six or seven months with NO effort to mount a resuce.

 

In 4a, you have to believe that the woman who was given the Dagger because she the Girl Least Likely to use it, and then uses it TWICE in a half-dozen episodes.

 

In 4b, you have to believe that the woman who loved Rumpel enough to bring him back from the dead would not only force him into the LWM without so much a a warm coat or a backwards glance, but be back on the dating scene within about a month of breaking up with him.

 

Here, you have to believe that she'd reject him right after he met the minimum bar of non-evilness that she's been pushing for 4.5 seasons.

 

A better set of writers/showrunners would probably exploit the natural tensions within the relationships, rather than relying on random gauntlets and split-second changes in attitude.  Here, it's just part of the general crappiness of the plotting and the pathological fear of letting characters do anything other than service the plot du jour.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Amerilla

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think it's that the writers' don't know how to write the relationship or don't want to write the relationship. I think it's their ham-fisted solution to a narrative problem.

Replying in Writing thread.

[retrograde]

I’m sure people are still digesting, but I’m interested to know people’s thoughts on the half-season in its entirety and they where would rank it overall.

 

Me?

 

Liked

• The different narrative structure, with the mystery set up in the first episode then unfolding throughout
• Hot Merlin
• I generally enjoyed Camelot and all that entailed
• Zelena. What a comeback!
• Hook finally getting his own storyline AND some backstory
• Imp Rumple (sorta)
• Minimal Belle
• Henry had his own storyline, and it was ok!
• Emma finally has her own house. I am mostly glad because now people will stop complaining about this.

 

Didn’t like

• This season was just generally very angsty. It wasn’t really fun.
• Merida. The character had potential but was such an afterthought. I think they only did it because they thought it would drive more PR/viewers, but I think Dark Swan and Camelot was plenty and it ended up being a waste
• JMo’s Dark Swan voice
• The finale felt rushed and full of retconning, though that is par for the course now I suppose
• Snowing barely did anything all season

 

Overall, right now, I’m at:
1, 3A, 4A, 5A, 4B, 2, 3B

Edited December 7, 2015 by retrograde

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I'll get back with my thoughts/ranking of 5a tomorrow. :) I need to sleep. Lol.

I'm interested to see what everyone's thoughts are too. I feel like this half is going to be rather mixed on the overall like/dislike scale as well as where people decide to place it in their season rankings.

[tennisgurl]

I need to think on it a lot more, but in retrospect, I am pretty disappointed in how little Camelot and the Merida stuff tied into the main arc. 

 

I am really interested in what everyone else thinks!

[KingOfHearts]

I waited for the finale to make my final judgement in comparing 5A with the other arcs. Frankly, tonight it pushed it below 4B for me. The nail in the coffin was the number of setups and quests for hope trampled by forced twists and just plain lazy writing that didn't bother to address what it should have. Dark Swan? Nah, she's not really evil - she just made mistakes. Merida? Nah, she's not relevant. Camelot? Nah, it's just a random kingdom that won't have any stake in the climax. Emma's promise with Regina? Nah, Regina never accomplishing anything for her "friend". Destroying the darkness once and for all? Nah, we're back to square one with that one. Rumple becoming a hero? Nah, he's still a villain. Belle seeing the world? Nah, she's back with her bae. Zelena's return? Nah, we put her butt on a bus back to Oz.

 

One of this show's biggest problems is lacking movement in the overall main plot. Usually the main plot refers to the general arcs of the main characters and their relationships. Sometimes it's their living conditions and long-term circumstances, like having babies, getting married or moving. Most of that was put on pause through most of 5A to focus on Camelot, Merlin and Merida. That's not bad in of itself if their stories drive the character development of the mains, but they really don't. The only lasting effect was Emma and Hook continuing to be DOs for the rest of their lives. (You know they'll save Hook.) But that has nothing to do with anything except Excalibur and the Darkness. Everything else amounted to nothing.

 

Besides the disgusting lack of payoff, 5A was just depressing. The showrunners never did anything particularly fun with it, aside from maybe attempting to with 5x09. The overall tone was dire and stressful all the way through and that bugged me. This is a show about fairy tales, which while dark can also be whimsical. Cruella was a psychopathic serial killer who killed her own mother. That's pretty dark, but she was still a blast to watch. 5A took itself very seriously. I miss my cheesiness.

 

4B, in a sense, was truer to the spirit of Once Upon a Time. You got to see random backstories, some of the real world, some over-the-top villainy, focus on Snow White and Prince Charming, etc. Believe me when I say that writing was craptastic, but to me there were bits and pieces more enjoyable to watch. The only moments in 5A that I really liked and will remember were with Zelena. 

 

So here's my ranking:
S1, 2A, 3A, 4B, 4A, 5A, 2B, 3B

[Mathius]

For me, the order would be S1, 3A, 2A, 4A, 5A, 3B, 2B, 4B.

5A was decidedly mediocre, but not as frustrating as 3B, 2B and 4B were.

[Curio]

I think I might reserve judgement until we figure out if Camelot and Merida will have any wrap-up in 5B, because yeah, otherwise their storylines seemed like a huge waste of time.

 

But overall, I really enjoyed most of 5A. I think it's definitely going to be the most re-watchable half season because the writers actually set up some neat foreshadowing from the beginning, which they almost never do. 

 

If I throw out the stupid Regina plotline about her not knowing how to dance, the cringe-worthy Henry/Violet stuff, and the two useless Merida episodes, I'd actually call 5A my favorite half season yet.

 

And 4B will forever remain a piece of dog poo that I'll never be able to fully scrape off the bottom of my shoe.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Both Emma and Hook made huge strides in deciding who they were this arc, and CS got a lot of focus this season. That's pretty much my main reason for watching the Show. So, despite all the blatant retcons, plot holes, and dropped plot, 5A will be one of my favorite seasons.

Here's my order: S1, 5A, 3A, 2A, 2B, 3B, 4B.

[HoodlumSheep]

So, so torn on where to place 5a in the grand scheme of things. :(

Pro's:

-liked the Camelot setting

-new costumes are always a plus

-lack of Regina

-Merlin, despite all the nonsense, Elliot brought so much charisma to the role

- I liked the DO mythology, and I liked Nimue.

-awesome development for CS

-Hook backstory

-Zelena was pretty great

-the rest of the Camelot actors. I love, love, loved Shady Arthur especially!

-I'm cool with Rumple being the DO again

-Dark Hook was fun to watch.

-Robin/Sean's shocked/sad faces. He shows more emotion when something bad happens (like Emma tethering herself to the dagger,Killy dying, Killy dying again) than any of the other characters. At least his character shows emotion in those cases. I guess everyone (besides emma of course) managed to look somewhat upset when Hook sacrificed himself).

Cons (oh, boy):

-continuity problems

-ridiculously confusing magic rules (they aren't even trying any more)

-Merlin's storyline didn't really make any sense. We never got answers. Kind of a waste.

-the unfinished Camelot crew plot (I feel bad for them, but if A&E wrap it up in 5b, then I'll take this off the list).

-last minute Regina shoehorning in the finale.

-lack of Snowing

-Granny and the dwarves (and Lancelot) were wasted after a promising beginning

-the usual middle season dragging and end of scene rushing.

-Merida. MERIDA. MEriDa. M.e.r.i.d.a. Two completely wasted episodes concerning her. Her story was so far removed from everything else. Heck, the camelot crew fit in better.

-Dark Swan being not quite evil enough. She didn't drag her family enough (at least Darth Killian dropped truth bombs).

-the 5x11 sword scene was possibly too Buffy-esque. I've never actually watched Buffy (except for maybe about 10 episodes), so this really shouldn't affect my my judgement (I thought it was fine), but all the "they ripped off Buffy!" stuff is affecting my mojo. All the negative energy waves. It's kind of stressing me out, so I'm going to try to ignore it because I don't want it to ruin my day.

I would rewatch more episodes from this season than I would 4b. I'd gladly rewatch 5x01-5x04, 5x07, 5x08 and 5x10/11 again. Compared to just 2 episodes from 4b. I think I'd only rewatch about 5 episodes from 4a, so I guess it ranks higher than all of season 4 despite all the continuity/magic plot hole crap.

Really all the great CS stuff made me like this season a lot despite all the nonsense, but I recognize that more CS can't solve everything.

Season 1, 3a, Wonderland, 5a, 2a, 4a, 3b, 2b, 4b.

I guess. *shrugs* I just don't know. If anything I'd maybe switch 5a and 2a around, but all the CS gives 5a an advantage over 2a, so ?????

Best episode of the season (based solely on the episode and not judging it if plot/magic points presented in the episode are later dropped or contradicted in later episodes).

Birth was the best. Best episode since Cruella's centric IMO.

As for the worst:

Very hard decision, but it basically came down to Te Bear and the Bow (5x06), Dreamcatcher (5x05), or The Bear King (5x09).

While I actually thought 5x06 was decent, it and 5x09's biggest flaw was that they were so far removed from entire plot line of 5a. They were so isolated from the rest of 5a, it was too ridiculous to ignore. 5x05 was just so boring. So, so boring. I thought Broken Kingdom was more engaging, and those flashbacks didn't even include the main characters. Same with 5x07. The Camelot crew had enough charisma to carry their scenes.

Hmmm...torn between 5x06 and 5x09 for the worst. The episodes weren't bad (although Merida was awful), but the isolated storyline was too much for me to overlook.

Lastly, I'd like to add that I think they should let Rumple go after 5b. If they're going to redeem him, they need to stick with it at this point. He's surpassed his number of chances to be redeemed at this point. Either have him die in 5b or offed by the heroes, bring in a final big bad for season 6 and end it there. yeah, I think they should go back to the 1 story arc format for the last season.

Edited December 7, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Amerilla]

Revisiting my post last night:

 

Belle walked away from Rumpel because it was Episode 10.

Previous characterization, real-life pregnancy, common sense....doesn't matter a smidge. Belle and Rumpel have broken up or been broken up by outside forces around this point every single season from Skin Deep on. Five frigging times in a row.

 

I see what you did there, Adam and Eddy, you sly little devils you.

 

You did 5x10 as Rumbelle Breakup Pattern 1A/2A/4A, then had her come back in 5x11 and do Rumbelle Breakup Pattern 3B/4B.

 

So clever.

 

</sarcasm>

Edited December 7, 2015 by Amerilla

[AmeliaBedelia]

My rankings

 

Season 1: It's very rare that the pilot is one of the best episodes of a series. I've rewatched the pilot and Snow Falls the most out of all the eps.

3A: I loved Neverland and Robbie Kay's Peter Pan. Also joined the Once online community at this point (it's more fun to complain with others). 

5A: Started strong. I loved the initial introduction to Camelot (the ball, the costume changes, Hook's floppy hair). Definitely petered out in the middle. Will watch Hook/Emma scenes over and over to get me through the hiatus. Truly impressed with Colin and JMo this half. 

2A: Snow fought for Emma. Season 2 Hook was super fun.

3B: Placed here mostly because of "The Jolly Roger" and the awesome finale.

4A: Elsa was okay. I work in a daycare, so I could not escape Frozen fever. 

2B and 4B are tied for me in terms of their rage-inducing pointlessness. I never want to hear the terms "Home Office" or "Happy Endings" on this show again.

 

Ranking Hook's deaths (for science):

 

5x08: This one was perfect. The irony of Hook getting nicked by Excalibur. His begging Emma to let him go and Emma's "That's not enough for me" gave me chills. Plus, I had the benefit of not being too spoiled. Birth was a great episode all around.

5x11: The death didn't get me when I first watched it probably because Hook's change of heart was abrupt and he got super talky. However, I loved the little moments: Emma saying "I don't want to lose you," Hook's nod and telling her it was okay, the way Emma grabbed his neck like oh shit that Excalibur cut is still there, Hook got to see Emma change back to herself, Emma refusing to let go of his hand, and Snow's "I'm sorry baby."

3x20: I'm counting Hook's near drowning. Emma gave up her magic for him and she called him Killian which was rare at the time.

4x22: I liked this one, but the AU story had already been done. Charming looked super hot when he stabbed CowardHook, but I do like to forget that 4B exists.

 

 

 

[Serena]

ETA: I decided to look at the Funkopop figurines' rankings on Amazon to see which had sold the most. In order from most to least popular: Hook, Emma, Regina, Rumple, Snow, Charming, The "Hero" set (Emma, Snowing) is also much, much more popular than the "Villain" set (Hook, Regina, Rumple), which surprises me.

Makes sense to me. Usually, Hook fans don't like Rumple/Regina, Regina fans don't like Hook/Rumple, etc. So they would be less inclined to buy a "set". However, Snowing fans generally like Emma, and viceversa.

 

AmeliaBedelia, I pretty much agree with your whole post, except I would rank AU!Hook's death higher than the near drowning.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Serena

[daxx]

S1, 3A, 4A, 2A, 3B, 5A, 4B, 2B

3a above 4a by heads and shoulders, then the rest kinda fall in close together. 3b was angsty but still in a fun way where there was so little fun in 5A.

To this day I blame the demise of 2B on Colin being clumsy.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'll take stab (ha!) out of ranking Hook's deaths.

1. "Birth"-pretty perfect in my opinion

2. "Swan Song"-pretty solid as well, I teared up. Not quite as good as #1 though.

3. 3x20 (was it titled "Kansas?")- poor Hook being drowned. :( Emma gave up her magic because she's a decent person.

4. "Op. Mongoose"-Evil AU!Charming makes me giggle too much. I'm sorry, but I couldn't take that scenes very seriously. Lol. Also, this kicked off the rest of the episode's hyperspeed pace, therefore in the last 10ish? 15ish? Minutes I had no time to react to it properly. So the emotional significance was lost on me.

Favorite Villlians as of 5a:

1. Mother flippin' Cora!

2. Jafar (ouatiw)

3. Pan

4. King Shady! I loved shady Arthur so much. I'm not afraid to admit it either.

Zelena won back some points too.

Overall ranking of new characters:

1 Arthur

2 merlin (elliot's charisma!)

3 nimue (I thought Caroline Ford was excellent)

3.5 Guinevere-wish we could have seen more of her.

4 Percival (yep, you read that right)

5 Violet (she was nice and sweet)

6 Baby Green Bean Pistachio (her name alone earns her a better ranking than Merida)

Macintosh

7. The brave characters excluding Merida

8 Papa Hook-awful father. I also still don't quite believe his story or how he changed for the better.

.

.

.

#7383837 merida. Just...no.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but I've ranked the ones who's names I can remember.

[Shanna Marie]

As sloppy as the execution for 5A was, I still have to rank it above 4B and maybe even 4A for a few reasons. One is watchability. I've found when rewatching the previous episode each week while waiting for the new one that I'm barely fast forwarding, with a few exceptions. There was the Regina-heavy one early in the season, with all the Percival nonsense and the lunacy of her never having been to a ball, there were the two Merida episodes, and there was the Henry/Violet episode, but otherwise, I've rewatched the entire episode without skipping scenes. There were good scenes even in all but the second Merida episode, which I've never bothered to rewatch. The only other season where I've watched that much upon rewatch was season one. With 4A, I skipped a lot, and with 4B, I watched one episode and a few scenes.

 

I also have to give them points for trying something ambitious. This arc may have been really sloppily executed, but it had some interesting concepts to it. 4B was a bad concept badly executed. 4A started with promise and took a drastic downhill slide into anticlimax, and I felt like this arc actually built toward something rather climactic and powerful. It may have had plot holes you could drive a Death Star through, but it still built to something. Hook's big sacrifice, the reveal that Rumple got his power back, and the trip to the Underworld sure beat the Marx Brothers Shattered Sight spell, followed by the "oh wait, never mind" of Rumple's plot and the abrupt switch to "let's help Regina get her happy ending!"

 

Meanwhile, even turning Emma into the Dark One was less character assassinating than her enthusiastically jumping on board with Operation Mongoose (including the name) and truly believing that Regina needed to rewrite the rules of the universe to get the happy ending she was denied when she wasn't allowed to murder her two-day boyfriend's wife.

[YaddaYadda]

Ranking the half-seasons. I'm not going to count season 1 in this because general consensus is that it was the best.

 

I'm gonna go 3A, 5A, 3B, 4A, 2A, 4B and 2B.

 

I think 5A could have been really good if it didn't have so many plot holes. The plot holes have driven me insane. There were huge continuity issues, and a lot of unanswered questions. Everything has basically been left up in the air.

 

I don't understand why Lancelot was brought on. They should've left him dead. Liam Garrigan and Elliot Knight were two awesome performers, and I will take them back any day of the week. They did so good with their characters. Caroline Ford, ditto, though I thought she was a bit lack luster in the finale. But you can't squeeze lemonade out of shriveled up lemons.

 

5A did not need Merida, and it certainly did not need 2 Merida centrics. Instead, they could've used the extra 42 minutes they were given to answer questions, like I don't know, why did Merlin brew the Dark Curse? I don't know, I mean that's sort of an important question. Why did he want them to find Nimue who is apparently so evil.

 

In terms of episodes, I thought that 5x07 and 5x08 were by far the strongest outing this first half. It's really rare that I liked an episode that is centered around guest stars, and it's not even the writing that was impressive, it was what the actors did with it. Elliot Knight and Caroline Ford sold the hell out of it, especially when she was about to crush Vortigan's heart. This scene, next to Emma's moment of "I am not nothing" made the episode for me.

 

Weakest episodes, I'll go with 5x05, and 5x09. I didn't hate 5x05, but let's not do a Henry centric ever again. I really despised 5x09, because the show seemed to finally hit its stride with 5x08, and then we got something about magical helmets, and Arthur being an even bigger douche than we thought he was.

 

I wish the writers would focus on closing some of the plot holes. Shit becomes confusing after a while, and I can't believe that in a room filled with writers, no one feels it has to be done.

[Camera One]

5A was a mixed bag as usual, but the valleys were pretty bad, and I didn't find a whole lot to like.  It wasn't outright insulting like 4B but its blandness in some ways made it just as unenjoyable.  The acting was good for the Emma/Hook stuff but I missed Emma.  Real Emma.

 

I guess I would go 1 > > 2A / 4A > > > > > 3A > >  2B > 5A > 3B / 4B 

 

But really, all the seasons had major problems and the latter four (2B,5A,3B,4B) were all equally bad in different ways.

[Mari]

And while I enjoyed a lot of the Hook/Emma stuff, I do feel very cheated of the promised Emma/Charmings drama, as well as some righteous anger at some people who've deserved it.

 

A little less Captain Swan and a lot less Merida, and that could've happened.

[KingOfHearts]

I do give 5A credit for changing up the formula and giving a few consequences. Going forward, you pretty much have to cite it when explaining Emma or Hook's character arc. Their PTSD might not always be addressed directly, but it will help shape their personalities from now on. Unlike other seasons, the threat wasn't from an external force, but it was created from main characters. That's very refreshing coming after S3 and S4.

 

5B seems to have a goal that isn't reactive, which gives me some hope. The characters are voluntarily choosing to save Hook. They weren't forced to go to the Underworld. That is character-driven over plot-driven (well, at least in Emma's case). I'm glad we get some relative stability among them after all the tearing apart in 4B and 5A. Emma gets to be passionately determined. Snow and Charming get to do something exclusively for their daughter. Regina and Rumple get to confront their pasts. Henry and Robin can.... cheer from the sidelines using their Powers of Blandness, I guess?

Edited December 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't know about consequences.  Emma was pretty much back to her old self by the last shot.  In fact, she was already acting like herself when Dark Hook got the faux-villain baton.  Mentioning once in a while that they know how being dark feels like doesn't cut it as character development, especially when I still don't buy why Emma stooped to taking Violet's heart in the first place.  So to me, it's about as hard to swallow as the dumb egg-napping retcon in Season 4.  

 

And the supposed biggest consequence... Rumple no longer being the Dark One - didn't stick.  

 

On paper, there was a goal in 5A... save Emma and free her from the Darkness.  And an entire half-season of floundering, pointless subplots, pointless characters, deceptive misdirects, and dumb decisions, followed by a deus-ex-machina resolution ensued.  What else is new....

Edited December 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

5A did have a positive, proactive goal: save Emma. The problem was that the only characters who actually did anything at all toward that goal were Emma and Hook. And then there was the secret subgoal of Emma's, to save Hook, but the problem there was that the audience didn't know about that until the end of the arc, and then she utterly failed.

 

All that meant that we were right back to our usual pattern of the villains doing stuff and the heroes sitting around or reacting badly to what the villains are doing until the very end, when they pull something out of thin air to save the day. With Emma and Hook, we did at least get some sense of them going through steps toward a plan -- keep Emma sane until they could save her, free Merlin, get the flame, get the sword. In the present, it was a weirdly paced jumble with them mostly just sitting around, apparently for three weeks, until they finally figured out Arthur was crooked and Hook realized something was up with Emma and forced the issue. Meanwhile, Emma's Save Hook plan amounted to odd digressions into Merida's and Rumple's lives. I suppose in a sense the conclusion didn't come out of thin air because the whole arc was about wrestling with and resisting darkness, only it turned out to be Hook and not Emma who was key, and all the stuff he was saying to her about it turned out to apply to him.

 

5B's proactive, positive goal of saving Hook has potential, but then again, given their pattern, that means there will be a lot of random fooling around that goes nowhere in the Underworld, with them not actually taking any proactive steps toward their goal until everything is suddenly and dramatically resolved at the last second by something has nothing to do with what has been built up all season.

[justcris]

Apart from Merida (whose appearance didn't make much sense to me), I think this season was full of potentially great ideas - Dark Emma, Camelot, Merlin, Dark Hook, the Underworld - and yet it feels like none of them were given a fair chance. 

 

We didn't have time to learn anything about Dark Emma, because they wanted to do the Dark Hook twist (which I'll admit I loved, but I hate that it came at the expense of Emma's development). At the beginning of the season we see her pretty much faking it to protect Hook, so we ended up with only flashbacks of Dark Emma in Camelot, which personally I didn't think were enough to understand Emma's journey into the darkness.

Camelot was kind of interesting, until it wasn't. Merlin could have been such a great character, but in the end he only served the plot and we got almost no answers from him. "Nimue is the key to destroying the darkness!" Gee can you vague that up for me?! (Buffy has been on my mind lately, of course)

I think visiting the Underworld sounds awesome, but the way we got there could have been so much better. As it stands, it started almost in the same way as the Neverland visit, beat for beat (big crisis averted, but then they need to go save someone, and they need Gold's help to do so). Now, I think the Neverland half season was one of the better ones, but this setup felt familiar, not in a good way.

Dark Hook was pretty good, but rushed and his motivations weren't entirely clear. The moment when Hook is looking at Emma suffering at the hands of Nimue and we can see the transformation in his face (major props to Colin for that) was one of my favourite moments, but I feel that we should have had more insight into Dark Hook to really understand him. The last minute flashback with his father didn't work for me, and shoehorning Regina into it really didn't work for me.

 

I think one of the biggest problems with the season were the side plots of Merida and Camelot, which ended up serving as little more than distractions with hardly any purpose. Imagine they had truly dedicated the whole half season to the core characters, and to the development of Dark Emma and Dark Hook. I know it's nothing new that these writers prefer shiny new characters and plot!plot!plot! to character development, but I think it *really* detracted from the main story this time around.

 

Also, they seem to be unable to construct an arc without the use of flashbacks, which, enough already. I would be fine if we went a couple of episodes without the flashback structure. I think this season would have been better served with a regular timeline. Of course, the Dark Hook twist wouldn't have worked, but all the rest would have worked better IMO. The loss of memory in order to justify the flashbacks just felt so forced.