A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[myril]

This show has gone to a very morally dark and twisted place indeed. 

 

I wouldn't mind the show going to a morally dark, twisted place, if it would be clear as a dark and twisted place. Though I am not always sure, if it's the show runners and writers or more parts of the audience who are the ones putting things behind rosa glasses, probably it's both.

 

(my grammar fairy has taken a long vacation while the misspelling gnome is having a great day, sorry)

Edited November 3, 2014 by katusch

[Jean]

Well the good (or actually bad) thing is A&E are always ready and willing to spew sound bites left and right so that you never have to question what their intent is or how they view the show. And even if they didn't, their writing is as subtle as a mack truck. Some of the audience buys what they're selling and some sees it as poop.

[Rumsy4]

I wouldn't mind the show going to a morally dark, twisted place, if it would be clear as a dark and twisted place. Though I am not always sure, if it's the show runners and writers or more parts of the audience who are the ones putting things behind rosa glasses, probably it's both.

 

I tried giving the writers the benefit of the doubt, but in the show, they've consistently presented messed up morality as something good and praise-worthy. 

[Camera One]

I was reading this review of "Family Business":

http://tvsourcemagazine.com/2014/11/upon-time-review-frozen-fatigue-overshadows-family-business/

 

It seems to be arguing that "Frozen" is taking up too much screentime at the expense of the regular characters.  But then it goes on to imply that we should be spending more time with Regina (and Robin) and Rumple (and Hook).  I really feel that there is enough screentime for Regina and Rumple.  I suppose there should be more continuity with Regina/finding author/Robin and the Rumple//hat/Hook stuff, but meh.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Camera One

[Joanh23]

What I like about 4A is that it is finally focusing on Emma & her past. I think we've had quite a bit of a Rumple so far in 4A - ans a little bit of Rumple goes a long way. We'll see enough of Regina in 4B so I'm more than happy to let them focus on Emma for a while

[FabulousTater]

I was reading this review of "Family Business":

http://tvsourcemagaz...amily-business/

I'm laughing at the double standards. The writer of that review says that the Snow Queen's motivations/plans are "so ridiculous that it hurts [their] head" and her plot "might be the most contrived of them all". And yet, they turn right around and complain that Regina's plot line of trying to find the storybook author to force them to give her her happy ending doesn't get enough screen time. Like, that shit doesn't make your head hurt? Like that's not the poster child of contrived plot lines??? I mean, what?!? Hate to break it to you, reviewer, but Regina's search for the storybook author plot line is full of exactly the same amount of (if not more) batshit crazy, narcissistic, lack of self-awareness, evil villain logic as the Snow Queen's plan. Though, at least the Snow Queen's plan makes sense in terms of a psycho's kind of logic. Regina's plan doesn't even pass that. Regina's plan is what you get if you drop someone on their head several times then give them a hit of acid, for all the sense it makes.

[Camera One]

The character-assassination centrics continued this week.  They made Belle look idiotic, gullible, unstable and selfish.  

 

but I'm not sure there's a whole lot of love for whiny, victim blaming Regina. 

 

Some viewers don't see Regina as whiny or victim blaming, though.  They see her as misunderstood and rejected by sanctimonious people who aren't any better.

[Rumsy4]

The character-assassination centrics continued this week.  They made Belle look idiotic, gullible, unstable and selfish.  

 

It made it seem as though a guilt-complex has been driving Belle all along. She wanted to be a "Hero" to make up for letting Anna fall of a cliff. She wants to save the Beast as a sort of penance for letting Anna potentially die. She didn't even tell Elsa about the fall. Add to that her using what she thought was the Dagger to control her husband, knowing full well that he had been enslaved for a whole year by Zelena, the mind boggles!! 

[KingOfHearts]

Would S3 have been better if the cast had gone to Oz instead of Neverland? I loved how 3A focused on the main cast, but the setting was boring enough to scare away some faithful watchers. I think there would have been more interest in Oz if they would have shown more of Oz itself instead of just Zelena. There's so much to the lore that I could see them easily creating an entire 22-episode arc around it. I would have liked them to go deeper in the four witches, and perhaps tack on one to be used as a secondary antagonist. Perhaps the first 11 episodes could be in Oz, then the other 11 be in Storybrooke? The new curse would have been the cliffhanger?

Edited November 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Some viewers don't see Regina as whiny or victim blaming, though.  They see her as misunderstood and rejected by sanctimonious people who aren't any better.

Hahahahahah.

Oh.

Huh. 

 

 

That's sort of creepy.

 

(But . . . but . . . she's killed thousands of people and raped someone for years.  Who are the judgey, sanctimonious people who aren't any better who've killed thousands of people?  Because not eating lasagna isn't the same thing.)

Edited November 5, 2014 by Mari

[regularlyleaded]

I was doing some reading on the net and came across this in Wikipedia (I know, I know,  Wikipedia isn't exactly scientifically peer-reviewed, but still...):

Psychologist Martha Stout states that sociopaths frequently use gaslighting tactics. Sociopaths consistently transgress social mores, break laws, and exploit others, but typically, are also charming and convincing liars who consistently deny wrongdoing. Thus, some who have been victimized by sociopaths may doubt their perceptions.[8] Jacobson and Gottman report that some physically abusive spouses may gaslight their partners, even flatly denying that they have been violent.

As I sat there reading this, all I could think was "This. Is. Regina! Regina, Regina, Regina!!! OMFG. It's effing REGINA!"
 
I don't understand how the writers can't see that the character they've constructed is a homicidal narcissistic sociopath and that they are actively touting this lunatic as simply misunderstood and a "hero" and "good" person. I just want to send them the textbook outlining sociopaths with narcissistic traits (with the appropriate sections highlighted) and a picture of Regina glued next to those bits, and a big freaking arrow pointing at the picture and a caption that reads "Homicidal Sociopath = Bad, Regina = Homicidal Sociopath, Regina = Bad." 
 
Just....How do they not see what they are doing?!? Their interpretation of what is "good" and what they deem as "heroism" has become so corrupted, so utterly bankrupt of any moral value by their depraved Regina permaboner, that I'm simply incapable of processing this.  <ERROR! Does. NOT. Compute.> Three seasons worth of this madness -- nonstop dementia brought to you by ONCE -- and I still can't swallow this bullshit that they're peddling.
 
...You know what? I know what they're doing. The writers are gaslighting us! We know Regina is a homicidal sociopath. We've seen her massacre villagers, attempt to slaughter an infant, mentally abuse a child, murder three people with her own hands, burn someone at a stake (and yet she says she did nothing wrong. Noooo, it's the books fault!) We know Regina is an "I've crossed the moral event horizon so many times that it's named after her" cray-cray, murderous fruitcake, but by repeatedly having characters pretend all the bad things she did didn't happen or that they weren't bad, and have her victims go around begging Regina for her forgiveness, the writers are trying to make us think we're the crazy ones!  (thank goodness for this support group forum ;)

Edited November 5, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[myril]

Remember "The Third Wave"?

 

Strength through love, strength through hope, strength through ignorance, strength through forgetfulness.

 

Once Upon a Time - an experiment in how ethics can be corrupted. Among other things we show how bullying can be turned into a justifiable tool in the quest to find happiness. 

[FurryFury]

Once Upon a Time - an experiment in how ethics can be corrupted. Among other things we show how bullying can be turned into a justifiable tool in the quest to find happiness.

 

Eh, there are lots of works with similar blindness to morality. Strangely and disturbingly, they are often targeted at young women, both in the western media (Twilight, CW shows like The Vampire Diaries and Gossip Girl) and eastern (some shoujo (aimed at teenaged girls) manga I've seen that basically glorifies physical and/or mental abuse because the boyfriend "really loves you", ugh).

[regularlyleaded]

Remember "The Third Wave"?

I've never heard of this. Some quick googling about the topic and I find that it appears to be a rather interesting social experiment in a "Yep, the human race is totally boned" kind of way. Apparently, the movements motto was "Strength through discipline, strength through community, strength through action, strength through pride." For me the motto alone sends out blinking warning signs *danger*danger* and sends up all sorts of red flags because it smacks of indoctrination, but I can see what the allure would be to some. I'm rarely surprised anymore (IRL) at what people can be lured into believing and doing, and never surprised that there are those who are more than happy to thoroughly exploit those that are easily manipulated.

[Shanna Marie]

Once Upon a Time - an experiment in how ethics can be corrupted. Among other things we show how bullying can be turned into a justifiable tool in the quest to find happiness.

I often joke that the morality on this show makes A Game of Thrones look like Sunday school in comparison, but that's really not too big an exaggeration. A Game of Thrones may depict some awful things in extreme gratuitous detail and it lets the good guys lose and the bad guys win quite often, but at the same time it does present a rather consistent morality. The good guys lose when they're being dumb and when they let abstract notions of honor overrule common sense -- really, when they make being "good" and being seen that way their priority, and the show depicts that as a dumb move with bad consequences, like Ned Stark warning Cersei and giving her a chance to flee instead of acting on the knowledge he had about her. That reminds me of Snow letting Regina go after capturing her, putting her on trial and convicting her. Except this show depicts that as Snow being good instead of showing her as being shortsighted or responsible for the destruction Regina later caused to Snow's people.

 

And while AGOT glories in the depraved behavior of its villains, it never tries to show them as being anything but villains. We aren't supposed to sympathize with them, they don't claim that it's the good guys' fault that they're villains, and they don't get to just become good guys and get all their sins forgiven by everyone they wronged. I guess Jaime Lannister sort of counts as a "misunderstood" villain, but it took a long time before the true story about him was revealed, he hasn't whined about being misunderstood, and even as he starts being somewhat redeemed, people still don't give him any break whatsoever for the things he did in the past. There also aren't any good or heroic characters who cheerlead for the villains and try to justify their actions, and the good guys aren't forced to grovel to the villains for friendship.

 

But on this show, the good guys aren't allowed to make tough decisions or do anything "wrong" for the greater good without being raked over the coals for it while the ongoing quasi villains mostly skate by and get called heroes just for not being villains. Good people cheer for them. Their evil acts get excused or forgotten, and there are few lingering consequences.

 

Actually, it wouldn't be so bad if you remove Regina and Belle from the picture. Regina's mostly the one who gets the bizarrely skewed moral treatment, and then Rumple actually would be treated more or less fairly without Belle as his cheerleader.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But yes, the problem is also just that Once has too many characters in general.

This. When you have too much going on, characters tend to get sidelined. Not just any characters, but characters that you know have to actively be doing something somewhere to affect the plot. Like Ingrid or Zelena - what the heck did were they doing all this time? Why didn't anyone ask about Sidney for the last couple of years until Emma did in Breaking Glass? Suddenly dropping characters to fit in new ones creates plot holes. Even if the new characters are better and more interesting (like Frozen), it still plants inconsistencies and cheats the fans who have been watching for certain characters all this time. (Snow/Charming fans, I'm talking to you.)

 

I, in a way, miss when the show was centered around the Snow White tale, with other fairy tales crossing paths. Incorporating other universes like Wonderland is well and good, but the main cast will always be there. They're effectively the anchor that holds the show together. When they're swept out of the picture, the show loses traction fast because it loses the foundation it was built on. Keeping the focus on the mains also keeps the audience from getting too confused, because they're looking for consistency. Otherwise they get lost in all the crazy new stories.

Edited November 7, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

From the spoiler thread:

I agree season-long big bads are great if done right (Buffy) but I think this show doesn't always do them right, for the reasons angelwoody outlined.

The problem may be that instead of season-long big bads, they're cramming an entire big bad story arc into a half season, which makes the show feel kind of choppy and the arc feel incomplete, while they're also rushing around being all PLOT!PLOT!PLOT! so that there's no time for emotional impact or for enough character stuff to see how the characters are growing and changing as a result of events.

 

The way Buffy and Angel used to do the season-long arcs was to start with a kind of "fake" big bad. They were actually bad, but they weren't the thing to really worry about and served to distract the heroes so that they were less prepared for the real big bad. Or else they'd inadvertently pave the way for the real big bad with whatever they did to fight the preliminary big bad. Meanwhile, there would still be monster of the week or case of the week stories because life goes on even when there's a supervillain out there. And there was plenty of time for the show to breathe and to get the kind of moments with the characters that raised the stakes because we cared about them and their relationships. The consequences of events would linger. There was sometimes a cost to them as individuals or to their relationships from them doing what they felt they had to do to defeat evil.

 

If they devoted an entire season to a villain and an arc on this show, then they could deal with all those characters. They'd have time to let the characters grow and develop their relationships. There would also be room to develop life in the town or in the Enchanted Forest and see what the lingering effects, both good and bad, of the curse are. There's less room for monsters of the week/cases of the week in a bubble environment like this show has, but why not devote an episode to Emma and David being sheriffs and having to solve crimes (and encountering storybook characters as criminals and victims -- is someone who's the Big, Bad Wolf in the Enchanted Forest vandalizing the homes of people whose real identity is the Three Little Pigs?) while the main problem looms and lurks?

 

I think the Zelena arc could easily have taken an entire season if they'd slowed down to actually develop her as a character and given her more complex motivations and if they'd actually developed the missing year -- show the impact and the consequences of the return on the people who'd been living in Storybrooke for 30 years, then show the impact and the consequences of them returning to Storybrooke. Let there have been things developed during the missing year that were forgotten upon the return, and then let those things have an impact when the memory curse was broken.

 

One of the things I think Angel did well was having the lurking ongoing villain in the evil law firm. They were often behind the other big bad, but they were like a Hydra in that the good guys could cut one head off (or redeem one) and another would arise, so the good guys didn't look stupid for not beating them and they didn't look ineffective for not immediately beating the good guys. That's where keeping Rumple and Mayor Mills as ambiguous lurking antagonists instead of trying to push them as "redeemed" could have helped. Regina might not be trying to outright kill Snow anymore, but she might still be scheming to get her way in the town, even as sometimes she might join with the good guys to defeat a bigger evil who threatened her.

 

And then one of the things I think shows like Buffy and Angel did well was letting one arc drive into the next one. It wasn't like one bad guy was defeated, story over, move on to the next one. Sometimes the next one grew out of the previous one. Zelena was so disconnected from Neverland that it was like two totally different shows. But what if she'd started her scheme because of everyone returning to the Enchanted Forest after she'd established herself as some kind of ruler there? As it was, it just so happened that they arrived while she was making plans, and somehow she knew to expect them to come back (which was never explained).

[Jul 68]

This reminds me of what happened with Veronica Mars. They were chugging along beautifully with a season long arc and single mysteries of the week leading up to the conclusion of the arc. Then they were swallowed up by the CW and TPTB there decided that was too confusing and that it restricted the show from gaining new viewers because they wouldn't be able to catch up and understand what was going on. So, the show runner did as the network bade and changed to the half season arc which ultimately pissed off existing viewers and preciptated the demise of the show.

[Jean]

 

When you have too much going on, characters tend to get sidelined

The strangest thing to me is that nothing much happens. There really isn't a lot going on if we really get down to it. To get the arc you really only have to tune into the 1st or first 2 and the last 2.  I think the writers try way to hard to give everyone a piece of the pie actually, hence the useless centrics. Most of the centrics in fact are to give them something to do but they don't matter all that much to the big story and they don't add anything to the character. If you were to string together the clips that were actually pertinent and moving story forward it'd be 30 mins. for the entire arc, guarantee. Hell I bet some fan can make a 4 minute montage of the whole 11 episode arc set to some emo music and we'd all get the story.

 

 

but the main cast will always be there. They're effectively the anchor that holds the show together. When they're swept out of the picture, the show loses traction fast because it loses the foundation it was built on.

 

I'm not gonna lie but I find the regular characters and their relationships to be stale at best. At worst, I don't even want to touch. My favorite scenes of Rumple this season was the one with Anna in the barn and the ones with DQ last episode. No they don't have to be that way with the regulars, but with these writers they are. And working with what we've got? Well then newbies galore it is. I rather watch new shallow and temporary relationships, that don't matter, all day long than sit through the millionth fairyback of Woegina trying to kill Snow. I rather watch Elsa/Kristoff than any combo of the regulars. I want more scenes of Snow/Will than Snow with any of the regulars. That's how toxic the regulars have become. 

 

Frozen and it's cast, including the DQ is the best thing about this arc. Numbers don't lie. Frozen is the only thing that has increased ratings on this show post S1. All the main cast (aka A&E's writing) has done is drive away viewers. I don't think the casual viewer actually cares how minutes an episode Belle is on or if she's the focus. The foundation of this show is long gone. They've systematically destroyed everything they did in S1 which was the foundation of the show. And it's not like they replaced it with anything good either.

[Mari]

. If you were to string together the clips that were actually pertinent and moving story forward it'd be 30 mins. for the entire arc, guarantee. Hell I bet some fan can make a 4 minute montage of the whole 11 episode arc set to some emo music and we'd all get the story.

This might be my plan for future, Regina-heavy arcs.

 

However, I'm hoping to avoid the emo music.  Maybe something pretentious with violins?  I quite like the violin.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The strangest thing to me is that nothing much happens.

Yeah, let me elaborate. There are a lot of open plots without follow through. Because we have constant new characters, even though there should be a lot going on, we can only work on a few that really don't mean much in the long run. I love Frozen, but it's only here for the half-season, and it's what the show is putting 80% of its time in. If the spotlight was on more longterm matters, like the Charming family relationships, then more would get done. Since we got all this magic hat and Frozen stuff at the forefront, the other plotlines are pushed to the side. The writers can open six storylines, then only actually give payoff on two or three.

 

S2 suffered through this. Because of Team Princess, we couldn't get down to Emma or Snow and Charming's feelings about seeing each other. Then in 2B, when Emma and Snow came back to town, the Cora, Woegina and Neal plots all sidelined the Charmings storyline again. Then there were all the plots from S1, like Jefferson's or Sidney's, that got barely any screen time if at all.

Edited November 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The strangest thing to me is that nothing much happens. There really isn't a lot going on if we really get down to it. To get the arc you really only have to tune into the 1st or first 2 and the last 2.  I think the writers try way to hard to give everyone a piece of the pie actually, hence the useless centrics. Most of the centrics in fact are to give them something to do but they don't matter all that much to the big story and they don't add anything to the character.

 

I would have to agree with this.  I know most people have really enjoyed the "Frozen"/Snow Queen stuff this year, and I definitely don't hate it, don't get me wrong, but nothing has changed in the grand scheme of things, from 3A, 3B or 2B.  Each episode is basically spinning its wheels, and this will continue until the second to last episode of the half-season.  I actually love some shows with glacial plots, IF they provide meaningful character interactions and journeys.  But as Jean said, even when they do a centric, it adds nothing to the character.  This season in particular, it's almost like the centrics degrade the character in order to further the plot. What did we learn about Charming in his centric?  Absolutely nothing in the present-day, and ret-conned cowardice in the flashback.  How far did Belle come in her centric?  Nowhere, since she's still as in-the-dark and deluded as she was before with her faith in Rumple, and they even damaged her character by having her use the dagger on Rumple as a first resort for a futile task.  And then going forward, instead of exploring Emma's actual childhood as we have known it since Season 1, they're going to explore some ret-conned portion of her life which the writers probably made up this summer in anticipation for "Frozen".

 

The way Buffy and Angel used to do the season-long arcs was to start with a kind of "fake" big bad. They were actually bad, but they weren't the thing to really worry about and served to distract the heroes so that they were less prepared for the real big bad. Or else they'd inadvertently pave the way for the real big bad with whatever they did to fight the preliminary big bad. If they devoted an entire season to a villain and an arc on this show, then they could deal with all those characters.

 

One difference is that Buffy and Angel didn't spend multiple episodes and flashbacks devoted to the backstory and mindset of those big bads and fake big bads.  The focus was still ultimately on the protagonists, at least in terms of emotional material.  Here, we had half of 3B devoted to Zelena's feelings of inadequacies.  Seriously, who the heck was interested in that?

 

As KingofHearts said, this season, each episode is pretty much built around developing or introducing guest characters, whether it was Elsa, Anna, the Snow Queen, or The Hat (which is a bigger character than Snow White this season).  As much as I really enjoy Elsa's addition to the show, even she has been sidelined in the last two episodes.  

 

Looking at the S1 threads, the "What Happened to Frederick" one struck me, since it is so indicative of this show.  What happened to Frederick post-Curse?  We shouldn't hold our breath to ever find out or see him happily with Kathryn/Abigail.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

S2 suffered through this. Because of Team Princess, we couldn't get down to Emma or Snow and Charming's feelings about seeing each other. Then in 2B, when Emma and Snow came back to town, the Cora, Woegina and Neal plots all sidelined the Charmings storyline again.

That's not because there are too many characters or too many stories, it's simply because A&E aren't interested in writing that. Every actor, but the ones playing Charmings family, could walk off the set and quit tomorrow, and every ex-Lost cast could block A&E's numbers from their phones and the Charmings storyline will still not get written. They would just close up shop and go home and cry.

If they banned all new characters and just focused on the 7 or 8 main cast? Charmings family still won't get written. You know where that airtime and story will go towards? More of the Charmings victimizing and propping St. Anchor. 1000% guarantee.

If it wasn't for Frozen, Emma would be spending all 11 episodes trailing after Woegina instead of just the one so far. I'm sure that'll be rectified come 4B. If Snow didn't have that 2 minute scene with Will, they would've given it to more Snow kissing Anchor's ass. Guest stars are temporary get out of jail/black hole card. For that I appreciate them all the more. I like them on their own too but it's clear A&E's writing come with a definite expiration date. Stick around too long and they get disgustingly moldy and rancid.

[Camera One]

Sadly, I agree it is a choice of the writers and it is very clear which stories they have zero interest in telling since they just don't tell them.  If you're lucky, they throw a bone and a single scene or half of one.  Look at how much time they spent on Snow and Charming missing Emma in the Missing Year vs. the time they spent on Regina missing Henry.  It's a blatant choice and very telling.  

 

In 2B, there were multitudes of existing character stories to deal with, from Emma/Snow/Charming learning to live & work together, to the townspeople dealing with life with their memories, to Neal/Rumple living in the same town after all this time, to August/Gepetto/wardrobe-gate, and the writers decided they needed to spend time on Tamara and Greg and do "The Evil Queen" instead of telling those stories.  I feel like Emma, Snow and Charming pretty much get busy-work to do with the Superbad of the Half-Season, while Regina and Rumple continue to yo-yo their way around redemption (insert sadface) and fandoms get their alternating episodes in the sun.  Wash-rinse-repeat every half-season.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's not because there are too many characters or too many stories, it's simply because A&E aren't interested in writing that.

The fact they're not interested is why there are too many characters. They find random adventures more interesting than "boring" family dynamics and real relationships. Same thing happened in 3B - they brought in Zelena, then the unnecessary Glinda, Dorothy and Wizard of Oz, instead of actually putting thought into Emma's New York arc. They didn't want to touch it because they didn't have a real reason for her to logically stay in Storybrooke. Fluff is their way of avoiding what really matters. Do any of those characters matter now? Nope. But the Charmings are still there with unresolved issues.

 

In S2 they purposely skipped the character moments because they didn't want to deal with them. Isn't a trek with Princess Aurora and Mulan against Regina's Mom more captivating and fun than what the characters must be feeling after the curse broke?

 

I'm not saying having a lot of characters is bad, I'm just saying the writers are incapable of handling it without some serious neglect.

Edited November 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was thinking about how in 4A, we have Elsa and Snow Queen in present-day (one goodie and one baddie) and also Anna, Kristoffe and Frozen supporting cast in multiple flashbacks.  

 

Meanwhile in 3B, we had Zelena in present-day and Zelena in multiple flashbacks, and then one flashback with Glinda and Dorothy.  I wonder if the over-saturation could have been lessened if we had Glinda and/or Dorothy in present-day Storybrooke, and then flashbacks with a whole host of Oz characters instead of just Zelena.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I wonder if the over-saturation could have been lessened if we had Glinda and/or Dorothy in present-day Storybrooke, and then flashbacks with a whole host of Oz characters instead of just Zelena.

 

Well sure, except Zelena was created to play off of Regina. If you remove Zelena as the focal point of the story, Regina doesn't have her prop anymore. That doesn't fly for the creator's pet. When they have their favorites, they get their story told and everyone else gets put aside or thrown in as filler. I mean, it's obvious David isn't someone they're interested in writing about. This season he was thrown under the bus for Anna's magical mystery tour. They don't care about Emma either except that they wanted Frozen and no one in Disney would let the Evil Queen be compared favorably to Elsa, so Emma finally gets a story. And even there we still got an Emma-centric episode that was all about Regina. 

 

One of the reasons I like Captain Swan is because the writers like Hook and want to write for him. If he's in a relationship with Emma, then that means Emma will get a story too.  However, they love to make Hook carry the idiot ball, so even there I'm unhappy. How can you have entire episode surrounding him getting his hand back, but never even begin to explore the psychological reasons behind him wanting it and then losing it again? Instead it's I want to hold Emma, but it's evil get it away and then that's over we're done with it. I mean, what?

Edited November 8, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Jean]

I'm not saying having a lot of characters is bad, I'm just saying the writers are incapable of handling it without some serious neglect.

Neglect is a saving grace on this show! Except for Belle and Henry. They suck no matter what. I will take fluffy shallow meaningless material over any of their so-called character or relationship drama any day. The fluff is non offensive and most of the time even fun. So yeah I consider neglect and the numerous meaningless guest stars that keep them from digging too deeply, a blessing in disguise. Which is probably why all the centrics smack dab in the middle of the arc, suck. That's all the character moments stuff. Belle/Rumple last episode in the present had none of the guest stars in their big scenes together, did it make it better? Frozen was minimally involved in 4x05 from what I could tell by the number of clips I checked out, does that make it the best episode of the season, compared to the heavy Frozen episodes?

Everytime they try to do high drama and "resolve" issues it all goes straight to the shitter.

Isn't a trek with Princess Aurora and Mulan against Regina's Mom more captivating and fun than what the characters must be feeling after the curse broke?

In hindsight? Yes. Because dealing with feelings gave us Snow's dark heart. While I can appreciate Ginny's great acting in the midst of the suckiest story ever, I can't say that for anyone else besides Robert. So fluff with guest stars it is. Oh and remember the infamous lasagna scene? That was them throwing in a scene to indicate how people felt after the curse. Yeah no thanks.

I rather have the non-deep interactions of Emma and Charming running around playing co-sheriffs and never talking about their issues than the Echo cave scene.

Their "character moments" are quite frankly offensive or annoying, most of the time. Anytime anyone on this show starts to talk about their feelings, it becomes STFU time. See Belle last episode, apologizing all over the place to Rumple. That was a character driven moment that had nothing to do with guest stars.

They have such an effed up worldview of their show, the relationships and characters that I no longer want it explored. Again see 4x05 and what they considered was an exploration of feelings and relationships. Gag me.

Fluff is their way of avoiding what really matters.

I don't think they've really avoided all the stuff that matters. They don't spend as much time on it as people would like but the real problem is that they deal with it dishonestly. They're "dealing" with Snow's fear of letting baby Neal go but they refuse to address the elephant in the room as to how that came about. They dealt with Rumbelle issues, but they're presenting it as an evil mirror messing with Belle. They dealt with the Charming family issue by making it Emma's problem. Giving more time to all that stuff won't fix POV at all. One scene or 11 episodes won't magically change A&E's view. My entire point is that not dealing with all this stuff that "matters" is better than dealing with it dishonestly. And giving a bone with one scene is better than an in-depth effed up look.

This show is at its best when its campy meaningless fun, not the overwrought soap opera. That's all I'm here for now.

[stealinghome]

Neglect is a saving grace on this show!...So yeah I consider neglect and the numerous meaningless guest stars that keep them from digging too deeply, a blessing in disguise.

Sadly, this is true. The only characters that I can still recognize (let alone like) after the clusterfuck that was season 2 are Emma and David, and that's pretty much because they were totally pushed to the side for most of that season. Everyone else who was featured in S2 got a chainsaw to the personality.

 

but the real problem is that they deal with it dishonestly.

Yeah, I think this is key. The problem is both quantity and quality. If the deep stuff was given the same amount of (non-)screentime it is now but was dealt with in a much more honest way, it would feel 500% more satisfying.

Edited November 8, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

I don't think they've really avoided all the stuff that matters. They don't spend as much time on it as people would like but the real problem is that they deal with it dishonestly.

You've hit it in a nutshell. Adam and Eddy are disingenuous writers, and until that changes (never), no amount of focus on the regulars is going to salvage the writing.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Neglect is a saving grace on this show!

Neglect is what I dislike the most about Once Upon a Time. Regina's redemption arc sucks because the writers neglect to give her any works that really redeem her or give her any self-awareness. The reason the show is full of plot holes and inconsistencies is because the writers neglect to plan effectively or keep their timelines straight. They work "dishonestly" because they neglect to work on any build-up or real character development. The show has become a towering house of cards with paper clips and bubble gum keeping it together. I know the showrunners can do better, because I've seen them do it from time to time.

 

Let's agree to disagree, because we have very separate opinions. I do enjoy some of the meaningless fluff I must say, but I prefer to have a balance. That's just me. :)

 

 

Yeah, I think this is key. The problem is both quantity and quality. If the deep stuff was given the same amount of (non-)screentime it is now but was dealt with in a much more honest way, it would feel 500% more satisfying.

 

I agree with this 100%. The show suffers from many, many things. My main issue is that the writers like to jump from point A to point C without point B in almost every area. So yes, quantity and quality.

 

 

 no amount of focus on the regulars is going to salvage the writing.

I don't know about that. 3A was a marginal improvement over 2B because it shifted focus back to the mains.

Edited November 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know about that. 3A was a marginal improvement over 2B because it shifted focus back to the mains.

 

I agree that 3A was better than 2B, I think mostly because the writing for Regina was less schizophrenic and led to less of me wanting to throw my shoes at the TV in frustration (well, up until "no regrets," anyway). But even 3A had its serious issues in terms of neglecting the story and the consequences of the plot. I mean, yeah,we were hitting beats with the Charmings I'd been anticipating since the curse broke, but the beats were treated as check boxes, all, okay, conversation done, next! And, in some cases, those beats ended up throwing great big monkey wrenches into the relationship that were then never dealt with (see: Snow's confession in the Echo Cave).

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe something pretentious with violins?  I quite like the violin.

I vote for cello. It can sound sexy or ominous and isn't quite as associated with maudlin emotional manipulation.

 

I don't think they've really avoided all the stuff that matters. They don't spend as much time on it as people would like but the real problem is that they deal with it dishonestly.

I think that's the real problem. No one but Regina is allowed to have real, honest emotional reactions to events or to other people, and even Regina has serious development stuff skipped over so she can get to all the rewards, so no one wins. No one but Regina is allowed to be sad or angry about things that happen to them, especially if they were caused by Regina. But Regina doesn't get to have any honest development of her redemption arc that goes through the stages required to make it at all believable, like her actually acknowledging that she was ever wrong or showing a shred of empathy. And she doesn't get to have any development of her relationship but instead jumps straight to a love that's apparently so strong after two dates that losing it is considered life ruining. Instead of actually developing a relationship, they just scattered pixie dust and considered it done. So when none of the characters is allowed to have realistic emotions or a realistic growth arc, they just become cardboard cutouts being shoved around in the service of the plot, which makes the plot less interesting. If they were willing to do the hard, honest work with the characters, they could easily fill an entire season with each arc in a way that moves the story along instead of two episodes of introducing the villain, seven episodes of running around in circles, two episodes of resolving the arc, then on to the next arc as though nothing actually happened or changed.

 

I think that's one reason this season is kind of working, that it does flow more out of last season's events, at least with the characters. It's not as though nothing ever happened. Snow is still reacting to nearly losing a second child and dealing with the fallout of having cast the curse, Emma and Hook are working on a relationship that's been developing for a while, Rumple has the dagger thing going on that affects his relationship with Belle, and as much as I hate the awful Outlaw Queen triangle, it was set up last season. It's not like 3A, whose only relationship to prior events was the season finale cliffhanger that sent them to Neverland and was otherwise totally disconnected, or 3B, where they instantly undid all the drastic changes at the end of 3A.

 

In the wishes thread, there's been some wishing for a villain without a sad backstory. I think every villain is likely to have some rationale for doing evil and seeing themselves as deserving of what they got, but do we really need to see it? Why not see the things in the heroes' backstories that make dealing with this particular villain difficult for them or that help them deal with this villain? While the villain may have a story or an excuse, the show also doesn't have to agree with it. That's the weird thing this show does, is agree with the villain's tales of woe without anyone calling them out on it. No one gets to point out that other people have suffered worse without taking such drastic measures (and that goes back to the lack of emotional honesty). Really, you could write an essay on the Mary Sue that Ate the Show about this.

[Camera One]

I think that's the real problem. No one but Regina is allowed to have real, honest emotional reactions to events or to other people, and even Regina has serious development stuff skipped over so she can get to all the rewards, so no one wins. No one but Regina is allowed to be sad or angry about things that happen to them, especially if they were caused by Regina. But Regina doesn't get to have any honest development of her redemption arc that goes through the stages required to make it at all believable, like her actually acknowledging that she was ever wrong or showing a shred of empathy. And she doesn't get to have any development of her relationship but instead jumps straight to a love that's apparently so strong after two dates that losing it is considered life ruining. 

 

The fact that Regina is their favorite character AND they spend undue amounts of screentime on her, and even her character development shows no logical development or depth, is unearned, and jumps from one extreme to another, really underestimates my trust in how well the writers can plot out a storyline while hitting the necessary character beats.  2B showed that even Regina could become a cardboard cut-out prop when they made her Cora's henchwoman.  The Regina-heavy 3B is the key example of how poorly they write for Regina despite throwing so much screentime at her.  Then there is Season 4.  The Regina-wanting-to-kill-Marion in 4-1 was a total fake-out and a round-about waste of an episode, since she hasn't gained any self-awareness, or even shown guilt that her first impulse was to murder Marion in cold blood, plus they saddled her with what I presume to be a season-long or half-season-long arc about forcing the author of the Book to give her a happy ending as if she has no responsibility in the matter.  She went from that extreme in 4-1, to sulking in 4-2, 4-3, 4-4, 4-5, once again with absolutely no self-reflection.  Then in 4-6, she tells Robin that he should find a way to fall in love with Marion again, which should be a huge step but how did she get there?  Who the hell knows.

 

In the wishes thread, there's been some wishing for a villain without a sad backstory. I think every villain is likely to have some rationale for doing evil and seeing themselves as deserving of what they got, but do we really need to see it? Why not see the things in the heroes' backstories that make dealing with this particular villain difficult for them or that help them deal with this villain? While the villain may have a story or an excuse, the show also doesn't have to agree with it. That's the weird thing this show does, is agree with the villain's tales of woe without anyone calling them out on it. No one gets to point out that other people have suffered worse without taking such drastic measures (and that goes back to the lack of emotional honesty).

 

It's all in how they frame the flashbacks.  The Charming one in 4-2 was more about Anna than Charming, for example.  That could be the Frozen effect since the main characters are serving the guests.  But at the same time, even when they minimize the guest character's role; for example, Rapunzel for Charming, that flashback was more about The Plot and Zelena's quest to get Charming's courage than about Charming and his fears.  Which ended up shafting both Rapunzel and Charming.   

Edited November 8, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

One other thing that I think has been a problem is the fact that this is a very serialized show that's written and paced like it was an episodic show. If you just tuned in to an episode at random, you'd have no idea what was going on and would have almost no resolution or payoff (after season one, in which there was a kind of "case of the week" format, so there was some resolution in each episode). You need to have watched at least the beginning of an arc to know what's happening, and nothing gets paid off until the end of the arc. But at the same time, the pacing is so rushed that each individual element of the arc has to be encapsulated into a single episode rather than spreading them over multiple episodes.

 

Like last season, with David's anxiety about being a father. It was introduced, dealt with and forgotten in one episode, merely as setup for Zelena getting his courage. You'd think that facing fatherhood under those circumstances after having already lost a child would have been an ongoing issue that wasn't so easily resolved. That character arc should have spanned the entire half season.

 

Or this season, the deal with Hook's hand. There's been no payoff yet, so what was the rush? If it was going to take at least two (or more, we'll see) episodes before Rumple started calling in favors, why did they have to deal with all of that in a single episode? In one episode, Hook abruptly decided he wanted his hand back, decided it was cursed after two minor incidents, then wanted his hook back, then found himself bound to Rumple by blackmail. We'd had no buildup to him wanting the hand, no reason to see why it was important enough to him to make a deal with Rumple in the first place. The things that happened with the "cursed" hand were extremely minor, so it looked like he was getting and losing his hand on a whim. If they weren't going to bring back that plot for a while, why not string it over multiple episodes -- show the hook being a liability as his relationship with Emma deepens, then spend some time with him having the hand and build it to the point where we actually buy his desperation.

[Camera One]

Like last season, with David's anxiety about being a father. It was introduced, dealt with and forgotten in one episode, merely as setup for Zelena getting his courage.

 

I would even argue that David's anxiety about being a father was actually forgotten before the episode was even over.  I know the writers value CS higher than Emma and her parents, but would it have killed them to give one of Emma/Hook's scenes to Emma/David, so she could reassure him that she thinks he will be a great father?  Plus the scenes with Snow and Charming totally sucked that episode.  Because they needed to have more scenes with Zelena making Snow look like an idiot.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I kind of like how they're having a revolving cast of characters get the mirror treatment this season. Regina got it in the premiere when she saw her former self order Marian's death, Hook in "The Apprentice",  Belle got it in "Family Business" and Emma got it in "The Snow Queen". They were all shown the truth about themselves, but how they were affected depended on whether they really internalized it. Regina cast the blame on the book (no internalization or self-awareness), Belle took only parts of it and chose to ignore that which she couldn't handle, Emma completely agreed with everything she was told and flipped and Hook desperately clung to the idea that his hand was causing his troubles and immediately went to remove it. When the truth is about your past, it may not represent who you are today, but everything about who you were informs your present and all of the characters reactions made sense. Hook & Emma internalized the most because they are both very self aware and consciously work hard to project a certain image in addition to complete self-loathing (Hook) and low self esteem (Emma). Belle must spend half her time justifying to herself being with Rumpel when she's a "hero" (he has a good heart can only take you so far), so it only makes sense that she ignored the parts telling her that her husband is lying to her yet again. And Regina constantly denies responsibility for anything, so no shock at her utter lack of self-awareness.

 

Now I want Snow White to stand in front of that mirror and be told all kinds of things about herself. The list of issues she's got can go on and on and on. Let's start with her ridiculous coddling of Regina and self blame for everything and go from there. I don't actually expect that she would learn anything, but I so desperately want this show to acknowledge all of the crap they've skipped over for the last few years and this mirror treatment seems to be the only way they'll do that.

[Camera One]

I can't believe 4A is almost over!  How many times can they have Regina and Henry play slight variations of the exact same scene?  What a waste of time and the actors.  I don't remember them doing this so blatantly in other half-seasons thus far.

[Serena]

I'm just laughing myself silly about the fact that after the "Big Swan Queen Episode", they've made a point NOT to have Emma and Regina even share scenes in any of the following ones. Just, what is that even about? Not that I want SQ scenes, but after you decide to build an entire episode about how Emma totes wants to be BFFs, why would you drop it? And if you don't want to write Regina and Emma as BFFs, why would you write 405?

[InsertWordHere]

I'm just laughing myself silly about the fact that after the "Big Swan Queen Episode", they've made a point NOT to have Emma and Regina even share scenes in any of the following ones. Just, what is that even about? Not that I want SQ scenes, but after you decide to build an entire episode about how Emma totes wants to be BFFs, why would you drop it? And if you don't want to write Regina and Emma as BFFs, why would you write 405?

They did share a small scene where they talked about Robin Hood on the way to DQ's trailer, but mostly I think 4.5 existed just to establish that they were on friendly terms again.

[Curio]

From another thread:

I actually think that the show has a really prudish attitude toward sexuality in general. In part I say this because even the male villains do get more revealing clothes as well, though certainly not to the extent of the ladies--Hook's shirt was so low-cut he might as well not have had one on for large portions of S2 and S3, and James in the 'Tiny' flashback had a super low-cut shirt as well--but also because more often on this show, a certain level of sexual appetite tends to be given to the villains and ONLY the villains. We have Regina in S1, who was easily the most sexual (and rape-y) character on canvas that season; we have Hook, whose behavior--while I understand others disagree--I personally found to have undertones of sexual violence and predatoriness in S2 (and let's not forget that Past!Hook in 3x21/22 was distracted by, you guessed it, the offer of a one night stand); even the signal that Prince James was "BAD!" in 'Tiny' was signaled by the fact that he was having casual sex with Jack. Contrast that with the canon couples: Snowing have had one (extremely tame) scene in bed in 3+ seasons; we never saw Neal and Emma do more than kiss; did Emma and Walsh even kiss?; OQ is supposed to be all "hot animal attraction" and all we've seen them do is kiss; we've seen Belle wake up in bed (alone) twice, but Rumbelle have only ever kissed on screen. On the flip side, since Snowing has had two babies we know they're getting busy, and ditto for Aurora and Cinderella and their princes, but still.
 
tl;dr: The "good guy" relationships on this show are all pretty chaste, while the "bad guy" relationships tend to be more sexualized; I find that the show, perhaps unintentionally, does often project a "sex is bad!" vibe, which I find disappointing/a little unhealthy.

Sorry, I had to bold that one part just for the irony of it. But I definitely agree, whenever sex is presented on the show, it tends to be either: "Ooooh, you're sleeping with a married man! Let's gossip about it." (see: Snow in Season 1 and Regina's crypt sex) or "You slept with another person?! How dare you!" (see: Dr. Whale and Regina both in Season 1) or "Tee hee, we almost got caught! That was embarassing!" (see: Snow/Charming in Season 2). None of those are exactly healthy perceptions of sex. (Okay, the last one is a bit more acceptable.) But why can't we just get a couple more scenes where the two characters genuinely want to experience a physical closeness and intimacy together that goes past first base? I know this is a Disney/family show and America in general has this backwards idea that violence is cool and sex is icky, but actually showing a loving relationship between two people who have a healthy sex life is a good way to show that that kind of behavior is completely normal. I'm not saying we need to see the graphic details or anything, but it would be nice if this show (which is supposedly all about happy endings) balanced its amount of violence with love. 

 

I think Emma and Killian could possibly break this chaste trend, but I'm not holding my breath or anything. (I don't count the recent Regina/Robin hook up, sorry.) They've at least set it up so that if they ever get to that point in their relationship, it wouldn't be out of character for Hook to crack a few jokes about how he's "sore from last night" or bring back some Captain Innuendo while he's flirting with Emma. Heck, even a scene of Snow cuddling with Charming in bed as they read a book or something before they go to bed would suffice.

 

But I guess this show is rather tame when it comes to its violence, too. We hardly ever see blood or gore, and people's deaths are often ambiguous - like when they hit the ground and poof into smoke. I think the most violent deaths on this show might be when someone crushes a heart.

[Mathius]

I think the most violent deaths on this show might be when someone crushes a heart.

No, Greg and Blue's deaths by shadow ripping were even worse. I remember in the "Wicked is Coming" special where some cast members even said they'd rather have their hearts crushed than their shadows ripped out since it looked so damn painful.

[kili]

I think the most violent deaths on this show might be when someone crushes a heart.

 

James was killed when a massive pike exited his heart and one more shove.

[ShadowFacts]

Blood on Rumple's teeth after he killed the servant girl and Snow about to be burned alive also come to mind. I do agree that sex is treated on a fairly shallow level, even juvenile. I mean, Snow trying to get details from Regina while her daughter is in crisis, high school.

[Curio]

Okay, so those examples of violence prove my previous point even more. If they can get away with showing those violent acts, then they should also be able to show the equivalent on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to positive loving/sexual relationships.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I remember the pilot.  Charming running with a baby in his arms while cutting down black knights before he was cut down.  I never really thought it was super violent but most of the stuff has been incredibly tame in comparison and even tamer.  I wonder if it's not a network dictate since it's about fairytales and it's Disney and an 8pm slot.  I think the most skin we saw was when Emma spilled coffee all over herself and had to change her shirt, when she meets Ashley.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Okay, so those examples of violence prove my previous point even more. If they can get away with showing those violent acts, then they should also be able to show the equivalent on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to positive loving/sexual relationships.

Edited by Curio, Today. 9:00 am.

 

I agree.  I suppose the violence is mild to a lot of people, I have a low threshold, though, so it stands out more to me.  My guess about the lack of positive portrayal of sexuality is the writers may view it as boring.  They've not hesitated to show Regina's sexcapades with Robin and Graham, and that salacious stuff passed Disney and network muster. 

[KingOfHearts]

Since the 4A arc is coming to a close soon, here are my thoughts on it so far.

 

The Frozen story has done a phenomenal job of bringing the show quality back up. It's by far the best part of it all, and the characters have grown on me quite quickly. Ingrid is the best Big Bad we've had since Cora, and both Anna and Elsa have done excellent acting jobs. Kristoff is very funny and I enjoy him as well. If it were my decision, all the Arendelle characters would stay. Their dynamics with the main cast, mostly Emma, have a lot to offer.

 

The rest of the show, though... it's no better if not worse than 3B. Outlaw Queen brings the show down a whole level, Rumpbelle is boring and painful to watch, and Snowing is stuck with C plots. Captain Swan is passable, but I'm not a huge shipper so it doesn't tremendously excite me. Operation Mongoose has been a joke so far, with nothing accomplished. As well as Rumple and Hook play off each other as rivals, watching Hook being stupid gets old fast. The only intriguing storyline outside of Frozen is with the hat, and I've got to say that I can't wait for it to unfold. Most other action in Storybrooke though is tedious.

 

As far as the overall plot goes, the Snow Queen totally rules it. She has seriously dominated the entire show, and I love it. The plot can be a bit slow sometimes like in 3A, but the mystery the show was lacking prior has largely been brought back through new blood. Everything Frozen touches turns to gold, but what it doesn't is badly needing more oomph. Some of the episodes feel as though they were written as they came with hardly any planning at all. A few of them, however, like Rocky Road, can definitely join my favorite list.

 

4A rocks in some areas and greatly falls short in others. I wouldn't count it as one of the best arcs, but it's a major improvement over S3 for the most part.

Edited November 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I honestly do not want the Frozen gang to go back to Arendelle. I want to keep them in Storybrooke forever and ever.

[Jean]

I want the Frozen people plus Ingrid to leave and land on a spin-off not run by A&E or any of their minions or cult followers. Surely they can find someone in the depths of Disney or ABC. And they can also take a select few of the Once people. Shall we say the ones that have the closest ties to Arendelle people, Emma, Rumple and Charming? Hook and Will can tag along.