S07.E02: Don't Be Afraid of the Dark

[Hazel55]

On 9/14/2017 at 7:22 AM, darkestboy said:

I'm starting to lose my patience with Ally as well. I get that she's afraid and that her paranoia is justified but at the same time, it already feels like the writers are milking this a bit much though.

Pedro being shot in the end was a bit obvious though. 

I can't help but feel that this episodes juxtaposition of Ally and Pedro was intentional here on Murphy's part. A wealthy, well educated, sheltered white woman, ridden with anxieties whilst apparently unaware of her privilege, spends the entire episode freaking out about the "political situation," only to emerge unscathed at the end. Meanwhile, a man of color, to whom the political climate is, in reality, much scarier for, mostly endures his lot uncomplaining... only to be shot for no reason in the end. 

Society is much kinder to the wealthy, powerful, and well connected. Ally struggles with "first world problems," while Pedro gets shot for no reason. (And though Pedro was obviously not shot on account of his race, the shooting of an unarmed man of color due to a "misunderstanding" is too obvious an injustice in our current political climate to be passed over as a throw away incident.)

Though of course Ally's seeing homicidal clowns everywhere, having a possibly evil babysitter, and running into the corpse of her employee makes this comparison deeply flawed, I still can't help but think Murphy was making an intentional point here. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Hazel55

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

A wealthy, well educated, sheltered white woman, ridden with anxieties whilst apparently unaware of her privilege, spends the entire episode freaking out about the "political situation," only to emerge unscathed at the end. Meanwhile, a man of color, to whom the political climate is, in reality, much scarier for, mostly endures his lot uncomplaining... only to be shot for no reason in the end. 

Honestly I thought this was totally intentional and while I feel the political right are getting a skewering here, so is the left. Ally is a pretty classic example of someone with no real idea that she's living a life of sheer privilege. I mean, they have a break in so she installs a new security system including barred windows and doors? You want to know how much that costs? And how much more it costs to have it done quickly?

[Florinaldo]

Quote

Just my opinion, of course, but I think it's a bit early to assume these are all plot holes; a deliberate and widespread (if implausible in real life) game being run on Allie or even an all-encompassing hive mind going on here could, in the realm of fiction, be the reason for all of those things.

I did consider the possibiliy that the writers might be going for the old cliché of an all-knowing and all-powerful individual or group with the ability to manipulate all people and all events in Ally's life to undermine her mental stability. But I would wish that the show would go for something less outdated than the concept of a demiurge-like villain that was already creaky in the days of Sax Rohmer. Of course, this is the show that in an already cliché-laden season like Asylum added the hoary plot device of alien abductions, so my hope may be misplaced.

At this point, I think viewers would be justified in expecting more than a rehash of Ally's paranoia and teary near-hysterics from the first episode with jut a little new material to fill in. Unless they intend to explain everything through the explanation you propose, a rather thin resolution that the Twilight Zone would have resolved in a single 1-hour episode or less.

Plot contrivances (a more polite term perhaps than "holes") are to be expected, but there a limit to the allowance that I am willing to make over the long run. I am quite willing to suspend disbelief, but authors should not abuse that contract with their audience.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Florinaldo

[DangerousMinds]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:29 PM, peridot said:

I thought that part really happened?  I think the clowns & Winter are gaslighting Ozymandias (love the name) and Ally.  Somehow, the clown came through Ozy's bathroom to stalk Ally.

Kai gives me the creeps.  Of course he would arrange to have the councilman killed and run for his office. 

The new neighbors are creepy too, I'm surprised Ally would reach out to them to get a weapon.  Poor Pedro!

I really hope every episode won't have a Ally meltdown.  I'm surprised her wife stayed with her so long.

Would the wife leave her if she was suffering from cancer? mental illnesses is just as valid and serious.

On 9/13/2017 at 0:23 AM, ZoloftBlob said:

I'm certainly not seeing why Ivy married Ally. Ally is pretty much terrified of everything.

It's mental illness. I'm sure she wasn't this ill when they met.

On 9/15/2017 at 0:40 PM, BlancheDevoreaux said:

That movie is straight up terrifying.  Like you said, the idea of someone being in your home and you not know about it is a very creepy idea.  Then, at the end, when Liv Tyler's character asks them why they are doing what they are doing and they respond, "Because you were home." Oh. My. Gosh.  That movie ensures I will never ever answer my door in the middle of the night.

Yes, one of the few movies that has truly terrified me in the past few years!

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

Would the wife leave her if she was suffering from cancer? mental illnesses is just as valid and serious.

I'm a little yes and no on that. I do see your point - we definitely do look down on spouses who leave partners who are physically ill and I do agree that mental illness can be as serious. 

On the other hand, mental illness can be much more dangerous to the non sick members of the family. I mean, I'm not unsympathetic to how Ally is probably being pushed... but she did kill a man and she has been going to the door with a knife and she does appear to be hallucinating. While I am not surprised Ivy hasn't left Ally yet... Ivy has more than just herself to consider when she decides what to do.  She is currently living with someone who is mentally ill and hasn't been compliant with taking medication for the mental illness, and there's a child living in the house with the mentally ill person who hallucinates and who shot someone in a paranoid break. If Ally isn't arrested (and she kinda should be, and probably should be considered a danger to others but I totally bet she's barely looked at by police) Ivy really needs to consider how safe the ten year old is with Ally. And that consideration makes me have no issue if Ivy makes the call to leave Ally and take Ozy with her. With a child in the mix, the big issue is the child's safety. 

[Ceindreadh]

Question. Were the new neighbours the same people on the news bulletin who shot the video of Kai being beaten up?

Edited September 16, 2017 by Ceindreadh

[ZoloftBlob]

I thought so - the woman was wearing a poncho and shawl, I thought. 

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

It's mental illness. I'm sure she wasn't this ill when they met.

In the first episode, didn't she say during her session with her thrapist that she was already ill in college, but that she made the effort to get better because of Ivy. Which would imply that her wife was aware of what her history had been previous to their meeting.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Florinaldo

[GoneGirl]

On 9/13/2017 at 3:52 PM, ShadowHunter said:

Ally and Ivy really should let Winter go and find someone else. 

I feel Winter is just as bad as Kai. 

She may be worse. Who knows at this point. I do know that that the pinky thing that her and Kai do seems to put her into like a brainwashed state. I have so many freaking questions!!! Like what IS their relationship? ARE they siblings or not. Is Kai related to Ally? Ivy? Oz?

[Hazel55]

14 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

Honestly I thought this was totally intentional and while I feel the political right are getting a skewering here, so is the left. 

Agreed 100 percent. In fact, in my original commentary on Ally's characterization, I was going to complain that in this episode, she frequently struck me as less a character in her own right than a vicious satirization of a stereotypical, out of touch liberal. However, I scrapped that comment, feeling apprehensive about offending anyone by making an "overtly political" comment. 

At any rate, I agree that an equal amount of scrutiny is being directed at both liberal and conservative characters this season. Which is why I'm baffled by the criticism (which I've read numerous times on the internet) that this season is some sort of attack on conservatives-- both parties are being deconstructed and thouroughly satirized by Murphy, and the results are not flattering for anyone. 

9 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Question. Were the new neighbours the same people on the news bulletin who shot the video of Kai being beaten up?

Yup. That was them, all right. 

 

9 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

In the first episode, didn't she say during her session with her thrapist that she was already ill in college, but that she made the effort to get better because of Ivy. 

From what I remember, its even more extreme than that. 

In episode one, Ally tells the therapist that she first "lost it" completely after 9/11, but with the help of her new girlfriend, Ivy (whom she had apparently just met), she was able to recover. In short, she told the therapist that around the time her and Ivy began dating, Ally was in the midst of her greatest mental breakdown to date, but that Ivy helped her get through it. 

So not only did Ivy begin the relationship knowing full well about Ally's potential for mental illness, she has (presumably) seen her in far worse states than she is currently in.This could either hint at an unhealthy codependency underlying the relationship, or serve as hint number 1000 Ivy is clearly Up to Something and not to be trusted.

[ZoloftBlob]

Quote

So not only did Ivy begin the relationship knowing full well about Ally's potential for mental illness, she has (presumably) seen her in far worse states than she is currently in.This could either hint at an unhealthy codependency underlying the relationship, or serve as hint number 1000 Ivy is clearly Up to Something and not to be trusted.

So here's my problem. For Ivy to be in the cult/gaslighting Ally since 9/11 or at a bare minimum at least eleven years, since Ozy is ten, then whatever the cult really is, it can't be whatever Kai and Winter are developing because they both would have been relatively young children then. Which means there could be more than one cult plot but...

I'm beginning to have concerns. We have a woman with a child with past issues, and creepy neighbors who seem overly friendly and are in a relationship that isn't what it appears. The woman may be getting gaslit by significant others for a lengthy amount. There's a nanny who has an agenda, who the woman trusts...

I'm not describing the current American Horror Story, I am describing the tv show The Following. The mom and son had a nanny who they loved and trusted who was really a member of the cult the woman's serial killer husband set up. There was a married couple - supposedly gay but actually members of the cult pretending to be a pleasant gay couple to gain the woman's trust. I mean sure, Kevin Bacon, graphically violent deaths, and cult members killing themselves on order hasn't happened yet but... I have a good feeling at least two of these will happen.

[queenanne]

On 9/15/2017 at 8:58 AM, SpaghettiTuesdays said:

I'm getting serious vibes from "The Strangers" or whatever that home invasion movie was called. Every time the clowns show up, I get that feeling. The scariest thing to me is having someone in my house and I don't know about it. Seriously creeped out by that.

I also think the Not-Changs remind me of Count Olaf's troupe in "A Series of Unfortunate Events". They have kooky personalities and have this weird way they speak where it's like each of them is half of one brain (not intelligence-wise, more like finishing each others' sentences and whatnot). 

I had to laugh when the Ozy asked if he was asleep or awake and the clown turned and said, "you're asleep", then carried on doing murderous clown stuff. Someone on another forum said it sounded like Kai but I thought it sounded like the psychiatrist? Any thoughts on that?

I immediately thought the Ozy-clown had the physical bearing and carriage of Evan Peters, so I tend to agree with the person who said it was Kai.  Which is interesting either way, because if fake, why would Ozy imagine someone who is like no one he's ever met before, yet who is simultaneously someone real?  I say that having also thought that the clown dressed in white in the last episode at the restaurant when Ally freaked out during the tasting, totally looked like Ivy around the eyes, which I think simultaneously would be impossible because Ivy showed up so quickly looking completely normal.

[Mabinogia]

Is this show meant to be actual horror or a parody? I'm asking because I felt the first three seasons were straight up horror but I just mainlined the first two episodes of this season and it's freaking hilarious! Sarah Paulson is cracking me up with how ridiculously over the top she is about EVERYTHING. The new neighbors are definitely in a parody but then the clowns seem like they are supposed to be genuine horror. 

I've chosen to watch it as a comedy/parody and am finding it works but I don't think I'd be enjoying it at all if I was expecting actual horror. 

As for the politics of it, I'm finding the Liberals coming off far worse in this, which is odd since Hollywood is almost always pro-liberal. But I guess it's mostly just poking fun at extremists and Abby being the main character gets the most poking. Seriously, I'm rooting for anyone who is against her because she is absolutely god-awful. Someone needs to just put her out of her misery. 

[Terrafamilia]

Last week Winter asked Ozzie which one was his mother, the one who bore him. This week Ozzie is gravitating towards Ivy as his mom, in front of Ally even.

I was worried that Ally would burn the house down the way she was waving that candle around next to the drapes.

My anxiety would be triggered by that huge bathroom with the bath smack in the middle and no door. It would be bad enough if it had a door. My fear would be about being on the toilet waaaay across the room from the door and worry about whether I had locked it or not. The bathtub? Far too exposed for comfort (or it would take some time before I did get comfortable with it).

[Mabinogia]

7 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

My anxiety would be triggered by that huge bathroom with the bath smack in the middle and no door.

That bathroom cracks me up. Looking at the outside of the house I can only guess they have a three bedroom and converted one of the bedrooms into a giant bathroom. Odd choice but okay. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE that tub, but why would you put plumbing in the center of a room? It's just logistically bizarre. As for bathroom related anxiety, I'm just glad they don't have a giant window with no blinds/curtains in the bathroom. I just cannot understand not having covering on bathroom windows. My mom's bathroom has a half curtain leaving half the window uncovered and I irrationally feel like I'm being watched when I pee. (Irrational because it's a second floor bathroom.)

 

7 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Last week Winter asked Ozzie which one was his mother, the one who bore him. This week Ozzie is gravitating towards Ivy as his mom, in front of Ally even.

Seeing the three of them in bed Ozzie physically looks more like Ivy so I lean towards her. I do think it was very telling how he did not want Ivy to leave but Allie? Yeah, bye mom. Don't let the door hit ya! Even at his young age he knows she's utterly useless. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mabinogia
Grammar matters.

[Baby Button Eyes]

I find it so weird that the doors of their house have glass in them, especially the bedroom and bathroom doors... I mean, where is the privacy?

[TattleTeeny]

On 9/16/2017 at 4:33 PM, Florinaldo said:

My anxiety would be triggered by that huge bathroom with the bath smack in the middle and no door. It would be bad enough if it had a door. My fear would be about being on the toilet waaaay across the room from the door and worry about whether I had locked it or not. The bathtub? Far too exposed for comfort (or it would take some time before I did get comfortable with it).

I normally hate feeling cramped but, one time, I stayed with some friends who had one of those showers that was basically a small room in and of itself. When I used it, instead of feeling like, wow, how fancy!, I felt uncomfortably exposed and vulnerable!

[Robodude]

Is anyone else COMPLETELY tired of Sarah Paulson crying and screaming throughout each AHS series? 

In Hotel, she had makeup in every episode that made it look like she was constantly crying 24/7.

In Roanoke, she ran and cried and screamed and ran and cried and screamed.

So far, each episode has had her crying and screaming.....with absolutely no end in sight. 

I have a bet with my wife that every single episode this year will have her crying/screaming at length.  Given how much of a loony tune she is playing this year, I feel safe that I will collect.

[ShadowHunter]

23 minutes ago, Robodude said:

Is anyone else COMPLETELY tired of Sarah Paulson crying and screaming throughout each AHS series? 

In Hotel, she had makeup in every episode that made it look like she was constantly crying 24/7.

In Roanoke, she ran and cried and screamed and ran and cried and screamed.

So far, each episode has had her crying and screaming.....with absolutely no end in sight. 

I have a bet with my wife that every single episode this year will have her crying/screaming at length.  Given how much of a loony tune she is playing this year, I feel safe that I will collect.

Plenty of people are so don't feel alone lol. I would like her to play a real evil villain once. 

[LoneHaranguer]

On 9/17/2017 at 0:37 PM, Mabinogia said:

As for the politics of it, I'm finding the Liberals coming off far worse in this, which is odd since Hollywood is almost always pro-liberal. But I guess it's mostly just poking fun at extremists and Abby being the main character gets the most poking.

I think the problem may be that they didn't really portray Abby as the same kind of loony extremist as they did with Kai.

[Miss Bones]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 9:22 AM, Florinaldo said:

There are so many plot holes in this episode that watching it would probably send someone with trypophobia into Paulson-level convulsions.

The police not showing up on their own at the restaurant to investigate a blaring alarm (no one near the restaurant reported it?), the psychiatrist not telling anyone that someone acting like an overwrought loon has a gun in her house; the two mothers not noticing how strange their new nanny is; Ivy having to stay at the restaurant to look after the emergency generator instead to going to support her wife (is she an electrician or engineer and is there no one else who can look after such things?), etc. Of course that last one was just a convenient way to have Ally shoot Pedro; as soon as Ivy told him to go, the two words that came to mind were "red shirt".

None of these things are plot holes.  You may find yourself having to suspend disbelief for the examples that you have listed, but they are not plot holes.

[Florinaldo]

On 17/09/2017 at 0:37 PM, Mabinogia said:

Is this show meant to be actual horror or a parody? I'm asking because I felt the first three seasons were straight up horror but I just mainlined the first two episodes of this season and it's freaking hilarious! Sarah Paulson is cracking me up with how ridiculously over the top she is about EVERYTHING. The new neighbors are definitely in a parody but then the clowns seem like they are supposed to be genuine horror. 

Humour is often present in horror and supernatural fiction and movies. The former can be used to amplify the horror or can also function as a self-defense or release mechanism. Some argue that humour, even a grotesque or outrageous concept, can enhance the story by making it more persuasive and anchored in reality, especially if it is used in a completely deadpan way, with no self-knowing wink to the audience (at least that it how it works for me). I am sure RM and his team are probably well aware of this and are deliberately making use of it, although there may well be a little wink-wink nudge-nudge at work here and there.

 

1 hour ago, Missbones said:

None of these things are plot holes.  You may find yourself having to suspend disbelief for the examples that you have listed, but they are not plot holes.

As I posted upthread, I am quite willing to suspend disbelief, but I have my limits, which are certainly different for others. In this instance, I feel that the examples I listed are convenient shortcuts taken by the writers to expedite the story, hoping the viewer does not pay too much attention to details; the show has in past seasons made such choices for the sake of storytelling expediency. Perhaps the rest of this season will eventually tie it all up so that it retrospectively all seems well thought out with all those dubious components suddenly fitting together, but until then I will be quite comfortable to describe these as either plot holes or contrivances, to use another word some might perhaps find more polite,

[LoneHaranguer]

34 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

As I posted upthread, I am quite willing to suspend disbelief, but I have my limits, which are certainly different for others. In this instance, I feel that the examples I listed are convenient shortcuts taken by the writers to expedite the story, hoping the viewer does not pay too much attention to details;

The characters are being driven by the plot. It's too soon in the season to know if what they're doing is OOC, but with few exceptions that's not something horror writers tend to care much about; RM certainly hasn't in past seasons.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Florinaldo said:

Humour is often present in horror and supernatural fiction and movies.

Oh, I know. And I do see those moments that are meant to kind of relieve or even build the tension. But the overall feel of this season so far feels less horror and more parody. The characters are too over the top to be straight horror, the clowns are more funny than scary. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I love horror and this just isn't ticking my horror box. The first three seasons I was on the edge of my seat. There were episodes where I couldn't sleep afterwards and had to turn on all the lights and listen to happy music and check all my closets.

This season so far I've laughed quite a bit, which is good, I like to laugh. The only scary scene for me so far was Kai at Abby's door because Evan Peters is just really, really good at playing that unhinged kind of scary. I'm sure he's a nice guy who loves puppies and rainbows, but I don't want to be alone in a dark alley with him.

But that's why I asked. I'm just finding this season more funny than scary and wondered if that was a deliberate thing or if my sense of humor is more twisted than I realize. haha

[Florinaldo]

4 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

It's too soon in the season to know if what they're doing is OOC, but with few exceptions that's not something horror writers tend to care much about

I don't think that is the case with good horror authors; or perhaps you were thinking more of horror writing in film and TV rather than in books.

[Miss Bones]

5 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

 Perhaps the rest of this season will eventually tie it all up so that it retrospectively all seems well thought out with all those dubious components suddenly fitting together, but until then I will be quite comfortable to describe these as either plot holes or contrivances, to use another word some might perhaps find more polite,

This is not about etiquette, this is about the fact that one cannot yet say whether or not those examples are plot holes, as we do not yet know the outcome of the plot.  Plot holes reveal themselves later, once the plot has actually unfolded.  Contrivance works, though, and I do understand what you are trying to say.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Plenty of people are so don't feel alone lol. I would like her to play a real evil villain once. 

She (Paulson) kind of played a villain in Hotel though and that was only 2 season ago. It's just this season directly follows Roanoke where she likewise screamed, wailed, cried, and ran through the whole thing. Maybe they should have re-thought this and had Paulson play Ivy instead of Ally. Ally is definitely way too similar to her Roanoke character.

[Captanne]

Just playing devil's advocate here -- I really don't care either way -- but perhaps they are going for continuity in any character that looks like a staple ensemble cast member?  You know how the characters return and/or there are threads you can find throughout all the AHS shows?  Didn't a clairvoyant, a shrink, and a news interviewer (sort of a Barbara Walters character) and a real estate agent reappear?

Perhaps they want every character Paulson plays to be a weepy, needy, dependent pain in the ass?

Macht nichts to me, just an idea.  Because y'all are so, so right.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Captanne

[ZoloftBlob]

This is just me supposing but with the title being Cult and all... Maybe Paulson IS playing the villain. Ally is likely to end up joining the cult and finds it soothing her phobias and allowing herself to become a stronger, calmer person.... Then she starts climbing the ranks, and months later, who is calling the shots and calmly ordering followers to drink the purple Kool-Aid? Ally.

[Captanne]

That reminds me a little of that great, small show The Leftovers when the wife joins a cult and is taken under Maureen Dowd's wing.  

 

And villians do tend to be weak and frightened people in search of authority and validation they don't have within themselves.  Ahem.

[Chaos Theory]

Reading some of the posts I am not sure if I am alone but I think this may turn out to be one of my favorite seasons.  Then again I think the only two seasons I didn't like were Coven and Freak Show.  I don't really care that the police "should have" been called to the restaurant its a horror movie trope (and damn you all for making me use the word "trope" in a sentence.) that the police are never there when they are supposed to be and never believe the people who are telling the truth.   I let those things go to move the plot along.  I know alot of people aren't me.  I have a former friend who got caught up in moments like this and will spend a week obsessing over a detail like that and forget everything else about the episode.  Its kinda the reason he is a former friend.    Anyway I thought the episode for the most part worked and the storyline continues to work.   Ally continues to spiral as Kai continues to rise.   Its gonna be entertaining to watch.  

[Mabinogia]

17 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Reading some of the posts I am not sure if I am alone but I think this may turn out to be one of my favorite seasons.  Then again I think the only two seasons I didn't like were Coven and Freak Show.

Change Coven to Roanoke (or whatever that last one was called) and I'm right there with you. I'm actually enjoying this show again. Nothing will ever top Murder House or Asylum. But so far this one is at least fun. I'm intrigued enough by Kai and Winter to want to know their story. I like that I can't quite tell if Ivy is up to something or not. I kind of hope she is because she deserves to have some fun having been stuck with Abby all these years. God that woman is insufferable. But so far, she's insufferable in a fun way. I don't want the character gone, but I am enjoying seeing her suffer. (man, I sound like a terrible human being. Good thing she's fictional). 

I'm actually optimistic about this season. It's a nice change since for me this show has been on a downward spiral since Coven, which started good but the spiral started there and it crashed and burned. Hotel was at least visually appealing. I didn't watch Freak Show because circus freaks bother are my killer clowns. I just can't. 

[Snookums]

Quote

  The Election is being used as a backdrop and a motivation for certain peoples actions and fears and not an overriding plot point.  

I really hope that this continues: the idea of "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" being taken to crazed/brutally logical extremes. Where any and every single thing could be a terrorist attack, or a plot to drive you mad, or a crazy cult leader trying to take over city council, or just your own brain going "AND FUCK YOU FOR NO REASON."  (Counting--two "fucks" in this one as well. I wonder if Murphy negotiated that?) Having said that, this being AHS it will probably shoot straight off  the rails by ep four and become a pile of unresolved plot points and wasted performances as he backloads the show past breaking point.

 

Right now what I like is, as in all the best mysteries, is that any and everybody could be screwing over any and everybody else. Ivy, Winter, Kai, the clown posse, the neighbors--everybody could have, and some have been shown to do, various "mess with yer head" things, while each could also have an alibi/innocent or understandable reason (setting up their cult, etc.) The main question is: if any/everybody is setting Ally up, what for? While her mental issues certainly make her a perfect target and patsy, what's the plot behind it? What's she being set up for? It's not like she has a lot of money, power or influence, so that's not it. 

If they're setting her up to be an assassin, she's just shown she has good aim. Poor Pedro.

[Snookums]

Quote

I'm not describing the current American Horror Story, I am describing the tv show The Following. 

Oh my LORD, please no. That show's ridiculous level nearly broke me! I had a great time tearing it apart on the boards but I can't take another like that.

That's the problem with conspiracy plots on TV--eventually the conspiracy, in order to maintain its terrorizing status, grows so all encompassing the logic of it falls completely apart. That and trying to cast somebody of sufficient charisma that you'd believe hundreds or thousands of people would literally drop their entire lives to follow/mass murder for him.

[Captanne]

LOL, Snookums, that sounds like what happens to conspiracy theories in Real Life, too!

[Florinaldo]

10 hours ago, Snookums said:

That's the problem with conspiracy plots on TV--eventually the conspiracy, in order to maintain its terrorizing status, grows so all encompassing the logic of it falls completely apart.

Yes, the extent of prior knowledge, coordination and planning necessary on the part of the conspirators often eventually grows beyond all credibility and it becomes ridiculous. But we are not there at this point in the season because there are still many unanswered questions as to the nature of the cult/conspiracy and who exactly is involved.

18 hours ago, Missbones said:

This is not about etiquette, this is about the fact that one cannot yet say whether or not those examples are plot holes, as we do not yet know the outcome of the plot.  Plot holes reveal themselves later, once the plot has actually unfolded.  Contrivance works, though, and I do understand what you are trying to say.

I was not going for etiquette but more for irony or humour; it appears I made it too elusive.

You obviously feel you cannot say these are plot holes, but I certainly have no problem saying so, despite the fact you think it's too early to pass such judgment.

Let's call it "premature adjudication". But I stand by it.

Perhaps something will happens in the show to make me change my mind, but it will need to be more than someone simply decreeing it's too early to voice such an opinion.

17 hours ago, Captanne said:

perhaps they are going for continuity in any character that looks like a staple ensemble cast member?

A bit like the old stock companies some directors kept using from movie to movie or on stage, with the same actor always playing either the lecherous villain, the blue-blooded young hero, the doddering father, etc.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Florinaldo

[Miss Bones]

18 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

Perhaps something will happens in the show to make me change my mind, but it will need to be more than someone simply decreeing it's too early to voice such an opinion.

 

I was not claiming that it is too early for you to voice such an opinion, I was claiming that you are using the term "plot hole" incorrectly, but whatever-- I'm over it.   Agree to disagree.  Have a nice day.

[LoneHaranguer]

19 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

I don't think that is the case with good horror authors; or perhaps you were thinking more of horror writing in film and TV rather than in books.

Exactly. In fairness, authors usually have more time to work the kinks out of stories, while a film or TV writer can use the visuals to try to sweep a viewer past any rough edges without noticing.

[Florinaldo]

25 minutes ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Exactly. In fairness, authors usually have more time to work the kinks out of stories, while a film or TV writer can use the visuals to try to sweep a viewer past any rough edges without noticing.

Yes they may have more time to work out the kinks, plus they have to take into account the fact that a reader can quickly turn to a few pages back and check if something does not fit. In movies and TV, the writer and director may assume that such details will whiz by the viewers and that only the most dedicated will rewind if they are waching on a DVD or other recording. Plus, rewrites may happen right on set or the editing can be used to "adjust" or simplify a storyline, throwing askew a carefully pre-planned plot.

[msrachelj]

On 9/13/2017 at 1:14 AM, DB in CMH said:

Ally is stressing me the fuck out. Does she have to be hysterical all the fucking time? 

 

Cant stick with it.

she really should be in an inpatient psych hospital for a bit so they can figure out what meds and therapy is best for her. she is too crazed to be taking care of a child. she needs help asap.

[Stringey]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:45 PM, 17wheatthins said:

The fact that Meadow, new neighbor lady "was in pharmaceuticals" pinged my radar, along with Harrison, new neighbor man waxing poetic about hives. I am 99.9 percent convinced Ivy is in on it, and is gaslighting Ally. I wish she'd stop, though, because I am officially sick and tired of hearing Sarah Paulson scream, moan, sigh, pant, whine, etc. 

Lol yes the actress is good but when she cries and moans it's cringeworthy.

On 9/13/2017 at 2:52 PM, ShadowHunter said:

Ally and Ivy really should let Winter go and find someone else. 

I feel Winter is just as bad as Kai. 

People have been wondering if Winter is more in control of the cult than they are leading us to believe. Anyway love the character she is creepy and is like a cross between Wednesday Adam's and Mrs. Baylock the evil nanny from the first omen movie. And lmao I had to retype the nanny name five times because spell check kept changing it to Babcock.

On 9/13/2017 at 9:37 PM, Mattipoo said:

Poor Pedro!

I definitely think Ivy, Winter and the creepy neighbors are all gaslighting Ally and trying to convince her to join Kai's cult by making her scared.

The nanny's relationship with Oz also reminds me of the movie "The Omen", which leads me to believe that Oz is somehow important to the cult. Just a wild guess but perhaps he is the devil baby from the "Murder House" season? Maybe the Jessica Lange character died, after which he was adopted by Ally and Ivy? That would certainly tie this season back to "Murder House".

Yes I would love this. Damien kind of forgot who he was between the first omen and second omen and acted like and wanted to be a normal kid. Up until he was reintroduced to who he was by the followers. That is what is creepy followers can be from all paths of life . Imagine if oz is that little kid from the first season and  has repressed and forgotten his very early years after he was adopted. I could so easily believe that Jessica langes character started to get scared and decided she did not want to be responsible for being the parent of the new antichrist. 

On 9/15/2017 at 9:00 AM, TattleTeeny said:

Heh, I get paid to be a "grammar fanatic" (and if I had a buck for every self-proclaimed fellow fanatic I ran across, I wouldn't even need my job. On the other hand, if those claims were true, my job would probably not need me either). Typos happen...and happen...and happen. We'll likely never see a significant piece of copy that is error-free, and most people would notice only a small percentage of the errors that are there. In fact, I think someone on the show did that classic overcorrection of "s/he and I" when "me" would have been correct. (And, of course, nine times out of 10, when one opts to "school" someone else online, one will make numerous errors in one's own post. It's like some kind of editorial Murphy's Law or some shit.)

Same here; I was almost expecting a "go down the street to the Mackenzies' house."  Also:

"American Horror Story: Cult" mixed a little horror movie nostalgia with its clown mayhem on Tuesday's premiere, thanks to an amazing nod to the 1978 classic "Halloween."While the show is set in Michigan, eagle-eyed viewers may have recognized the neighborhood as the same one used as Haddonfield, Illinois in the John Carpenter film.

I'm fascinated by the cluster holes and trypophobia! I feel like I've only become aware of this in the last few years. One day, I was reading about it and thinking not that it was silly or anything, but more that it was unique, for lack of a better word. And then--and then!--while looking at images, holy hell (haha, that was totally an accident!) if I didn't get a belly-pit feeling at some of them! Not all of them, thank the gods (I do not need more quirks, thank you), but oof, some really gave me chills! 

It's really interesting people can psyche themselves out and I can see how someone that does not even have a phobia about patterns of holes could look and feel weird if they think about it long enough. I bet people with that phobia must not be able to look at their face super close. Because of course our face consists of nothing but all the little holes that are our pores. If I think hard enough about the fact humans are made out of many many many tiny tiny cells I get kind of a itchy feeling but thankfully not freaked out. I think it's the patterns of a bunch of little tiny things. It's also when you see things magnified under microscopes and see them so close that make you feel a little weird. I am lucky though I have no phobias about these things but can see how some people get carried away and develop phobias.