S02.E22: Streets of Fire

[marcee]

I truly thought I was the only one who thought that lean-in-for-hug was almost a lean-in-for-kiss. F-tease. Grrr. Good to know I'm not alone - because that means they meant to do that which means they're aware of the chemistry which means maybe...one day...

[BkWurm1]

A

A big piece of contention I do have with this episode is the announcement that whoever Slade takes is the person Oliver loves the most. Why did they have to make this a competition?

 

It's actually "While Oliver has fought all year to be more than the killer he once was, when Slade kidnaps someone close to Oliver’s heart, Oliver is pushed to the edge and realizes sometimes it takes doing the unthinkable to stop the monster."

 

`The close to your heart line comes from the official episode description for Unthinkable but in Street of Fire Blood directly says to Oliver the person Slade is going after the "the person you love most"

[BkWurm1]

Something I meant to comment on earlier.  I (no surprise) loved Felicity's "I believe in you" speech to Oliver but particularly I wanted to commend EBR on how well she portrayed the physical pain she was also dealing with from the crash which made her pushing it aside to inspire Oliver all the more moving. 

[Danny Franks]

Fun episode. But I feel that superpowers are going to kill much of what was good about this show. Too many Mirakuru warriors throwing people around, and the show doesn't have the stunts budget to make it all look good. Hell, they can't even budget for exploding arrows that don't just look like someone lit a big sparkler.

 

Summer Glau looks great in the Ravager costume (because, tight leather, obviously), and I enjoyed her getting to go all Cameron Phillips after Felicity hit her with the van. Heh. They even used a similar music cue to the Terminator theme. Interesting that she's so annoyed by Felicity, though. Presumably Felicity was just a bit too successful at being in the way when Isabel wanted to talk to Oliver.

 

Speaking of Felicity, she's still the perfect counterpoint to all the superhero/vigilante bluster and nonsense. "Isabel attacked Dig so I hit her with the van". Brilliant. I feel that EBR has created such a nuanced character with Felicity that I instinctively buy her as tough, capable, smart, but also as fragile and vulnerable, without any stretching of my credulity. She can be the leading woman, the girl friday and the damsel in distress, in turns, without it hurting her character.

 

Laurel is just the worst. She's worse than Britta! God, I'd have cheered if she completely messed up that shot and ended up firing the arrow into her own face. Oliver barely seems able to tolerate her, the writers have resorted to cheap bait-and-switch tactics like the "nice shot" moment. And then there's Katie Cassidy emulating Joey Tribbiani again when she said "go save the city". Sadly, that moment where she comes face to face with Sara as the Canary felt so much like, 'this is your future, Laurel' to me that that I just despair.

 

The Thea/Malcolm stuff is going to be annoying, I can tell. Evil Daddy starts to win daughter's trust despite all of the reasons in the world that she's not that fucking stupid? No thanks.

 

I liked seeing Sara back, but she needs to get over herself and stop claiming that she's so terrible. Which she'll probably do just before the writers kill her.

 

The idea that Amanda Waller thinks she can kill 600,000 people to get rid of a couple of dozen Mirakuru guys was so absurd I actually laughed out loud. Alien invasion through a dimensional rift, this ain't. Come on, show, do better than this. It's stupid. Mirakuru guys are virtually indestructible? Trying shooting one in the face with a .50 cal rifle, and see how indestructible they are. ARGUS presumably does have some real, military grade weapons, right? 

[Happy to be here]

I like Laurel.  It doesn't mean I ship her with Oliver but I don't outright hate the character,  I thought her storyline this season was fascinating and I liked her this episode.  I thought it was realistic that she would give a "go get um" speech to both Oliver and Sarah two people she has a long and complicated history with; two people who she loves and love her.   Again I am not sure I want her paired off with Oliver (I am so much for Felicity and Oliver) but I do not  get the outright hatred of her character either.

Edited May 8, 2014 by ChaosTheory

[Sakura12]

Laurel's hated because she's a useless character. If you removed her scenes nothing would be missing from the narrative and the show would actually be better. The few episodes she wasn't in, she wasn't missed at all. 

[BkWurm1]

I do not  get the outright hatred of her character.

 

A big part of it is the threat her character poses to other better received characters.  If Laurel reaches the promise her name brings that means Sara dies or leaves or is otherwise sidelined.  it's the feeling that Laurel hasn't earned the honor of being the Black Canary but she might be handed it anyway.  It's also the very inconsistent way she's been written and the way more often than not what she says and does don't match up leaving me confused and usually a bit ticked cause her part comes off as untrue and eye rolling. 

 

Then there is the anger issues and the superior manner KC seems to have toward Diggle and Felicity, acting like they are servants and beneath her.  So far there just hasn't been much to endear the character. 

[GirlWednesday]

Last episode was good for so many parts. But like many here, everytime she who shall not be named (I like that moniker) came on, I was like "oh look it's KC getting a scene she was excited about, KC being a big sister, it's KC trying to be motivational mentor". Completely pulled me out of the scene.

I like Diggle/Isabel fight. It was good pace fight but we knew Digg was going to come up short against the resurrected terminator. Did not expect the van. Makes me wonder what Isabel was going to say? "You brought back Oliver, I hate you" OR "I knew your father and I hate him too". Airbags line was good.

Like everyone else, F/O pep talk was so much better than S/L. Not just better acted but better written. I'm sure someone out there will do a transcript comparison.

Loved Quentin, Thea and captain Jack.

I went into the episode nervous, enjoyed watching it but walked away nervous for Felicity and Sarah.

[Zalyn]

I like Laurel.  It doesn't mean I ship her with Oliver but I don't outright hate the character,  I thought her storyline this season was fascinating and I liked her this episode.  I thought it was realistic that she would give a "go get um" speech to both Oliver and Sarah two people she has a long and complicated history with; two people who she loves and love her.   Again I am not sure I want her paired off with Oliver (I am so much for Felicity and Oliver) but I do not  get the outright hatred of her character either.

I tend to see frustration with how the character of Laurel is written and integrated with the rest of the characters in the show.  I have seen hatred in the past regarding other characters in other shows, and here it feels more like a result of a disconnect between the producers' perception of what the audience wants and how part of the audience sees things differently.  Both in character writing and in actor (lack of) chemistry, it feels like Laurel isn't a good fit in the types of situations she's placed in, but Important People Making The Show seem tone-deaf in their failure to note the lack of enthusiasm.

 

I also wanted to like Laurel's character at the start - confident, active, passionate about helping people, accomplished.  But in trying to shoehorn her into being jealous (of Sara), in a love triangle (with Tommy and Oliver), and sometimes-damsel, sometimes-antagonist, the moments of deep emotional connect she had in this episode - with Oliver, with Sara - don't feel earned. This episode wasn't as bad as last episode ("I know you like I know my own name") since the lines weren't so heavy-handed, but her involvement still feel contrived.

 

I'm still grouchy about her excellent form with the bow; I don't mind her hitting her target, but I really don't like that someone who's never held a bow can draw it that well just from verbal instruction. Kudos to KC for working on it, but it's a case where she should have looked less competent. 

 

(P.S. I'm trying to avoid "boards on boards" and getting too off-topic)

Edited May 8, 2014 by Zalyn

[Gwen-Stacys]

I too don't understand the outright hatred for Laurel's character. I found her journey from season 1 to now to be the most interesting. It made sense that she gave the pep-talk to Sarah and Oliver since both, in a way, have wronged her. But even so SHE sees how much they've changed and how much good they have/will do. Didn't enjoy Felicity giving a speech almost as identical to the one that she gave last episode. I wish Diggle had said it. Between his two side kicks, Ollie is more open with Diggle so to be it would have made sense for him to give the "you're a hero and I believe in you" speech.

 

All in all, I loved this episode. From Team Arrow, to Team Lance, to Thea and Merlin. Is it next Wednesday yet?!

[Danny Franks]

Between his two side kicks, Ollie is more open with Diggle so to be it would have made sense for him to give the "you're a hero and I believe in you" speech.

 

 

I disagree. There are different ways of being open, and while Oliver has been more verbally open with Diggle, regarding sharing his past, I think he's always been more emotionally receptive to Felicity. He listens to her, and often his moods change as a result of listening to her. He lets her see him with his guard down, in a way few other people do. Even in this last episode, he was curt and dismissive of Diggle's attempts to talk him round, and sent him off to drag Roy to the clocktower. But he went into far more detail with Felicity regarding his failings, and then genuinely listened to her tell him it was a bunch of crap, and he needed to get his act together.

 

As for Laurel, until recently was happy to react to her with utter apathy. Until the writers started forcing me to pay attention to her. And as soon as I do, I want her gone. She's got the sort of anti-presence that just crushes any scene she appears in. But that's been discussed further in the Laurel thread.

[quarks]

Between his two side kicks, Ollie is more open with Diggle so to be it would have made sense for him to give the "you're a hero and I believe in you" speech.

 

 

On the one hand, I'm up for anything that gives Diggle more to do. Or an excuse to take off his shirt. Pander to me, showwriters, pander :)  So as far as that goes, I agree with you if not perhaps for the same reasons. 

 

That said, while I think Oliver was more open with Diggle last season, over the last several episodes Oliver has been more or at least equally open with Felicity. Oliver and Diggle did have their private talk about ghosts back in Three Ghosts, but after that, most of Oliver's confessions/discussions have been made either to both of them (in Blind Spot, and in City of Blood) or to just Felicity (when he was having the conversation about Sara being a killer). So I didn't have a problem with Felicity giving that speech. It also wasn't quite identical to her speech in the previous episode, which was more of "there has to be another way." This was more of a "I believe in you speech," and reminding him about everything that he's accomplished.

 

What we mostly learned from this is that Oliver is still very depressed (in show time his mother was killed right in front of him about a week ago, so that's understandable) and needs a lot of speeches. And hugs. 

[BkWurm1]

It made sense that she gave the pep-talk to Sarah and Oliver since both, in a way, have wronged her. But even so SHE sees how much they've changed and how much good they have/will do

 

Taking to the Laurel thread. 

[GirlWednesday]

Something that I found odd was the scene where Diggle/Felicity meet up with Oliver/Laurel, Diggle asks "you okay?" laurel just assumes Diggle is talking to her.

[BkWurm1]

Goes hand and hand with Laurel not bothering to ask Oliver if HE is ok after they both wake up in the tunnel. 

 

I'm probably being too harsh.  It makes sense that Laurel not worry about Oliver.  He's the Arrow.  He's a HERO!  She's elevated him to a pedestal.  How could he get hurt?

Edited May 9, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Sakura12]

Something that I found odd was the scene where Diggle/Felicity meet up with Oliver/Laurel, Diggle asks "you okay?" laurel just assumes Diggle is talking to her.

Why would she not think that? Everything is about her. Then she didn't even acknowledge them after that. She only told Oliver to save the city. 

 

Sara acknowledged Team Arrow as whole. She even told them that they made quite a team and she was happy Oliver had them in his life. When Oliver needed help she rallied up the team of Felicity, Diggle and Roy to help her. She never questioned that they couldn't do it. 

[statsgirl]

 

I do not  get the outright hatred of her character either.

I think if the EPS would come right out and say

1) Sara is not going to be killed off so that Laurel can become the BC;

2) Laurel is not going to be Oliver's love interest any more;

3) Laurel will have a place on the show but it will not be as a leader of Team Arrow

4) Laurel will still have story lines but they will not cut into the time of other characters'

 

I think a lot of viewers would let themselves like Laurel more.  Of course, the Lauriver shippers would probably storm the internet.

 

I spent so much time worrying that Laurel is going to take over the show to the detriment of the characters I care about (Felicity, Diggle, Sara, Thea) that it's  hard to look at her objectively  I thought the use of Laurel in this episode was perfect -- she had a bit to do with Oliver but not so much that she looked like a superhero, then she left him in the hands of Diggle and Felicity who had lots of screen and storytime, and went off to do stuff with her family.

 

 

Something that I found odd was the scene where Diggle/Felicity meet up with Oliver/Laurel, Diggle asks "you okay?" laurel just assumes Diggle is talking to her.

LOL  That's Laurel.  There's self-interest, and then there's narcissism.  Although neither is right for a future hero.

 

There are different ways of being open, and while Oliver has been more verbally open with Diggle, regarding sharing his past, I think he's always been more emotionally receptive to Felicity.

I thought guys didn't talk to other guys about stuff like that?  Diggle has given Oliver pep talks before but they've been short and with lots of things left unspoken. This episode needed a big pep talk, so it was left to Felicity.  

 

On the other hand, I'm getting tired of Oliver needing a pep talk every 30 minutes. As Felicity said, fighting back is the way to handle these defeats (paraphrasing).

[BkWurm1]

On the other hand, I'm getting tired of Oliver needing a pep talk every 30 minutes.

 

So true. 

 

I've been thinking about how Blood got the cure from Slade.  It seems out of character that Slade wouldn't have the case under lock and key unless he wanted Blood to take it.  Originally I even thought (once Isabel showed up) that Blood was in on it.  After he was ended I dismissed that thought but what if Slade set him up?

 

Maybe it wasn't such a coincidence that Slade and Blood were having their disagreement as a minion showed up with the briefcase.  Again, this is Slade who is seemingly five steps ahead of everything.  Could he have planted a tracking device to find out where Team Arrow was hiding out?  He had his phone taps but he wouldn't be able to track them unless they stupidly left the GPS on.  (Side note, does it seem to anyone else that Felicity has one phone but multiple phone numbers ring to it?) 

 

So maybe Slade let Blood take the case and turn it over to Team Arrow so he knows where to go to abduct a certain person? 

 

Just a thought.

[Danny Franks]

On the other hand, I'm getting tired of Oliver needing a pep talk every 30 minutes. As Felicity said, fighting back is the way to handle these defeats (paraphrasing).

 

 

I think quarks made a very valid point about this. Oliver is grieving over the death of his mother, and over everything that's happening to the city, and he believes it's all his fault. His confidence must be absolutely shattered, his belief in himself in tatters, because so many of the worst things that could have happened have come to pass.

 

This season, when you come down to it, is the result of mistake after mistake that Oliver has made, over the last five years. All the stuff with Slade on the island, all the stuff with Isabel in the present, the secrets about his mother and his sister, the way he messed up trying to help Roy, his relationship with Sara (and as things stood, he was probably thinking he'd failed again, because she left believing herself a killer).

 

I think he's holding himself together admirably, under the circumstances. But I don't have a problem with him needing people to tell him they still believe in him, because, as I've said before about the character, one of the most intriguing things about Oliver Queen is his clear desire for people to value him and like him.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I disagree. There are different ways of being open, and while Oliver has been more verbally open with Diggle, regarding sharing his past, I think he's always been more emotionally receptive to Felicity. He listens to her, and often his moods change as a result of listening to her. He lets her see him with his guard down, in a way few other people do. 

 

I think if the EPS would come right out and say

1) Sara is not going to be killed off so that Laurel can become the BC;

2) Laurel is not going to be Oliver's love interest any more;

3) Laurel will have a place on the show but it will not be as a leader of Team Arrow

4) Laurel will still have story lines but they will not cut into the time of other characters'

 

On the other hand, I'm getting tired of Oliver needing a pep talk every 30 minutes. As Felicity said, fighting back is the way to handle these defeats (paraphrasing).

It might just be me (and my brothers who I watch this with), but that's all started to come off as pandering to me. And maybe because of other fandoms (e.g. Teen Wolf and TVD), I am very wary of fan pandering and assuming that the loudest/most vocal fans =the majority of the viewership. They don't. Please, for the love of cheesecake, stop with the zoom ins of Ollie touching Felicity! They did that 3 separate times in this episode alone.

 

Not to say I'm majority viewership, but I like Laurel (I ship Ollie with familial happiness before I ship him with some chick. He has too many personal things to work on. Not a fan of Lauliver or Olicity.) and I like her story line this episode and the rest of the season. I agree it was very sped up, but this is a CW show, not network, cable, or premium TV a la Game of Thrones.

 

I think OP asked about the Laurel hate because it is visceral and omni-oppressive. And it's a little...off putting. Especially for a newbie (my last post was my first. Hi everyone! =D ) 

 

Back to this episode, I thought Laurel was more like season 1 Laurel than she has in a while. She was off doing her own thing and worrying about her family while The Arrow crew was taking the scenic route through the city. I liked that. And I loved the way Sara lit up when she felt like she had both Laurel's and her father's approval.

 

Add me to the list of people who doesn't think Thea shot Merlin but someone behind him. As well as the list of people who will be pissed if Sara dies next episode. There were anvils, but idk if it's about her dying or her staying on to be The Canary. I mean, Nyssa Raatko's SL is kind of different from her comic one...but then again, she is more Batman than Green Arrow, so who really knows. 

[Zalyn]

I think OP asked about the Laurel hate because it is visceral and omni-oppressive. And it's a little...off putting. Especially for a newbie (my last post was my first. Hi everyone! =D )

Hi Gwen, welcome to the boards!  I encourage you to go take a look at the Laurel character thread; there are quite a few detailed discussions explaining some of the frustration people have felt with the character.  There were also some statements made by Executive Producers that seemed to not reflect the types of storylines we've seen play out on screen, and those have made some of us anxious about whether everyone working the show is on the same page about where they are taking things. 

 

I'm not sure which OP you're talking about. I responded to the first person I saw asking about the negativity towards Laurel, and I encourage you to read my response to get a feeling for where some of us are coming from. 

[bravelittletoaster]

Ugh, when they dubbed Sara the Canary I felt all secure in the knowledge that she was safe, but now you people have me paranoid again that they're still going to kill her off and hand it to Laurel.  Damn it.  I'm going to have to spoil myself.  Because if Sara bites it I need foreknowledge [and am possibly quitting the show].

[quarks]

Well, to be fair, there's some very loud/vocal Laurel and Laurel/Oliver supporters out there as well. Just perhaps not on this board :)  And speaking for just me, I'd be ok with the Laurel we saw in this episode. We just usually see other Laurels that I'm less ok with. 

 

But sorry if I came across intimidating, and welcome!  I love good arguments, and I'm up for hearing the other side.

 

Regarding "pandering" I see this word used a lot, and I'm wondering if my problem with it (the word) is that I don't always see the same things as pandering as other people do?

 

My definition of a "pandering" moment: a moment that does not advance the plot or give us further information about characters or where the characters are doing something that - in my opinion - isn't necessarily something they would do in that particular moment but was thrown in because "oooh, fans would like to see that." I'll give some "pandering" and "not pandering" examples to see if I can be a little clearer here:

 

1. Clear pandering:  Sara fighting crime in a push up bra in a costume cut to show cleavage (ok, I'm enjoying it, but she's not wearing that part of her costume for practical reasons); camera angles shifted to put Summer Glau's legs center screen (also, the tightness of whatever she was wearing); camera angles shifted to show off Summer Glau's butt (in contrast, the cameras went up for Blood, Slade, Diggle); Oliver carrying Felicity away from the car crash (ok, yes, I enjoyed that too, but realistically - the guy with a bad leg is carrying Felicity, and not the guy who HASN'T been injured? Not to mention that this meant that Diggle, who usually uses guns, and not Oliver the Archery Expert, was using the bow).  The first example is completely unnecessary and just there to show off the actress's cleavage; the second seemed to be thrown in for Felicity/Oliver shippers.

 

While I'm commenting on that last scene, moving someone still unconscious from a head injury like that without bracing her skull? Yes, I know they had to get away from the van, but still.

 

2. Questionable pandering: Laurel being out in the field at all (we discussed this more with the last episode, but basically, Laurel could have been more useful back at the Arrow Cave keeping an eye out on Roy, but the showrunners wanted a Laurel/Oliver moment, so there she was. Having now seen the trailers/pictures for the next episode, I'll go back to "questionable" for this one since it seems the writers wanted to remind us that Laurel cares about Oliver (why? sorry, moving on) before slamming us with the next episode, though I kinda feel that was established in her speech last episode.

 

3. Not pandering: Laurel and Oliver hugging after the wall explosion: they've been set up as huggers before this and it was a traumatic moment for Laurel, so, hug, completely in character and right for the scene.  Also served to remind us that yes, Oliver can be nice even if he's the sort of guy who yells at someone trapped and terrified behind a collapsed wall.  Felicity and Oliver in the clocktower scenes: first, as I noted, Oliver is suffering from severe, severe depression - in show his mother was brutally killed right in front of him about a week ago. A non-traumatic, normal death of a parent will throw most people for a loop, and I'm talking expected death by cancer or something in old age. So yeah, that's necessary.  

 

But the scene is also showing us something very big for Oliver's character development. When he first returned from the island, he really didn't want to be touched by anyone (except Thea, thus the multiple comments on their somewhat inappropriate chemistry in the first several episodes). He wouldn't let people in. Now, he's agreeing to work with the Starling City police department, and he's not only willing to take comfort in Felicity's hug - he's able to reach out and touch her when she needs reassurance.

 

And I'm increasingly convinced that the writers are planning something for Oliver/Felicity. Possibly turning her into the show's Gwen Stacy (gulp); possibly having her be endgame. But they are aware and have acknowledged fan support for this relationship, and if they really didn't want it to happen, they could have done what the showrunners of Revenge keep doing whenever Nolan/Emily gets mentioned - say absolutely, positively, not, never, not happening, they have a sibling relationship!  Or what the showrunners of OUAT do whenever Swan Queen gets mentioned - "NEXT QUESTION?"

 

Since that's not what the showrunners are doing, and since they have taken considerable care to put in a moment like this in all but one episode this season, I don't think these moments are pandering: I think this is part of developing the Oliver/Felicity relationship, and making sure that when/if this happens, fans don't say "Well, THAT came out of nowhere," something that has happened before on this show, not just with romantic relationships, either. Sometimes that's a good thing; sometimes it's heavily criticized. 

 

So not only did this moment help set up whatever's coming next week, to make sure we knew that this is a mutual bond of friendship/whatever, this also helped ensure that if the show ever does set up Oliver/Felicity as a couple, there's been plenty of buildup. I regard this as a good thing. 

 

Bravelittletoaster, I have to assume that the producers are going to be keeping a sharp lid on any further deaths. Yes, the bit about a character dying and a funeral kinda let many people guess about Moira's death, and Blood's death has been signaled for awhile, but if Laurel, Sara, Roy or Quentin is about to bite it, I assume huge secrecy protocols are in place. 

[Sakura12]

I don't think there are any spoilers about it, it's all speculation. My thing is if they still plan on giving Sara's alter ego to Laurel then I'd rather they do it now. I can't watch  another season with Sara only to have her die at the end of that one. Also if they do kill her she better go out like a hero, like being the one to kill Slade or stop a bunch of the Mirikuru soldiers. No dying to save Laurel.  

[ActualSize]

It's actually "While Oliver has fought all year to be more than the killer he once was, when Slade kidnaps someone close to Oliver’s heart, Oliver is pushed to the edge and realizes sometimes it takes doing the unthinkable to stop the monster."

By that wording, it could end up being Diggle.  It could also be Thea, since she is his sister, or Sara or Laurel. But the biggest payoff would be for it to be someone who is close to Oliver's heart but Oliver doesn't know it yet so it's a shock when he realizes it.

 

 

There's also the possibility that little Ollie will show up to be kidnapped - they certainly teased "Oliver has a child he doesn't know about", and Slade seems to Know All. If it is Felicity, I hope she's at least complicit in her own rescue. She's too smart and awesome to be relegated to full-on damsel in distress status.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ActualSize

[bravelittletoaster]

Ugh, yeah I just breezed by there and they know nothing.  Heh.  I've been in other fandoms with insiders that spoil everything so I'm a bit, er, spoiled.  Well, I guess I will just hope for the best, which for me means finding another role for Laurel to play and leaving Sara where she is as the Canary.  

[Danny Franks]

It might just be me (and my brothers who I watch this with), but that's all started to come off as pandering to me. And maybe because of other fandoms (e.g. Teen Wolf and TVD), I am very wary of fan pandering and assuming that the loudest/most vocal fans =the majority of the viewership. They don't. Please, for the love of cheesecake, stop with the zoom ins of Ollie touching Felicity! They did that 3 separate times in this episode alone.

 

 

I think pandering is a term that has become overused in recent years, when it comes to discussing television. And I'm honestly not sure what it actually means, in terms of translating to screen. Is it pandering to have moments between characters that fans like? I don't know. Really, the whole point of making a show is to have people like it. If they don't, then you're cancelled, so wouldn't every single thing the writers do could be considered pandering? It's designed to appeal to the audience, after all.

 

With Oliver and Felicity, I think they've found a pairing that resonates, with chemistry that garnered notice right from Felicity's first appearance. It gathered support due to the dislike people had for Laurel (and I do think the dislike came before Felicity was much of a presence), and took off. Now, if the writers intend to keep throwing in moments like that and never intend to offer up any real development or payoff, then that's definitely pandering of the worse kind (see, Jeff/Annie in Community) because they are playing on the expectations of fans without following through.

 

So I think that if I could define pandering in that way, then I wouldn't want to say the Oliver/Felicity moments are pandering, because it makes too much sense to me, taking everything that has happened on the show into account, that they are on a romantic collision course. It felt natural to me that Felicity would be the one to snap him out of his malaise, just like she did at the beginning of the season. She's become a lot more proactive in encouraging Oliver to go out there and be a hero, in this second season, so who better than to tell him that's what he has to do now?

Edited May 9, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Gwen-Stacys]

Well, to be fair, there's some very loud/vocal Laurel and Laurel/Oliver supporters out there as well. Just perhaps not on this board :)  And speaking for just me, I'd be ok with the Laurel we saw in this episode. We just usually see other Laurels that I'm less ok with. 

 

But sorry if I came across intimidating, and welcome!  I love good arguments, and I'm up for hearing the other side.

 

Regarding "pandering" I see this word used a lot, and I'm wondering if my problem with it (the word) is that I don't always see the same things as pandering as other people do?

 

My definition of a "pandering" moment: a moment that does not advance the plot or give us further information about characters or where the characters are doing something that - in my opinion - isn't necessarily something they would do in that particular moment but was thrown in because "oooh, fans would like to see that." I'll give some "pandering" and "not pandering" examples to see if I can be a little clearer here:

Oh I know! I see them on Tumblr too (and irl. All my brothers watch this show, and few of my friends. Mostly guys....and they're all in the "If Sara dies, I quit this bitch" camp. But they don't mind Laurel.)

 

And thank you for the welcome!! I really appreciate it. Not intimidating at all. I stalked these forums for a bit before I decided to join and I've enjoyed most of your posts that I see. I've never really done the forum...thing. So, newbie in that regard as well. I apologize in advance if I make mistakes!

 

I see pandering as having one character do something that could be done by another and still have the same basic effect because of the thought of it making a certain group of people happy. Kind of like when a white politician goes into a predominately Black/Hispanic/Asian community and harps on the issues they know most interest them while trying to give off the "I'm just one of you" vibe. Basically, pandering for votes. In TVD, the writers all but admitted that they put Damon and Elena together for the Delena fans, not to better/further the story. Or how in HP they gave a number of Ron Weasley's book lines to movie Hermione because the movie audience liked her more than they liked Ron. And so on and so on.

 

So the same as your views, I guess? Because I agreed with most of your examples. The Oliver carrying Felicity was one of mine, as well. It made zero sense character or story wise. My other examples were the zoom ins on the little touches. None of those touches were romantic, IMHO. Oliver touches his sister the same way he touches Felicity. The zoom ins would only be pertinent if Ollie wasn't a the touchy-feely type (and that isn't the case) or if they were symbolic. For example, Smallville episode 9x03 when Lois goes in to punch Clark's arm (a playful "bro-punch" thing she's done to him since she first came on the screen) and Clark grabs her wrist before she could. That was meant to symbolize them moving from a friendship/partnership to a romance/partnership. Am I making sense?

 

As a hetero-female, I'd like there to be more pandering to my love of Summer Glau's hair, thank you very much. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[Zalyn]

It might just be me (and my brothers who I watch this with), but that's all started to come off as pandering to me. And maybe because of other fandoms (e.g. Teen Wolf and TVD), I am very wary of fan pandering and assuming that the loudest/most vocal fans =the majority of the viewership. They don't. Please, for the love of cheesecake, stop with the zoom ins of Ollie touching Felicity! They did that 3 separate times in this episode alone.

Okay, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and argue that showing Oliver touching Felicity is not pandering, period.  It is effective camera work that 1) tells the emotional story that needs to be told, namely, that Oliver has trouble trusting, connecting to, and reaching out to people, and Felicity is one of the people he can do it with, albeit slowly, and 2) that the chemistry between the actors is such that SA actively wants to touch EBR (he has said as much in interviews) as part of adlibbing the characters.  To not include those organic moments is bad show production.

 

I remember in S5 of Angel that Boreanaz and Marsters had such great (antagonistic) chemistry that they went with one camera instead of the normal two-camera setup to read lines.  The camera just zipped back and forth between the two of them because they fed on each other's energy so well and escalated the emotional timbre powerfully in the scene; to use the standard filming would have destroyed that natural energy.

 

Pandering in a show is contriving plot points or situations to put characters together who would have no reason to be together.  For example, one could argue that in Star Trek, the inevitable "mind control" or "loss of control" virus/alien/implant/parasite would get two fan favorites to hook up with no strings attached afterwards. 

 

In fact, writing Laurel into walking out with Team Arrow right after Oliver proclaimed that it's back to "the three of us" (e.g. Oliver, Diggle, Felicity) and not respecting their relationship could be seen as pandering, but feels more like the shoehorning of the EPs in pushing Laurel into situations that make no sense. Why is she there and not at the DA's office?  Why is she running around on the streets in a bright red jacket and heels when there are fights happening? She's out of her element and not able to interact meaningfully in ways that fit her character's strengths. 

 

Back to topic: I had forgotten about Oliver Jr.  Uh oh.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think pandering is a term that has become overused in recent years, when it comes to discussing television. And I'm honestly not sure what it actually means, in terms of translating to screen. Is it pandering to have moments between characters that fans like? I don't know. Really, the whole point of making a show is to have people like it. 

 

Maybe pandering has become overused in recent years, but that's because it's become increasingly easier to pander to the more vocal portion of a viewing audience. Now, I say vocal because out of the 2 mil + (idk if Arrow still avg that many viewers PV, so I'm guestimating), I seriously doubt a majority of them are consistently active in online fandoms. But I'm careful to assume that just because I see majority of those online proclaiming one way means that they speak for the majority of viewers as a whole. Like Sterek in TW. Most viewers don't know what the f*ck a Sterek is, but if you peruse tumblr, you'd assume everyone who watched TW was all for Sterek. 

 

So to answer your question, yes putting two characters together just because a portion of your audience likes them together is pandering as defined. Pandering is the entertainment equivalent to people pleasing. Arrow had pretty good ratings (for a CW show) during it's first season, even when it was Felicity-light. So...

[bravelittletoaster]

I feel like every time someone does the salmon ladder they're pandering, but I like it.  Pander to me, show!!  I want to see pretty people doing amazing things.

[BkWurm1]

I'm a fan of Oliver and Felicity but yeah, I have to agree that there were too many close up shots of Oliver's hand. Maybe they were trying to convey a specific emotion but apart from the hug one, I didn't get it and I'm pretty sure I was their target audience.

I felt the scene with Laurel shooting the arrow with perfect form was blatant pandering since the scene would have made much more sense if both Oliver and Laurel were trapped together and then he shot the arrow. What were they trying to advance with Laurel and the shot of her with the bow? If it turns out to be foreshadowing that she turns into Red Arrow, then no to pandering (but yes to a whole bunch of other issues) but otherwise I don't see what it was doing for her character or the show other than to make a nice screen cap.

In regards to pandering in general, I think giving the people what they want is all about balance. If a scene messes with the story being told it absolutely should not be included. But if it's something like making the choice between having Oliver training with a dummy or shirtless on the Salmon Ladder, give me what I want. If certain characters are well received AND it doesn't mess with the story, why not write them hanging out more together (like Diggle and Felicity - if pandering gave me Bitch With Wi-Fi, I'm all for it, lol) If pandering adds cute little moments that add to the enjoyment of the show, is it really pandering or is it just good writing? Maybe it's a question of sincerity and intent. I don't like to be mislead but I like character moments that hint at the future.

On another topic, I don't think Oliver's love child will show up until next year at sometime. That is going to be a tricky storyline. It could go very badly.

Edited May 9, 2014 by BkWurm1

[KirkB]

I'm not particularly impressed or bothered with Laurel shooting the bow. Compound bows are designed to be easier (not easy, mind you) to use than regular bows, and she was close enough to her target, a big wall of rock. she'd be hard pressed to miss. Hell, she could probably have just thrown the arrow at the wall and accomplished the same feat. What I'm trying to work out is the last time we saw them Oliver and Laurel were standing together, Oliver had his quiver on his back and his bow in his hands since he was the one who fired the arrow that brought down the ceiling in the first place. So how did they manage to get so far apart, and Oliver separated from both his quiver and his bow? Also, it's good to see that Starling City follows the same construction principles as other TV cities. Do you realize how many people might actually be injured by being buried in huge chunks of concrete if they actually weighed anything and couldn't just be pushed off?

[Danny Franks]

So to answer your question, yes putting two characters together just because a portion of your audience likes them together is pandering as defined. Pandering is the entertainment equivalent to people pleasing. Arrow had pretty good ratings (for a CW show) during it's first season, even when it was Felicity-light. So...

 

 

But is it just because a portion of the audience likes them? I don't think so. I think the writers like them, and the actors clearly like them. And their scenes work. They fit well together, whatever the context of their relationship, and EBR brings far more energy to her scenes with SA than any other actress on the show has. Oliver/Felicity have a fun dynamic, in my view, that isn't provided by any other combination of characters. Team Arrow as a whole have a great group dynamic, and I would much rather have more of them than we've had this season.

 

To turn it around, I don't think it's pandering to one portion of the audience, just because another portion doesn't like it.

[BkWurm1]

Sometimes inside fan jokes like setting two heterosexual males in situations that could be taken in interesting ways can be fun. On Stargate SG1 they did a wedding parody that had the two male leads stand up,at the altar waiting by themselves and making the comment that people might get ideas. On Smallville I don't think they tried to make situations but they just kept naturally happening between Clark and Lex. It was hard NOT to see it. I get though that it could get in the way of the rest of the story.

[ArctisTor]

Most viewers don't know what the f*ck a Sterek is, but if you peruse tumblr, you'd assume everyone who watched TW was all for Sterek.

 

The general viewers not in fandom wouldn't know what Sterek is because Sterek doesn't exist in the series.  It's almost completely a fan invention that's run amok.  In canon and looking at the series objectively, those two are barely friends.  Which doesn't really make it an apropos comparison to Olicity since Olicity have an established close relationship, completely unlike canon Sterek.

 

I wouldn't call Olicity "pandering" anymore than any other latter season romantic storyline like Sawyer/Juliet in "Lost" or Joey/Pacey in "Dawson's Creek" that really worked and made sense in their series.  More specifically when it seemed like those characters might be paired off seriously with other characters earlier in the series or were paired off with those other characters and the stories run their course or the stories were shelved (for whatever reason) for the indefinite future.  I wouldn't hold it against those latter season romantic pairing arcs just because they weren't there from the inception or the fans they might have had.  I didn't consider them "pandering".  

 

Oliver/Felicity explored is also hardly inexplicable if we ignore the fans. Felicity hasn't only been a primary member of the main character's core team since halfway through last season, but obviously also one of the few people to know the main character's alter ego for about that long.  Add to the fact the chemistry between the actors, the characters being through dangerous situations together, both of them being conventionally attractive, within the same age bracket and the fact the characters are close companions already?  Not to mention them being that very popular dynamic of complimentary opposites which happens a lot through all forms of media?  Even if there were no fans there, I completely get why they've been explored all throughout this season.

 

I feel like Olicity's pre-existent fandom is throwing people off somewhat or being used as this finger to point blame at something some in fandom, at least I'm presuming, find apparently inexplicable or out of nowhere?  Except as I said above, there are a lot of reasons one can lay out why Oliver/Felicity were an attractive option for the writers that don't factor the fan fervor at all.  Obviously, the free publicity is nice, but if there wasn't meat on that bone in the series' narrative, they wouldn't have gone there.  Clearly they saw something of value there for the series over all and the main character's arc, something they could pull some great stories and episodes out of (and they have done), or they wouldn't have bothered at all.  With the money it costs to make TV series, they don't take major story arc decisions lightly.  You can bet this was deliberated over carefully for it involving the main character so significantly and with another regular that also has an important role in the series.  If it were only about some fans screaming on the internet, that just isn't a sufficient enough reason for writers/EPs to go ahead with anything that would have taken up so much story time, effort and resources to film.

Edited May 9, 2014 by ArctisTor

[statsgirl]

So maybe Slade let Blood take the case and turn it over to Team Arrow so he knows where to go to abduct a certain person?

 

Oooh, I like it. I thought that Slade let Blood take the case as a test of loyalty, but to use it to abduct his target is lovely and sneaky.

 

 

This season, when you come down to it, is the result of mistake after mistake that Oliver has made, over the last five years. All the stuff with Slade on the island, all the stuff with Isabel in the present, the secrets about his mother and his sister, the way he messed up trying to help Roy, his relationship with Sara (and as things stood, he was probably thinking he'd failed again, because she left believing herself a killer).

Good point. Sometimes the show goes so fast, it's hard to connect all the dots.  (That, and that I don't really trust them anymore.)

 

 

 

I would play Lord Pandarus of Phrygia, sir, to bring a Cressida to this Troilus  (Twelfth Night III i)

(Sorry, couldn't help it, it wouldn't leave my brain.)

 

If you're not looking through Olicity glasses, the actual interactions between Oliver and Felicity have been pretty platonic.  He's slept with every other available woman on the show, and the last time she hugged him, when he got back in Three Ghosts, he was talking to Diggle and hugged her back as if his mind was elsewhere.  

 

If, and it's a big if, there is something significant between Oliver and Felicity in terms of Blood's "the one you love the most", it's going to come out of nowhere if it's not set up beforehand. I thought the directing in the clock tower scenes was clunky, but it's not as if you can stop the tape and say "look, see, here he's responding back to her."  She hugged him, and slowly, walls breaking down, he's hand drew close and he hugged her back. Shot of Oliver's face.  At this point, I'm going to assume say it's foreshadowing.

 

Pandering is usually taken to mean pimping.  On this show, my vote would go to "I know you as well as I know my own name... I know you in my bones."  And the arrow, it's not that Laurel shot the arrow, but that the show put her into the position to shoot it. Why was she following Oliver around anyway?  I think Lauriver was the pandering in Streets of Blood, and there was a lot of it.

 

ETA:  I just watched the 'Felicity bucks up Oliver in the clock tower' scene and noticed 3 things I'd missed before:

1:  Oliver is apologizing to her when he says that he didn't see this coming 5 years ago. Not just explaining but it sounds like an apology maybe for failing her too.

 

2.  As she gives her speech, the music rises. Real epic music through the hug and Oliver's determination to keep fighting.

 

3.  As Oliver leaves with Diggle to get the cure, he's a lot more open to Felicity. He was friendly but always a bit closed off, now that it's the endgame, his walls are down.  (Also noted that when Oliver tells Felicity to stay, she stays, unlike Laurel.)

 

I love that Blood's mask is the physical representation of  his fear of his father.  And as a fan of The Daily Show, I smiled at his American flag lapel pin as well as his red, white and blue tie.

Edited May 10, 2014 by statsgirl

[Chairman Meow]

I would agree that the online (and vocal) fans are a very small minority of the viewing audience for most shows, but I would think that the demographic make-up of shows like Arrow and Teen Wolf (and the networks they air on) make it far more likely that more of the casual audience is actually active online.  Maybe not in a fan capacity, but still there and more likely to become involved in fandom than the audience for Castle or NCIS or other shows that draw a more mature and less 'plugged in' demographic.

 

To keep this relevant to the thread:  For me it's a toss up as to what my favorite moment of the episode was, Felicity hitting Isabel with the van was pretty freaking awesome, but when Lance got his detective shield back, I actually cheered (and may have shed a little tear.) 

Edited May 12, 2014 by Chairman Meow

[BkWurm1]

Maybe not in a fan capacity, but still there and more likely to become involved in fandom than the audience for Castle or NCIS or other shows that draw a more mature and less 'plugged in' demographic.

 

Taken to The Quiver - Smalltalk

[Chaser]

Well all she has to do is take the outfit off her sister's corpse, put it on and everyone will think she did all those heroic things. So she gets to be an instant super hero!

Hooly Shitt

[tv echo]

222 (Streets of Fire) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

222 (Streets of Fire) – Felicity rescues Diggle from Isabel Rochev AKA Ravager:
(Diggle is fighting Ravager.)
Ravager: "Do you want to save me some time and energy? Then tell me where I can find Felicity Smoak? I have been aching to put a bullet in her smug little face ever since the day -"
(She gets struck by a van driven by Felicity.)
Felicity: "Oh, I really thought the air bags were gonna go off."
Diggle (getting into van): "Thanks for the help. Any word from Oliver?"
Felicity: "Dig? (Watches Isabel getting up) What do you think? Hit her again?"
Diggle: "Go, go, go, go, go, go, go!"

222 (Streets of Fire) – Team Arrow reconvenes to retrieve the cure:
Diggle: "You okay?"
Laurel: "Yeah."
Oliver: "You?"
Felicity: "Isabel attacked Dig, so I hit her with the van."
Oliver: "Slade's army. He has at least 50 men out there, all like him."
Diggle: "They're everywhere." 
Oliver: "We need to stop them." 
Felicity: "We might have a way. S.T.A.R. Labs called. They have a cure. There's a courier en route."
Oliver: "Where is it?"
(Cell phone rings.)
Courier (gasping, on phone): "Hello?" 
Felicity: "Hey, it's Felicity Smoak. Where are you?"
Courier (on phone): "Fourth Street, I think. I don't know what happened. A guy in a hockey mask came out of nowhere and attacked my truck. Please help me." 
Oliver (using disguised voice): "Stay where you are."
Courier (on phone): "I can't move even if I wanted to. I think my leg's broken."
Laurel: "You should go." 
Oliver: "Laurel, I'm not leaving you out here in the middle of this."
Laurel: "The precinct - it's in the other direction. I'll be fine."
Oliver: "No."
Laurel: "I don't need you right now. Everyone else does. So go. Go save the city." (She leaves)
Courier (on phone): "Hey! You still there?"
Felicity: "Yeah, I'm here. I pinged your phone. On our way." 
Courier (on phone): "Please hurry."
*  *  *
Felicity: "In the last five minutes, SCPD has had over 200 reports of masked men attacking the city."
Oliver: "Should have gone with Laurel and made sure she got to the precinct."
Felicity: "She'll be with her father. She'll be fine. She will, Oliver."

222 (Streets of Fire) – Team Arrow goes to get the cure from the courier, but their van is intercepted by Slade’s men and crashes: 
Diggle: "Any word from Thea? Is she safe?" 
Oliver: "She decided to leave Starling before the attacks started."
Felicity: "Just under two miles to the bridge. And the courier."
(Cell phone rings.)
Felicity: "It's for you."
Oliver (using disguised voice): "What is it, Detective?" 
Quentin (on phone): "How can we help you?"
Oliver: "We?" 
Quentin (on phone): "The Starling City police force is standing with you on this one."
Oliver: "We need help containing the soldiers. We're working something and it may stop them, but we need more time." 
Quentin (on phone): "We can do that. Whatever you're doing, good luck. For all our sakes." (Hangs up)
Felicity: "This is the only street that feeds into the bridge."
(They're chased by another vehicle.)
Oliver: "Floor it!"
Diggle: "Hold on!"
(Their van crashes and overturns.) 
Oliver: "Dig? Diggle!"
Diggle: "Yeah, yeah." 
Oliver (seeing an unconscious Felicity): "Is she breathing? (Diggle feels her pulse) Felicity!"
Diggle: "Yeah, yeah." 
Oliver: "Then we have to get out of here." 
Diggle: "Yeah, I'm on it."
(Diggle pulls Felicity out of the van and picks her up. Oliver shoots an explosive arrow into the van just as some masked goons approach it.  He then limps over to Diggle and takes Felicity's unconscious body from him and carries her away from the burning van.)
*  *  *
(Felicity is being carried by Oliver and she regains consciousness.)
Felicity: "I can walk now."
Oliver (putting her on her own feet): "Where is he?" 
Felicity: "The cell phone GPS says he should be within a 500-foot radius. I'll call."
(Cell phone rings.)
Courier (on phone): "Hey, where are you?" 
Felicity: "We're here. Where are you? Honk your horn."
Courier (on phone): "Cool. Hold on. (Honks horn) Wait! I can see your feet. You're standing right outside my car."
Felicity: "That's not us." (Hears screaming over phone.) 
(Oliver, Diggle and Felicity find dead courier and missing briefcase that held cure.)
Felicity: "Oh, no!"
Oliver: "It's gone."

222 (Streets of Fire) – Oliver is at an utter loss about how to stop Slade and save Starling City and confesses his despair to Felicity:
Felicity: "I just got off the phone with Cisco at S.T.A.R. Labs."
Diggle: "The cure they sent us was all they had. And they used all the Mirakuru that we gave them, so they can't make more." 
Oliver: "We can't stop Slade's men without the cure." 
Diggle: "We'll find another way."
Oliver: "There is no other way! The Foundry's been compromised and we need to get Roy out of there."
Diggle: "I'm on it." (Leaves)
Oliver: “I didn’t know, Felicity. Five years ago, I was a completely different person. And I had no idea that something like this was even possible. I couldn't have imagined it. When you and Diggle brought me back to Starling City, I made a vow to myself that I would never let anything like the Undertaking happen again.” 
Felicity: “What's happening now is not your fault.” 
Oliver: “Yes, it is. I have failed this city. Yao Fei. Shado. Tommy. My father. My mother. All that I have ever wanted to do is honor those people.” 
Felicity: “You honor the dead by fighting. And you are not done fighting! Malcolm Merlyn, the Count, the Clock King, the Triad - everyone who was trying to hurt this city, you stopped them. And you will stop Slade.” 
Oliver: “I don't know how.”
Felicity: “Neither do I. But I do know two things... You are not alone... And I believe in you.” (Hugs him)

222 (Streets of Fire) – Oliver and Diggle go to meet with Sebastian Blood and get the cure, while Felicity stays with unconscious Roy:
(Cell phone rings.)
Felicity: "Oliver. This is your phone."
Oliver: "What do you want?"
Sebastian (on phone): "Same thing you do, Oliver. To save this city before it's too late." 
Oliver: "It's already too late." 
Sebastian (on phone): "You were right about Slade Wilson. I should have listened to you. But I'm here now and I can help you." 
Oliver: "Why should I trust you?"
Sebastian (on phone): "Because, Oliver, I have the Mirakuru cure."
*  *  *
Oliver (looking at unconscious Roy): "How much venom do we have to keep him under?"
Diggle: "Two hours, maybe."
Oliver: "Let's go. (To Felicity) Hey. I need you to stay with Roy." 
Felicity: “Okay. Oliver, John - um, maybe this is obvious, but are we sure this isn't a trap?” 
Oliver: “No.”
Felicity: “I'm just saying, if you guys don't come back alive, I'm going to be really pissed.” 
(Oliver squeezes her shoulder in reassurance.)

222 (Streets of Fire) – Team Arrow learns that Amanda Waller plans to use ARGUS to level Starling City in order to stop Slade’s army:
Felicity: "Why does every secret formula have to be a color? Whatever happened to good, old-fashioned clear?" 
Diggle: "All right, so if we inject one of Slade's soldiers with this -"
Felicity: "According to S.T.A.R. Labs, it will counteract the effects."
Diggle: "Assuming they got the recipe right."
Oliver: "We need to test it." 
Felicity: "We can't. Treat Roy like some kind of lab rat?" 
Oliver: "Felicity."
Felicity: "What if it doesn't work? What if it kills him? What if he wakes up and kills us?"
Oliver: "We need to know. One way or the other."
*  *  *
(Oliver prepares to inject Roy with the cure.)
Oliver: "I'm sorry. (Stops before injecting Roy.) I can't."
(Cell phone rings.)
Felicity: "It's Lance. Detective."
Quentin (on phone): "Are you near him?" 
Felicity: "Yes."
Quentin (on phone): "Are you near a TV?"
Felicity: "Yes."
Quentin (on phone): "Turn it on."
Female News Anchor (on TV): "You're watching live footage of an army convoy arriving on the outskirts of the city to restore order."
(Cell phone rings.)
Waller (on phone): "How did you get this number?" 
Oliver: "Amanda. What are you doing?"
Waller (on phone): "I'm not sure what you mean." 
Oliver: "Amanda, the troops taking up position at the city's exits - they're not army, they're A.R.G.U.S. Those are your men. So you tell me what you're up to. Amanda!"
Waller (on phone): "Slade's followers are a clear and present danger. I cannot allow them to escape the city. They need to be contained... by any means necessary."
Oliver: "You can't." 
Waller (on phone): "There's a drone en route carrying six GBU/43-B bombs - enough fire power to level the city."
Oliver: "There are over half a million people in this city."
Waller (on phone): "576,000. None of whom deserve to die. But I have to think about the people in every city. You once told me that Mirakuru made a man virtually unstoppable. What could happen to this country, this world, if I don't end this here and now?"
Oliver: "Listen to me. I have the cure. I can stop Slade and his men."
Waller (on phone): "I can't take the chance you'll fail, Oliver."
Oliver: "Amanda, I just need more time."
Waller (on phone): "I'm sorry. You have until dawn. And then Starling City is a crater."
(Oliver injects Roy with the cure.)

Edited February 15, 2020 by tv echo