S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf

[Colorful Mess]

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance. Because yeah, any sex scene with a freaking VOICEOVER about INCEST is sooooooo hot.

But one thing I really have on my wishlist for S8 is NO INCEST BABY - GRRM has made it clear that incest caused the downfall of the Targaryens. This show is about the STARKS not the Targs - a Targ incest baby would very much detract from that. And for me, the reason why they keep mentioning Dany can't have kids is to give Jon a little bit of leeway so he knows he won't father a bastard. Also sometimes when a woman says she cant have kids, that means SHE CANT HAVE KIDS (speaking as an infertile myself).

But why does he even have sex with her? I can't see it anything more than a power move. Tyrion lurking in the background of the scene "you need to learn how to lie" - Um, he's using sex to win power over her. Or, maybe it is all just about cocks in the end (great line Jaime)

ALSO Maybe I'm a Jon Snow fan but I don't even believe his "Northern Fool" act. I feel like he is aware of that trope - why would he fulfill it? Theon even noticed how weird it was that Jon would do that. Also we KNOW he can lie - he's done it before with Mance and the wildlings. 

Perhaps in the dragon pit he put on a show to hide his own manipulation of Dany.

Jon isn't here to repeat the Ned/Robb Stark story line.

My husband and I were debating about the ice dragon - will it breathe blue fire or ice? I won that bet with the former, because how else are you going to melt that Wall down? As fantasy nerd I am VERY pleased with that last sequence. It was so reminiscent of the Nazgul and Sauron's armies, just give me that LOTR shit from here on out.

Also it was fun to point at the screen when the Wall was falling and yell, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR AUNT.

[Francie]

Anyone else notice that both Sansa and Jaime said they were slow learners this season?  

I'm not sure what to make of that. 

[britesongs]

So, apparently Bran really is Google. You just have to make sure you use the right search terms to get the results you want.

[Blonde Gator]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

The writers were trying to make Bran the new Stannis, checking and correcting everyone's grammar :D :D :D

Although that was baffling. Jon was a Snow because he was a bastard son of a northern lord (Ned).  It did not have anything to do with where he was born.  If Jon was a bastard son of a Targaryen (Rhaegar), shouldn't his last name be Storm???  

I think it depends on where they were born (usually where Mom was from).  Storm is Stormlands.  Blood Raven was a Rivers (mom was a Blackwood, bannermen of River Run).  Although Robert has a bastard named Maya Stone, born of a Vale maid.  Perhaps since Jon's mom was a northerner (per Ned's lack of telling WHO Jon's mom was)....ergo, he's a Snow.  Bran believes since Jon was born in Dorne, hence his mom was Dornish, so he's a Sand.  Until Sam straightens him out.

Stannis would say "we need fewer bastards"!

[GraceK]

I'm also legitimately confused as to whose side Tyrion is on. I don't trust him at all anymore. 

I understand they have to drag this out, but it really makes no sense to have Cersi Alive. Dany could have just barbecued Her and The mountain and gotten rid if her enemy, then could have focused on the WW with no need for a truce. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by GraceK

[mac123x]

Where were Drogon and Rhaegal during Jon and Dany's sexy-time cruise north?

 

One horribly minor nitpick -- I hate the establishing shot of the Love Boat as it's sailing -- the seas are way too calm. 

[SimoneS]

Just now, GraceK said:

I'm also legitimately confused as to whose side Tyrion is on. I don't trust him at all anymore. 

I think that we are supposed to think that Tyrion is conflicted, but he is really not. I wouldn't trust him if I was Daenerys. After the war with the NK, I would put Tyrion under lock and key until after I dealt with his siblings. 

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

And we know this because...?  This is an assumption.  The only thing we saw was the discussion on Dragonstone.  Everyone was saying, "Great!  Jorah's back and he knows war and tactics; he can take over from Tyrion, who doesn't."  So maybe it was Jorah's plan

Jon was the leader of the exedition, other than Tormund, he's the only one who even  saw a wight close up.  So yea if I had to choose between Jon and Tormund {who didn't even know they were coming,} I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it was Jon's idea.

8 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I disagree.  How many posts did we see over the last couple of weeks talking about how dumb the wight plan was because Cersei would never honor her promise to send troops to help them?  That being the case, Jon's honesty was irrelevant.  So if Jon had lied, she would have just lied to them sooner than she ended up lying to them?  That would have somehow been a win for the Good Guys?  This is who Jon is--and maybe it's the reason the LoL brought him back.  (It also confirmed for Dany that this was someone she could trust and ally with.)

Wight hunt was dumb that still doesn't change the fact that the entire point of the wight plan was to get Cersei to agree to a truce. So was Jon's plan,  I give you nothing and you do as I say? Because that's a pretty stupid plan.  

 

12 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

At some point, Rhaegar was too dead to prevent anyone from bringing her upsetting news.  I think she was well aware that Rhaegar, Elia Martell and the kids were dead when Ned arrived.  

At no point was there anybody at the tower not working for Rhaegar. If he said not to bring her upsetting news, they likely didn't do it.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Tyrion has become the dumbest person in Westeros. I am convinced that more than ever that he is subconsciously trying to win over Cersei or at least save her and Jaime. Dany needs to dump his treacherous  ass.

He totally looked pissed that Jon and Dany hooked up, I wonder if he was going to hook up Jamie with her?

Also would he take Cersei out or force her to Casterly Rock.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

All the talk of it mattering whether Jon lied is making me contemplate the conversation Cersei had to have had with Euron before the big meeting.  "Okay, they're going to show us something horrible and you're going to do the equivalent of noping on out of here like your entire schtick is not built on you being a crazy murderous bastard not afraid of anything.  Your prize is getting to play ferry service for my new army and me at the end."

"Sounds good."

I think it was more, "Look for an opportunity to find a reason to publicly break your alliance with me and leave." 

[that one guy]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

As for giving the NK a dragon:  There are those who talk about how stupid the wight plan who say that Dany should just have done a flyover.  Two problems with that, as I see it:  First, that still would put a dragon in the line of fire.  The NK was gunning for a dragon and he'd come prepared to take one down.

I read a pretty smart military analysis of the use of dragons somewhere, don't know where it is right now. But essentially, they aren't nukes, they're close air support, like the A-10 Warthog. A dragon can be taken down by a scorpion (Meraxes in Dorne) or the rider can be killed, etc. The Army of the Dead can be fought with conventional forces, penned in by fortifications, lit on fire by wildfire, flaming arrows etc. The Walkers can be hit by arrows with dragonglass heads. These methods would be more effective alone than dragons alone. Combined with conventional forces, dragons would be really helpful, essentially as giant matches to set wights on fire with. But dragons without an army to support aren't really all that, unless they're attacking a stationary target. The Dornish were never defeated by dragons because they refused to mass their forces into a big convenient target. Think of trying to fight against the Dothraki with a dragon, rather than with them. They'd just scatter. The Valyrian Freehold did manage to keep the Dothraki out of central Essos before the Doom, but they had a lot of dragons, not just  two or three. Aegon Targaryen used dragons to stunning effect, but always in support of his conventional forces. 

All of which is to say that, I'm pretty sure had Dany flown north to scout the Army of the Dead on dragonback, she would have found the Night King and she'd be dead now, and the Night King would be riding undead Drogon. Now if she'd taken 5,000 men on horseback, and also a dragon, that mission might have succeeded.

[LilWharveyGal]

The wall I'm concerned about is the one at Winterfell. Who's going to prevent it from crumbling now that Littlefinger isn't there to hold it up?

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I'm also legitimately confused as to whose side Tyrion is on. I don't trust him at all anymore. 

I understand they have to drag this out, but it really makes no sense to have Cersi Alive. Dany could have just barbecued Her and The mountain and gotten rid if her enemy, then could have focused on the WW with no need for a truce. 

Who's watching the throne while Dany's away on this expedition? It makes more sense to leave Cersei there, better the enemy you know, etc etc.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Oscirus

[Pogojoco]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance. Because yeah, any sex scene with a freaking VOICEOVER about INCEST is sooooooo hot.

But one thing I really have on my wishlist for S8 is NO INCEST BABY - GRRM has made it clear that incest caused the downfall of the Targaryens. This show is about the STARKS not the Targs - a Targ incest baby would very much detract from that. And for me, the reason why they keep mentioning Dany can't have kids is to give Jon a little bit of leeway so he knows he won't father a bastard. Also sometimes when a woman says she cant have kids, that means SHE CANT HAVE KIDS (speaking as an infertile myself).

But why does he even have sex with her? I can't see it anything more than a power move. Tyrion lurking in the background of the scene "you need to learn how to lie" - Um, he's using sex to win power over her. Or, maybe it is all just about cocks in the end (great line Jaime)

ALSO Maybe I'm a Jon Snow fan but I don't even believe his "Northern Fool" act. I feel like he is aware of that trope - why would he fulfill it? Theon even noticed how weird it was that Jon would do that. Also we KNOW he can lie - he's done it before with Mance and the wildlings. 

Perhaps in the dragon pit he put on a show to hide his own manipulation of Dany.

Jon isn't here to repeat the Ned/Robb Stark story line.

My husband and I were debating about the ice dragon - will it breathe blue fire or ice? I won that bet with the former, because how else are you going to melt that Wall down? As fantasy nerd I am VERY pleased with that last sequence. It was so reminiscent of the Nazgul and Sauron's armies, just give me that LOTR shit from here on out.

Also it was fun to point at the screen when the Wall was falling and yell, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR AUNT.

I love you. I was a little sad when you said you were married. This is exactly how I feel about the Jon/Dany thing. It's creepy.

[britesongs]

I would also like to note that I enjoyed Arya and Sansa's last scene. That was much more what I expected from them and their relationship at this point. Still an awareness that they aren't the same and will always be different, but both acknowledging the importance of sticking together. Quoting Ned and getting a bit emotional while they stood there worked for me. Sansa asking if Arya was bothered by the idea of Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell and Arya responding in a sensible and mature way was what I wanted in place of all the menacing (fake) conversations, so I was glad to still get that instead of just being left knowing all the other crap was fake. I guess I can change my computer password back to AryaStark now.

Edited August 28, 2017 by britesongs
You should recognize "Arya" by now, autocorrect.

[Oscirus]

If they were going to have that pack speech, wouldn't it have made more sense for Bran to be there? 

LMAO, I swear that was a coincidence, this was in no way a reply to the person above me.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Oscirus

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I think it depends on where they were born (usually where Mom was from).  Storm is Stormlands.  Blood Raven was a Rivers (mom was a Blackwood, bannermen of River Run).  Although Robert has a bastard named Maya Stone, born of a Vale maid.  Perhaps since Jon's mom was a northerner (per Ned's lack of telling WHO Jon's mom was)....ergo, he's a Snow.  Bran believes since Jon was born in Dorne, hence his mom was Dornish, so he's a Sand.  Until Sam straightens him out.

Stannis would say "we need fewer bastards"!

No, Bran knew that Jon's mom was Lyanna (Ned's sister) that was never doubted. Bran said "(Jon) was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna".  If mom's origin was taken into account and Lyanna for sure was a northern lady, then Snow still would have been the correct bastard name for Jon

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

He totally looked pissed that Jon and Dany hooked up, I wonder if he was going to hook up Jamie with her?

Also would he take Cersei out or force her to Casterly Rock.

I couldn't tell what Peter Dinklage was going for with that expression on the boat which is unusual because he is such a good actor.

I don't see how either Jaime or Tyrion could get pass Gregor or Qyburn to deal with Cersei. I am convinced that she will have a miscarriage and will set King's Landing on fire before she surrenders. 

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Um... wow. Wow. Wow...

But question- what was up with Tyrion at the end on the boat? Did Sam send a raven that quickly, so he knows? Or he's jealous? Or afraid of what their alliance will do?

Yeah Tyrion looked PO and Jealous as shit, betrayal for love of Cersei and child, may be coming.

[ulkis]

Wasn't part of the prophecy "when the mountains crumble into dust"? Seems like the wall falling could be that part.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

I couldn't tell what Peter Dinklage was going for with that expression on the boat which is unusual because he is such a good actor.

I don't see how either Jaime or Tyrion could get pass Gregor or Qyburn to deal with Cersei. I am convinced that she will have a miscarriage and will set King's Landing on fire before she surrenders. 

Possibly now we got 12-18 months, Outlander 3 coming, but WOW need to get out.

[mac123x]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

in the end, if all they needed as "evidence" was Bran's visions, why did they bother to play act in the first place?

I'll give Sansa a modicum of credit here.  When she confronted Littlefinger in the great hall, she started off with something that wasn't based on Bran's visions -- the murder of Lysa Arryn.  She put LF back on his heels with that, then followed it up with something that probably came from Bran, but he couldn't be sure -- Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn at Littlefinger's behest.  Then he slipped up by saying something about how Sansa shouldn't believe everything Lysa said because she was a troubled woman, etc.  She hit him again with something that didn't necessary depend on Bran-o-Vision (though it probably did): Lysa's letter to Catelyn. 

 

She had him thoroughly rattled, then she and Bran could hit him with the stuff that was definitely from Google!Bran.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Yeah Tyrion looked PO and Jealous as shit, betrayal for love of Cersei and child, may be coming.

They've gone out of their way to make Tyrion the second most moral man on this show, I doubt he betrays Dany because he's all of a sudden in love with her and mad at her for hooking up with Jon.

[britesongs]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

If they were going to have that pack speech, wouldn't it have made more sense for Bran to be there?

In so much as Jon should have been there as well, but to me, this wasn't about the family overall but about those two in particular burying the catspaw dagger, so to speak, and cementing the fact that they are beyond the trivial conflicts of their childhood. Not that they won't still argue or disagree (they're too different not to), but it won't split them apart. 

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

Yeah Tyrion looked PO and Jealous as shit, betrayal for love of Cersei and child, may be coming.

Was that the look on his face?  I thought he was glad that they hook up?  He pushed for the hook up afterall

[that one guy]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They've gone out of their way to make Tyrion the second most moral man on this show, I doubt he betrays Dany because he's all of a sudden in love with her and mad at her for hooking up with Jon.

There was that one time he strangled his girlfriend after finding her in bed with his dad.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If they were going to have that pack speech, wouldn't it have made more sense for Bran to be there? 

LMAO, I swear that was a coincidence, this was in no way a reply to the person above me.

Bran was too busy sending his web crawling bots to gather more data in the world wide web :P

[ulkis]

Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret once they got married? 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

She hit him again with something that didn't necessary depend on Bran-o-Vision (though it probably did): Lysa's letter to Catelyn. 

 

Sansa never saw that letter, she was abed, like Ned and Cat until Luwin knocked. So Bran Vision, but Sansa played him right to the end telling her what his plan was through his game vision.

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, that one guy said:

There was that one time he strangled his girlfriend after finding her in bed with his dad.

But she grabbed for her knife first, it was self defense. Compare that scene to the book scene.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They've gone out of their way to make Tyrion the second most moral man on this show, I doubt he betrays Dany because he's all of a sudden in love with her and mad at her for hooking up with Jon.

He'll be the betrayer of Love maybe, love for Cersei's child, then baby kills Cersi, Baby lives or dies, don't know.

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, ulkis said:

Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret once they got married? 

There was this Robert rebellion that the Targs were losing so he hid the fact to protect Lyanna & Jon's life

[Ambrosefolly]

The only lie about Robert's Rebellion was that Lyanna was totally worth fighting over. Killing Rhaegar was totally worth it, however, not a lie. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Ambrosefolly

[dragonsbite]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

The Jon/Theon scene was the best part of the episode. Both of them discussing what made them, them. Jon calling Theon a Stark with the Stark music swelling. Theon getting his metaphorical balls back and taking back leadership to go save Yara. Hell yeah.

It was a wonderful scene. I loved that Jon was willing to forgive Theon for most of the things that he had done...which helped Theon get his figurative balls back. 

I also got hit by a lot of anvils regarding which way Jon should lean now that it's canon he's the heir to the Iron Throne. Like Theon, he's Ned's son...doesn't matter who his biological father was. He'll be both a Stark -- by training and love -- and a Targaryen by birth. That's a fabulous heritage. 

[DarkRaichu]

One criticism, the title is The Dragon and The Wolf BUT we NEVER saw Ghost anywhere in the episode ????  For all we know he is the last male Dire Wolf left.  Is he busy chasing Nymeria to continue the lineage ??? :P

[Blonde Gator]

5 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

No, Bran knew that Jon's mom was Lyanna (Ned's sister) that was never doubted. Bran said "(Jon) was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna".  If mom's origin was taken into account and Lyanna for sure was a northern lady, then Snow still would have been the correct bastard name for Jon

Beats me.  It seems to be kind of a mess.....so, Bran calling Jon a "Sand", may just be a misconception on his (or D&D's part).  They're as confused as we are, LOL!

Here's the entry from the Wiki of Ice and Fire (Westeros.org):
 

Quote

 

Each of the nine constituent regions of the Seven Kingdoms have bastard surnames decreed by custom, not law.[26] Bastards with a high-born parent are given these surnames to hold them apart from their parent's houses.[26] The parents may give a bastard a different surname if they wish, e.g. Tyrion Tanner[27], or no name at all.[26] Bastard children of two people of the smallfolk are not given a distinctive surname.[26] A bastard might also chose a surname for himself. Daemon Waters took the surname Blackfyre at the age of twelve, after having been knighted and having received lands and the Valyrian steel sword of the same name from his father, King Aegon IV Targaryen.[21]

The surname a bastard received appears to be connected to the location the child is raised, though this is not a consistent rule. Because of this, bastards who are half-siblings might have different surnames. For example, King Robert I Baratheon's eldest bastard, born and raised in the Vale, is called Mya Stone, while his bastard from the stormlands (fathered on a noblewoman from the Reach) is called Edric Storm. However, whilst Aegor Rivers was raised at Stone Hedge in the riverlands, his half-brother Brynden was also called Rivers, despite having lived at least the first few years of his life with his mother at King's Landing in the crownlands.[21] Prince Oberyn Martell's eight bastard daughters all have the surname Sand, even though the eldest, Obara, lived in Oldtown in the Reach during the earlier years of her life,[28] and her sister Nymeria was born in Volantis, across the narrow sea.[29]

 

[SimoneS]

It just occurred to me that Jorah probably figured it out when Dany took Jon's advice over his. 

[mac123x]

Just now, DarkRaichu said:

One criticism, the title is The Dragon and The Wolf BUT we NEVER saw Ghost anywhere in the episode ????  For all we know he is the last male Dire Wolf left.  Is he busy chasing Nymeria to continue the lineage ??? :P

More incest!  LOL.  It would have been nice to have Ghost lurking in the great hall while Littlefinger got knifed, but the CGI budget this season was 98% dragons.

[dragonsbite]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

So, it looks like the dragon has its second head. 

What the heck does the dragon have three heads mean, then? 

What if the three heads means a True Stark (the NK), a Stark-Targaryen (Jon), and a Targaryen (Dany)?

Edited August 28, 2017 by dragonsbite
i admit it. i'm a grammar fascist.

[Lemuria]

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Jon was the leader of the exedition, other than Tormund, he's the only one who even  saw a wight close up.  So yea if I had to choose between Jon and Tormund {who didn't even know they were coming,} I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it was Jon's idea.

Still an assumption.  Jon was the leader because he was the only "king" there but he's never been someone who wouldn't listen to others.  

And besides, I'm still waiting to hear what a better option was.  If this is the only chance you have, then this is what you do, no matter how risky it might be.

 

Quote

Wight hunt was dumb that still doesn't change the fact that the entire point of the wight plan was to get Cersei to agree to a truce. So was Jon's plan,  I give you nothing and you do as I say? Because that's a pretty stupid plan.  

I think he was saying, "I'm not going to lie to you about not becoming Switzerland--and I'm not lying to you about the fact that if you want to have a snowball's chance in Hell of holding onto the Iron Throne, you'd better help do something about the undead army."  YMMV.

 

I did like the Jon-Theon scene very much.  Theon deserves a shot at redemption:  He did bad things and he paid a harsh price for it.  I loved that, as angry as we saw Jon was when he first encountered Theon this season, he still forgave him as much as he could.  

I also loved the scenes with the snow starting to fly around.  All the more chilling (no pun intended!) for the lack of neon-sign music behind it.  

Quote

Cleganebowl fucking CONFIRMED people!

I know!  When I heard the Hound say that, I was all, "The internet's going to go nuts."  LOL

Quote

What if the three heads mean a True Stark (the NK), a Stark-Targaryen (Jon), and a Targaryen (Dany)?

That's a very interesting idea.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemuria

[Blonde Gator]

13 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I'll give Sansa a modicum of credit here.  When she confronted Littlefinger in the great hall, she started off with something that wasn't based on Bran's visions -- the murder of Lysa Arryn.  She put LF back on his heels with that, then followed it up with something that probably came from Bran, but he couldn't be sure -- Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn at Littlefinger's behest.  Then he slipped up by saying something about how Sansa shouldn't believe everything Lysa said because she was a troubled woman, etc.  She hit him again with something that didn't necessary depend on Bran-o-Vision (though it probably did): Lysa's letter to Catelyn. 

 

She had him thoroughly rattled, then she and Bran could hit him with the stuff that was definitely from Google!Bran.

I seem to recall Sansa hearing Lysa & Peter Baelish talking about how she helped him poison Jon Arryn.....when Peter caught Lysa trying to toss Sansa out the Moon Door.  Lysa was screaming "I love you, I've always loved you, I poisoned my husband for you, blah, blah, blah".  I'd have to rewatch the episode, but I really believe show Sansa heard that herself, straight from Lysa and in front of Littlefinger.

[ulkis]

6 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

There was this Robert rebellion that the Targs were losing so he hid the fact to protect Lyanna & Jon's life

Didn't the rebellion start once they got married? And Ned would have turned away from Robert if the truth has been told. 

[Oscirus]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He'll be the betrayer of Love maybe, love for Cersei's child, then baby kills Cersi, Baby lives or dies, don't know.

As per this show, Tyrion's interested in a better world, he's not going to give that up because Dany has feelings for Jon and not him.

1 minute ago, doram said:

But it still begs the question of how Sansa & Arya led up to this. Why it was even necessary? 

And bringing up the murder of Lysa Arryn ---- wasn't Sansa's testimony what got him off that murder in the first place? ::head-desk::

Why even bother with this charade? She literally could've done this as soon as Jon left, so what was she waiting for? 

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Beats me.  It seems to be kind of a mess.....so, Bran calling Jon a "Sand", may just be a misconception on his (or D&D's part).  They're as confused as we are, LOL!

Here's the entry from the Wiki of Ice and Fire (Westeros.org):
 

I am going to go with D&D (showrunners) decided to be inconsistent just to create drama.  That seems to be their MO as of late

[that one guy]

3 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

6 minutes ago, ulkis said:

Why did Rhaegar keep it a secret once they got married? 

There was this Robert rebellion that the Targs were losing so he hid the fact to protect Lyanna & Jon's life

So there's this history of difficult pregnancies when it comes to Targaryens trying to have children with non-Valyrians. This is why they mostly married their own or House Velaryon. Dany blames Mirri Maz Dur for her stillbirth and childlessness, but is that the truth? Rhaegar believed this three headed dragon prophecy, but only managed 2 kids with Elia, they were difficult births that almost killed her. He met Lyanna at the Tourney at Harrenhall, the Mad King though there was a plot against him, and ordered Rhaegar to find and kill the Mystery Knight. It turns out the Mystery Knight is just Lyanna Stark defending Howland Reed's honor. She's feisty, she's hot, she appears strong as a horse and tough as nails. Rhaegar doesn't kill her, and thinks she's a great candidate to bear his third child (it doesn't work out in the end, she'd not blood of the dragon and dies in childbirth). Rhaegar tells his dad the Mystery Knight disappeared, leaving his shield behind. Dad knows nothing of his relationship with Lyanna, that's why it's a secret. If he found out, he'd have her killed. He was trying to protect Lyanna (and Jon) from his own father. Aerys II never knew the truth.

And also, Daenerys can probably have kids - but only with Jon. Or a Velaryon or Celtigar, or one of the surviving ethnic Valyrian masters of Volantis. Daario was either shooting blanks, or just didn't have any Valyrian ancestry.

[Blonde Gator]

5 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

What if the three heads means a True Stark (the NK), a Stark-Targaryen (Jon), and a Targaryen (Dany)?

Re your edit....

Just call yourself Stannis, already, LOL! 

I admire the grammar police, good for you.

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I am going to go with D&D (showrunners) decided to be inconsistent just to create drama.  That seems to be their MO as of late

Works for me! 

[ulkis]

On 8/28/2017 at 1:00 AM, that one guy said:

Dad knows nothing of his relationship with Lyanna, that's why it's a secret. If he found out, he'd have her killed. He was trying to protect Lyanna (and Jon) from his own father. Aerys II never knew the truth.

Thanks.

Edited September 3, 2017 by ulkis

[Shimmergloom]

2 hours ago, AGuyToo said:

I thought Bran (the all-seeing) simply told them what Littlefinger had done -- which sort of raises the question of why he didn't do so earlier.

A tell-tell sign of bad writing, is when it all happens offscreen.  What a stupid storyline.  I wanted so much better from all the Stark kids being back together again.  Instead we got crap.

[alaynestone]

47 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance. Because yeah, any sex scene with a freaking VOICEOVER about INCEST is sooooooo hot.

But one thing I really have on my wishlist for S8 is NO INCEST BABY - GRRM has made it clear that incest caused the downfall of the Targaryens. This show is about the STARKS not the Targs - a Targ incest baby would very much detract from that. And for me, the reason why they keep mentioning Dany can't have kids is to give Jon a little bit of leeway so he knows he won't father a bastard. Also sometimes when a woman says she cant have kids, that means SHE CANT HAVE KIDS (speaking as an infertile myself).

*Virtual hand five*  YES to everything you said!

That's my wishlist too.

[Kanner]

39 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

OH HELL YES I knew something was up with the chemistry between Jon and Dany! Never ONCE bought it. Its clear now that this isn't endgame romance. Because yeah, any sex scene with a freaking VOICEOVER about INCEST is sooooooo hot.

But one thing I really have on my wishlist for S8 is NO INCEST BABY - GRRM has made it clear that incest caused the downfall of the Targaryens. This show is about the STARKS not the Targs - a Targ incest baby would very much detract from that. And for me, the reason why they keep mentioning Dany can't have kids is to give Jon a little bit of leeway so he knows he won't father a bastard. Also sometimes when a woman says she cant have kids, that means SHE CANT HAVE KIDS (speaking as an infertile myself).

But why does he even have sex with her? I can't see it anything more than a power move. Tyrion lurking in the background of the scene "you need to learn how to lie" - Um, he's using sex to win power over her. Or, maybe it is all just about cocks in the end (great line Jaime)

ALSO Maybe I'm a Jon Snow fan but I don't even believe his "Northern Fool" act. I feel like he is aware of that trope - why would he fulfill it? Theon even noticed how weird it was that Jon would do that. Also we KNOW he can lie - he's done it before with Mance and the wildlings. 

Perhaps in the dragon pit he put on a show to hide his own manipulation of Dany.

Jon isn't here to repeat the Ned/Robb Stark story line.

My husband and I were debating about the ice dragon - will it breathe blue fire or ice? I won that bet with the former, because how else are you going to melt that Wall down? As fantasy nerd I am VERY pleased with that last sequence. It was so reminiscent of the Nazgul and Sauron's armies, just give me that LOTR shit from here on out.

Also it was fun to point at the screen when the Wall was falling and yell, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FUCK YOUR AUNT.

Being a Jon fan and having no problem with his honor, a small part of me would be so proud if he slept with Dany as a manipulation. That whole scene can be viewed through a lense of he and Tyrion working together. This is why he hesitates and braces himself to see her. Tyrion is looking sad about his betrayal. This could be the bittersweet ending. Jon wins but loses what makes him special - his goodness and honor. He just like every other horrible person playing this stupid game. 

I dont think that is the case though.