A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Camera One]

I think his relationship with Emma is more healthy than his relationship with Regina.  I still think Emma/Henry have chemistry when they have scenes together, alone, with no Regina in sight.  

[KingOfHearts]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I think his relationship with Emma is more healthy than his relationship with Regina.

Well, yeah. That's very true. I'm just saying that while Regina is a horrible mother, Emma isn't mother of the year. (But she's still better, even if the bar is set pretty low.)

Quote

I still think Emma/Henry have chemistry when they have scenes together, alone, with no Regina in sight.  

I think Emma and Henry had better chemistry when she was new to the mom thing and wasn't her primary guardian. When she wasn't obligated to always do the most responsible thing because she didn't have custody, it was easier for her to come down to his level. It was after Henry regained his memories in 3B that their scenes together weren't as organic. Even the scene in the S5 finale where they sat by the fountain and talked bout their year in New York wasn't that touching.

Edited May 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Regina gaslit Henry for years, she was needy, and Henry took on a parental role for her. However, neither Emma nor Regina were great parents to Henry. Henry acted like a little shit many times, and he was never disciplined for it. He never had to face any consequences for his disobedience. Some of the stunts he pulled like destroying magic ended up endangering a lot of people. And both his parents ended up encouraging his overblown opinion of himself that he was some great person who always did the right thing. This is what happens when you have an authorial self-insert character. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina gaslit Henry for years, she was needy, and Henry took on a parental role for her. However, neither Emma nor Regina were great parents to Henry. Henry acted like a little shit many times, and he was never disciplined for it. He never had to face any consequences for his disobedience. Some of the stunts he pulled like destroying magic ended up endangering a lot of people. And both his parents ended up encouraging his overblown opinion of himself that he was some great person who always did the right thing. This is what happens when you have an authorial self-insert character. 

 

I think one of my favorite moments was Emma berating Henry in 3x19. (You know, just before he tried to steal a truck.) It's too bad she was framed as the bad guy for it, because he needed a good smack to the butt.

Edited May 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

This show's unintended moral is "be careful what you wish for". You want female leads? They're also going to grovel and wait for an abuser (Rumple or Rumple) to save the day. IMO, this show has done more harm than good as far as feminism is concerned.

Totally.  Okay, so they put a sword in Snow White's hand.  But where did Snow White end up?  Someone who gave up her leadership role and accepted the submissive life that her nemesis chose for her.  Someone who threw her hands up and accepted death and defeat.  Someone who hoped things would get better instead of actually acting.  Someone who apologized for being victimized and felt shame even when she saved her family.  

And speaking of strong females, you have someone like Gothel who was psychotic.  Or someone like Tremaine who was a jealous and vindictive witch.  

[KAOS Agent]

15 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

I do think this goes both ways though. CS fans can be just as insane as Regina fans. And there are plenty of CS extremists if you browse the right posts. Emotion driving people away is an actual thing, for sure. I've had lots to post here about the show, since this is my go-to for tv discussion, but I don't do it. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I love Regina. I liked her redemption arc. I bought it. That doesn't make me wrong or naive or shallow. I get it, she's not everyone's cup of tea. Totally cool. But she's mine, and I'm good with that.

I don't think anyone is ignoring the vocal extremists on all sides of the fandom. There are some very scary people from all corners whose attention I would not want to draw. The turn the show took towards Regina/Rumpel and away from Snow and the other Storybrooke characters was under discussion. Since the topic was focused on S1/S2, Captain Swan was not under discussion. The fans of those sidelined characters drifted away leaving a larger portion of the show's remaining fans skewing towards those getting the most screen time and sympathetic POV. If the writers were looking to social media for support in this shift in storytelling, the emotionally involved Regina fans would seemingly provide confirmation that this change was super popular because they were very vocal and positive about their favorite character. Meanwhile, there was no push back from Snowing fans blasting them on Twitter for their treatment of Snowing because many of those fans had already quit watching. I'm not sure what the situation on Twitter was six years ago, but if you assume that over time Snowing fans drifted off and Regina fans were sticking around and loving it, then even as the use of Twitter grew, the overall size of the audience was shrinking and it was largely dominated by fans of the characters/stories that were getting screen time. If the writers were looking for affirmation that they are awesome storytellers, then this forms an echo chamber supporting their need.

Your love for Regina helps make the point. You are/were watching because you enjoy her and her story. Totally cool. If you didn't enjoy it, I assume you would have quit. Now imagine you were watching the show because you liked Snow and she was your favorite. How engaged would you have been with the show post S2/S3? No way would I have made it to S6 if Snow had been my favorite. Presumably, if this show had focused heavily on Snow and reduced Regina to the role Snow had in later seasons, the audience would still have shrunk; it just would have lost a different group of viewers. It isn't a knock at Regina or Captain Swan or any other character/ship to note the drop in audience and associate it with the changes in the show's direction - particularly the dramatic shift from S1 to S2. This show changed massively from S1 to S2. It went from an ensemble show based on a weird little town in Maine with a fairly straightforward overarching story to some random mashup fantasy show that focused mostly on a few characters and often had little direction, developed a very wonky morality and made little sense. A show that loses 37% of its audience over the course of its second season is doing something wrong. Clearly, whatever those people had enjoyed about the show was dropped and they tuned out.   I know why I quit the show (both times) and I know what moments turned me off to an extent that I was not as engaged or interested. It might be surprising, but Regina was never the reason. 

[superloislane]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

And both his parents ended up encouraging his overblown opinion of himself that he was some great person who always did the right thing. This is what happens when you have an authorial self-insert character. 

Henry was such a little shit but we weren't supposed to think that and I kind of agree that both Emma and Regina weren't great parents to him (obviously not to the same extent but I'm just talking about normal parenting here). It's always thrown around that Regina was the more strict parent, even in that new book about Henry and Violet which I have read passages from (for CS scenes!), but I can't remember her really disciplining him either when he did shitty things. 

And Emma was shown as the bad guy for daring to discipline Henry when he was trying to butt in to adult business and I remember they had cuts to everyone else's faces looking shocked that Emma dared to yell at him! Their weird style of parenting is exactly the reason why Henry was a)so cocky that he thought he had the right to just butt in on other fairytales that had nothing to do with him and b)such an ass that he just left his parents to travel around another universe for years without contacting them simply because he wanted to play the hero.

[CCTC]

36 minutes ago, superloislane said:

Henry was such a little shit but we weren't supposed to think that

In some ways Henry got the Regina treatment, where we were supposed to think everything he did was great, even if it was sometimes the opposite of great.  In the long run, him always being right did not help the character, because he became annoying (he became a little judgmental) and was harder to relate to as a real person/adolescent.  

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It went from an ensemble show based on a weird little town in Maine with a fairly straightforward overarching story to some random mashup fantasy show that focused mostly on a few characters and often had little direction, developed a very wonky morality and made little sense.

A excellent succinct summary of the bait and switch the writers pulled between Season 1 and the rest of the Show.

[asabovesobelow]

4 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I don't think anyone is ignoring the vocal extremists on all sides of the fandom. There are some very scary people from all corners whose attention I would not want to draw. The turn the show took towards Regina/Rumpel and away from Snow and the other Storybrooke characters was under discussion. Since the topic was focused on S1/S2, Captain Swan was not under discussion. The fans of those sidelined characters drifted away leaving a larger portion of the show's remaining fans skewing towards those getting the most screen time and sympathetic POV. If the writers were looking to social media for support in this shift in storytelling, the emotionally involved Regina fans would seemingly provide confirmation that this change was super popular because they were very vocal and positive about their favorite character. Meanwhile, there was no push back from Snowing fans blasting them on Twitter for their treatment of Snowing because many of those fans had already quit watching. I'm not sure what the situation on Twitter was six years ago, but if you assume that over time Snowing fans drifted off and Regina fans were sticking around and loving it, then even as the use of Twitter grew, the overall size of the audience was shrinking and it was largely dominated by fans of the characters/stories that were getting screen time. If the writers were looking for affirmation that they are awesome storytellers, then this forms an echo chamber supporting their need.

Your love for Regina helps make the point. You are/were watching because you enjoy her and her story. Totally cool. If you didn't enjoy it, I assume you would have quit. Now imagine you were watching the show because you liked Snow and she was your favorite. How engaged would you have been with the show post S2/S3? No way would I have made it to S6 if Snow had been my favorite. Presumably, if this show had focused heavily on Snow and reduced Regina to the role Snow had in later seasons, the audience would still have shrunk; it just would have lost a different group of viewers. It isn't a knock at Regina or Captain Swan or any other character/ship to note the drop in audience and associate it with the changes in the show's direction - particularly the dramatic shift from S1 to S2. This show changed massively from S1 to S2. It went from an ensemble show based on a weird little town in Maine with a fairly straightforward overarching story to some random mashup fantasy show that focused mostly on a few characters and often had little direction, developed a very wonky morality and made little sense. A show that loses 37% of its audience over the course of its second season is doing something wrong. Clearly, whatever those people had enjoyed about the show was dropped and they tuned out.   I know why I quit the show (both times) and I know what moments turned me off to an extent that I was not as engaged or interested. It might be surprising, but Regina was never the reason. 

I don't disagree. I wasn't looking at the semantics of the debate - meaning which season was being discussed. I didn't find the same vitriol throughout the fandom in S1/S2, but maybe that was just my experience. Now, there is a constant clash. Seemingly every post about a certain character or relationship has dozens of mad fans interjecting about why they such or why their 'ship is better. It's dumb.

Personally, I wish they had focused on the earlier characters that we grew attached to for the entirety of the series. I enjoyed Snowing very much, but I had Emma and Regina to keep me there. I firmly believe the ratings tanked because of the terrible storylines, which includes an overabundance of focus on particular characters. I don't think the show's demise can be attributed to anyone specific, it all went downhill fast.

My intent behind the post was to provide a dissenting view from the norm. If you read through the Once forums on PTV there are many posts about nutty SQ fans, OTT Regina fans, etc. I know some posters have acknowledged that there are rabid fans on all sides of the spectrum. It's just so heavily anti-SQ and Regina focused here, I wanted to throw out a different side of the coin. I'm not saying that people don't realize this, but if someone who might be a fan of Regina or SwanQueen or even SwanFire wants to post some thoughts, there are people here that feel the same way. Just clearly not in the majority.

I quit the show after last season. I love Regina, but hated the split queen with every fiber. It was cheesy, silly, and if it gave me EQ fatigue, I can only imagine how those that don't like character felt. There was nothing drawing me to Season 7. It was a rehash of everything we've seen, and focused on the ridiculous wish realm. Watching S1 compared to the first (and only) episode I watched of S7 is like two different shows. The magic is and has been gone for a long time.

[HariboPeach]

4 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Meanwhile, there was no push back from Snowing fans blasting them on Twitter for their treatment of Snowing because many of those fans had already quit watching. I'm not sure what the situation on Twitter was six years ago, but if you assume that over time Snowing fans drifted off and Regina fans were sticking around and loving it, then even as the use of Twitter grew, the overall size of the audience was shrinking and it was largely dominated by fans of the characters/stories that were getting screen time. If the writers were looking for affirmation that they are awesome storytellers, then this forms an echo chamber supporting their need.

I was heavily involved in social media aspect of OUAT in Seasons 1 and 2, and there wasn't much clamoring for Snow and Charming back then either. They were already together and shared true love, so there wasn't much for fans to freak out about. Shippers are the true downfall of every damn show.

 

11 minutes ago, asabovesobelow said:

My intent behind the post was to provide a dissenting view from the norm. If you read through the Once forums on PTV there are many posts about nutty SQ fans, OTT Regina fans, etc. I know some posters have acknowledged that there are rabid fans on all sides of the spectrum. It's just so heavily anti-SQ and Regina focused here, I wanted to throw out a different side of the coin. I'm not saying that people don't realize this, but if someone who might be a fan of Regina or SwanQueen or even SwanFire wants to post some thoughts, there are people here that feel the same way. Just clearly not in the majority.

This is sad because it is daunting to post anything against Emma or Hook. I've done it before and then quickly exited stage left. It's not fun when you're quoted and responded to in all caps or called out for siding with a rapist and a murderer or an abusive coward. And it sucks to see people high fiving each other for disagreeing with the minority opinion. If this were real life, every one of these people would be pretty despicable. But sometimes you want to come and chat for fun about a show you enjoy. I know there are people who have studied every detail of the show and prepared term papers about it, but for me it's passing enjoyment. I couldn't tell you the name of Season 4, Episode 7, but I can tell you that I loved when Rumple and Belle recreated the Beauty and the Beast dance. 

 

11 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

And both his parents ended up encouraging his overblown opinion of himself that he was some great person who always did the right thing. 

Henry is probably the worst character in the series. He's always been terrible, but it was easier to take when he was little. Seeing him as a goofy spoiled teenager thinking he's the the last hope of an unjust world is sickening.

[Free]

12 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

Meanwhile, there was no push back from Snowing fans blasting them on Twitter for their treatment of Snowing because many of those fans had already quit watching. I'm not sure what the situation on Twitter was six years ago, but if you assume that over time Snowing fans drifted off and Regina fans were sticking around and loving it, then even as the use of Twitter grew, the overall size of the audience was shrinking and it was largely dominated by fans of the characters/stories that were getting screen time. If the writers were looking for affirmation that they are awesome storytellers, then this forms an echo chamber supporting their need.

Not many people stuck around at all tbh from the looks of things, A&E managed to alienate lots of people, trying to reboot with most of the cast gone made it a whole lot easier to drop the show and that's what happened, they took their characters for granted when that's why most people stuck around to begin with.

[Camera One]

This show is strange, though, because other than one's favorite characters, there was also the attraction of fairy tale/Disney characters.  I never really considered quitting even though I've been bitterly disappointed with the sidelining and destruction of Snow because I was and continue to be fascinated with the concept.  With shows I watch until the end, like this one, I pretty much do have to enjoy all the characters to some extent.  So even though I wasn't the biggest fans of the A&E's favorites (Regina, Rumple, Hook and Zelena - the ex-villains), I still enjoy each of them to varying degrees.  Even though Henry has been thoroughly destroyed, there are still moments when I like him.  I would find it frustrating to watch a show where I loved a few characters with every fiber of my being and hated others with the fire of a thousand suns.  For me, that doesn't describe my feelings about this show.  

Edited May 17, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, asabovesobelow said:

I didn't find the same vitriol throughout the fandom in S1/S2, but maybe that was just my experience. Now, there is a constant clash. Seemingly every post about a certain character or relationship has dozens of mad fans interjecting about why they such or why their 'ship is better. It's dumb.

I think that's a part of every fandom after the first few seasons - especially when the storylines get worse so the audience start clinging to the relationships to keep them interested which leads to some serious insanity. This show is lucky actually because there are shows airing now that have that craziness in the very first season (I'm looking at you Flash fandom!).

1 hour ago, asabovesobelow said:

I'm not saying that people don't realize this, but if someone who might be a fan of Regina or SwanQueen or even SwanFire wants to post some thoughts, there are people here that feel the same way. Just clearly not in the majority.

I kind of know what you mean and I'm going to reference the Flash again. On those boards (the last time I checked), the people there seem to really love the character I absolutely hate and that character is the reason I stopped watching altogether. But if you say anything against them on those boards or on Tumblr/Twitter you get called horrible things and get dragged through the mud for all to see simply because you made a slight criticism. So, I'd say these boards are actually FAR more welcoming to dissenting views in comparison! But I know it can be tough to come in and say some opinions when you know not a lot of people there agree with you but I think that's a good thing to have on both sides so there can be a debate (hopefully without name calling!)

Edited May 17, 2018 by superloislane

[Mitch]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

A excellent succinct summary of the bait and switch the writers pulled between Season 1 and the rest of the Show.

Very succinct...the show started out as a nicer, gentler Twin Peaks with literary characters....and then became a giant marketing hour of power for Disney...(did every character have to be "Disney Brand" practically stamped on its forehead..)

I can't believe the net didn't step in to change things with the huge ratings drop.  The show should have always been a "limited" series. Cut out episodes like "Grumpy" from 1st season to make it shorter..the Curse is broken...pick it up for about 6 to 8 episodes a year later to show the after effects of the breaking of the curse..then pick it up a year or two later for either special movies or short terms episodes when they go on their "epic" adventures and truly make them epic.  I remember not minding Neverland except for them having to string things out and you got Ariel in their to pad..and the gang circling around potted plants for episodes on end. The show since Curse breaking isnt really ment to be a weekly series...there is just not enough to hold it up and not enough budget to do what they want to do..they pad and the mythology gets dumber and dumber (it takes a great Author to do that...) the rules get broken, the characters get shallower..etc.

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, CCTC said:

In some ways Henry got the Regina treatment, where we were supposed to think everything he did was great, even if it was sometimes the opposite of great.  In the long run, him always being right did not help the character, because he became annoying (he became a little judgmental) and was harder to relate to as a real person/adolescent.  

One of my least favorite scenes in the show is Henry attempting to blow up the well with dynamite, then chastising his three parents. (As if Neal and Emma didn't have valid complaints about Regina.) While Henry blaming magic was fit for his age, his brazenness should've been called out. I hate, hate, hate a preteen telling the adults what to do like he knows everything, especially when he's portrayed as in the right. That attitude never left him and it nearly got his family killed on more than one occasion.

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

A excellent succinct summary of the bait and switch the writers pulled between Season 1 and the rest of the Show.

And to think we thought it was a small town drama, LOL.

4 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

I quit the show after last season. I love Regina, but hated the split queen with every fiber. It was cheesy, silly, and if it gave me EQ fatigue, I can only imagine how those that don't like character felt.

I used to be a fan of Regina as well. S6 killed it for me. Her hypocrisy speech in 6x09 was the nail in the coffin for me. At the point, I knew she'd never truly change and that riding along her redemption arc was all for nothing. 

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Free said:

Not many people stuck around at all tbh from the looks of things, A&E managed to alienate lots of people, trying to reboot with most of the cast gone made it a whole lot easier to drop the show and that's what happened, they took their characters for granted when that's why most people stuck around to begin with.

A&E have managed to alienate every corner of the fandom and pretty much all shippers. Captain Swan had the world's dumbest break-up, followed by the most underwhelming wedding of the year. Snowing literally got put to sleep. Outlaw Queen got killed off out of nowhere. Rumple spent half of S6 shacking up with Clone Queen while his pregnant wife was standing outside the door. Now in S7, Captain Swan is out of the picture, Snowing is gone, Regina had a short fling with a guy nobody wanted to see her with, and Belle is dead. I bet fans were super happy to stick it out and tune in.

Edit: Didn't mean to double post. I thought it would merge automatically, but I was too late.

Edited May 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

19 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

One of my least favorite scenes in the show is Henry attempting to blow up the well with dynamite, then chastising his three parents. (As if Neal and Emma didn't have valid complaints about Regina.) While Henry blaming magic was fit for his age, his brazenness should've been called out. I hate, hate, hate a preteen telling the adults what to do like he knows everything, especially when he's portrayed as in the right. That attitude never left him and it nearly got his family killed on more than one occasion.

And to think we thought it was a small town drama, LOL.

I hate that too. Especially when the preteen is wrong but being portrayed as right. None of his three parents can yell at him or remember their a parent and he's the child? I doubt Regina would say it but why couldn't Emma and/or Neal talk to Henry when he was trying to blow up magic. Pointing out magic wasn't the problem villains used to for revenge or other reasons.  That might have been a good time for Neal and Henry to talk they both were raised by a parent who used magic to do bad things. Or Emma pointed out how magic helped them at times like to diamonds used to bring her and Snow home.  Its just like Henry's insistence that Heroes don't kill. Which is not only stupid but his book is full of heroes who did killed. The only difference is they didn't do it for the thrill, revenge or any of excuses Rumple, Regina and the other villains had. They did it save some or save their people. Why can't they talk to Henry like that? Ask if he really thought Snow or Charming wanted to fight against Regina? Of course not if he asked every hero he read about most would say no they didn't want to kill anyone but circumstances came up and they had to do the right thing. Taking a kingdom back from the Evil Queen who's murdered who knows how many people personally and had her army kill even more? Henry says stuff, he's wrong but no one will ever call him on it or parent him like he should be (and needs to be because he's still a child) because he's the self-insert. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by andromeda331

[daxx]

For me the worst Henry scene was in Going Home when he told Regina he wished he'd never gone to get Emma!

Like what!?!?

[Free]

Just now, daxx said:

For me the worst Henry scene was in Going Home when he told Regina he wished he'd never gone to get Emma!

Like what!?!?

Of course they would regret one of the few times they actually defied Regina.

[Camera One]

Adam posted his last scriptease ever.  And he didn't disappoint.  Just three words and it was already beyond annoying.

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Adam posted his last scriptease ever.  And he didn't disappoint.  Just three words and it was already beyond annoying.

And it's something Emma says to Regina. Why am I not surprised? Swan Queen baiting until the end.

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Uggggg that scriptease is so classic Adam. If thats what this whole finale is going to be, I will start throwing things. 

[KingOfHearts]

I have the complete quote here:

"So, Madame Mayor - ready to proclaim today Save the Fairies day?"

Oh wait. That was 4B.

[Rumsy4]

Plot twist: Emma was talking to Snow.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Plot twist: Emma was talking to Snow.

About how no one could be a Mayor like Regina and all they want is to have her back.

[tennisgurl]

54 minutes ago, Camera One said:

About how no one could be a Mayor like Regina and all they want is to have her back.

The whole finale is just everyone sitting around talking about how awesome Regina is. Thats it. 

For real though, it makes me sad that some people feel like they cant post here because they have a minority opinion. I might agree with what I think is the majority here, but I love hearing diverse opinions. It makes discussions fun and interesting, as long as everyone is polite and respectful. A bunch of people just sitting around agreeing with each other doesn't make for very interesting discussion. I really hope, in the weird little community we`ve built, that we can all feel happy here, and free to express our opinions. I might argue or debate, especially about Regina, and I might get rather passionate, but I dont want people to not post here because their opinions arent the majority. 

[KingOfHearts]

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

For real though, it makes me sad that some people feel like they cant post here because they have a minority opinion. I might agree with what I think is the majority here, but I love hearing diverse opinions. It makes discussions fun and interesting, as long as everyone is polite and respectful. A bunch of people just sitting around agreeing with each other doesn't make for very interesting discussion. I really hope, in the weird little community we`ve built, that we can all feel happy here, and free to express our opinions. I might argue or debate, especially about Regina, and I might get rather passionate, but I dont want people to not post here because their opinions arent the majority. 

When I used to be a Regina fan, I did kind of feel like the minority and wasn't sure how to present myself on the boards. Granted, the Regina hate used to be much worse back in S4 where emotions were still running high from all the crap that season had to offer. Nowadays, I'm not sure if my opinion just became homogenized with everybody else's from influence or I just like the character less. I have found that whenever I've posted something negative about Emma, Hook, or Captain Swan, there's rarely much response or discussion. But those are just my observations. From what I've seen on social media and heard about through you guys about sites like Tumblr, these boards are very tame. The people here are very mature and intellectual. It's never, "OMG CAPTAIN SWANZ FOREVERZ!!" While I'm not huge in CS, I do think they were written very well up until S6. I was never that into any of the ships on this show. Of all the couples, CS probably has the most of my interest, but that's not saying a lot to be frank. I'm mostly into the cast as an ensemble, rather than pairings or individuals. (Although Zelena is still my fav if only for Rebecca Mader's performance.)

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Nowadays, I'm not sure if my opinion just became homogenized with everybody else's from influence or I just like the character less. 

It's because your mind is controlled by a crystal that I've placed in the message board clock tower.  No one here knows they've been given Curse opinions.  I've designed it so there is no Savior.  Bwahwahahwahwahwahwah.  You won't be able to defeat me until 8:59pm this Friday.

[KAOS Agent]

I think that having a diverging opinion is going to provoke less of a response now because people are much more emotionally removed from the show.  Unless you hit someone's hot button by proclaiming your approval of giving Red Delicious apples to someone and calling them Honeycrisps. Then the apple brigade might bring out the pitchforks.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

It's because your mind is controlled by a crystal that I've placed in the message board clock tower.  No one here knows they've been given Curse opinions.  I've designed it so there is no Savior.  Bwahwahahwahwahwahwah.  You won't be able to defeat me until 8:59pm this Friday.

My Curse opinion is that Zelena is a whiny bitch and Regina has really matured in the past couple of seasons. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

My curse opinion is that Henry is the greatest, smartest, humblest, most heroic character on the show. His fountain hope speech moved me to tears and I will forever cherish it in my heart.

[InsertWordHere]

My curse opinion is that this show never disappointed me, never had a continuity or logic error, never confused me with its unending array of kingdoms and kingdoms within kingdoms, and never dropped characters I loved sometimes years before the actors actually left for others that were at best uninteresting and at worst insulting. 

My real opinion is that while it did commit all those sins, I still loved it. With a little more thought for the actual story and not the twists, and better show runners, this concept with this cast could have been something great. I’m going to miss it.

And I will miss these forums as I still miss their precursor at TWoP, but I will not miss the larger fandom, not even a little bit. Despite all the disappointment, I wish I could watch live tomorrow, just so I could discuss it with all of you. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

My Curse opinion is that Season 6 had the best written arcs of the entire series. And Golden Queen is my fav ship eva!! 

6 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

My real opinion is that while it did commit all those sins, I still loved it. With a little more thought for the actual story and not the twists, and better show runners, this concept with this cast could have been something great. I’m going to miss it.

The untapped potential of this Show coupled with predominantly excellent actors and the occasional brilliance in writing are what made it so hard to give up on, even at its most infuriating. 

It can be hard to be the minority opinion-holder in a discussion board. Even before the imdb boards closed down, I stopped posting there because it slanted heavily to Rumple and Regina fans who disliked Emma and/or Hook. Besides, there were some really immature posters and trolls there. I don't post my opinions on tumblr either. Either some anti-CS person might pick it up or one of the internal CS fandom police would. The hive-mind mentality is strong on tumblr, so I stick to flailing over gifs and fanworks there. I think in reaction, I tended to be a bit more cynical of the Show here. lol This board is the only reason I gave Season 7 a try, and I'm glad I did. I have enjoyed everything pertaining to WHook and Alice, and it has largely helped me forget the bad feelings Season 6 left me with. 

[asabovesobelow]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

And it's something Emma says to Regina. Why am I not surprised? Swan Queen baiting until the end.

I hate myself. I actually felt a tiny tickle of excitement when I read it. 

But seriously...ADAM, YOU DICK...talk about the canon stuff that will actually fulfill fans in the script tease. It's over, there's nothing left to bait for. 

[Writing Wrongs]

14 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I have the complete quote here:

"So, Madame Mayor - ready to proclaim today Save the Fairies day?"

No, I think it is:

"Wanna make this SwanQueen thing a reality?"

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I would have spent more time actually establishing the mythology, and what the rules are. When you have a fantasy story (or science fiction, or superhero, or whatever) you NEED to establish the rules of your universe, and explain why certain people have certain powers, what they can and cannot do, how this world functions on a day to day basis (government, religion, etc.) if its different than ours, things like that. As I mentioned above, you have to come up with a reason why people cant just get rid of the villain by turning them into a slug, if they have ability to do so, be it a personal thing (doesn't want to use powers for darkness) or practical (villain has spells against that kind of attack), and if you establish those, early on, its much easier to write the story, and get the audience to go along with it. When your in a story with fantastical elements, you have to sell the world to your audience, and it has to make sense, in the context of world already created, so the audience buys it when a character shoots lighting from their eyes or travels via magic carpet. As long as the rules make sense, the audience will usually buy pretty much anything. Plus, a rich world allowed for more interesting story opportunities, and ways to make your story more real, and your world more lived in. However, Once really sucks at all of that. All the stuff about Saviors and Authors and Guardians and Dark Ones and the billions of other useless chosen one jobs would have made WAY sense if they had actually explained what all of that was, and what that actually meant. Instead, they never rally did, so the audience could never really get invested. And the world itself is sadly underdeveloped. We dont know about the culture of the EF beyond being vaugly medieval European, its faith systems, how many magical creatures live their and how do they interact with the humans that live their? What are their foreign policies? How big of a planet is this? But, the show either didnt care, or realized that if they never explain how their magic worked, how their setting worked, or even how their universe functioned, they might actually have to put effort into their story, instead of just making stuff up to fit their latest shiny thing. And, what I really want to know, how does this freaking Author thing work?! 

I agree this was one of the A&E's biggest flaws, but I think it was intentional because of their laziness and lack of creativity.  Keeping the rules vague or non-existent allowed them to make stuff up and call them "twists".  Even in the final episode, they made up a bunch of new stuff about storybooks and Authors.  Wish Henry didn't even write all those "unhappy ending" books and yet somehow Wish Rumple got all those books to appear out of nothing and the Author's power was all based on Wish Henry's anger?

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Top 10 Wasted Opportunities of Once Upon a Time

There really needed to be more than 10, lol.

#10 - They complained about 4A not having more characters outside of Frozen, but I thought the Frozen characters were there just enough. They didn't overstay their welcome, but there was also time to flesh them out and let them breathe. (Even if Anna's grand tour of Misthaven was filler for most of it.)

#9 - I agree that Gideon was a waste, but I had no interest in seeing him be anything more than a plot device.

#8 - Totally agree that Hyde should've stayed around longer. He had a lot of charisma and potential for a character study. 

#7 - Again, not something I wanted to explore. I don't care about Henry's love interest. "While not awful by any means, their relationship just felt too safe and boring." Uh, no. Their relationship was the worst pairing this show ever produced other than Golden Queen. "Henry had arguably more chemistry with Drizella. Sure she was the evil stepsister, but that's what made her connection with Henry so interesting. Their romance could've put a fresh spin on a familiar tale, but we're stuck with yet another Cinderella Story" is right on target, though.

#6 - Nobody cares about Maleficent and Lily. It was, however, one of the show's more infamous dropped plots. Screw Zorro.

#5 - Rumple definitely should've died in S3 and came back for cameos in flashbacks.

#4 - This is easily one of my biggest pet peeves with the show. I hate how characters constantly disappeared without reason.

#3 - YES. SO MUCH THIS.

#2 - Hate the love triangle, but all three of those characters had tons of potential. Their stories were not given the proper conclusion. But yes, #GiveMulanAGirlfriend.

#1 - IMO, the Dark One Emma plot was not a good idea to begin with. If Emma acted truly evil, it would've soiled her as a hero and opened up a Pandora's Box of dragging heroes down to make Regina/Rumple look better or "The Dark One curse made me do it". Overall, it turned out to be very pointless because Emma didn't really change anyway.

The honorable mentions were super meh. Nobody wanted to see the Chernobog again. Ruby Slippers would still be dumb even if it weren't so rushed. 

 

I agree there were way more than 10.  If they wanted to choose 10, they should have looked at the core and underlying problems rather than throwing in random stuff of varying significance (which often amounted to "We needed to see more of _____").  Though I can't say I would expect much more out of a "Top 10 Random Stuff" Youtube channel.

#10 - On paper, I agree that there were characters we never got to see.  But I completely agree with you that the characters of Frozen got a happy medium in terms of screentime.  I feel like we got just enough of Elsa and Anna, and they did a good job tying them emotionally to the main characters.  Their suggestion to throw in Moana, Christopher Robin and whoever would have caused the Frozen characters to be just like those other characters they lamented as needing more screentime.  Did Goldilocks and the 3 Bears write this?

#9 - Who the hell cares about Gideon?  Why would we want to see him actually evil?  He wasn't even a fun villain.

#8 - I personally didn't find Mr. Hyde all that interesting.  He was okay but I had enough of him.  He might have been a decent love interest for Regina, but I didn't care enough either way.

#7 - Who the hell cares about Henry's love interest?  Adult Henry had so little personality and was so undefined it wouldn't be interesting if his love interest were Yzma,.

#6 - They spent enough time on Sad Sack Maleficent and Whiner Lily.  One more episode max, and good riddance.

#5 - I do agree with Rumplestiltskin should have stayed dead.  Though they could have resurrected him and not ruined his character, if they didn't insist on having the character act like a morality yoyo every half season and if they stopped using Belle to "redeem" him every 10 episodes.

#4 - I agree with the disappearing/instantly forgotten characters without a proper send-off as well.

#3 - Some more cameos from the Wonderland spinoff would have been fun, but only Will was ever scheduled to appear on the parent show, and given how they treated him (and how they had no further ideas for his character), there was no point in bringing him on.  All those characters had well-written arcs in the spinoff and I don't think this should have made the top 10 wasted opportunities.

#2 - I agree all 3 of these characters could/should have been explored further, but this actually applies to many characters beyond these 3 in particular.

#1 - I didn't need or want to see Dark Emma be evil.  She was not "petulant".  She was dealing with all those voices in her head and wrestling with her decision to make Hook the Dark One to save his life.  The actual problem was that the whole scheme to appear as Dark and Evil Swan made zero sense given what we found out later.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I didn't need or want to see Dark Emma be evil.  She was not "petulant".  She was dealing with all those voices in her head and wrestling with her decision to make Hook the Dark One to save his life.  The actual problem was that the whole scheme to appear as Dark and Evil Swan made zero sense given what we found out later.

It works in the Camelot flashbacks because it's about Emma fighting the darkness. There's real conflict that's in tune with her character. It falls apart in Storybrooke because it's all a fake-out and she doesn't really do anything. Being a villain and fighting against temptation are two different things.

Edited May 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

It falls apart in Storybrooke because it's all a fake-out and she doesn't really do anything. 

Yes.  At the end of the day, A&E basically wanted that fake-out.  

[KingOfHearts]

If someone starts watching Once Upon a Time, my warning to them will be: "You better freaking love Regina."

Other than "stop watching", how would you warn someone or your past self who is watching for the first time?

Edited May 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Other than "stop watching", how would you warn someone or your past self who is watching for the first time?

Don't hope it gets better.

[Rumsy4]

I would give myself a list of episodes to watch, with a warning to stick to the list, and throw in the names of my favorite fanfic writers as a bonus. 

[KAOS Agent]

I think maybe if I was to give good advice to myself, I'd say to watch S1 and then watch the initial few scenes in S2 and quit there while creating my own mental story about how things worked out. My biggest disappointment with the show (based on what initially caught my interest in the show) was the lack of development of the Emma/Snowing relationship because I loved the Emma/Snow relationship in S1 and was really excited to see how it would progress once the curse was broken. That Emma/Snow never had a single conversation alone that lasted longer than 30 seconds after episode 3.02 is a travesty.

[Kktjones]

I would definitely warn them that this show gets very plot heavy and never slows down enough for the characters to react and talk about the things that happen to them. Also there is a major lack of payoff to pretty much everything. As @KAOS Agent mentioned above, S2 was an extreme disappointment to many people (which was clear from the drop in ratings) in that there was no payoff to the broken curse. We were expecting to see how it impacted relationships between Emma/Snow, Snow/Charming, and Emma/Charming, and Emma dealing with the fact that Henry's other mother wasn't just a bitch, but was indeed an evil murderer, etc. None of that happened.

They also made it clear by about 3B which relationships they wanted to focus on. It was Emma/Regina, Snow/Regina, Emma/Hook, and Regina/Henry. Later we got more Emma/Charming - likely due to Ginny's reduced working schedule - but they decided to completely ignore Emma/Snow which was the backbone of S1.

[Camera One]

The Wrap interview:

Quote

“We felt like if in the finale, suddenly Mr. Toad appeared and he was the villain the audience would not be as interested or as engaged as really bringing it back home,” Horowitz added. “And that’s what it was about, which is really we wanted to see ‘full Rumple’ again.”

They joke, but how many times have they actually done that before, with the random villain suddenly being a big bad?

Quote

“I think that for us it’s always hard. Finales are the hardest,” Kitsis said. “And to us ‘Once’ always took a lot of time in its finales and its premieres. So we start thinking about that really really early. 

Their final products never give you the impression that they started thinking about it "really really early".

Quote

So for us we wanted it to be ‘effortless’ — and every time you try to do that it’s super hard. We probably went over that act six of the finale like 200 times before we got the one you saw.”

200 times and it still didn't make sense.  Good job.  

Quote

“Rumple’s death was what a happy ending looks like.

It's interesting how they spin a villain dying as their happy ending.  And to get that happy ending, they had to kill off Belle.  They had to completely ignore that they had a son who was still alive and whose feelings don't matter.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by Camera One

[Free]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

They joke, but how many times have they actually done that before, with the random villain suddenly being a big bad?

That's pretty much how it's been for the past few seasons though with a random villain suddenly becoming the big bad in each arc/season, not to mention it was a rushed wrap up since this wasn't a planned final season anyway, they only brought up Rumple as a villain at the last minute after wasting so much time on Tremaine/Drizella/Gothel/Coven/Candy Killer/Facilier all season long.

[Inquirer]

1 hour ago, Free said:

That's pretty much how it's been for the past few seasons though with a random villain suddenly becoming the big bad in each arc/season

That's true. 4B, 5A, Season 6 and Season 7 all had a problem in defining who its Big Bad was, it just seemed to keep changing. 

That's why I liked Hades in 5B - despite all of the other villains in that arc, there was never any question that he was the Big Bad from start to finish.

[Rumsy4]

I was rewatching parts of Tallahassee and I got to the scene where Emma jumps back down from the Beanstalk. Snow scolds her for asking Mulan to cut down the beanstalk if she wasn't back by ten hours and tells her they will go back together and they hug and I just teared up. Why, Show? Why??!! I felt like Charlton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes when he finally realizes that all hope is lost. 

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I was rewatching parts of Tallahassee and I got to the scene where Emma jumps back down from the Beanstalk. Snow scolds her for asking Mulan to cut down the beanstalk if she wasn't back by ten hours and tells her they will go back together and they hug and I just teared up. 

That's a good sign that one may still enjoy and be affected by earlier seasons and characters/relationships despite what this show became.  I think I would be very disappointed if I watched Season 1 or 2A again and they were no longer able to evoke the same emotions anymore. 

[Rumsy4]

I'm wondering if we should rewatch the series in reverse chronological order. lol