S04.E07: Fever Pitch

[CAT19]

Charles mentioned in the episode where Liza babysat and the episode where Liza and Josh go camping I believe that Pauline just up and left with another man and went to live in Napa, and that their daughters were confused and upset (paraphrasing) about it. I'm a mother (2 & 4 daughters), and forgive me if I'm assuming incorrectly if you are not, but most mothers do not abandon ther children. I don't think it is judgemental to call someone selfish for abandoning their responsibilities to young children they brought into the world because they felt lost. A lot of mothers do feel the same way Pauline does. I do! But you don't abandon your kids. You get some childcare and do some "self care," get back into your hobbies and social life, etc. 

 

And I don't mean "go off" as in yell, I mean a passionate disagreement and disapproval of what she did. Bonus points if it's in front of Charles. 

[luna1122]

I don't think we know enough at all about Pauline to know what kind of person she really is. I don't actually recall what Charles has said about her in the past...if anyone can refresh my memory, I'd appreciate it. But even then, that's Charles' side. I am interested in knowing hers and not vilifying her until I know more.  To say she's a selfish 'excuse' of a person seems really premature.

But she absolutely knew Millennial and Empirical were linked. So that's shady
 

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Charles mentioned in the episode where Liza babysat and the episode where Liza and Josh go camping I believe that Pauline just up and left with another man and went to live in Napa, and that their daughters were confused and upset (paraphrasing) about it  

 

Thanks for that reminder. It DOES seem like really impulsive, unkind behavior...but again, that's Charles' side, and I want to hear hers. Doesn't mean she's right or NOT selfish, I just don't feel like I have enough info yet to say that.

Edited August 11, 2017 by luna1122

[Bort]

30 minutes ago, CAT19 said:

Charles mentioned in the episode where Liza babysat and the episode where Liza and Josh go camping I believe that Pauline just up and left with another man and went to live in Napa, and that their daughters were confused and upset (paraphrasing) about it.

As another poster pointed out, we've only gotten Charles's side. Her living in Napa (which she may not anymore, as she's in NYC peddling her book) doesn't mean she and Charles don't still share custody.

[rho]

4 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but is it possible that Pauline didn't know that Millenial was an imprint of Empirical? It's relatively new, so I can see people not necessarily knowing which publishing house Millenial belongs to. But if I'm wrong and it's unlikely that she wouldn't have known, then yeah, that was a shady-ass move.

I thought she specifically said something about her book being a better fit at Empirical than Millennial before Liza cut her off to say it would make a good cautionary tale.

Even so, it's virtually impossible that Pauline didn't know Millennial was an imprint of her ex-husband's company. It seems to me they are setting her up to be the villain no matter what. If they wanted to set her up as a sympathetic character, she could have met Liza on any other occasion, rather than specifically seek out Charles' minions to pitch a book.

Edited August 11, 2017 by rho

[BabyVegas]

Ok, y'all have raised some good points and convinced me. I don't know about the custody thing, but bringing her book to Millenial was at least a little shady.

[CAT19]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

As another poster pointed out, we've only gotten Charles's side. Her living in Napa (which she may not anymore, as she's in NYC peddling her book) doesn't mean she and Charles don't still share custody.

Which Charles actually said to Liza. Liza replied, "Yeah, but she also left her kids, and that's intense." I don't care why she left her marriage, there are many valid reasons to leave a marriage. The only valid reason I see for abandoning your children is mental illness (having thoughts of harming them, etc.) I am getting the feeling I'm the only mother posting here, so try thinking of it from the kids' perspective. Imagine if your mom took a year vacation from you during your childhood. 

[MissEwa]

9 minutes ago, CAT19 said:

I am getting the feeling I'm the only mother posting here, so try thinking of it from the kids' perspective. 

I'm pretty sure you're not. I'm a parent and I don't think we know enough to say either way. We only know Charles' side - specifically, we only know what Charles told a woman he had a crush on. "went off to Napa with another man" could mean 'left our perfectly happy marriage with no notice to move cross-country and we haven't seen or heard from her since' or it could mean 'went off to Napa for a short vacation with another man after I'd been ignoring her needs for years and when she got back I used my family money to hire lawyers to make sure she'd never see the kids again - not that they know that part'. I don't think Charles is that big an asshole, but... we don't know. He seemed rattled by those pages. Maybe he is? 

I know several mothers who love their kids dearly who don't have custody of them because they left unhealthy relationships and their exes were assholes about it. I'm sure to hear their exes sides of it, those mothers are selfish and abandoned them and their kids but that's not the truth. You don't know. You never know. Really. Every relationship is so complex. But that aside, I'm a mother and it's a really tough gig and sometimes I'm actually surprised more women don't just get up one morning and think 'you know what? I can't do this any more.' 

I am pretty sure though that the show is painting Pauline as a villain so none of that is going to come into play. 

[CAT19]

Well based on what Pauline said in this episode it seems unlikely Charles is keeping her from her kids. 

 

I'm just not understanding the Pauline advocatism. Did people ask what David (Liza's ex) side of the story was, or just accept that he was a loser who gambled away their savings and cheated on her? What's his side of the story? No, no one sympathizes with David. 

 

We should mostly try to keep it to the show, but you are accepting what your mom friends have told you, which is only one side of the story. Why did the judge side with the fathers? 

 

And yes, being a mom is incredibly difficult, and I understand how Pauline felt, but not what she did. 

[dubbel zout]

Just now, CAT19 said:

Did people ask what David (Liza's ex) side of the story was, or just accept that he was a loser who gambled away their savings and cheated on her? What's his side of the story? No, no one sympathizes with David. 

Because we have a reason not to sympathize with him. He admitted to Liza he messed up and has apologized. I also think from a story POV, David was never going to be much of an obstacle, so we were given clear information about why he and Liza are no longer together. I'll be surprised if we see him in a major way again.

We haven't heard anything about Pauline except that she left NYC to live in Napa. Her saying she wanted to a vacation from the family isn't much to go on. We don't know if she's been in touch with her daughters or not. (Or do we?) Pauline is likely going to be an obstacle, so the circumstances of her relationship with Charles are going to be doled out more slowly.

[MissEwa]

6 minutes ago, CAT19 said:

Well based on what Pauline said in this episode it seems unlikely Charles is keeping her from her kids. 

 

I'm just not understanding the Pauline advocatism. Did people ask what David (Liza's ex) side of the story was, or just accept that he was a loser who gambled away their savings and cheated on her? What's his side of the story? No, no one sympathizes with David. 

 

We should mostly try to keep it to the show, but you are accepting what your mom friends have told you, which is only one side of the story. Why did the judge side with the fathers? 

 

And yes, being a mom is incredibly difficult, and I understand how Pauline felt, but not what she did. 

My point is that we don't know what she did. Not really. Nobody's advocating for Pauline actually being some sort of perfect person, just saying that the truth might not be as clear-cut as you seem to want it to be. She obviously feels like she has *some* justification for leaving, or else she wouldn't have written a book about it. I'm just saying... maybe wait to hear her out before deciding she's a selfish, terrible, unfit mother? 

(And I'm not getting into it obviously but you do know that the legal system, for those people who even have the resources to make use of it at all, isn't some sort of holy grail of rightness, yeah? Especially in anything remotely 'he-said-she-said' in nature?)

[CAT19]

I think we have to agree to disagree. To me, taking a year long vacation from your family is not acceptable. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but is it possible that Pauline didn't know that Millenial was an imprint of Empirical? It's relatively new, so I can see people not necessarily knowing which publishing house Millenial belongs to. But if I'm wrong and it's unlikely that she wouldn't have known, then yeah, that was a shady-ass move.

After she pitched her book, she specifically said to Liza, "I know Millennial skews younger. Would Empirical be a better fit?" That shady bitch knew exactly who she was pitching to and trying to get her manuscript on her ex-husband's desk.

As sneaky as that is, it makes me think she's seeking his attention, rather than revenge. I think she knows he won't be able to resist reading it and at best he will understand her better. At worst, he sues her to try to stop her book from being published which will get her some publicity and generate interest from other publishers. I think if she just wanted revenge by airing their dirty laundry, she would have avoided letting him know she was writing a book at all and either had it published elsewhere or maybe pitched it as an ongoing online series through a newspaper/magazine/website. Since she knows lots of people from her charity events and parties, she is probably well known enough that a NY publication would be interested in a socialite's exposé. 

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, CAT19 said:

I think we have to agree to disagree. To me, taking a year long vacation from your family is not acceptable. 

@CAT19, my hunch is that the show is going to spin things to look like from Pauline's perspective she had good reason to leave like that.  I get the feeling the "dirt" she is spilling in that book is pretty damaging to Charles and if true would put her behavior in another light altogether.  Which is why I'm not judging her at this point.  My theory all along has been that Charles isn't the boy scout he appears to be on the surface and might be responsible for some pretty bad stuff to make his wife want to run off like that.  From her perspective, of course.  We'll have to find out.

[CAT19]

Yeah, it will be interesting to see. I am thinking she regrets doing what she did and wants him back. She's going to explain things from her perspective and Charles will come off like a neglectful husband from her story. I don't think they are going to paint him too badly because I'm pretty confident they are going to keep him as a love interest for Liza. I think Charles probably wasn't the best husband to Pauline, but she was a difficult person to be with and they both are to blame. For me it still doesn't justify leaving her kids. And I say this as a mom who has suffered depression and been really low. I had to pull myself up for my kids, not leave them behind so I could fulfill all my desires. 

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, CAT19 said:

Yeah, it will be interesting to see. I am thinking she regrets doing what she did and wants him back. She's going to explain things from her perspective and Charles will come off like a neglectful husband from her story. I don't think they are going to paint him too badly because I'm pretty confident they are going to keep him as a love interest for Liza. I think Charles probably wasn't the best husband to Pauline, but she was a difficult person to be with and they both are to blame. For me it still doesn't justify leaving her kids. And I say this as a mom who has suffered depression and been really low. I had to pull myself up for my kids, not leave them behind so I could fulfill all my desires. 

Oh I'm with you on there being no really "good" reason to leave one's kids - I'm just thinking it wasn't a matter of her being completely selfish and running off with the mailman like we were originally lead to believe.  But to further "write the story" I think you're right that she regrets it and wants him back.  But I also think that when Liza finds out what he did to precipitate this she may question her interest in him somewhat and cool down a bit on him, which may end up in her running back to Josh a bit.  Or she may end up seeing Charles in secret AND run back to Josh a bit and then end up in a quandary about them.  I don't believe that the show is completely done with her and Josh.  I've been firmly on team Charles from day one but I'm not letting my feelings blind me from the way shows handle plots like this!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Outtakes:

[Eri]

Between the severed trust and the deal-breaker about kids, I'd like to think that Liza and Josh are over for good and well they should because it would take a lot to come back from that. I don't mind Charles but his status as her boss will never make me fully support them. Liza's window of opportunity passed when she left Empirical after Thad's funeral and he found her working in that retail store in New Jersey at the end of Season 1. She had nothing to lose by telling him her secret then and there and maybe by now things would have blown over and her work life would have stabilized but you know, there always has to be drama.

Perhaps by the end, I see Charles pulling an "Ugly Betty" and resigning as CEO to be with Liza. I don't think they'd be willing to risk an inter-office scandal if the book deal becomes a fiasco. Although if Charles does resign, that will give the show all of Season 5 to explore a relationship together.

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, CAT19 said:

I am thinking she regrets doing what she did and wants him back.

Pauline being a monkey wrench to Charles and Liza getting together is highly likely. 

10 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Oh I'm with you on there being no really "good" reason to leave one's kids

I think there are some, but I doubt any of them will be used here. I hope Pauline isn't demonized for it, whatever the reason turns out to be.

2 hours ago, Eri said:

if Charles does resign

They don't have to go that far. Liza could go work for another publisher (Jay is interested in her professionally as well as personally), and she and Charles could navigate working for rival houses. 

[Superpole2000]

On 8/9/2017 at 11:51 PM, HunterHunted said:

Kelsey has a type and Josh isn't that type.

Kelsey's type appears to be inappropriate boyfriends, whether it be clients, business partners, exes of good friends, twins, or whatever other goons these writers will pair her with. Can they just give her a normal-ish guy for once? But my bigger issue with this Josh/Kelsey plot is that it feels so unrealistic. Kelsey doesn't need to slum it with her friend's ex, and I think most women in that situation would have thought Josh was a creep for trying to hit the best friend double.

I also don't buy the Charles/Liza holdups. Why did they stop this time? Because of a janitor? Leave and go make out somewhere else...or just wait for the janitor to finish. This isn't difficult. If humanity reacted to sexual obstacles like these two have then none of us would exist because no one would have ever gotten together.

Also, Charles knowing the janitor's name is such a writer's invention and nothing like reality. Janitors try not to be noticed. But I get it...Charles is just such a great guy, with his 12 inch penis and first name relationships with the janitorial staff. I can't wait for the episode where he cures cancer the same day he adopts 4 puppies and 3 orphans....2 of whom are blind.

[Ailianna]

6 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

Also, Charles knowing the janitor's name is such a writer's invention and nothing like reality. Janitors try not to be noticed.

I work in a professional office, and not only do I know the names of our janitorial staff, most of the other people I work with do too.  And know them well enough to ask about new grand-kids and spousal health and so on.  I thought it was realistic that he was not such a snob that he couldn't deign to know the man who works to keep those offices so pretty.

[bilgistic]

On 8/10/2017 at 7:41 PM, rho said:

That's what I'm thinking too. Good on Charles for knowing the guy's actual name. Very commendable. But also, Janitor George probably isn't one of the 75 people employed by Empirical so at least we know that guy will still have a job despite the LL Moore debacle.

My soon-to-be-ex-boss wouldn't be able to pick our housekeeping staff out of a lineup, but that's because he's an elitist asshole.

[dubbel zout]

If you work late at an office often enough, you're going to get to know the after-hours staff.

[retrograde]

10 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

I also don't buy the Charles/Liza holdups. Why did they stop this time? Because of a janitor? Leave and go make out somewhere else...or just wait for the janitor to finish. This isn't difficult. If humanity reacted to sexual obstacles like these two have then none of us would exist because no one would have ever gotten together.

I agree in general, but I think in this case, I think it was the wife's manuscript that sucked the air out of the room. I got the impression they'd have resumed after a little while if that hadn't killed the mood.

Now, of course, Liza will learn something about Charles from the book and that will become the obstacle. 

[txhorns79]

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I work in a professional office, and not only do I know the names of our janitorial staff, most of the other people I work with do too.  And know them well enough to ask about new grand-kids and spousal health and so on.  I thought it was realistic that he was not such a snob that he couldn't deign to know the man who works to keep those offices so pretty.

I'm polite and friendly to the cleaning staff when I see them.  However, I know they aren't there to socialize with me, and my socializing with them takes them off their schedule.  It has nothing to do with being a snob or elitist.           

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I don't know about the custody thing, but bringing her book to Millennial was at least a little shady.

It's more than a little shady.  I presumed the entire thing was done with the idea of putting Charles on notice and getting him freaked out. 

Quote

Kelsey doesn't need to slum it with her friend's ex, and I think most women in that situation would have thought Josh was a creep for trying to hit the best friend double.

I feel like the entire Josh/Kelsey storyline is just badly thought out.  I don't think Kelsey would do that to Liza, and I don't think Josh would do that to Liza. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by txhorns79

[Atlanta]

27 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm polite and friendly to the cleaning staff when I see them.  However, I know they aren't there to socialize with me, and my socializing with them takes them off their schedule.  It has nothing to do with being a snob or elitist.           

It's more than a little shady.  I presumed the entire thing was done with the idea of putting Charles on notice and getting him freaked out. 

I feel like the entire Josh/Kelsey storyline is just badly thought out.  I don't think Kelsey would do that to Liza, and I don't think Josh would do that to Liza. 

I think your are my soulmate. 

[HunterHunted]

13 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

Kelsey's type appears to be inappropriate boyfriends, whether it be clients, business partners, exes of good friends, twins, or whatever other goons these writers will pair her with. Can they just give her a normal-ish guy for once?

Kelsey's type is stylish, arrogant, ambitious douchebags. Thad was a well-dressed douche and a cheater. Bjornborg was a well-dressed douche and a cheater. Colin was a douche and a user. Zane so far appears to be a very stylish douche and user. The show has given her normal-ish guys, normal-ish douchebros and douchebags. Thad was the bro-iest of all of her dudes. His twin Chad was never intended to be one of her romantic partners, which is the reason he was a complete cartoon. But I've met slight variations of the other dudes she's dated in my own life. Her propensity for douches is really normal too. Kelsey is right around the age that most young tend to learn how to stop dating douches.

[aradia22]

Who filmed that Liza/Charles makeout dream sequence? Those were... not good angles.

Also, do people in publishing really work this many late nights?

Well, that was weird. I thought it was going to be another dream but it wasn't but it got interrupted by a janitor and then his ex wife's book pitch? OK...