S07.E02: Stormborn

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I thought he knew that.  When he was Joffrey's Hand, he knew there was no money anywhere.  When did he say the Lannisters still had money?  

The Realm is bankrupt as well.  Although given that the Kingdom owed Tywin some serious cash (before he went bankrupt) I believe Tywin was hoping to be repaid (With the Bank of Bravo having taken over lending to the Kingdom).

He told Cersei.  He wouldn't bother telling Tyron given his plans for him.  I don't think he would tell Jaime until he agreed to be Lord of Casterly Rock.  And I don't think there weren't that many minutes after Jaime agreed that Tyrian blew up that plan.

[FnkyChkn34]

6 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

The Realm is bankrupt as well.  Although given that the Kingdom owed Tywin some serious cash (before he went bankrupt) I believe Tywin was hoping to be repaid (With the Bank of Bravo having taken over lending to the Kingdom).

He told Cersei.  He wouldn't bother telling Tyron given his plans for him.  I don't think he would tell Jaime until he agreed to be Lord of Casterly Rock.  And I don't think there weren't that many minutes after Jaime agreed that Tyrian blew up that plan.

Sorry, I think my use of pronouns was confusing.  I meant, when did Tyrion say that the Lannisters still had money? In last week's episode?

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Somehow, I don't think Davos would stick to that.  He's wanted her blood since he found out about Shireen.

1. Red Priestesses are protected by Mother Of Dragons.

2. Killing her would ruin any alliance and get Jon & Tyrion killed as well

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

And not a whole lot of family left. What's he got, his evil sister Cersei and his imp brother Tyrion, who is trying to take down his evil sister Cersei. All his children are dead. His father is dead. I'm sure there is some extended family somewhere but the core of his family is gone. All he's got left as a Lannister is Casterly Rock. And how humiliating if you lose your ancestral home. It would undermine Cersei's reign. "She can't even hold on to her family home, how is she going to protect us?" people will begin talking. No, it will not be a good loss for the Lannisters if Dany gets takes home. And further isolates Kings Landing. Didn't she mention surrounding them on all sides? This is part of that.

If Cersei cared what everyone said she would not have been in the incestous relation with her brother HA!  
Also, if Jaime is able to capture a more beneficial territory, it would still show Lannisters' strength despite losing CR.. 

I do agree those 2 Lannisters are way past being sentimental about family or ancestral home.  

Edited July 28, 2017 by DarkRaichu

[Couver]

Even if CR is broke (all we know is that the mines have run dry) I'm sure there is still a lot of value stored there. The Lannisters were the wealthiest and most powerful family in the seven kingdom for years. Who knows what is stored in their castle. It's also bad optics to have your houses' ancestral lands conquered. If Grey Worm is successful that's another loss of allies for Cersei since Dany would have all of CR's residents as prisoners (many of whom would be loyal to Cersei). Which in turn will make other allies and potential allies question allying with a Queen that just had her ancestral home sacked. It would also make the unsullied/Dany look very powerful since CR has apparently never been conquered. 

At least that is how I took Dany/Tyrion's reasoning. 

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Sorry, I think my use of pronouns was confusing.  I meant, when did Tyrion say that the Lannisters still had money? In last week's episode?

He didn't - I just don't think Tywin would have told Tyrion that the gold mines were depleted.  I was just making a lame  joke.  

[Star Aristille]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

1. Red Priestesses are protected by Mother Of Dragons.

2. Killing her would ruin any alliance and get Jon & Tyrion killed as well

1. Where was that said?
2. If number one is true, then there goes that.  At least it'll be fun possibly seeing and hearing him read her for filth again.

[paigow]

Dany: "The Red Priestesses helped bring peace to Meereen...You are always welcome."

[Katalina]

Quote

Dany gets less likable each season, I know we're supposed to be rooting for her, but at this point I just kinda wish Drogon would eat her.  

I'm actually more concerned with the dragons than with Dany. To me, Dany is the point around which the dragons, Tyrion, and Varys revolve, but she isn't inherently interesting to me.

I'm glad for that bracing little talk between Danaerys and Varys---it encapsulated so much of previous seasons, all the way back to season 1, that I'd forgotten.

Quote

Turning them into meat cuts that get put into a pie is just harder to believe. Somebody help me out with a scenario?

I wondered too. I'm the kind of show geek who has to make these details make sense. I figured she killed the sons, then removed a digit or two from each, and placed the digits in the pre-made pies. Much easier than, uh, “processing” two whole bodies.

As for Cersei calling Lady Olenna a traitor, has Cersei guessed that Lady Olenna played a big part in Joffrey's death?

How would a wight/white walker dragon work? Wouldn't it lose its ability to breathe out fire?

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Katalina said:

I wondered too. I'm the kind of show geek who has to make these details make sense. I figured she killed the sons, then removed a digit or two from each, and placed the digits in the pre-made pies. Much easier than, uh, “processing” two whole bodies.

I hadn't even thought about it, but now that I have, I'd go for cutting off the more fleshy bits - much easier to chop off and chop up. 

1 hour ago, Katalina said:

How would a wight/white walker dragon work? Wouldn't it lose its ability to breathe out fire?

I would think so. But maybe...it would gain the ability to breathe out ice/cold to aid the Night King?

[Colorado David]

giant crossbows are ineffective against moving targets, utterly stupid. dragons are way more evasive than any battleship. imagine a large stuka evading flack, a giant bolt is easily dodged. dragons can move, they aren't shiplike in the least.

[Macbeth]

I took Arya's showing up at Hot Pie's establishment as a hopeful sign.  She knew where he was and went there after having the good experience with the Lannister troops. 

Granted she did shut down when Hot Pie was asking for details in her life.   

I am afraid that Arya learned the wrong lesson from Nymeria.  "That's not you."  Meaning that Nymeria doesn't belong in Winterfell -therefore - Arya doesn't belong there either.  Not appreciating that Nymeria is with her pack.  I don't think Arya is heading for Winterfell.  I hope I am wrong.

[Katalina]

Quote

I'd go for cutting off the more fleshy bits - much easier to chop off and chop up. 

Yes, but not as identifiable! The shock value of the toe and toenail worked on me anyway....

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Katalina said:

Yes, but not as identifiable! The shock value of the toe and toenail worked on me anyway....

I must have wiped that image from my mind. But now that you mention it...

[enoughcats]

On 7/29/2017 at 8:26 AM, Katalina said:

Much easier than, uh, “processing” two whole bodies.

Rump roasts .

 

There's a song in the musical Sweeney Todd that could be said to be instructional.  "A little priest"

Edited July 30, 2017 by enoughcats
Sweeney Todd would like Arya.

[The Companion]

On 7/23/2017 at 9:22 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Okay. I get it. No eating during GOT.  Was I the only one cringing as Sam took way too long to skin that piece off of Jorah?  

 

I think this was the most grossed out I have ever been watching anything on television. I could barely look. There is a reason my brothers became doctors and I became a lawyer instead of going into the family business. I got legitimately queasy. Good job by the special effects/make-up department on that super nasty scene.

On 7/23/2017 at 9:28 PM, bluvelvet said:

 

That makes sense, Arya and Nymeria are mirrors of each other, they both had to run and have seen surviving in the wild. Would be interesting if Arya finds or feels that she does not belong in Winterfell...

I hope that the Starks are able to reconnect, but I don't see all of them living together in Winterfell  for the remainder of their lives. They are all grown up. However, I can only imagine it being a comfort to know that there are some other surviving family members, and I am anticipating a reunion way too much. Don't break my heart, show.

On 7/23/2017 at 9:37 PM, Daisy said:

And Gendry's still rowing that fecking boat. 

I was laughing when Theon was floating in the water that Gendry was just going to row by and ask for directions. I do think that Gendry's absence, if intentional, drives home the point that sometimes you don't reconnect immediately in such a disconnected world. Who knows where he ended up, if he survived at all. I did really like him as a character, so I hope we get a resolution. However, given the resolutions we have gotten for missing characters in the past, perhaps it is better to just assume he rowed to a port, found a nice job as a blacksmith, and started a family. 

On 7/23/2017 at 10:01 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Ah, in typical Game of Thrones fashion, they counter last episode's nudity-light episode with probably one of the more extensive nudity scenes in quite some time. Still, I guess it's nice that Grey Worm and Missandei to have one moment, since they clearly had feelings for one another and he's going off to try and take out Castley Rock.  Because he's totally going to die, right?

Loved the Varys and Daenerys scene.  I like that Daenerys remembers what he did and is understandably wary of him, but I think Varys was correct in what he said, and I do believe him in that as long as Dany truly wants to help the people, he will back her to the end.  I'm under no false impressions that he isn't a snake and out for himself, but I do think he has a code that he will follow, and he won't simply abandon her unless all over options have been exhumed.

Arya's changed her mind and actually is going to Winterfell?  Too bad she'll miss out on Jon, but hopefully she and Sansa will reunite.  And maybe she can shake Littlefinger for good measure.  And, holy crap, Nymeria?!!  Hot Pie?!!!

Because I am in denial that anything bad could happen to Missandei and Grey Worm, I am going to pretend that the scene set up a happy ending for them. We are reaching the end game, aren't we? 

I also loved Varys and Daenerys. It shows that she is thinking about those around her, rather than just following whoever shows up. We have seen a lot of blind trust. I also appreciated her point that she wanted Varys to approach her rather than scheming if she is not serving the people. It was another moment where you get to see that she doesn't just want to be in charge, she wants to make sure that what she is doing is actually helping people. 

I didn't realize how much I want to see Arya stare Littlefinger down until you said this. PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN.

On 7/23/2017 at 11:20 PM, Lady S. said:

Is there any reason Jon couldn't have told Sansa in private that he'd be leaving and she'd in charge so they could another public argument and she might even support him in front of the bannermen? Excited for the Jon/Tyrion reunion and Dany meeting her secret nephew, though.

I suspect it never occurred to him that she didn't know he would be leaving her in charge. Despite not telling him everything, Jon trusts Sansa and sees her her rightful place as a leader in Winterfell (even if she is not THE leader). I am not going to lie, I choked up a bit when he expressed his full faith in Sansa. It was a great moment, and one that felt like it was a long time coming. 

I also suspect that he didn't expect people to push back so hard on him leaving. Jon is very practical and he tends to get tunnel vision. This is a thing that needs to happen, so he is going to do it. Why would anyone disagree? Don't they know what is coming?

On 7/23/2017 at 11:35 PM, TrininisaScorp said:

It was lovely to see Hot Pie, and I loved Maise's face when she heard Jon was at Winterfell. 

That was some masterful acting from Masie Williams, wasn't it? The look on her face when she found out Jon was alive and Winterfell was no longer in the hands of the Boltons was amazing. We haven't gotten to see people get news a lot in this show. It seems like everyone just sort of knows everything and they learned it all offscreen. It thought it was really amazing to see this moment. I also thought it made sense that she wouldn't necessarily have heard about the Boltons. It isn't like she has been hanging out chatting (except for the soldiers last week).

 

On 7/24/2017 at 10:17 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Remember that Sansa and Tyrion were forced to wed.  He was in love with another woman and was at best civil to Sansa.   Jon kept saying to Sansa that "you know him", when she really didn't. All she could say was that he was the nicest Lannister! 

Of all of her husbands and finances, he was definitely the kindest. That's not saying much, though. I think that Sansa and Tyrion bonded by the end, but it has been years and she has certainly changed in the interim, so I agree that her knowledge is stale at best. 

On 7/24/2017 at 11:54 AM, Luckylyn said:

It occurs to me in this episode that Littlefinger understands Cersei and King's Landing but that he doesn't get the North as well as he thinks he does.   Whenever there's a meeting of Jon and the Northern Houses, Little Finger doesn't sit with the other lords.  He's always off against the wall standing apart from them.   He's fixated on the idea that Sansa is the key to gaining leadership in the North but that hasn't been shown.  When Littlefinger lied to the other Lords and spread the false rumor that Ramsey kidnapped Sansa from him, the Lords didn't rally around Littlefinger to rescue her.   There was so much bitterness because of Ned and Robb's mistakes, and Sansa was being judged as if she willingly married Tyrion and Ramsey instead of them feeling sympathy towards her for being forced to marry the enemy.  Sansa's public support of Jon prior to the Battle of the Bastards did not get them the Northern support they needed.  Littlefinger was convinced that Jon was beneath his notice because Jon was a bastard and assumed the Northern lords would reject Jon.  Yet Jon was named King.   Littlefinger helped save the day in the Battle of the Bastards and yet the Northern Lords don't seem to notice him in a heroic light.  Jon was the one who they turned to for leadership.  He overestimated Sansa's value and underestimated the North's willingness to support Jon.  So Littlefinger has a record of getting it wrong when it comes to the North. 

I suspect that if Littlefinger succeeded in getting Sansa to marry him that it wouldn't be the automatic path to being King he thinks.  I suspect instead of elevating him it would bring her down.  The Northern lords don't trust him, and he is not someone they would rally around to support.  Anyone who married him would end up being viewed as tainted.  So I think his smug belief that Jon leaving Sansa in charge means he has an advantage is going to get proven wrong.  Sansa is, I hope, not going to be easy to manipulate. I hope she is able to hold the Northern Lords together and show publicly that she has value.  The Northern Lords don't know she was the one who called in Littlefinger's soldiers to help win the Battle of the Bastards.   Jon's departure and trust in Sansa is giving her a chance to come into her own power and get acknowledgement from the other lords. 

I think that is both a great observation and something we have seen over and over in this show. Tyrion misread the masters, Sansa had no idea how to deal with King's Landing, etc. The strongest alliance is one in which each person is able to offer their knowledge, which is why Sansa and Jon work well together, and why an alliance with Daenarys is so intriguing. 

On 7/24/2017 at 1:02 PM, Absurda said:

Re: Jon and Sansa. I loved seeing the three of them (Jon, Sansa and Davos) discussing privately among the three of them the raven from Tyrion. I thought they were on the right communication track but then he goes and tells all his bannermen he's leaving w/o discussing with Sansa ahead of time. Dick move, Jon. I do like that he put her in charge of the north. That really seemed to shut her up, was I imagining it or was that an "oh shit" look on her face when he said that? It's one thing to tell someone how to lead, it's quite another to be the leader.

I thought, at first, he'd be better off sending Sansa as an emissary, but I don't think he's the kind of guy who would risk her life and safety in that way. If anything, I think it's more dangerous for her since Cersei has it out for her.

I agree. I have trouble imagining Jon sending his sister, who is just now home and relatively safe, into the world and into a potentially dangerous situation. He may be going to his death, and he can accept that risk for himself, but he would never send his sister to her death if he could help it. I like that they are still feeling each other out. It has been years and they are both very different people than they were in Season One. I really hope they aren't moving to a showdown between Sansa and Jon thanks to Littlefinger. I am enjoying watching them build something instead.

On 7/24/2017 at 1:34 PM, Keepitmoving said:

Also, wasn't there a flashback or a childhood memory of Cersie's where she remembers some prophecy about losing all three of her children (check) and that a woman younger and more beautiful than her would take her throne?  This episode was before she killed Olena's granddaughter and that entire religious posse, I forget what they were called.  But I remember thinking that Cersie probably thinks that she's the beautiful young woman that the prophecy was referring to since she had managed to win the heart of not just one but two of Cersie's sons. But the prophecy was really referring to Danny. 

As I recall, the prophesy said she would be queen for a little while before she was replaced by a younger woman, which definitely checks out. I also feel like it is building to Dany being the one to take her out, but this show has certainly surprised me more than once. I don't care as long as her terrible smirking face gets off my screen. I don't even love to hate Cersei.

On 7/25/2017 at 1:00 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

I'm fine with Jon and Dany. It makes for the most obvious political match. I think there is a resistance to having the two main characters get together because maybe It would be too cliche or obvious. Or people may simply not like one of the two(usually Dany). I guess I just don't see what the problem is. But I'm also not one of those people who believes GRRM set out to simply bust every trope known to fantasy and avoid things just because they were too obvious. He's more likely to do the obvious(Jon/Dany pairing) and have it end tragically. 

It is a good political match, but I would far prefer to see a political match that isn't a marriage. First of all, marriage as a political tool hasn't really worked out yet for the younger generation. We have seen plenty of marriages intended to unite families that have ended in death and destruction. I would find a new way of creating alliances to be far more interesting, from a show perspective. 

On 7/25/2017 at 6:28 AM, kieyra said:

The show has been writing him (and not very subtly) as a loathesome weasel for a few seasons now. At this point he's just cartoonishly oozing around Winterfell and leering at Sansa and getting knocked back for his completely obvious manipulation attempts. So I assume he's going to pull off one last betrayal and then die for it. In the meantime the writers are ham-fistedly reminding us he's a scheming perv.

Oozing is such a good word for it. He showed up on screen at some point recently and I said he makes you feel dirty, like you put your hand in slime. I do think he made a big mistake with Sansa. She might have followed him, had he not left her to be violated and tortured. 

On 7/25/2017 at 0:34 PM, Keepitmoving said:

You know what I can't buy? How long it's taking for someone at The Wall to send a raven to Winterfell to tell Jon that his brother is alive. Winterfell is getting ravens left and right, yet not one telling them that Bran is alive?

 

The Night Watch has no Maester, who seems to be responsible for posting Ravens. Maybe there is some sort of expertise you learn at the Citadel? Also, they are expecting enemies any day now, and may want to save their Ravens for an emergency. They haven't given us a good explanation, but there could be one on the cutting room floor.

On 7/26/2017 at 0:16 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think Littlefinger just had a youthful crush.  He was madly in love with Catelyn to the point that he's never loved anyone else.  He's the Severus Snape of Game of Thrones.

I was making the same comparison the other day. I suspect that we would see a lot of bullying in Littlefinger's past (which has been alluded to), and that his manipulations started as ways to either get revenge or protect him. That being said, I just can't. His love for mother and daughter is as gross and twisted as Cersei's is for her kids and brother. If he truly loved Cat, he would have served her like Sir Friendzone. Supported her, loved her from afar, given her what she needed when asked. He certainly wouldn't have proposed to her over her husband's bones. 

On 7/27/2017 at 6:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Poor Hotpie! He was so excited to see Arya again but her reaction to seeing him was (1) gimme dem pies (2) are you lying about my brother? (3) kthxbye.

I loved that scene. Hot Pie is still so Hot Pie. Surprisingly enthusiastic and oblivious while Arya chomps down on pies and sucks down ale like the Hound. I hope that he stays quietly in the background making pies. As with Sam, it is nice to have some unambitious characters doing what they love.