"Tell Me Something I Don't Know": Trivia & Fact Thread

[ABay]

There's no genetic reason for first cousins not to marry. It's only if additional generations also marry first cousins that problems arise. I'm not sure why it developed a squick factor relatively recently. My feeling is that if it was good enough for Albert Einstein it's good enough for lesser mortals.

[Blergh]

FWIW, on September 13,1899, a Mr. Henry Hale Bliss made history in New York City by stepping off an electric streetcar before being hit by an electric motorcar becoming  very first confirmed car fatality in the US.

[jennifer6973]

I learned this weekend that Monaco is not an island, but a little sliver of land near France.  I always just thought it was.

[annzeepark914]

2 hours ago, jennifer6973 said:

I learned this weekend that Monaco is not an island, but a little sliver of land near France.  I always just thought it was.

Monaco acts as though it's an island.

 

[jennifer6973]

11 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Monaco acts as though it's an island.

 

What totally prompted all this was, I was wondering if it was feasible to attend the Monaco Grand Prix, the Indianapolis 500 and the Coca Cola 600 all in the same day.

I figured it would be hard to get off the island and get to an airport, so I looked it up.

[Blergh]

Actually, Monaco is the 2nd smallest independent sovereign nation in land mass with just over 3/4 of a square mile of land. Essentially, it hugs the French Riviera coastline just ten miles from the Italian frontier but for a such a tiny coastal domain, it's surprisingly steep and hilly up to a 539 foot elevation. Of course, it's on the slope of a 3,700 foot tall French seaside mountain called Mt. Agel which is technically an Alp!

You can't fly directly to Monaco but it's only 8 miles from Nice, France which does have an international airport. BTW,  while it IS nice to have an international airport so close to the tiny nation of Monaco, that's not why that French city is called that. It's pronounced 'niece' (as in female nephew) and is named for the Greek goddess of victory Nike after Greek colonists in the area defeated a local tribe.  Monaco itself originally meant 'single house' because supposedly there was a temple (or house) dedicated to Hercules with the understanding no other house could be built in the area- though no archeological confirmation of one has been found so far.

[Blergh]

Geneva, Switzerland has been a prominent trading center from even before the area's inclusion in the Roman Empire!  Not only has it hugged the north and south shores of the  western extreme gigantic Alpine lake called Geneva (or Leman) but it sits at its outlet which is the Rhone River that is one of the largest rivers to flow into the Mediterranean Sea. Oh, and just yards/meters from the start of this outlet is a couple of small islands which have been easily bridged for ages- making it the perfect spot to regulate commerce on the edge of the Alps. It's had an incredible history with everyone from  the Protestant reformer John Calvin to the tragic Austro-Hungarian Empress Elisabeth ('Sisi') meeting their ends there and, for over 200 years it was the capital of a completely independent republic composed of five unconnected territories. It became the 25th canton to joint the Swiss Confederation in 1815 and is still officially called The Republic and Canton of Geneva!

[annzeepark914]

Re: Monaco info', that mountain is part of the Maritime Alps. And if you're flying into Nice for the first time, just know that the landing strip is on a peninsula of sorts. Even though you might think your plane is heading for the water...it's not. I've always been a white knuckle flyer & was sitting on the right side so all I saw was water, no terra firma 🙀.

[Blergh]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:37 AM, annzeepark914 said:

Re: Monaco info', that mountain is part of the Maritime Alps. And if you're flying into Nice for the first time, just know that the landing strip is on a peninsula of sorts. Even though you might think your plane is heading for the water...it's not. I've always been a white knuckle flyer & was sitting on the right side so all I saw was water, no terra firma 🙀.

If you don't think Nice has the nicest airport, try flying into Gibraltar! The airport is on the one flat part of the peninsula- and sitting  right smack on the Spanish Frontier. But since the peninsula is so narrow, they had to build the runway 'wings' right over the water but it's a tricky landing because it's between the more gradual hills of the Spanish Mainland and the Rock itself! Thus, the planes make rather steep dives/climbs  when approaching/leaving the airport THEN land directly onto the runway 'wings' AND turn at the edge of one runway which looks as though one's completely surrounded by water before the plane is able to brake enough to safely taxi to the Airport! Now, the good news is that because only maybe ten flights arrive/depart from Gibraltar each day, once inside the Airport, Customs officials are usually somewhat less tense than other International Terminals (e.g. JFK, London, Singapore,etc.) and, if everything checks out, one gets that really cool Gibraltar stamp on the passport!

Until just the last year (or so), one  had to walk down the only road linking the Airport with the rest of Gibraltar (Winston Churchill Highway[!]) which crossed directly onto the Airport runway!  Oh, they'd make a gigantic production of shutting off all vehicular and pedestrian traffic with NO ONE lingering on the runway until the plane had arrived then (usually) departed about ten minutes later! Thankfully, they've just completed a vehicular tunnel BENEATH the runway  but the old road has been converted to a bicycle-pedestrian pathway which STILL must abide by the road closure during the planes' arrival.

Of course, once you've cleared the airport, one either take a look back at the Airport and see the Spanish Border Crossing with British and Spanish flags flying on opposite sides of the fence AND immediately across the Spanish border in the  town of La Linea is a McDonald's! Yep, if you go to Gibraltar and  having a Mac attack that overwhelms any desire for British fish n' chips (or other cuisines), you'll have no choice but to hike over to the Border Crossing and get your passport stamped at La Linea then, after your meal, cross BACK over and get another Gibraltar stamp!  Now, if you want to continue on to Gibraltar itself, you can't help but notice that the Rock's most famous and steepest cliffside angle is best seen going due south from the Spanish Frontier! Oh, and it's by NO means solid but riddled with natural and man-made caves and tunnels- the latter dating back for quite a few centuries (with the tunnels actually having more milage than than the surface roads). However, that Rock juts almost 1400 feet and was one of the Pillars of Hercules (the other being Jebel Musa on the Moroccan coast on the other side of the Strait) which the Ancient Greeks considered to be the Edge of the World (and the Spanish would render the two mountains on each side of their nation's coat of arms with the words 'plus ultra'- meaning territories beyond the Strait). Oh, and Gibraltar has been a magnet for millennia as in some of the  Rock's sea caves have yielded evidence of Neanderthals living there from as far back as 40,000 B.C. ! Lastly, while some wanted to believe that the Barbary Apes (the only semi-wild primate population in Europe) came to Gibraltar from Africa via caves, it's more likely that they were imported by the Moorish officials imported them in the Middle Ages.

 OK, I guess what I'm trying to say that if one gets the chance, there's all kinds of fascinating things to see and do in Gibraltar but the flights arriving/departing are definitely adventuresome!

Edited June 16, 2023 by Blergh

[Blergh]

OK, I mentioned in the post above that the representation of the Rock of Gibraltar and the mountain on the other side of the Strait [Jebel Musa in Morocco]  as the Pillars of Hercules were used on the coat of arms for Spain. OK, this actually has a link to US currency! After the former British North American 13 Mainland Colonies (south of present-day Canada) won their independence, there was no standard currency and, in fact, would use coinages of many European nations (Great Britain, France, Spain,etc) more or less for barter. Anyway, bookkeepers would list the different currencies in ledgers and the abbreviation for multiples of the Spanish currency being the Pillars (with two lines  somewhat like'  l l ' being depicted) over an 'S' to depict multiples of the currency. Before too long, it got garbled with the lines drawn OVER the ' l l' lines and THAT is how the symbol for US currency came to be (which eventually got abbreviated further as $). Oh, and the name Dollar is derived from the name of coinage used in the Holy Roman Empire and several German territories called the 'thaler' (pronounced 'TAH-lerr')  that also became the term for 'pieces of eight' coins in Spain called 'dolar' (DOUGH-lar') .  Interestingly they got called 'pieces of eight' because one could divide the coins into eight pie wedge parts to pay smaller bills- and that's where the term 'two bits' came from because  smaller debts would be paid off a quarter portion of the coins! 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Blergh

[Leeds]

According to Forbes, 70% of dog owners include their pet's name on their holiday cards.

[annzeepark914]

1 hour ago, Leeds said:

According to Forbes, 70% of dog owners include their pet's name on their holiday cards.

Well, of course, I include 😺 Zoe's name--she's family!

[Blergh]

Among other still unsolved mysteries from before the start of written records in Australia is that no one is  sure who might have brought them or for what purposes but sometime before 1400 BC dingoes were brought to the continent of Australia.  If they had ever  been intended for hunting dogs or pets by the Indigenous Australians (who themselves had arrived on the continent no later than 50,000 BC), they quickly proved too independent  to remain/become domesticated and almost immediately proved to be fierce competitors for game.

 

Currently, there are strict laws in Australia prohibiting dingoes as pets AND to allow them be bred with  domesticated canines whose own ancestors didn't arrive any earlier than 1788 AD when the first British colony was established!

 

[JTMacc99]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:42 AM, Leeds said:

According to Forbes, 70% of dog owners include their pet's name on their holiday cards.

According to me, 70% of holiday card recipients care more about how the dog is doing than the people. 

[DrSpaceman73]

58 minutes ago, JTMacc99 said:

According to me, 70% of holiday card recipients care more about how the dog is doing than the people. 

I know I do.  

I always wave and say hi to dogs when going for a walk.  My neighbors....ehhh

[Laura Holt]

I've been binging on Nero Wolfe mysteries lately and one thing I noticed was that in almost every book there is the assumption that once the murderer is caught and convicted he (or she) will be executed.  These are books written primarily in the 30s-50s and set in the US.  Would it have been that automatic that a convicted killer would face execution?  

[Mabinogia]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:29 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

I always wave and say hi to dogs when going for a walk.  My neighbors....ehhh

I can name all but 1 dog in my neighborhood (the one I don't know is new so I haven't had the time yet). I can name 3 humans in my neighborhood. Most of them I know of as Willie's mommy, Sid's daddy, etc. 

[ABay]

@Laura Holt, it would depend on the state in which the person was convicted. It could be that all 50 had the death penalty at the time although they don't all have it now.

Edited July 8, 2023 by ABay

[Leeds]

In the ultimate irony, crows are using metal spikes intended as bird deterrents to build nests.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jul/11/crows-and-magpies-show-their-metal-by-using-anti-bird-spikes-to-build-nests

(Note there is also a reference in the article to homosexual necrophilia among ducks.  I love trivia.)

[EtheltoTillie]

On 7/1/2023 at 9:02 PM, Blergh said:

Among other still unsolved mysteries from before the start of written records in Australia is that no one is  sure who might have brought them or for what purposes but sometime before 1400 BC dingoes were brought to the continent of Australia.  If they had ever  been intended for hunting dogs or pets by the Indigenous Australians (who themselves had arrived on the continent no later than 50,000 BC), they quickly proved too independent  to remain/become domesticated and almost immediately proved to be fierce competitors for game.

 

Currently, there are strict laws in Australia prohibiting dingoes as pets AND to allow them be bred with  domesticated canines whose own ancestors didn't arrive any earlier than 1788 AD when the first British colony was established!

 

This is interesting.  I got an Australian Cattle Dog from a rescue (in the US) in 1991.  I had never heard of the breed, but she was a great dog (blue heeler color, probably a mix), a real comedian and so intelligent.  At the time, it was said that the cattle dogs were bred from a mix of dingoes and collies, but that looks to have been a myth now that I read some more about them. 

[Blergh]

Archaeologists have found traces of cacao  residue in ceremonial vessels and even macaw feathers in the large Native American complex of Chaco Canyon, New Mexico. Yes, this means that these Native Americans living in a rather remote desert hub had trade and communication with Native Americans living in tropical rain forest regions of what's now Mexico and Central America despite having no known written languages and being in very different spoken language families!

Yet, even as we are finding out how much more advanced Native American cultures were in what's now the United States than was previously believed, one has to wonder what possible commodities Chaco Canyon citizens may have traded/bartered to the traders  bringing these exotic goods to have made the journeys  worth the risks and hardships!

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

Archaeologists have found traces of cacao  residue in ceremonial vessels and even macaw feathers in the large Native American complex of Chaco Canyon, New Mexico. Yes, this means that these Native Americans living in a rather remote desert hub had trade and communication with Native Americans living in tropical rain forest regions of what's now Mexico and Central America despite having no known written languages and being in very different spoken language families!

Yet, even as we are finding out how much more advanced Native American cultures were in what's now the United States than was previously believed, one has to wonder what possible commodities Chaco Canyon citizens may have traded/bartered to the traders  bringing these exotic goods to have made the journeys  worth the risks and hardships!

Probably turquoise stuff

Things never change. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[Blergh]

The River Jordan's main course starts with the outflow of the Sea of Galilee at 705 feet (215 meters) BELOW sea level- the lowest  elevation of any freshwater lake in the world before discharging into the Dead Sea at 1410 feet(430 meters) below sea level- the lowest elevation of any saltwater lake and of any exposed surface on Earth!

Yes, in addition to its Biblical, historic, strategic and ecological importance, the River Jordan not only has the lowest elevation of any river in the world but also is the only river with its entire main course hundreds of feet  (and meters) below sea level!

[Blergh]

The Yellowstone National Park was established in 1872- the first land set aside by a government for the express purpose of preserving the unique natural landscape for future generations to enjoy. Not only does Yellowstone have more geysers than any single nation (including Iceland or New Zealand) but it has about HALF of the entire world's geysers. Oh, and thanks to hunting being forbidden within the park's boundaries, 40 American bison (buffalo) were  spared the slaughter of millions of their brethren during the 19th century- the ONLY members of the species to do so. Yes, ALL living  American bison (buffaloes) are direct descendants of the Yellowstone survivors!

Of course, the reason WHY it has so many geysers and hot springs in its territory is due to the fact that sits on a supervolcano that has burst forth every quarter million years with the last eruption having taken place. . . .about 250,000 years ago.

[Ancaster]

Sea stars (the artists formerly known as star fish) don't have five arms as generally believed - their "arms" are part of their brain.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/01/starfish-arms-are-actually-extensions-of-their-head-scientists-say

 

[Blergh]

One of the most intriguing sites of the Pacific Ocean has to be the still mysterious temple-city complex of Nan Madol in Micronesia which consists of at least 92 artificial rock&coral  islets with basalt buildings constructed directly on top of them with canals running between them. Archeologists believe they were constructed between the 8th and 12 centuries with several districts within exclusively for nobles and priests. It is also believed that food and water had to be imported from elsewhere to support the populace from the beginning. How they constructed many of these massive basalt buildings much less why remains somewhat of a mystery to say nothing of why the complex abandoned in the middle of the 17th century but the modern nation of Micronesia has designated the remains as  a National Historic Landmark!

[jenh526]

I started reading a nursing forum during the start of the pandemic and never stopped because I learn so much there. Yesterday I learned there is a phenomenon called a uterine window, which happens when a scar from a previous c-section is stretched so thin you can actually see the baby through it. From my understanding this is a dangerous condition that can precipitate a uterine rupture, which is a medical emergency.

[Blergh]

Sitting on a tall sea cliff outside the northwestern Spanish port city of La Coruna/A Coruna is the Tower of Hercules (formerly known as Farum Brigantium], the world's oldest extant lighthouse at 130 feet tall which guides ships to this day!

As impressive as it is currently, what's even more amazing is that it's been in operation  starting since at least the 100's AD when the Roman Emperor Trajan (born near present-day Seville) commissioned an architect to either build or rebuild the edifice to be modeled on the Lighthouse of Alexandria (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World) . While the inner stairwell is definitely Roman in origin with later exterior walls and the upper part of the tower being built in more recent centuries, it's possible that this may be even older  than the Romans. La Coruna/A Coruna harbor happens to be the closest port geographically via point to point from the Iberian Pen insula and the lighthouse points in the direction of current Great Britain. Why this is vital is due to the fact that its southwestern pen insula Cornwall had been the main supplier of  tin since at least 1500 BC. Tin being the vital component of the metal  compound called bronze ! Yes, Emperor Trajan wanted to establish/re-establish a beacon to safeguard the port linking Iberian and the rest of the Roman Empire to its vital supply link!

Oh, and it's called the Tower of Hercules due to the its legendary foundation which, as per this legend, a local giant tyrant Geryon was finally defeated by none other than Herc himself after a three day battle. After which Hercules ordered the locals to bury the tyrants skull under the seaside cliff then build a lighthouse atop it. Regardless of the validity of this myth, the coat of arms for La Coruna/A Coruna consists of the lighthouse itself  atop a rock sealing a giant crowned skull with crossbones- all flanked with scallop shells!

[Lugal]

Rhotic or R-colored vowels (like in dollar) are exceedingly uncommon and only appear in less than 1% of the world's languages.  However two languages they do appear in are North American English and Mandarin Chinese, two languages with some of the highest number of speakers on the planet!

[Blergh]

Michael Rockefeller, the 23-year-old son of the extremely wealthy and powerful Rockefeller family was last seen attempting to swim  about 14 miles to  shore  of what now the Indonesian half of the island of New Guinea  in 1961 after his dugout canoe capsized with several others. He had expressed great interest in the local Asmat tribe previous to this. Despite extensive searches armed with large sums of monies and resources from his family, no trace of him was ever found and he is believed to have most likely drowned. There were secondhand accounts of him possibly been cannibalized due to the tribe wanting to 'even' out occupying Dutch soldiers having killed a few of their members and him being considered a member of the 'European' tribe.

However, one odd footnote must be considered. In recent years, a documentary film  from 1969 has been unearthed of hundreds of Asmat tribesmen standing and waving their spears in virtual unison while rowing past the camera operator . Among the Asmat standing was a single bearded, blond man of European extraction who was unclothed like the others  but definitely not having been born into the tribe. While it may be tempting to speculate that this one blond, bearded man may have been Michael Rockeller (and there does seem to be at least a passing resemblance), there's no proof that this unidentified man was he. However, even if this possibly adopted European Asmat man had not  been young Mr. Rockefeller, this leads to the questions of who WAS this individual, where did he come from, how did he join the tribe and what became of him?

[Blergh]

While traditional history has maintained that the Azores Islands were first settled by the Portuguese in the early 1430's,    genetic testing was done on the local mouse population and discovered that not only had they not been native to the nine Atlantic Ocean islands but that they were descended from Scandinavian instead of Iberian mice!

 Further scientific studies of the soil core samples revealed that there had been a period of grain growing and either sheep or cattle ranching  on the islands between roughly 700 and 850AD.  As best as science currently can make out, the Scandinavian mice stowed away on ships to these temporary outposts  which seemed to have been abandoned - and any remaining cows or sheep dying out as well as any imported grain grasses getting overwhelmed by the native species. However, these mice somehow survived on the native plants,etc.  and would attract a species of raptor birds to the islands known as Eurasian goshawk known as Acor [the facade 'c' being used] (or Azor) in Portuguese which is what they'd name the archipelago for.

There are some  structures, carvings and stone anchors,etc.  of unconfirmed antiquity that some believe point to possible Roman, Greek or Phoenician settlement or visitation but  these claims are  in dispute and, at this time, only the Scandinavian mice are confirmation of pre-Portuguese settlement or visitation.

[Blergh]

While cacao had been a staple in Mexico and Central America for many centuries before the Europeans first encountered it, when the Spanish first did, they decided to keep it a secret. Of course, originally it had been pounded and stirred into a cold beverage  just peppers and corn which wasn't appealing to the Spanish. The Spanish decided to add heat -along with milk and cane sugar to make the cocoa drink that's been a treat for centuries. Of course, they decided to keep it a secret from the other European powers which resulted in English,French and other privateers ( AKA pirates) throwing 'worthless' bags of cocoa beans overboard when raiding Spanish galleons!

 That would change when the French king Louis XIII wed the Spanish princess known to history as Anne of Austria [though  she never even visited Austria but had been born into the Hapsburg Dynasty which had hailed from Austria] in 1615. Anyway, the new French queen wasn't happy to go long without her comfort drink and had it imported to the French court. Very quickly, the drink became very popular among the French royals, courtiers and nobles and it wasn't before too long that cocoa quickly transcended class barriers and even borders and it would become popular all over Europe!

 

Edited March 4 by Blergh

[Blergh]

One of the deeds of St. Patrick (c. 385-c. 481 AD) was that he drove out all the snakes from the Emerald Isle after he endured a 40 day fast. However, it appears that the island had been long cut off from the rest of Europe and even neighboring Great Britain to the degree that no snake fossils have been found. One could consider that St. Patrick might have caused said fossils to have amscrayed along with all living  vipers. 

[Blergh]

Today May 5th is celebrated in Mexico (and Mexican restaurants outside that nation) as their National Holiday.

 

However, it's the anniversary of the defeat Napoleon III's French forces at the Battle of Puebla in 1862 who were trying to establish a new Empire of Mexico [but in reality a puppet government of the French Empire]- and NOT their independence day since Mexico had been  recognized as an independent nation instead of a colony  by its former mother country of Spain in 1821.

Of course, it wasn't the end of Napoleon III's attempts in Mexico and he would install the hapless Austrian Hapsburg Archduke Maximilian and his wife the former Princess Charlotte of Belgium ( a first cousin of Vic- and the SIL of Emperor Franz-Josef and his stunning wife Sisi) as the Emperor Maximilian and Empress Carlota in 1864 but between them spending their monies on beautifying their Chapultepec Palace AND installing Mexico City's first street lamps, they  had too little left  to pay their soldiers. This would result in Maximilian being overthrown and executed in 1867 and Carlota fleeing to try to persuade Napoleon III, then her in-laws and finally the Pope to try to rescue Maximilian before she mentally collapsed. . .but would survive many changes in the world surrounding her Belgian castle (especially around the First World War) before her 1927 death at age 86. She'd have to travel by moat from her castle each day and when crossing it, she'd  often say to the end of her life , 'Today, we're sailing to Mexico!'

Something to ponder  over tequilas and guacamole quesadillas . . .

[isalicat]

3 hours ago, Blergh said:

Today May 5th is celebrated in Mexico (and Mexican restaurants outside that nation) as their National Holiday.

Frankly, not so much in Mexico at all. Cinco de Mayo is primarily celebrated in the U.S. southwest, as it is not the national day of Mexico's independence (that is September 16th) and is not a national holiday in Mexico.

The small-time Mexican holiday was promoted heavily in the United States in the 1960s by activists who, in part, “identified with the victory of Indigenous Mexicans (such as Juárez) over European invaders during the Battle of Puebla,” History.com says.

[SoMuchTV]

3 hours ago, Blergh said:

Today May 5th is celebrated in Mexico (and Mexican restaurants outside that nation) as their National Holiday.

 

However, it's the anniversary of the defeat Napoleon III's French forces at the Battle of Puebla in 1862 who were trying to establish a new Empire of Mexico [but in reality a puppet government of the French Empire]- and NOT their independence day since Mexico had been  recognized as an independent nation instead of a colony  by its former mother country of Spain in 1821.

Of course, it wasn't the end of Napoleon III's attempts in Mexico and he would install the hapless Austrian Hapsburg Archduke Maximilian and his wife the former Princess Charlotte of Belgium ( a first cousin of Vic- and the SIL of Emperor Franz-Josef and his stunning wife Sisi) as the Emperor Maximilian and Empress Carlota in 1864 but between them spending their monies on beautifying their Chapultepec Palace AND installing Mexico City's first street lamps, they  had too little left  to pay their soldiers. This would result in Maximilian being overthrown and executed in 1867 and Carlota fleeing to try to persuade Napoleon III, then her in-laws and finally the Pope to try to rescue Maximilian before she mentally collapsed. . .but would survive many changes in the world surrounding her Belgian castle (especially around the First World War) before her 1927 death at age 86. She'd have to travel by moat from her castle each day and when crossing it, she'd  often say to the end of her life , 'Today, we're sailing to Mexico!'

Something to ponder  over tequilas and guacamole quesadillas . . .

I almost didn't read your whole post because I was fully expecting it to end with condiment shipments and sinko-de-mayo.  So thanks for not going there!

Edited May 5 by SoMuchTV

[Blergh]

President Harry S Truman had grown up on a series of Missouri farms and was known for having a somewhat . ..earthy vocabulary at times.

 Anyway, the First Lady Bess was hosting a garden club at the White House and President Truman briefly greeted them- complimenting the members on their flowers' beauty-  topping it off by saying that they must have used some good manure to accomplish that.

After he left one of garden club members asked, "Doesn't the President know that the proper term is fertilizer?"

Without missing a beat Mrs. Truman replied, "It took me 25 years to get him to say 'manure'"!

[Blergh]

As we celebrate Mother's Day in the US, it's important to know its origins.

In 19th century, Great Britain as the land became more industrialized and even tiny children of struggling families were put to work in factories, mills and mines in often dangerous and chaotic conditions, there came to be something known as 'Mothering Sunday' in which these overburdened children would get to return home for at least part of a Sunday and have their mothers reunite with them and tend to them.

As for the U.S., a West Virginia schoolteacher Anna Maria Jarvis (1864-1948) had taken care of her own mother in her mother's last years but was understandably inconsolable when the older woman left this world. To that end, she had a talk with her local minister and they agreed to have a special service honoring mothers both living and dead with carefully selected Scriptural verses and each attendee getting carnations (the late Mrs. Jarvis's favorite flower)- red for those with living mothers and white for those with deceased mothers.  It was such a success in their community that Miss Jarvis started a  literal one-woman campaign to make it a national holiday  writing every Senator, Representative and state governor and, despite this being before women could vote in national elections, it was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson in 1914!

Alas, this victory did not bring Miss Jarvis lasting peace. For one thing, due to her having sworn to stay single after having been jilted, she gradually considered it a mockery of her marital status. But more seriously for her, Miss Jarvis believed that Mother's Day was supposed to be a strictly spiritual day with no chance of anyone profitting from it- including greeting card companies and florists. To that end, she engaged quite a few lawyers to attempt to halt the designated day's commercialization. Alas, the greeting card companies and florists, having far more resources for lawyers to protect their own interests defeated all of Miss Jarvis's attempts- and Miss Jarvis wound up losing her family home . Not surprisingly with the loss of her family home and the death of her blind sister whom she'd doted upon, this resulted in  depression and she wound up institutionalized for some time during the last part of her life. 

However, nothing can take away from the fact that, despite the odds against her, she DID  ensure that the US would have a day set aside specifically to honor mothers and that's something for all mothers and everyone wanting to honor/commemorate their mothers to take heart in.

 

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY to all posters who are mothers and all posters who want to honor/commemorate their own mothers as well as any and all mothers in their lives!

[Blergh]

[Edited to add that I've since found out that I was a week early for Father's Day when I posted this. I guess because my own father had been deceased for X number of years, I somehow managed to get the Sundays confused. However, it does seem that Mrs. Dodd had originally attempted to push through the earlier Sunday in June as the time to celebrate Father's Day due to her own father's birthday having been June 5th. I'm sorry for any confusion and I hope this trivia gets enjoyed regardless of my having jumped the gun]

 

OK, since I gave a summation of how the US Mother's Day came into being, for the sake of all posters with positive and nontoxic fathers, it's only fair how I mention how Father's Day happened.

It seems in Spokane, Washington in May, 1909, one of the first [unofficial] Mother's Day services was given but there was an unexpected protest from an unexpected quarter from someone who believed that celebrating mothers' positive contributions alone unfairly ignored the positive contributions of fathers. No, this wasn't a father or even a male but a 27-year-old wife (herself about four months in the family way) named Sonora Smart Dodd (1882-1978).

Mrs. Dodd had been born in the town of Jenny Lind,Arkansas [yes, it had been named for the world famous 'Swedish Nightingale' opera singer] to a Union AND Confederate veteran named William Jackson Smart (1842-1919) who had been a widower with children when he married a widow with children named Ellen Cheek Billingsley (1851-1898) and the two of them would become the future Mrs. Dodd's parents and later would move their expanding family to a remote farm outside Spokane, Washington. Anyway,when the 2nd Mrs. Smart was 46 she died bearing her last child. The then-16-year old Sonora wound up helping her widowed father take care of her  younger brothers and credited him for having valiantly become a sacrificing single parent to the six of them while running the family farm!  Sonora was very thankful that her widowed father insisted on keeping the large family intact instead of farming his minor offspring out to other families. ..or trying for a 3rd wife. Anyway, in October of that year,  she herself  would bear her only child John 'Jack' Bruce Dodd,Jr. (and may have decided one was quite enough-having already  helped raise her five younger brothers) but that didn't stop her determination in having an official Father's Day being declared in honor of her own still-living father and all worthy fathers(in addition to helping her husband Mr. Dodd, Sr. run the family funeral parlor- which STILL is in operation). Anyway, while she got to see Father's Day unofficially celebrated the next year in Spokane, she would not rest until it would declared a permanent National Holiday- which it finally was in 1972 by which point not only had her own father had died but she was a 90-year-old widow and grandmother. It may have taken nearly all of her own adult life but Mrs. Dodd DID finally get to see her life's goal achieved before her own passing at the ripe old age of 96!

Yes, in retrospect, it's rather unexpected that Mrs. Dodd wouldn't have taken comfort  during that first Mother's Day service in having her OWN tragic mother's life celebrated along with the congregation's other deceased mothers much less being happy that her impending motherhood would henceforth be celebrated from the pulpits  instead of using that to start her campaign for Father's Day but  there it is.

Happy[Early] Father's Day!

Edited June 11 by Blergh
jumped the gun being a week early for Father's Day

[Blergh]

OK, since this is a trivia thread, this would be as good a place as any to discuss the one who may be the least documented of US Presidential spouses, one Hannah Hoes Van Buren (1783-1819).  She had been born in her future husband Martin's hometown of Kinderhook, New York on the Hudson River and, like her future husband, her first language was  Dutch instead of English and was said to speak English with a strong Hudson Valley Dutch accent. Yes, in spite of the fact that the original Dutch colony had fallen to the English in 1660, many if not most of the descendants of the original colonists tenaciously maintained their ancestral homeland's mother tongue (and, in some cases would do so as late as the early 20th century before phonographs and radio somewhat overwhelmed the tradition).

Anyway, Hannah also happened to be a maternal first cousin of Martin and evidently had been childhood sweethearts yet they would not marry until 1807 when Hannah was at the somewhat then-late age of 24. She would bear five children but only three sons would survive infancy and poor Hannah herself would die of tuberculosis at the age of 35 with her youngest surviving son not yet two years old.

Despite his own loss of marital companionship and their  young sons being motherless, her widower would never remarry before his own death 43 years later at age 79 in 1862. Their eldest son Abraham's 20-year-old wife Angelica Singleton Van Buren would serve as de facto First Lady  from 1838-1841 after Martin had become the 8th President.

Unlike his predecessor Thomas  Jefferson (who endlessly memorialized his late wife Martha Wayles Skelton Jefferson), Martin was rather private about his feelings towards Hannah- to the degree that he didn't mention her even ONCE in his 900 page autobiography ! Some say that he didn't want her to be scrutinized by future historians but who knows.  I wonder how their sons felt about that!

Edited July 29 by Blergh

[Blergh]

While it's been well known how eagerly Native Americans from Tierra Del Fuego to the Alaskan tundra made good use of horses, it seems that they had realized their value much earlier than expected. It's known that the first horses in the continental Americas arrived with Cortez  when he landed in what's now Vera Cruz, Mexico, it's been discovered that horses didn't just randomly race northwards to the what's now the Southeast US but were imported via existing Native American trade routes quickly enough so that they already were part of the landscape of what's now the Plains of the United States by the early 17th century long before European settlers reached there- as per a Smithsonian magazine article published December,2023.

 

Of course, horses lived in the Americas thousands of years beforehand. And in 2017 (as per the BBC)  in the rain forest of Colombia, South America, very detailed lengthy rock art dating no later than 9000 BC [that somehow got preserved] was  discovered in which horses were depicted by the Native Americans living there alongside with other now-extinct species including mastodons and camels.

While many anthropologists would marvel at how quickly so many Native American tribes made horses as part of their own creation myths so soon after the first European re-imports, I wonder if may be possible that at least some of the equine veneration may have been passed down from much more ancient times via oral traditions than has been previously imagined.

[Blergh]

In 1952, two Chilean mountaineers named Bion Gonzalez and Juan Harsheim became the first climbers in modern times to successfully ascend the 22,110 foot (6739 meter) high Andean summit  on current the Chilean-Argentine border called Llullaillaco [you-yigh-YOCK-oh] (which means 'false water' in Quechua-evidently due to none of the snow at the summit's meltwater reaching the parched Atacama desert  below).

However, when the mid-20th century climbers reached it, they discovered they were by no means the first folks to have reached said peak. No, they didn't find pick axes or climbing ropes but actual archaeological artifacts that attested that the Incans and local Atacama tribes didn't just claim to worship this peak but they most certainly walked the walk and talked the talk! 

In the decades since, several shrines as well as three Incan roads branching from their main venues  leading up to the summit  have been discovered as well as even  a shrine at the actual summit itself. Alas, the summit shrine was found to have three human sacrifices of, evidently well-fed and well-cared for children of wealthy families(alongside quite a treasure trove of luxuries). Regardless of the unsettling fate of the mummies buried within,  this shrine DOES mark the highest permanent human-made structure on Earth (even the contemporary Mt. Everest camps are several thousand feet lower in elevation).  And, let's keep in mind that all this infrastructure was built by people who not only had had no oxygen tanks but had no use (if not knowledge) of  any kind of wheel.

Edited September 15 by Blergh

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, Blergh said:

In 1952, two Chilean mountaineers named Bion Gonzalez and Juan Harsheim became the first climbers in modern times to successfully ascend the 22,110 foot (6739 meter) high Andean summit  on current the Chilean-Argentine border called Llullaillaco [you-yigh-YOCK-oh] (which means 'false water' in Quechua-evidently due to none of the snow at the summit's meltwater reaching the parched Atacama desert  below).

However, when the mid-20th century climbers reached it, they discovered they were by no means the first folks to have reached said peak. No, they didn't find pick axes or climbing ropes but actual archaeological artifacts that attested that the Incans and local Atacama tribes didn't just claim to worship this peak but they most certainly walked the walk and talked the talk! 

In the decades since, several shrines as well as three Incan roads branching from their main venues  leading up to the summit  have been discovered as well as even  a shrine at the actual summit itself. Alas, the summit shrine was found to have three human sacrifices of, evidently well-fed and well-cared for children of wealthy families(alongside quite a treasure trove of luxuries). Regardless of the unsettling fate of the mummies buried within,  this shrine DOES mark the highest permanent human-made structure on Earth (even the contemporary Mt. Everest camps are several thousand feet lower in elevation).  And, let's keep in mind that all this infrastructure was built by people who not only had had no oxygen tanks but had no use (if not knowledge) of  any kind of wheel.

Coincidentally we were talking about Macchu Pichu today. We visited in 2009. How did it get there?  What happened to the people?  No one knows. 

[Blergh]

8 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Coincidentally we were talking about Macchu Pichu today. We visited in 2009. How did it get there?  What happened to the people?  No one knows. 

Good questions about Machu Picchu. It must have been fascinating to have visited there 15 years ago. Yes, I have to admit, I would like to explore some of those Incan sites one day.

As best as contemporary scholars can theorize, it appears that it was a royal retreat built about 1450 where hundreds of staff members and their families lived full time to keep the place s***-and-span and at the ready for the emperor to stay there at any moment. Everything from mountain springs being carefully diverted to canals so that the emperor himself would get the first (and cleanest) sip of their waters to the terraced farms below the main complex having been carefully engineered so the soil would  be protected from flash floods in the semi-jungle climate!

What happened to the people who lived there? It appears that they were almost entirely wiped out by smallpox and other diseases that the Spanish conquerors had brought with them from Europe that the Native American population had no immunity against. So virulent were these diseases that they wiped out entire settlements even hundreds of miles from the nearest European explorer/missionary/conqueror (as in the case of many villages in what's now Quebec).

While it appears to have been known to the Spanish for roughly a century after the conquest, since it was on the edge of old empire AND hugging the wild jungle below, there was little interest in exploring it- and it seemed to have been empty of people almost from the time of plagues having wiped out so many Native Americans- until Hiram Brigham's exploration including photographs helped publicize the empty, overgrown but once proud royal complex in 1911.

Edited September 16 by Blergh

[EtheltoTillie]

15 hours ago, Blergh said:

Good questions about Machu Picchu. It must have been fascinating to have visited there 15 years ago. Yes, I have to admit, I would like to explore some of those Incan sites one day.

As best as contemporary scholars can theorize, it appears that it was a royal retreat built about 1450 where hundreds of staff members and their families lived full time to keep the place s***-and-span and at the ready for the emperor to stay there at any moment. Everything from mountain springs being carefully diverted to canals so that the emperor himself would get the first (and cleanest) sip of their waters to the terraced farms below the main complex having been carefully engineered so the soil would  be protected from flash floods in the semi-jungle climate!

What happened to the people who lived there? It appears that they were almost entirely wiped out by smallpox and other diseases that the Spanish conquerors had brought with them from Europe that the Native American population had no immunity against. So virulent were these diseases that they wiped out entire settlements even hundreds of miles from the nearest European explorer/missionary/conqueror (as in the case of many villages in what's now Quebec).

While it appears to have been known to the Spanish for roughly a century after the conquest, since it was on the edge of old empire AND hugging the wild jungle below, there was little interest in exploring it- and it seemed to have been empty of people almost from the time of plagues having wiped out so many Native Americans- until Hiram Brigham's exploration including photographs helped publicize the empty, overgrown but once proud royal complex in 1911.

We had heard about the smallpox and diseases.  That's what we were talking about yesterday.  Thanks for the additional info.  It's very much theory.  That's what we took away from our visit, which was nonetheless fascinating.  We climbed Wayana Picchu and we visited other Quechua sites in Cuzco and elsewhere.  We went to Lima for a destination wedding of NYC co-workers, one of whom was born in Lima.  Then we added on the sightseeing trip. 

[PRgal]

My son brought home a book about butterflies and moths on Friday (it was his library day).  According to the book, butterfly mating can last 20 minutes to several hours.  Lucky them.   

[Blergh]

Although the active volcano Mauna Loa ['Long Mountain' in Hawaiian] is the more famous of the prominent mountains on the Big Island of Hawaii, at 13,679 feet (4169 meters), it's actually dwarfed by the dormant volcano Mauna Kea ['White Mountain'] at 13,803 feet (4207 meters). In fact, Mauna Kea, if one were to measure from its ultimate base on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean floor   just under 20,000 below sea level, Mauna Kea would actually be the tallest mountain in the world- yes, even taller than Mt. Everest!

However, it's not just the height that make Mauna Kea something remarkable, for six months of the year, its peak is covered with snow which is why the Ancient Hawaiians bestowed the name they did on it (and it appears to have been covered in glaciers during the last Ice Age).  Oh, but amazingly enough, just a few hundred feet below the summit, it has its own alpine lake just over an acre in dimension called Lake Waiau which not only is the highest lake in the Pacific basin but also was one of only two natural freshwater lakes on the Big Island (the other  Ka Wai Pele got destroyed by a lava flow from Kilauea in 2018 despite having supposedly been a favorite spot of the Hawaiian volcano goddess called Madame Pele).  Not surprisingly, the Polynesian settlers were rather impressed by the phenomon of snow which Mauna Kea was virtually unique in their corner of the world and they considered Mauna Kea to be sacred with its upper elevations only permissible for noble and warrior classes. They would often take the placentas of their firstborn sons and dip them in the waters of Lake Waiau to give their heirs protection. 

Oh, and Mauna Kea had its own deity, the  snow goddess Poli ahu who was considered the enemy of the volcano goddess Madame Pele. Anyway, according to one Hawaiian legend, the two goddesses found themselves in  (of all contests) a wooden sled race which wound up with Madame Pele  opening lava streams to try to win while Poli ahu threw snow. Anyway, as per this legend,  it was due to this contest that  Madame Pele got to have dominion on the active volcanoes of Mauna Loa and Kilauea while Poli ahu got dominion of Mauna Kea and barred Madame Pele.

 

[Blergh]

Sara Delano Roosevelt (1854-1941) was an heiress to a large fortune that she'd use to help boost her husband James's  (1828-1900)estate and holdings while the two jointly  raised their only child Franklin (1882-1945) .By all accounts, while both Sara were very active and fit until the last parts of their respective lives, they were doting to James in his own twilight years.  James repaid the favor by declaring Sara his executrix AND spelling out in his will that she was to have the sole legal guardianship of their son [by no means automatic for widowed mothers back then].

Anyway, the only conflict Sara would have with their son would be in wanting to marry his 5th cousin Eleanor who happened to be President Theodore Roosevelt's paternal niece and would even take him on a lengthy voyage to try to persuade her son to drop the idea. However Franklin persisted and Sara (who held the family purse strings) eventually gave her blessing and the two would be married in 1905 with President Theodore Roosevelt himself giving his orphaned niece away and in May of 1906, they welcomed their firstborn child (and only daughter) Anna whom Sara immediately  eagerly cherished  while Eleanor herself was still somewhat insecure as a parent. 

Then, in June of 1906, all of New York City and soon the rest of the nation was rocked by the news of the murder of the renowned architect Standford White in Madison Square Garden by Henry Thaw- the jealous husband of Evelyn Nesbit. The former Miss Nesbit had been a stunning beauty but born in a destitute family who had done her best to support her widowed mother via being a model. However, it soon came to light by the murder trial of Mr. Thaw that Mr. White had been part of a group of jaded wealthy men who took advantage of desperate young girls  and that he had insisted on Miss Nesbit riding on a red velvet swing in his own secret bachelor pad for his pleasure before he did less printable things to her.

Anyway, Mr. White himself HAD been married at the time but what the newspapers  ignored (or were ignorant of)  was before their  respective marriages, he'd courted  the tall, stunning Sara Delano herself only to have her father Warren dismiss him as 'the redheaded trial' after which she opted to marry the much older, widowed James and contented herself as a patrician's wife with, by all accounts, a mutually monogamous bond. However, one has to wonder if the widowed new grandmother Sara, upon reading the news of Mr. White's murder then with his blatant shadowside exposed to the world,  may have been belatedly grateful to her late father for his role in sparing her from all that. It should be noted that Miss Nesbit had more than a passing resemblance to the young Sara!

Regardless of all the above, the elder Mrs. Roosevelt would make history in 1932 by becoming the first mother of US President not only to live to see her son become President but to actually have been able to have personally VOTED for her son which she would proudly do three times before her death at age 86 with Franklin at her side. Also, it needs to mentioned that just a few minutes after Mrs. Roosevelt breathed her last, the largest oak tree on her Hyde Park Estate collapsed- despite it having been a calm windless day!

Edited October 22 by Blergh

[annzeepark914]

@Blergh This was a fascinating read. Thanks!

[Ancaster]

We all (I think!) know that baby kangaroos are called joeys, but today I learnt that all marsupial babies are called joeys - koalas, wombats, etc.  Makes sense, but seems like it could be a good Jeopardy! question.