Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

50 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

The other things yeah I agree, obviously they gave Arya Manderly's tasting menu and Stoneheart's vengeance. I'm going to disagree about Jon/Faegon. I think Cersei is filling that role. The early Jon/ Dany conflict I think is a hint of what their issues with each will be. The books have hinted at a Dance of Dragons Two and we know Martin loves history repeating itself. And that conflicted ended began with one "false" Aegon claiming the throne and ends with the true Aegon. So his name being Aegon might not be that far fetched.

I've considered that. The only thing is that Jon wouldn't be a participant in the second Dance. But I agree that he could go this one was a fake, but here's the real one! Tada!

As far as everything else, I'm okay being spoiled for the endgame because I'm the person who reads the first 5 chapters of a book, then reads the last 5 to see if how it ends, then I'm like now I wanna know what happens in the middle. When I was reading AGOT, I picked a POV towards the end of the book, and it happened to be the Arya chapter when Ned gets beheaded. I was like well this is fucked up, therefore I must read this.

[MadMouse]

12 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I've considered that. The only thing is that Jon wouldn't be a participant in the second Dance. But I agree that he could go this one was a fake, but here's the real one! Tada!

As far as everything else, I'm okay being spoiled for the endgame because I'm the person who reads the first 5 chapters of a book, then reads the last 5 to see if how it ends, then I'm like now I wanna know what happens in the middle. When I was reading AGOT, I picked a POV towards the end of the book, and it happened to be the Arya chapter when Ned gets beheaded. I was like well this is fucked up, therefore I must read this.

Were kinda assuming Jon won't be right? Think about the meeting between Jon and Dany, the troubles she faced losing her allies. Now replace Cersei with Faegon, the Dornish being allied with him because of Quentyn and the friends in the Reach. Who would be her Westeros allies at that point? Now here comes Jon asking for help with these mythical creatures. Nobody will believe him so an alliance if he helps her fight her enemies in return for fighting his that nobody believes in. Sounds like a win win for her. And there's the callbacks that Martin loves, who killed the first Blackfyre? His half brother, bastard offspring of a Targ and woman with with strong First Men blood and Old gods connection who just happened to rise to Lord Commander of the NW. Sound like anyone ?

I agree about the end game stuff too. My initial comment was about growing anger in the fandom about the story not being what they thought. The complaining about Jon being a cliche character or the the pairing of the main heroes. It confuses me more than anything, Jon has always been the hidden prince and Jon/Dany has been there from the title of the series. 

[domina89]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

That said, yes, if she dies only to birth a male heir, I will be pretty disappointed. Because of how this has all been set up thus far, I don't think that singular result is where we're going. But writers are unpredictable and misogyny is rampant. So I really do understand your concern.

I'm going to be disappointed if the opposite happens as well- Jon lives only long enough to father the next Targ generation. If Jon has a child, I want to see him hold him/her and preferably raise him/her. I keep thinking of Benjen's words to Jon in season one about not realizing what he is giving up by joining the Night's Watch, and also Aemon's words to Jon regarding family, love and duty.  It would be such a shame not to get the payoff to those scenes.

[YaddaYadda]

21 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Were kinda assuming Jon won't be right? Think about the meeting between Jon and Dany, the troubles she faced losing her allies. Now replace Cersei with Faegon, the Dornish being allied with him because of Quentyn and the friends in the Reach. Who would be her Westeros allies at that point? Now here comes Jon asking for help with these mythical creatures. Nobody will believe him so an alliance if he helps her fight her enemies in return for fighting his that nobody believes in. Sounds like a win win for her. And there's the callbacks that Martin loves, who killed the first Blackfyre? His half brother, bastard offspring of a Targ and woman with with strong First Men blood and Old gods connection who just happened to rise to Lord Commander of the NW. Sound like anyone ?

Am I the only one who thinks that Jon Con might know about Jon? The way he introduces Aegon to the Golden Company makes me twitch. 

And what you mention is a callback, definitely, but I'm just super iffy about how this will go down. I have no doubt that Jon will start looking for allies sooner rather than later. I wonder when Jon is going to definitely find out who his parents are. Is this happening in the next book or in the last one? Anyway...

28 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

I agree about the end game stuff too. My initial comment was about growing anger in the fandom about the story not being what they thought. The complaining about Jon being a cliche character or the the pairing of the main heroes. It confuses me more than anything, Jon has always been the hidden prince and Jon/Dany has been there from the title of the series. 

I think that has to do with how everyone enjoys talking about how GRRM is subverting these tropes when he isn't. But that might be just me.

[MadMouse]

23 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Am I the only one who thinks that Jon Con might know about Jon? The way he introduces Aegon to the Golden Company makes me twitch. 

And what you mention is a callback, definitely, but I'm just super iffy about how this will go down. I have no doubt that Jon will start looking for allies sooner rather than later. I wonder when Jon is going to definitely find out who his parents are. Is this happening in the next book or in the last one? Anyway...

I think that has to do with how everyone enjoys talking about how GRRM is subverting these tropes when he isn't. But that might be just me.

I've heard that before, I don't know. He seems pretty devoted to Faegon.

Yeah the trope thing gets thrown around alot and whenever I see people push back on it they get dogpiled. I admit I'm not a huge fantasy fan, outside of the Asoiaf and the Witcher so my experience is limited. But whenever people bring up tropes or Disney ending. I ask them how many stories main couple and heroes are "A resurrected fire wight hidden prince, who rides a dragon and the other is the princess that's also a dragon rider conqueror that happen to be aunt and nephew who are in a happy incestuous relationship". Again maybe I'm wrong but that's not typical fantasy or Disney fare right?

Edited September 3, 2017 by MadMouse

[SimoneS]

5 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

I hope you both are correct, but if that's the case, the only thing I can forsee is that for the two of them to survive (with or without a biological heir), and rule together, is that they both lose everything/everyone else that matters to them both.  Dragons....gone.  Starks as a great house, gone.  Missandei, Grey Worm, Davos, gone.  Like that. 

I am still not convinced that the "end points" are going to be the same in any meaningful way between the show and the books. 

There are two wars coming so Jon and Dany will lose a lot of people, but they are not going to lose everyone. After Alan Taylor's comments about GRRM being open about Jon and Dany being the point of the story, but that it took a while for them to get there and that they have further to go, I am more convinced than ever that D&D are giving the main characters the ending that he told them.

 

2 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Yeah the trope thing gets thrown around alot and whenever I see people push back on it they get dogpiled. I admit I'm not a huge fantasy fan, outside of the Asoiaf and the Witcher so my experience is limited. But whenever people bring up tropes or Disney ending. I ask them how many stories main couple and heroes are "A resurrected fire wight hidden prince, who rides a dragon and the other is the princess that's also a dragon rider conqueror that happen to be aunt and nephew who are in a happy incestuous relationship". Again maybe I'm wrong but that's not typical fantasy or Disney fare right?

You are describing an author tweaking the details of a familiar and commonly told story that is full of just about every trope that is used in the sci fantasy genre.  I will give you that incest is not widespread in the genre, but it isn't unheard of either. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by SimoneS

[MadMouse]

29 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

You are describing an author tweaking the details of a familiar and commonly told story that is full of just about every trope that is used in the sci fantasy genre.  I will give you that incest is not widespread in the genre, but it isn't unheard of either. 

That's what I'm getting at isn't the whole story just Martin putting is own twist on those tropes. So while stereotypical in a broad sense its the details make them different. Obviously the show versions are more white knights than their book counterparts but if they're ending up in the same place which I think they are the book versions aren't a " normal" heroic romantic pairing.

[SimoneS]

12 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

That's what I'm getting at isn't the whole story just Martin putting is own twist on those tropes. So while stereotypical in a broad sense its the details make them different. Obviously the show versions are more white knights than their book counterparts but if they're ending up in the same place which I think they are the book versions aren't a " normal" heroic romantic pairing.

Tweaking details don't change the fact that GoT is riddled with tropes which is why I expect that the story is going to end the same way that most of sci fantasy books do; the hero and heroine together in power and/or ruling. So far, I haven't see anything that indicates to otherwise to me, but then I am unfazed by the death, violence, and incest surrounding the main characters. By the end of season 8, we will know one way or the other.

Edited September 4, 2017 by SimoneS

[MadMouse]

21 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Tweaking details don't change the fact that GoT is riddled with tropes which is why I expect that the story is going to end the same way that most of sci fantasy books do; the hero and heroine together in power and/or ruling. So far, I haven't see anything that indicates to otherwise to me, but then I am unfazed by the death, violence, and incest surrounding the main characters. By the end of season 8, we will know one way or the other.

Boy am I dense, that was what my first comment about how the books fans seem to be turning on the series was about. They bought into their own bullshit about the series. Guess that's what no sleep and a baby will do rob me of my comprehension skills.

[anamika]

Jon becomes the main character of the series just by virtue of the fact that his story is connected to the Others/Wall. Which means that every other character's story should eventually crash into his and service his plot because the Others are the main plot of the series.

Like GRRM said, when discussing Stannis:

Quote

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

The other main character in this regard is Bran and GRRM has mentioned that we will be getting lots of Bran chapters in TWoW.  The series started with Bran and it will likely end with him. And then we have Dany with her dragons and Arya with her Valyrian steel dagger and wolf pack.

These are all the characters that GRRM considered important in his original story draft along with Tyrion. So I think they will all have important roles in the defeat of the Others.

[Nash]

Well there is some heavy weight speculation here, I have a few ideas but will start with a fun one .....Beric Dondarion to kill the undead dragon with his flaming sword and go out heroically.... 

[Nash]

And sticking with B; I'm curious about Bronn's fate. I think he'll get out of KL and make it to the northern front where he'll fight the undead. He acts as a harsh voice of common sense and while he's brutal and venal for him it's a job not a sadistic calling. Part of me thinks he could survive if only to make the point that it's fine to break the wheel but a future king or queen will only make a new one. 

[Nash]

As for Jaime; he's going to have a fraught time not getting lynched at Winterfell except for two things. Bran will probably forgive him and the Northern Lords will respect the fact that he has ridden north to keep a promise. I don't expect him to survive but I do think he might expiate his guilt by becoming the Kingslayer for the second time and killing the Night King; that or he'll get close and open the way for Jon Targstark to get the killing blow in. He's clearly struggling with his conscience and has never been as vile as, say, the Boltons. 

I apologise for several posts but it helps me keep focused

[Nash]

GRRM always said he wanted to subvert the genre and I think he succeeded - even if the story ends with Jon & Daenerys ruling together in a bit of a cliche. 

 

I'm curious as to why the pregnancy speculation - she doesn't have to get pregnant even if they are at it all the time on the ship. I'd not read too much into Jon being on top either - that meant you knew what was happening but saw very little by comparison to other GOT sex scenes.   

 

I think much of the subversive element has been just how grim it has been and how for much of it we were longing for the good guys to have even a minor success. The arrival of the Knights of the Vale was the first time for a long time that the Westeros villains were beaten hard and conclusively. 

 

I don't think we'll see some kind of democracy at the end - maybe a rather less harsh system but it's still going to be a monarchy and if GRRM likes the Targaryens so much, then it'll be a monarchy with a mystic tie to the land and thereby a right to rule. Now to me, that is a direct return to the divine right cliche and would subvert the whole subversive mission. 

[MadMouse]

26 minutes ago, Nash said:

I'm curious as to why the pregnancy speculation - she doesn't have to get pregnant even if they are at it all the time on the ship. I'd not read too much into Jon being on top either - that meant you knew what was happening but saw very little by comparison to other GOT sex scenes.   

Because of how much they've mentioned Dany being barren this season the show isn't subtle, if you believe the main characters will end up in the same general place as the books there's part of prophecy"Only a King's blood can wake the stone dragon" Jon impregnating Dany ,whenever dragons being born is mentioned in the series it always refers to Targaryen child.

[Nash]

Ah, that makes sense. Thank you. I'm not too hot on the prophesies tbh.

I think a gratuitous Monty python misquote is called for....."he's not a king, he's a very naughty boy!"

[madam magpie]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon becomes the main character of the series just by virtue of the fact that his story is connected to the Others/Wall. Which means that every other character's story should eventually crash into his and service his plot because the Others are the main plot of the series.

I don't think that's true here. It's definitely not inherently true. The protagonist is the character whose story all the other characters' serve and affect and whose evolution is wrapped up in the larger theme of the story. In an epic like this, it's certainly possible to have two protagonists...even more. That's what's happened so far. Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Cersei have all been protagonists of their own sections throughout the series. Now that they're coming together, those stories have merged and it's unclear what single character is the whole series' protagonist, though it definitely looks like it's coming down to Dany and Jon. That has nothing to do with who's important. Lots of characters can be crucially important to the story and theme. That doesn't make them the protagonist.

The battle with the NK is a huge part of the story, but it's an event and the primary conflict, not the theme. The theme is power, and it's wrapped up in Dany. Until the reveal of his parentage, Jon's evolution hasn't been connected to that much at all. Now it is and the protagonist could shift, but that hasn't happened yet. It usually doesn't. The only reason I think the shift could happen is that GRRM has already set the precedent that he's willing to do it. It seems unlikely and much harder to do now that we're so far into the story, but it's possible. He clearly likes to play with plot structure. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by madam magpie

[Nash]

Well, yes, the Red Wedding showed us that. 

A lot depends upon just how far GRRM was willing to push his readership (and by extension, the viewers). If as I think is probable, the NK is dealt with first, with Cersei and the Westeros Settlement as the "scouring of the shire", there could be a massive body count among the tier 1 and 2 characters in the North, with the new era being opened as the "also rans" become heroes and defeat Cersei. That's a bit radical I know but I'd honestly say that once both threats are removed, there will be few characters left standing. 

That said - GRRM could have done a flip flop on the plot and all the characters who have suffered pain and humiliation will now have a bumpy but still traditional homestretch to triumph. 

If this is all about mending the kingdom then the logical outcome is the William and Mary style joint monarchy settlement (plus Dragons). 

[madam magpie]

23 minutes ago, Nash said:

That said - GRRM could have done a flip flop on the plot and all the characters who have suffered pain and humiliation will now have a bumpy but still traditional homestretch to triumph. 

Absolutely true. That would be pretty easy and cliched, but it's a definite possibility.

A lot of the action is a misdirect until we get to the end. Ned, Rob, Catelyn, etc. weren't who this story is about. It's not really about the Starks at all, though some Starks do play a very important role. In reality, they were all just bit players in a larger narrative. So on some level, we don't know WHO this is really about. But I think we do know what it's about: power.

There are a lot of ways to mend a kingdom. You don't need the leads to end up on the throne together. It depends entirely on what GRRM wants this story to say. One of the things I like is that I'm not entirely sure what the story means for me to think, and I don't think we'll really know until it's over and can look at it as a whole.

[Nash]

And yes that's true as well - when I read book 1 I thought it was a thinly concealed fantasy version of the Wars of The Roses, which in a way it is. In that sense Ned's execution simply reflected the fate of the Duke of York at the start of it all. 

But I gradually realised that it wasn't a straight take on WOTR. 

I'm enjoying not knowing what's happening now the series has overtaken the books; as the only person in work who'd read them I enjoyed being able to say in a bad Northern accent "I know nothing". It was even funnier when I learnt Kit Harrington was saying the same thing. 

Its all down to what kind of a vision GRRM had in mind - and after all the blood and pain I hope it's solid and worthwhile one. 

[Hana Chan]

If there is one moment I'm going to thoroughly savor in season 8, it will be Jamie meeting Jon again. Considering that their biggest interaction was back at the beginning of season one, with Jamie's insulting greeting to Jon just before he left for the Wall, and the mocking he showed about the things on the other side, I'm looking forward to seeing him placing himself in Jon's and Dany's service and acknowledging that he'd been very, very wrong.

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

If there is one moment I'm going to thoroughly savor in season 8, it will be Jamie meeting Jon again. Considering that their biggest interaction was back at the beginning of season one, with Jamie's insulting greeting to Jon just before he left for the Wall, and the mocking he showed about the things on the other side, I'm looking forward to seeing him placing himself in Jon's and Dany's service and acknowledging that he'd been very, very wrong.

Agreed! Also my favorite moment of the series so far has been Jaimes oh shit face when he saw Dany ride up on her Dragon and burn everything in Spoils of War. As much as I like him, I loved him FINALLY being on the losing side and getting just desserts.

[AshleyN]

21 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Interesting.

I think a mitigating factor in the hunt for a director, though, is that the Special Effects crew of GOT has advanced some of the techniques to the point that I'm not sure a director is a driving factor in the big action episodes.  I could be wrong, I really know nothing about film-making, but of everything that I've seen (merely as a viewer) on this show, the sheer awesomeness of the special effects appears to have more to do with the spectacle, rather than what the actors are doing within the spectacle.   It would seem that it's more in the preparation and set up (i.e. the dragons buzzing Jon on the walkway at Dragonstone), than a director telling Kit how to play that scene.  Of course, I'd welcome any correction of my misconceptions from someone who is more knowledgeable about television production(s). 

You're right in a sense: I think people sometimes underestimate the collaborative nature of film and television when talking about directors (especially television, where the showrunners tend to wield more control anyway). But I think the choice of director can have an impact on sequences like this, though I admit I'm not really knowledgeable enough about filmmaking to articulate it all the way. The most obvious GoT example comes from Battle of the Bastards, where the sequence in which Jon gets trampled (for me the most visceral and terrifying part of the whole thing) was an improvisation that Miguel Sapochnik came up with on the set. There's also something like The Spoils of War, where if you watch the Inside the Episode, you'll see that Shakman talked about wanting to frame the battle from the point of view of the people on the wrong end of a dragon/Dothraki attack, which is why you get shots like that long take of Bronn running through the chaos (BotB had a similar shot following Jon, who was clearly our POV character in that battle). I also rewatched the Hardhome sequence recently and noticed that Sapochnik chose to shoot parts of it in a way very reminiscent of a horror movie, which was fitting considering this was our first time experiencing the true apocalyptic nightmare that the White Walkers and their army represent.

6 hours ago, Nash said:

As for Jaime; he's going to have a fraught time not getting lynched at Winterfell except for two things. Bran will probably forgive him and the Northern Lords will respect the fact that he has ridden north to keep a promise. I don't expect him to survive but I do think he might expiate his guilt by becoming the Kingslayer for the second time and killing the Night King; that or he'll get close and open the way for Jon Targstark to get the killing blow in. He's clearly struggling with his conscience and has never been as vile as, say, the Boltons. 

I apologise for several posts but it helps me keep focused

This reminds me that Jaime and Bran was kind of an overlooked reunion that I always thought would be interesting to see, but wasn't sure would actually happen. The show version at least will lose some impact since RoboBran probably won't care that much about what Jaime did to him, but I'll be interested to see what kind of reaction Jaime has. Especially since BookJaime, for all people like to talk about his redemption arc, has never shown even the slightest amount of remorse or regret for what he did to Bran.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

If there is one moment I'm going to thoroughly savor in season 8, it will be Jamie meeting Jon again. Considering that their biggest interaction was back at the beginning of season one, with Jamie's insulting greeting to Jon just before he left for the Wall, and the mocking he showed about the things on the other side, I'm looking forward to seeing him placing himself in Jon's and Dany's service and acknowledging that he'd been very, very wrong.

I am so looking forward to that. I thought Jon would throw that barb back in Jaime's face at the dragon pit because you know, I would, because I'm a petty person. I'm also looking forward to Jaime the other part of things, Jaime talking about poor dead not so honorable Ned who fathered a bastard. (Bran being shoved out the window, though I don't think Bran gives a rat's ass about that anymore)

I've been wondering how he's going to fare in the type of battle that we've seen so far against the wights where they just come at someone on every side. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Nash]

Well, now then redemption. Here we go eh?

Call me old fashioned but I really really do hope that in the series at least we see a genuine win for the forces of good and in the course of it Jaime redeems himself. In fact I hope he's not the only one. 

If we don't then it won't have progressed much beyond the Bolton dungeon and endless bloody tortures. What does it say about the series (and us), when one of the scenes that had people saying "yes!" was when a man is fed to his own dogs? 

The cynic in me says that Jaime will be a natural wight fighter simply because. 

[TarotQueen]

1 hour ago, AshleyN said:

This reminds me that Jaime and Bran was kind of an overlooked reunion that I always thought would be interesting to see, but wasn't sure would actually happen. The show version at least will lose some impact since RoboBran probably won't care that much about what Jaime did to him, but I'll be interested to see what kind of reaction Jaime has. Especially since BookJaime, for all people like to talk about his redemption arc, has never shown even the slightest amount of remorse or regret for what he did to Bran.

I wonder if Jaime ever thinks about Bran in comparison to Tommen.

D&D have their flaws, but they do have these little symmetry points they create as well.

[thegreathoo]

In first 5 minutes of 801 I want to see a scene where Dany is about to fly off with Drogon and is talking to Tyrion, on some cliff.  Tyrion is spitting some clever advice as usual that takes 5 minutes.  Dany replies, Okay, and mounts Drogon.  Drogon turns his head to Tyrion, and fries him to ashes.  Goodbye Tyrion!

Second thing I want to see in 801 is Cersei getting imprisoned in some dungeon in KL by a character similar to Ramsey, who flays her piece by piece to death for the remaining 6 episodes.

Then, we can get on with the show.

Edited September 4, 2017 by thegreathoo

[Nash]

I think the character in KL who is similar to Ramsey Bolton is Cersei herself. 

[Remmy20]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

If there is one moment I'm going to thoroughly savor in season 8, it will be Jamie meeting Jon again. Considering that their biggest interaction was back at the beginning of season one, with Jamie's insulting greeting to Jon just before he left for the Wall, and the mocking he showed about the things on the other side, I'm looking forward to seeing him placing himself in Jon's and Dany's service and acknowledging that he'd been very, very wrong.

I actually thought Jaime was mostly right. Jon was talking about joining the Night's Watch with stars in his eyes and Jaime knew it wasn't going to be as glorious as Jon thought it would be from his own experience with the Kingsguard. I believe Jaime was certainly wrong about some things like you mentioned, but his overall point was correct or else Jon wouldn't have bailed like he did.     

The revelation that Jon is Rhaegar's kid could be interesting for Jaime, though.

2 hours ago, AshleyN said:

 Especially since BookJaime, for all people like to talk about his redemption arc, has never shown even the slightest amount of remorse or regret for what he did to Bran.

I don't know if that is quite true. There's a line in A Storm of Swords that would appear to hint at some regret/remorse to me.

Quote

"I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it. That boy in Winterfell..."

Edited September 4, 2017 by Remmy20

[AshleyN]

On a more minor note, I wonder who's going to wield Heartsbane? There must have been a reason for Sam to take it. Of the major "warrior" characters Jon, Brienne, and Jaime already have Valyrian steel blades (as does Arya), and Beric's flaming sword is too cool to take away from him, which leaves...The Hound, Jorah, and Tormund? Bronn too I guess, but I can't really see it being him.

[Nash]

And...the whole Kingslayer thing was the result of a quite moral choice, I think. 

[Nash]

2 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

On a more minor note, I wonder who's going to wield Heartsbane? There must have been a reason for Sam to take it. Of the major "warrior" characters Jon, Brienne, and Jaime already have Valyrian steel blades (as does Arya), and Beric's flaming sword is too cool to take away from him, which leaves...The Hound, Jorah, and Tormund? Bronn too I guess, but I can't really see it being him.

Bit like sharing out the treasure in AD&D! I'd say Jorah seems happy with two dragonglass daggers and it's not quite Tormund's style.  My bet is on The Hound and that he later uses it on his brother. 

About the flaming sword - it's not a wildfire trick is it? More of a full on +3 flaming bastard sword. 

As an aside I just made a Beric Dondarrion in 28mm from various plastic wargames figures. I may paint the eye patch on rather than trying to make one :-) 

[herbz]

Book!Jaime is ashamed of what he did to Bran- doesn't dwell on it much, but it's in there. I will feel so short changed if we don't get an awkward conversation about the whole thing in Season 8. Do we reckon Bran tells the rest of his family? He hasn't yet. Can't see Jaime lasting 5 seconds in Arya's presence if so. 

I always thought that the Season 1 Jon and Jaime scene was more indicative of Jaime's own self loathing than anything else. 'It's only for life' and all that. Absolutely everyone thought the Night's Watch was a joke and that grumpkins and snarks were well, grumpkins and snarks. Tyrion just said it in a much less dickish way. I wondered why they put that in there given that it's not a scene that appears in the books. It'll be interesting to see them interact again. 

Jaime's huge guilt over not being able to protect Rhaegar's wife and children really should've been included in the show. He thinks about it all the time and has that dream sequence with Rhaegar's ghost before going back to Harrenhal for Brienne-it would make him finding out about Jon so interesting. Suppose they can always drop a line of exposition. 

(In hindsight though, I'm majorly judging show!Rhaegar for leaving his cast aside wife and kids with his deranged father with only a 17 year old boy-who was himself a hostage of said deranged father- to protect them, while he posted Arthur Dayne and the other Kingsguard outside the Tower of Joy. Douche move.)

Edited September 4, 2017 by herbz

[Oscirus]

22 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

On a more minor note, I wonder who's going to wield Heartsbane? There must have been a reason for Sam to take it. Of the major "warrior" characters Jon, Brienne, and Jaime already have Valyrian steel blades (as does Arya), and Beric's flaming sword is too cool to take away from him, which leaves...The Hound, Jorah, and Tormund? Bronn too I guess, but I can't really see it being him.

Bronn or Pod (has to be some reason we see him training all the time), possibly  Tormund.

[herbz]

I'm also wondering who will be the one to take out Cersei in the end. I thought like everyone else it would be Jaime (excluding the 'valonqar' part of the prophecy in the show made me even more convinced it'd be him as it'd be a shock to non book readers that way), but he's just headed North. Seems almost redundant to finally have him break away 3 seasons late just to turn back around to kill her. He also doesn't really seem to be in an emotional place where he'd do it either? I always thought it might be an Aerys 2.0 situation, but the sting has been taken out of that scenario now given that she's done similar with the sept.

So, just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, if it won't be Jaime, who gets to do the honors? Euron? Arya? The Mountain? 

Edited September 4, 2017 by herbz

[GraceK]

Well, Euron is a younger brother right? That would be a twist if it's Euron who kills her. 

[YaddaYadda]

Are those archmaesters coming back in season 8, or are we done with them now that Sam and Bran might become this power couple when it comes to sifting through the Branternet for information?

[Blonde Gator]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Are those archmaesters coming back in season 8, or are we done with them now that Sam and Bran might become this power couple when it comes to sifting through the Branternet for information?

No more Maesters.  Too bad Marwyn the Mage never showed up.  So many questions, so little time.  Who was Quaithe?  And so on.

[AshleyN]

8 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Are those archmaesters coming back in season 8, or are we done with them now that Sam and Bran might become this power couple when it comes to sifting through the Branternet for information?

Speaking of which, will they continue to have everyone overlook the most obvious use for Bran's powers - checking out how the White Walkers were defeated last time around?

[Nash]

Please don't rush to ask questions; a raven informs me that discussions are in hand as to the formation of a committee to explore the potential advantages of identifying appropriate questions that may - in the fullness of time - be presented to the Three....to the alleged, Three Eyed Raven. 

I trust that will suffice for now? 

Perhaps someone should ask Bran as to when the next book is coming out? 

[paigow]

Did Sansa kill / release the dogs that ate Ramsey? Or did she re-train them? They might be handy against zombies...until they get killed and re-animated by the Night King....

Edited September 5, 2017 by paigow

[Blonde Gator]

28 minutes ago, Nash said:

Please don't rush to ask questions; a raven informs me that discussions are in hand as to the formation of a committee to explore the potential advantages of identifying appropriate questions that may - in the fullness of time - be presented to the Three....to the alleged, Three Eyed Raven. 

I trust that will suffice for now? 

Perhaps someone should ask Bran as to when the next book is coming out? 

In that regard, Bran is NOT a reliable narrator.

[Brn2bwild]

One thing that bothers me: Daenerys, Jon, and Cersei promising "their" armies will fight the white walkers.  

Unless I've missed something, those armies aren't a monolithic bloc.  Hasn't the show gone out of its way to mention that the Unsullied, Lannister troups, etc. are individuals with a free will?  Why then would they just offer them up to fight the white walkers without even warning them what they could face?  They wouldn't be facing a conventional army, but one that could turn their fallen comrades into enemies that could kill them.  If their free will is to be respected, they deserve the right to know.  Shouldn't Dany, at least, fully warn her troops what the threat consists of and offer them the opportunity to leave?  

My hope is that in early Season 8, Dany will do just that, and her troops will stay out of loyalty and desire to eliminate the threat, not because they're meant to be nameless fodder.

[MadMouse]

Jon and Jaime meeting has so many layers it could take up a whole episode. What I hope they do is bring up the fact how similar Ned, Jaime and now Jon are in regards to love, oaths, duty. The show loves callbacks, so I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get something similar to Ned and Cersei. If there was one man who could feel sympathy to Cersei being in love with the wrong man, it was Ned. And if there's one man who could understand Jon's conflict its Jaime.

[tangerine95]

26 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

One thing that bothers me: Daenerys, Jon, and Cersei promising "their" armies will fight the white walkers.  

Unless I've missed something, those armies aren't a monolithic bloc.  Hasn't the show gone out of its way to mention that the Unsullied, Lannister troups, etc. are individuals with a free will?  Why then would they just offer them up to fight the white walkers without even warning them what they could face?  They wouldn't be facing a conventional army, but one that could turn their fallen comrades into enemies that could kill them.  If their free will is to be respected, they deserve the right to know.  Shouldn't Dany, at least, fully warn her troops what the threat consists of and offer them the opportunity to leave?  

My hope is that in early Season 8, Dany will do just that, and her troops will stay out of loyalty and desire to eliminate the threat, not because they're meant to be nameless fodder.

Yeah I was hoping that we would get a scene of Dany offering her armies a choice because she always made it a point to before.They didn't exactly sign up for ice zombies so giving them an out would make sense.I mean I do think they would keep fighting for her since they're loyal and also because if the WW take over westeros they could probably find a way east at some point especially with an ice dragon.But it would have been nice to see her give them a choice again tho I think maybe we're meant to assume that happened offscreen since the commanders of her armies were present either at council meetings or in the dragon pit and are clearly aware what they're up against.

[glowbug]

That's not the way the military works in almost any society I can think of. Not in a feudal society and not in most present day democracies. You pledge your service to a person, family (house) or country/kingdom, and then whoever is in charge decides what battles to fight. Desertion is always an option, and far more common in feudal societies with no standing armies, but there are usually consequences if you're caught. Of course, it's in the ruler's best interest to rally the troops with a speech but giving them an option not to fight would be almost unheard of. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by glowbug

[anamika]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-samwell-tarly-interview.html

Actor John Bradley, who plays Samwell Tarley on Game of Thrones, discusses the revelation of Jon’s true identity and how/if it’ll change their relationship:

Quote

How do you think this is going to change his relationship with Jon Snow, who we now know to be Aegon Targaryen? Would he even still call him Jon? Would he start calling him Aegon, or “Egg”?

Calling him Egg, that would be a really nice circular continuation of the relationship between Sam and Jon and Maester Aemon. We learned during Maester Aemon’s death scene that he called his brother Aegon Egg. Maester Aemon had an Egg in his life, and now Sam has one as well. But all of this definitely does change Jon and Sam’s relationship, because the man Sam thought Jon was, in terms of what he represented in the world, that’s all changed. Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and that’s bound to change the way [Sam] perceives him and the future of the Seven Kingdoms. And that could affect Sam’s future as well, in a more positive way than he could anticipate. 

Awww! Sam now has an Egg in his life. Sam and Egg should be the new Dunk and Egg. Maybe that will be the ending of the series - Sam and Egg go off on adventures together.

Edited September 5, 2017 by anamika

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

That's not the way the military works in almost any society I can think of. Not in a feudal society and not in most present day democracies. You pledge your serve to a person, family (house) or country/kingdom, and then whoever is in charge decides what battles to fight. Desertion is always an option, and far more common in feudal societies with no standing armies, but there are usually consequences if you're caught. Of course, it's in the ruler's best interest to rally the troops with a speech but giving them an option not to fight would be almost unheard of. 

Militaries in most societies don't face a horde of ice zombies.

[Nash]

True but this is not a real world situation; fantasy soldiers exist in a world where all kinds of superstition and myth can suddenly appear and rip your mates head off. All you can do is hold the line and stand your ground.

As to any kind of democratic process or choice - forget it. You do what the liege lord / paymaster / charismatic but possibly unhinged young lady with the dragons tells you to or its mutiny and desertion. 

Ned Stark had a firm view on that sort of thing and he was a good guy. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Nash
Typo

[YaddaYadda]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/arts/television/game-of-thrones-samwell-tarly-interview.html

Actor John Bradley, who plays Samwell Tarley on Game of Thrones, discusses the revelation of Jon’s true identity and how/if it’ll change their relationship:

Awww! Sam now has an Egg in his life. Sam and Egg should be the new Dunk and Egg. Maybe that will be the ending of the series - Sam and Egg go off on adventures together.

This is so bittersweet. It will never not be sad that Maester Aemon never knew he had family with him at the Wall. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by YaddaYadda