Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[WindyNights]

19 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Nothing's worst than being unable to protect the ones you love- Brienne of Tarth

And when the shadow sword sliced through the green steel gorget and the blood began to flow, she saw that the dying king was not Renly after all but Jaime Lannister, and she had failed him.

[Tallulah7606]

Woah! I didn’t expect some sort of #metoo response to my post about Tormund and Brienne! I don’t get the ‘creepy’ accusations. He’s just a guy with a blatant crush-he’s done nothing other than look at her, it’s not an assault. It’s a bit of comic relief amongst all the bloodshed, every drama needs a small comedic factor in there every now and then. 

I don’t seriously believe they would get together, no, but that doesn’t mean to say it wouldn’t work-Jamie and Brienne together is is just a huge no for me. It’s too obvious a conclusion. Awkward, undesirable girl gets the ‘hunk’ that the queen bee wants? 

It’s not a teen movie. 

[John Potts]

43 minutes ago, Tallulah7606 said:

I didn’t expect some sort of #metoo response to my post about Tormund and Brienne! I don’t get the ‘creepy’ accusations. He’s just a guy with a blatant crush-he’s done nothing other than look at her, it’s not an assault. It’s a bit of comic relief amongst all the bloodshed

Given the enduring popularity of SanSan, it's one of the less creepy ships out there, really, particularly as Tormund is by Wildling standards practically a New Man. Didn't Ygritte say that Wildling courtship (let's say) doesn't exactly value consent ("A man can take a woman or take a knife, but not both?" or something similar).

[anamika]

 GOT 8 runtimes have been released:

Quote

Useful clarification: @OCSTV explained orally that the first two episodes of the final season of #GameOfThrones would last 60 minutes, and the next four episodes 80 minutes according to the latest HBO news

Episodes 1 and 2: 60 min each
Episodes 3,4,5, and 6 : 80 min each

Season 7 was 442 minutes long. Season 8 is approximately 440 minutes long. comes to about the same length.

Edited January 23, 2019 by anamika

[nikma]

I'm ok with this. It is more than I expected.

[anamika]

Considering we basically have characters grouped together now, 60 minutes each for the first two episodes should include:

- Scenes with Cersei in KL, Qyburn, Mountain, possibly golden company/Harry Strickland, Cersei miscarriage

- WF. Since the first scene is Jon/Dany getting there, we will get character reunions and conflicts here

- Wherever Jaime is. I don't think he is getting to WF immediately.

- Wherever Euron is

- Some shots to show the NK/AOTD progressing to WF.

Edited January 23, 2019 by anamika

[WindyNights]

22 hours ago, Tallulah7606 said:

Woah! I didn’t expect some sort of #metoo response to my post about Tormund and Brienne! I don’t get the ‘creepy’ accusations. He’s just a guy with a blatant crush-he’s done nothing other than look at her, it’s not an assault. It’s a bit of comic relief amongst all the bloodshed, every drama needs a small comedic factor in there every now and then. 

I don’t seriously believe they would get together, no, but that doesn’t mean to say it wouldn’t work-Jamie and Brienne together is is just a huge no for me. It’s too obvious a conclusion. Awkward, undesirable girl gets the ‘hunk’ that the queen bee wants? 

It’s not a teen movie. 

Well Jaime x Brienne isn't happening either. Jaime's going to die. It's likely that Brienne is going to be single at the end.

[whateverdgaf]

34 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Well Jaime x Brienne isn't happening either. Jaime's going to die. It's likely that Brienne is going to be single at the end.

NCW is a big J/B shipper and has gone on record saying that the final season is almost perfect, plus Gwen and NCW have had extremely similar filming schedules. I expect it will go canon even if Jaime does die. The fact that the writers took every opportunity to reunite Brienne and Jaime and included scenes such as Bronn and Cersei commentating on their love for each other definitely makes me think there will be a Jaime Brienne romance next season. And I think it is important for Brienne's character. Because of her lifestyle and her appearance she has been treated as unworthy of romance, which is actually something she wants quite deeply considering how happy she was dancing at her ball before she found out it was a trick, and how she joined Renly's Kingsguard. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by whateverdgaf

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well Jaime x Brienne isn't happening either. Jaime's going to die. It's likely that Brienne is going to be single at the end.

Jaime/Brienne can still "happen" even if Jaime ultimately dies. They can declare their mutual love, make out, bang, whatever.

I'm a little disappointed about the episode lengths, but when you think about it, there isn't all that much to be done in the first two episodes except Winterfell drama, a Euron update, Cersei plotting (although she only has Qyburn and the Golden Company left to plot with), and maybe a scene with Jaime as he heads north. That's pretty thin gruel for 120 minutes' worth of screen time, even if every possible point of Winterfell drama--Jon bent the knee to Dany!!! Jon and Dany are in love and don't care who knows it!!! The Wall has fallen!!! Jon's the heir to the Iron Throne!!! Dany burned the Tarlys!!! Jaime wants to switch sides and Bran decides to tell everyone that Jaime crippled him!!!--gets its own separate screaming match.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Eyes High

[whoknowswho]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

 GOT 8 runtimes have been released:

Episodes 1 and 2: 60 min each
Episodes 3,4,5, and 6 : 80 min each

Season 7 was 442 minutes long. Season 8 is approximately 440 minutes long. comes to about the same length.

 

I keep reading how the 8th season is just like a bunch of movies. Well, if 2 episodes are no longer than 60 mins, it's a rip off. No movie runs 60 mins. No movie runs 80 mins either.  I'm completely disappointed, we'll have no road travel, just teleportation again. Last season was a rushed mess, and it appears so will this season be. The end, dammit I would have liked to see a couple 2 hour episodes. 60 mins will be cut to 53-54 mins so they can pile a bunch of commercials in. These characters we've loved so long, unless most die I don't see how this season can't be a rushed mess like last season.  :(  But if they don't give us more comedic gems of Sam swilling shit and food, I guess that's a good thing at least.

Edited January 23, 2019 by whoknowswho
because I can't read, apparently. Only 2 60 min eps.

[Minneapple]

2 hours ago, whoknowswho said:

60 mins will be cut to 53-54 mins so they can pile a bunch of commercials in. 

HBO doesn't show commercials.

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Jaime/Brienne can still "happen" even if Jaime ultimately dies. They can declare their mutual love, make out, bang, whatever.

I'm a little disappointed about the episode lengths, but when you think about it, there isn't all that much to be done in the first two episodes except Winterfell drama, a Euron update, Cersei plotting (although she only has Qyburn and the Golden Company left to plot with), and maybe a scene with Jaime as he heads north. That's pretty thin gruel for 120 minutes' worth of screen time, even if every possible point of Winterfell drama--Jon bent the knee to Dany!!! Jon and Dany are in love and don't care who knows it!!! The Wall has fallen!!! Jon's the heir to the Iron Throne!!! Dany burned the Tarlys!!! Jaime wants to switch sides and Bran decides to tell everyone that Jaime crippled him!!!--gets its own separate screaming match.

 

 It ends the same way. Brienne is still single at the end even if she does bang Jaime but I don't think it's going that's at all. 

 

You're more likely to see the climax of that relationship being Jaime knighting Brienne rather than them banging like animals until Brienne gets pregnant. But it could happen.

Edited January 23, 2019 by WindyNights

[nikma]

120 minutes episodes were never realistic.

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

but when you think about it, there isn't all that much to be done in the first two episodes except Winterfell drama, a Euron update, Cersei plotting (although she only has Qyburn and the Golden Company left to plot with), and maybe a scene with Jaime as he heads north. That's pretty thin gruel for 120 minutes' worth of screen time, even if every possible point of Winterfell drama--Jon bent the knee to Dany!!! Jon and Dany are in love and don't care who knows it!!! The Wall has fallen!!! Jon's the heir to the Iron Throne!!! Dany burned the Tarlys!!! Jaime wants to switch sides and Bran decides to tell everyone that Jaime crippled him!!!--gets its own separate screaming match.

 

So we sort of know that eps 3 and 5 are the probably the big battles at WF and KL and ep 6 is partly end battle and denouement. What do you guys think will happen in the David Nutter directed episode 4 that's also for 80 minutes?

It's also looking like none of our major characters are dying till the very last episode - so there's not much going to be much exploration of grief or sadness in between - unless the big Jaime/Cersei confrontation and the end for Cersei comes in episode 4. There was the leak that Jaime dies in episode 4 and NCW's contract which indicated that he would be in only 4 episodes.

Broadly it could go this way:

- Character drama for episodes 1,2 at KL and WF

- WF battle in episode 3. Characters move south.

- The Cersei resolution in episode 4. Good guys take KL.

- AOTD attack KL, defense of KL in episode 5,6

- Continuation of battle and denouement in episode 6.

Edited January 24, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

59 minutes ago, anamika said:

So we sort of know that eps 3 and 5 are the probably the big battles at WF and KL and ep 6 is partly end battle and denouement. What do you guys think will happen in the David Nutter directed episode 4 that's also for 80 minutes?

It's also looking like none of our major characters are dying till the very last episode - so there's not much going to be much exploration of grief or sadness in between - unless the big Jaime/Cersei confrontation and the end for Cersei comes in episode 4. There was the leak that Jaime dies in episode 4 and NCW's contract which indicated that he would be in only 4 episodes.

Broadly it could go this way:

- Character drama for episodes 1,2 at KL and WF

- WF battle in episode 3. Characters move south.

- The Cersei resolution in episode 4. Good guys take KL.

- AOTD attack KL, defense of KL in episode 5,6

- Continuation of battle and denouement in episode 6.

I don't think we know much about what happens in 8x04 and 8x06.

8x05 I expect will be devoted to the KL exterior scenes that took more than two months to film (starting in late April and ending in early July). Much has been made of the night shoots taking 55 nights to film, but I think the KL exterior scenes for 8x05 (and possibly 8x06 as well, I'm less clear on that) took a heck of a long time as well.

The only possible 8x04 scenes we know about are the Jon/Cersei scene in Dubrovnik and whatever Kit and Emilia filmed in Iceland. Both scenes took very little time to shoot, so the bulk of the episode--and 80 minutes is an awfully long time without a big battle or some other sequence in there--will be devoted to other things.

The only 8x06 scenes that we know about are the Seville Dragonpit scene (Tyrion's trial, apparently) and the 8x06 scene filmed on a new set in March in James Hibberd's presence.

[anamika]

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The only possible 8x04 scenes we know about are the Jon/Cersei scene in Dubrovnik and whatever Kit and Emilia filmed in Iceland. Both scenes took very little time to shoot, so the bulk of the episode--and 80 minutes is an awfully long time without a big battle or some other sequence in there--will be devoted to other things.

 

I think someone here brought it up earlier,  but I would not put it past D&D to give Cersei a 30 minute death scene as she wanders around a desolate Red Keep giving a dying speech like in a Shakespearean tragedy.

[whoknowswho]

20 hours ago, Minneapple said:

HBO doesn't show commercials.

I guess I knew that, I watch on Crave or Kodi, but usually the episodes are around 54 mins.  However, they often have a "previously on Game of Thrones", which cuts 2 or 3 minutes off the front of the episode.

[Minneapple]

21 hours ago, nikma said:

120 minutes episodes were never realistic.

Yeah. That would literally be producing six full feature-length films. 

[glowbug]

Feature-length is defined differently by different organizations. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences defines feature-length as 40 minutes or longer while the Screen Actors Guild defines feature length as 80 minutes or longer. I would say the last four episodes are feature length but the first two are not by most organizational standards.

[bubble sparkly]

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think we know much about what happens in 8x04 and 8x06.

Maybe 8x04 is going to be when they throw in all the sex scenes for the season lol?  I mean, it's GOT so we know there's likely to be a few.  Besides, after the Winterfell battle but before the KL battle is probably the best time.

Jon and Dany can have "we're alive, we're related and don't GAF, and we're probably having a baby" sex, Jaime and Brienne can have a romantic interlude before his probable death, Bronn might visit a prostitute, and Missandei and Greyworm can do "many things" again.

[whateverdgaf]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 12:58 AM, anamika said:

It's also looking like none of our major characters are dying till the very last episode - so there's not much going to be much exploration of grief or sadness in between - unless the big Jaime/Cersei confrontation and the end for Cersei comes in episode 4. There was the leak that Jaime dies in episode 4 and NCW's contract which indicated that he would be in only 4 episodes

There was a second page that showed he was paid for six episodes. I think the leads get paid for all episodes no matter what, but there is nothing to indicate NCW will only be in four.

[anamika]

 

So Lena Headey implies that GOT filmed till October 2018 and that she was the 12th cast member out. Interesting. That means Lena has done quite a bit of filming and is probably among the last cast members to finish up on the show. If I recall right, Thor was still filming in June I think.

[SimoneS]

I think all the main characters make it to episode six. I have always believed that Jamie and Cersei will have one more confrontation before they both die. 

[WindyNights]

King Bran now has a 60% chance at Bovada.

 

-150 = 60%. Daenerys has dropped drastically to even below even Sansa,  Tyrion and the Night King.

 

[tangerine95]

Those are really strong odds for Bran,it could be insider betting because he's such a weird choice.It would certainly be unpredictable.But I just have a really hard time imagining it.I mean a character that's been the most neglected out of all the main characters,that skipped a whole season and then ends up as king.Plus I really dislike the idea that the endgame ruler would be an all seeing,all knowing magical being.Kinda makes all that stuff about learning to rule and making mistakes pointless imo.

[WindyNights]

42 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Those are really strong odds for Bran,it could be insider betting because he's such a weird choice.It would certainly be unpredictable.But I just have a really hard time imagining it.I mean a character that's been the most neglected out of all the main characters,that skipped a whole season and then ends up as king.Plus I really dislike the idea that the endgame ruler would be an all seeing,all knowing magical being.Kinda makes all that stuff about learning to rule and making mistakes pointless imo.

Well if you want to believe Feldman and GRRM's approval of him, they're not learning arcs. GRRM is just using them as an exploration of power and their character.

 

It'll probably be a Stark triumvirate if that stuff is true.

Sophie said something like "Sansa and Arya now realize they work very well together and Bran too. It's kind of a threesome. They make the perfect unit "

Edited January 26, 2019 by WindyNights

[Leila6]

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

It'll probably be a Stark triumvirate if that stuff is true.

Trying to resign myself to the fact that that is the most likely ending, and I will deeply regret investing so much time and mental energy into this show and ASOIAF. I find nothing satisfying about a god-king ruling with “political genius” Sansa pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Serious question: I wonder how much of the fan base in general actually would like that. I doubt D&D didn’t consider the fan reaction when writing the ending. But, of course, they could have been constrained by GRRM’s ending and had little choice. 

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Leila6 said:

Serious question: I wonder how much of the fan base in general actually would like that. I doubt D&D didn’t consider the fan reaction when writing the ending. But, of course, they could have been constrained by GRRM’s ending and had little choice. 

Does it matter what anyone wants? In terms of the show, 99% of the viewers are the general audience who swallow anything this show does. And in terms of fans, they are plenty divided on who they are rooting for or what ending they want. And I'm pretty sure the same is true for the book fans. Just because you don't personally get the ending you want doesn't mean it was a waste of time.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Leila6 said:

Trying to resign myself to the fact that that is the most likely ending, and I will deeply regret investing so much time and mental energy into this show and ASOIAF. I find nothing satisfying about a god-king ruling with “political genius” Sansa pulling the strings behind the scenes.

Why does anyone think this is happening? For Brovada - "Wager will be settled based on the confirmed 'King' or 'Queen' of the Andals and the First Men. If there is no King or Queen, whomever rules or controls King's Landing will be deemed the winner."

If we are using the Brovada betting site to predict the endgame, then the one thing that's constant is the very high odds for Bran becoming King on the Iron Throne or ruler/controller of Westeros.  Not Sansa, Arya, Dany, Tyrion etc. Just Bran. Fans tacking Sansa along with Bran have no basis in these betting leads. Those are fan theories.  If this is based on insider information and someone knowing something or seeing the final scene or an important scene, then Sansa should have been right there at the top next to Bran if she is the true ruler and Bran is just an emotionless robo-pawn.

Why does God King Bran even need Sansa? 'Political genius' Sansa got manipulated last season by LF and needed the God King's help to finally understand that LF was not a good guy and was deliberately pitting her against her family. The God King on the show is powerful enough to do his own ruling. He can see through time and space, change events to suit his needs, stop war and conflict before it happens, know who is good and who is evil. He does not need Sansa to pull the strings, he can do that himself.

And if Jon/Dany are out of the picture, it's very likely that the wiser, smarter Sam and Davos are going to be hanging around to help Bran with the everyday grind of ruling. Sam already very quickly helped out Bran at the end of last season and as we know from the books, he is very good at manipulation and pulling the strings. Bran quickly told Sam all the deets. For the Starks, we could have Bran in KL, Arya in WF and Sansa in the Vale.  But the show has to make a case for the rest of Westeros accepting Bran as ruler.

I can see 3ER on the Iron Throne in the books. Book Bran is still an important character with lots of story to tell and is one of the few characters in the books with an actual arc of ruling and making mistakes and understanding that ruling is hard - as GRRM puts it. He is starting to understand that with great power, comes great responsibility.

The show however has decimated Bran in favor of his more popular sisters. So, if this is the ending, I am not sure how satisfying it is going to be for the general audience. Could explain the reactions of a lot of the cast. I once again point to these interviews of the cast at the Emmys and their reactions to the ending:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMR9ZHDRmVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh4hnFKaHs

Look at Emilia's reaction! And Liam's.

Liam also mentioned that not everything will be tied up neatly in a ball and Kit recently stated that 'it ends satisfyingly and it all sort of tapers out really....' and Joe Dempsie mentioned that - "It’s an ending I don’t think many people will be expecting and I think, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy".

But 3ER/God King Bran on the Iron Throne is pretty much the same story as Herbert's Dune Series and the ending would be exactly the same as Children of Dune. That would be one of my issues with it.

My other issue being that the Starks are very connected to the North and WF in the books. Bran is the Starkiest Stark, has ruled WF and the North and has closest connection to the Old Gods and the weirwoods. Arya comes a close second - she has a direwolf, can warg, can communicate with Bran through the weirwoods, has a good understanding of how Ned did things and the old sayings in the North. These characters are inherently very Northern and have remained so over 5 books. Hell, Arya executes Dareon all the way over in Braavos for deserting the NW.  So it's hard for me to visualize Bran in KL and the Iron Throne. Unless the capital moves to the North. If the Others are permanently defeated, them including the lands of always winter could make Westeros bigger and shift the capital further North.

Anyways, I would not discount King Bran on the Iron Throne. It's an ending that I could see happen in the books. But I also think that Tyrion is going to survive and go off into the sunset. Even if he is involved in some kind of betrayal.

I came across this quote from GRRM about how these characters all have some part of him in there and I think at the end of the day, he will do them justice. 

Quote

Years and years later, when Wild Cards came around, I would use Bayonne and 35 East First Street to flesh out a character named Thomas Tudbury, elsewise known as the Great and Powerful Turtle. “Yes,” I would admit sheepishly when asked, “I am Tom Tudbury, only without the kickass teke.”

And that’s true, and that’s false.

Tommy’s me … but no more than all the others. Robb is me in “Song for Lya,” as Dirk is me in Dying of the Light … though Arkin Ruark and Jaan Antony in that one are both me as well. Abner Marsh is me, as his proud sidewheeler Fevre Dream is the excursion boat to Far Rockaway, only the passengers drink blood instead of Kool-Aid. Sandy Blair is J-school me, Peter Norten is chess club me, Kenny Dorchester is me trying to lose weight. Holt in “The Stone City,” he’s the kid lying in the grass, staring up at distant stars. Trager is me on a dark night of the soul, bleeding poison from three wounds named Josie, Laurel, Rita. Jon Snow has me in him, and Sam Tarly. The women too, Lyanna and Shaara, and the girls, Arya and Adara … Daenerys Stormborn, searching for that house with the red door. And Tyrion Lannister? Oh, yes. The Imp is me in spades, the horny little bastard.” -GRRM

Edited January 27, 2019 by anamika

[anamika]

So possible endings:

• Tyrion tricks everyone like Lann the Clever and heads off on new adventures, new books, lots of wine and whores and will probably die an old man in his bed
• Jon, Dany and baby head off for the house with the red door if they survive. Or, they die and baby survives.
• Poor Bran takes on the hard job of rebuilding/leading Westeros. He could be acting as regent for the Targ baby. Dany's soldiers stay back to help the regent.
• Arya takes over rebuilding/leading the North and she could be taking care of Targ baby if Jon/Dany die
• I can see the role reversed with Arya in KL and Bran in WF. When GRRM said - " if a 12 year old has to conquer the world, so be it" - he could mean either Arya or Bran. As per these betting odds, it looks like Bran.
• Sansa makes an alliance with the Vale and is de-facto ruler of the Vale
• Jaime/Cersei die and Brienne either heads off to Tarth or on adventures with a new squire. Or is stuck with Sansa in the Vale.
• Sam/Davos etc. are stuck with the rulers as advisers. And I think that covers everyone.

Edited January 27, 2019 by anamika

[WindyNights]

50 minutes ago, anamika said:

Why does anyone think this is happening? For Brovada - "Wager will be settled based on the confirmed 'King' or 'Queen' of the Andals and the First Men. If there is no King or Queen, whomever rules or controls King's Landing will be deemed the winner."

If we are using the Brovada betting site to predict the endgame, then the one thing that's constant is the very high odds for Bran becoming King on the Iron Throne or ruler/controller of Westeros.  Not Sansa, Arya, Dany, Tyrion etc. Just Bran. Fans tacking Sansa along with Bran have no basis in these betting leads. Those are fan theories.  If this is based on insider information and someone knowing something or seeing the final scene or an important scene, then Sansa should have been right there at the top next to Bran if she is the true ruler and Bran is just an emotionless robo-pawn.

Why does God King Bran even need Sansa? 'Political genius' Sansa got manipulated last season by LF and needed the God King's help to finally understand that LF was not a good guy and was deliberately pitting her against her family. The God King on the show is powerful enough to do his own ruling. He can see through time and space, change events to suit his needs, stop war and conflict before it happens, know who is good and who is evil. He does not need Sansa to pull the strings, he can do that himself.

And if Jon/Dany are out of the picture, it's very likely that the wiser, smarter Sam and Davos are going to be hanging around to help Bran with the everyday grind of ruling. Sam already very quickly helped out Bran at the end of last season and as we know from the books, he is very good at manipulation and pulling the strings. Bran quickly told Sam all the deets. For the Starks, we could have Bran in KL, Arya in WF and Sansa in the Vale.  But the show has to make a case for the rest of Westeros accepting Bran as ruler.

I can see 3ER on the Iron Throne in the books. Book Bran is still an important character with lots of story to tell and is one of the few characters in the books with an actual arc of ruling and making mistakes and understanding that ruling is hard - as GRRM puts it. He is starting to understand that with great responsibility, comes great power.

The show however has decimated Bran in favor of his more popular sisters. So, if this is the ending, I am not sure how satisfying it is going to be for the general audience. Could explain the reactions of a lot of the cast. I once again point to these interviews of the cast at the Emmys and their reactions to the ending:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMR9ZHDRmVI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxh4hnFKaHs

Look at Emilia's reaction! And Liam's.

Liam also mentioned that not everything will be tied up neatly in a ball and Kit recently stated that 'it ends satisfyingly and it all sort of tapers out really....' and Joe Dempsie mentioned that - "It’s an ending I don’t think many people will be expecting and I think, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy".

But 3ER/God King Bran on the Iron Throne is pretty much the same story as Herbert's Dune Series and the ending would be exactly the same as Children of Dune. That would be one of my issues with it.

My other issue being that the Starks are very connected to the North and WF in the books. Bran is the Starkiest Stark, has ruled WF and the North and has closest connection to the Old Gods and the weirwoods. Arya comes a close second - she has a direwolf, can warg, can communicate with Bran through the weirwoods, has a good understanding of how Ned did things and the old sayings in the North. These characters are inherently very Northern and have remained so over 5 books. Hell, Arya executes Dareon all the way over in Braavos for deserting the NW.  So it's hard for me to visualize Bran in KL and the Iron Throne. Unless the capital moves to the North. If the Others are permanently defeated, them including the lands of always winter could make Westeros bigger and shift the capital further North.

Anyways, I would not discount King Bran on the Iron Throne. It's an ending that I could see happen in the books. But I also think that Tyrion is going to survive and go off into the sunset. Even if he is involved in some kind of betrayal.

I came across this quote from GRRM about how these characters all have some part of him in there and I think at the end of the day, he will do them justice. 

Good points but Winterfell is being burned down next season. If the godswood goes with it then Winterfell is dead as the godswood is the heart of Winterfell. So I would expect the Starks to stay South. 

 

The King in the South?

[anamika]

4 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Good points but Winterfell is being burned down next season. If the godswood goes with it then Winterfell is dead as the godswood is the heart of Winterfell. So I would expect the Starks to stay South. 

 

The King in the South?

KL is also getting burned down next season. It so destroyed, that apparently the only place they could find to hold a trial is the dragonpit.

Winterfell is not going anywhere. It's where the story started and it's where it will end. I doubt the Godswood gets burned down. We shall see. But WF is the heart of the story, a place our main characters often think of fondly. It's not going anywhere. The Starks are going to be rebuilding it and the North. The Starks belong in the North. Not the south.

Edited January 27, 2019 by anamika

[bubble sparkly]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Winterfell is not going anywhere. It's where the story started and it's where it will end. I doubt the Godswood gets burned down. We shall see. But WF is the heart of the story, a place our main characters often think of fondly. It's not going anywhere. The Starks are going to be rebuilding it and the North. The Starks belong in the North. Not the south.

Yeah, I would be very surprised if the epilogue didn't show at least one Stark overseeing the rebuilding of Winterfell.  For example, Sansa walking through the courtyard in summery weather, giving instructions to a couple of builders and being greeted by some random Northerners etc.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I can see 3ER on the Iron Throne in the books. Book Bran is still an important character with lots of story to tell and is one of the few characters in the books with an actual arc of ruling and making mistakes and understanding that ruling is hard - as GRRM puts it. He is starting to understand that with great power, comes great responsibility.

The show however has decimated Bran in favor of his more popular sisters. So, if this is the ending, I am not sure how satisfying it is going to be for the general audience. Could explain the reactions of a lot of the cast. I once again point to these interviews of the cast at the Emmys and their reactions to the ending:

I would say that show!Bran has been an afterthought for the writers and casual viewers pretty much since he split up with Osha and Rickon.  The only memorable things that have happened since then are his ToJ vision, the Hodor thing, and seeing the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage.  It just seems like a really weird choice for D&D to backburner him if he is going to be the endgame ruler.

Bran actually proved to be a pretty good ruler when he was acting LOW back in s2.  He was fair and just and seemed quite willing to listen to advice from trusted older advisors.  However, back then Bran had compassion, empathy and actually cared about other people.  Robo!Bran doesn't even have enough humanity to realise that bringing up his sister's rape isn't exactly a great conversation starter.

Not to mention, Bran has shown numerous times that he doesn't have a good grasp of his powers and is nowhere close to being an all-knowing, omniscient being.  He needed to see the ToJ vision twice to get all the details as he somehow did not hear Lyanna tell Ned Jon's true name when he was in the room the first time!  Sam also needed to be the one to tell him about Rhaegar's annulment and marriage because he didn't get the memo.  Bran also did nothing about and/or didn't realise the extent of the Sansa and Arya situation last season.  Arya came very close to cutting Sansa'a face off and Sansa sent Brienne away so she and Littlefinger could get rid of Arya if necessary.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Not to mention, Bran has shown numerous times that he doesn't have a good grasp of his powers and is nowhere close to being an all-knowing, omniscient being.  He needed to see the ToJ vision twice to get all the details as he somehow did not hear Lyanna tell Ned Jon's true name when he was in the room the first time!  Sam also needed to be the one to tell him about Rhaegar's annulment and marriage because he didn't get the memo.  Bran also did nothing about and/or didn't realise the extent of the Sansa and Arya situation last season.  Arya came very close to cutting Sansa'a face off and Sansa sent Brienne away so she and Littlefinger could get rid of Arya if necessary.

We still have 6 episodes to go. Recall that Bran suddenly changed in the hiatus between season 6 and 7. When we catch up with Bran at the start of next season maybe he graduates from Padawan to Jedi Master.

Bran will definitely be very important in this last season as per the show itself. The Children of the Forest died protecting him.

Quote

Jojen Reed [to Bran]: “I have seen the only thing that matters… you." 
—3x02: "Dark Wings, Dark Words”

Meera Reed [to Bran]: “And if we lose you, we lose everything.”
—4x02: “The Lion and the Rose”

The Three-Eyed Raven [to Bran]: “You think I wanted to sit here for a thousand years, watching the world from a distance as the roots grew through me? […] I was waiting for you.” —6x03: “Oathbreaker”

Benjen Stark [to Bran]: “One way or another, he [the Night King] will find his way to the world of men. And when he does, you will be there waiting for him. And you will be ready.” —6x06: “Blood of My Blood”

Bran also features in show marketing with the other key characters He got a  'For the Throne' poster for season 8, whereas Sansa and Jaime did not get any. He was one of the characters highlighted in this HBO season 1-6 recap before season 7 along with Jon, Arya, Tyrion and Dany:

Edited January 27, 2019 by anamika

[Smad]

44 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Not to mention, Bran has shown numerous times that he doesn't have a good grasp of his powers and is nowhere close to being an all-knowing, omniscient being.  He needed to see the ToJ vision twice to get all the details as he somehow did not hear Lyanna tell Ned Jon's true name when he was in the room the first time!  Sam also needed to be the one to tell him about Rhaegar's annulment and marriage because he didn't get the memo.  Bran also did nothing about and/or didn't realise the extent of the Sansa and Arya situation last season.  Arya came very close to cutting Sansa'a face off and Sansa sent Brienne away so she and Littlefinger could get rid of Arya if necessary.

And this is why the Bran as King end game doesn't work. D&D seem to have real trouble with the actual magic that goes on in the world. Dragons are easy. But they have really failed with the Gods in this world. Lord of Light and Old Gods are still mainly abstract concepts in the shows whole run. They can't even explain the 3ER and it's power in it's basics, otherwise they would have used the opportunity last Season when Sansa asked Bran 'what does that mean?'. And for the most part they have used Bran as an exposition tool, rather than exploring what he might actually be capable of doing. He had vague visions of importance once which showed a dragon shadow over KL and the blowing up of the Sept. But that didn't really have any impact in the grand scheme of things. He might be able to affect the past but that's also been vague (Tower of Joy, Hodor) and not further explored. I'm not looking forward to that being dialed up to 11 next Season and all the explaining that would have to go with it when they had Seasons to go into it. But they HAVE TO do something useful with Bran and his powers and their reluctance to explore that thus far basically forces them to address it in the 11th hour.

Which is why God King Bran would be totally unbelievable IMO. They had Bran the God in S7 who did absolutely nothing. It's one thing to be above 'earthly' concerns or not caring about individuals. But him doing nothing of importance also means he's not terribly concerned with the world as a whole or the people in it. So what is the point of a God King? Why would anyone want someone like that to rule a continent? Who in their right mind would rally behind a King who doesn't care because he's above it all? And even then, he seems to be terribly limited in his abilities in that he's literally like Google. Unless you type in specific search parameters, you get nothing. Heck Sam discovered everything important just by reading books and Bran's information was lacking and wrong because he didn't read everything that was written on the website he visited. D&D simply don't have a handle on this character. I really can't see many viewers, general or fans, to get behind Bran as King.

Now if after all the battles the show ends with magic being essentially gone from the world and Bran loses these powers but not his knowledge, then I could totally see King Bran as he would be wise beyond anyone (he has all the history in his head) and would know how best to approach the future. But he would also be a human again who isn't above it all. That IMO would be a King everyone would accept and rally behind.

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, Smad said:

And this is why the Bran as King end game doesn't work. D&D seem to have real trouble with the actual magic that goes on in the world. Dragons are easy. But they have really failed with the Gods in this world. Lord of Light and Old Gods are still mainly abstract concepts in the shows whole run. They can't even explain the 3ER and it's power in it's basics, otherwise they would have used the opportunity last Season when Sansa asked Bran 'what does that mean?'. And for the most part they have used Bran as an exposition tool, rather than exploring what he might actually be capable of doing. He had vague visions of importance once which showed a dragon shadow over KL and the blowing up of the Sept. But that didn't really have any impact in the grand scheme of things. He might be able to affect the past but that's also been vague (Tower of Joy, Hodor) and not further explored. I'm not looking forward to that being dialed up to 11 next Season and all the explaining that would have to go with it when they had Seasons to go into it. But they HAVE TO do something useful with Bran and his powers and their reluctance to explore that thus far basically forces them to address it in the 11th hour.

Which is why God King Bran would be totally unbelievable IMO. They had Bran the God in S7 who did absolutely nothing. It's one thing to be above 'earthly' concerns or not caring about individuals. But him doing nothing of importance also means he's not terribly concerned with the world as a whole or the people in it. So what is the point of a God King? Why would anyone want someone like that to rule a continent? Who in their right mind would rally behind a King who doesn't care because he's above it all? And even then, he seems to be terribly limited in his abilities in that he's literally like Google. Unless you type in specific search parameters, you get nothing. Heck Sam discovered everything important just by reading books and Bran's information was lacking and wrong because he didn't read everything that was written on the website he visited. D&D simply don't have a handle on this character. I really can't see many viewers, general or fans, to get behind Bran as King.

Now if after all the battles the show ends with magic being essentially gone from the world and Bran loses these powers but not his knowledge, then I could totally see King Bran as he would be wise beyond anyone (he has all the history in his head) and would know how best to approach the future. But he would also be a human again who isn't above it all. That IMO would be a King everyone would accept and rally behind.

Bran mentions in season 7's draft scripts that House Stark and all their petty power struggles don't matter. Only stopping the the White Walkers from killing everyone matters so he must care about humanity as a whole if not the individuals.

I can't see King Bran happening without the magic. He'd just be a super smart but crippled 11 year old in the books. No one would follow him besides the North.

Edited January 27, 2019 by WindyNights

[Smad]

26 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Bran mentions in season 7's draft scripts that House Stark and all their petty power struggles don't matter. Only stopping the the White Walkers from killing everyone so he must care about humanity as a whole if not the individuals.

But this was a huge problem for me and why Bran the God doesn't work. If he is actually concerned about the bigger picture...why is it that the only thing he did in S7 was spy on the AotD and their movements? The army has been on the move since freaking S2. I don't need Bran to tell me that. The Wildlings are well aware and so is the Night's Watch. Bran wasn't shown to do anything in S7 to actually help with this problem. Why not look into the future and find out about the stupid weight plan, send a raven to Dragonstone and tell them not to be morons? I won't believe for a moment that the wall had to fall in order for Westeros to win against the AotD, especially since the wall would give the realm time to prepare. At least until the seas on either side of Westeros freeze over. Not to mention that it gave the NK a freaking dragon.

If he's supposedly so concerned, why not stop the Sansa/Arya conflict before it became a thing? That's not really serving the individual in so much as their quarrel hinders both of them to be effective. Instead of Arya playing games with LF and Sansa, she could have trained the children. She is small enough to pass as a child and trained well, her lessons might have helped a few people survive. Just like Sansa getting side tracked by all the nonsense is not exactly helpful for her as Jon's regent. LF should have been done for once Bran whipped out 'Chaos is a ladder' and people could have focused on what's important. Instead Bran spend his days doing nothing while the sister nonsense was going on.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Smad

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

But this was a huge problem for me and why Bran the God doesn't work. If he is actually concerned about the bigger picture...why is it that the only thing he did in S7 was spy on the AotD and their movements? The army has been on the move since freaking S2. I don't need Bran to tell me that. The Wildlings are well aware and so is the Night's Watch. Bran wasn't shown to do anything in S7 to actually help with this problem. Why not look into the future and find out about the stupid weight plan, send a raven to Dragonstone and tell them not to be morons? I won't believe for a moment that the wall had to fall in order for Westeros to win against the AotD, especially since the wall would give the realm time to prepare. At least until the seas on either side of Westeros freeze over. Not to mention that it gave the NK a freaking dragon.

If he's supposedly so concerned, why not stop the Sansa/Arya conflict before it became a thing? That's not really serving the individual in so much as their quarrel hinders both of them to be effective. Instead of Arya playing games with LF and Sansa, she could have trained the children. She is small enough to pass as a child and trained well, her lessons might have helped a few people survive. Just like Sansa getting side tracked by all the nonsense is not exactly helpful for her as Jon's regent. LF should have been done for once Bran whipped out 'Chaos is a ladder' and people could have focused on what's important. Instead Bran spend his days doing nothing while the sister nonsense was going on.

Bad writing probably.

I'll wait to see how GRRM writes Bran-God to judge how I feel about it all. 

[lorfor]

I'm not ignoring the betting odds. Its way too big a jump to ignore. Insider betting is  a real thing in Hollywood and often plagues film and television if you pay attention to it.

When season 7 ended Bran was 15/1. Dany was 3/1. He is now 6/4 and Dany 12/1. A massive jump for Bran and a massive fall for Dany, all in one offseason with no leaks, no pictures, limited interviews, nothing to go on. This is too much to ignore. Nobody is putting their hard earned money on random Bran for no reason.

It's not just Bovada either. Here's a list of all the odds and betting parlors As you can see Bran tops all of them. Dany has fallen through the floor on all of them. To be honest with you, the fact she has fallen so much while Jon has remained steady is an interesting thing. I'm not ready to say he lives and she dies, but it's an interesting thing to keep an eye on.

[onyxrose81]

I can't disregard the betting sites so if it turns out to be true about King Bran, I'll feel like I've wasted my time watching show, and I know how important Bran is in the actual books.  The General Audience is going to riot.  Good luck to HBO with those prequels.

[John Potts]

9 hours ago, lorfor said:

I'm not ignoring the betting odds. Its way too big a jump to ignore. Insider betting is  a real thing in Hollywood and often plagues film and television if you pay attention to it.

Yes, but market surges are a thing, too. Lots of people bought Enron shares because they believed that they couldn't lose on them - and ended up much poorer as a result. As soon as the idea is "in the market" that Bran might be King, money will move that way and that will shorten the odds. People start to see Bran's odds going down so they believe somebody must know something and more money goes that way, so the odds go down further. It's a classic speculative bubble.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and Bran really DOES end as King, but for my money, it's Jon all the way (possibly abdicating when his baby Starkgaryen comes of age).

[tangerine95]

25 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

I can't disregard the betting sites so if it turns out to be true about King Bran, I'll feel like I've wasted my time watching show, and I know how important Bran is in the actual books.  The General Audience is going to riot.  Good luck to HBO with those prequels.

Yeah I like Bran and he is important in the books a lot more than the show but I can't say it wouldn't be extremely disappointing for me and I don't see the set up at all.Especially if he's the same robotic,all knowing three eyed raven and it turns out that's what it takes to rule,someone who lost all humanity and emotion.

Edited January 28, 2019 by tangerine95

[ursula]

I'm still reeling over the realization that there's a "professional" betting system for "Who Dies/Wins?" on a tv show.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

I'm still reeling over the realization that there's a "professional" betting system for "Who Dies/Wins?" on a tv show.

Before Half-Blood Prince came out, bookies had to stop betting lines on who was going to die because a large number of bets on Dumbledore had come in from a town where they printed the HP books. Anytime a lot of bets come in one one side of things, it makes the bookies sit up and take notice. 

And there's betting on everything. Check out the list of prop bets for the Super Bowl. Will Gladys Knight have a hand-held microphone or a stand mic? Yes, you can place a bet on that!

[lorfor]

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

Yes, but market surges are a thing, too. Lots of people bought Enron shares because they believed that they couldn't lose on them - and ended up much poorer as a result. As soon as the idea is "in the market" that Bran might be King, money will move that way and that will shorten the odds. People start to see Bran's odds going down so they believe somebody must know something and more money goes that way, so the odds go down further. It's a classic speculative bubble.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and Bran really DOES end as King, but for my money, it's Jon all the way (possibly abdicating when his baby Starkgaryen comes of age).

I get what you're saying and it makes sense, however, this is not a new thing that is only a few weeks old. Bran has been at the top for months now in multiple parlors. While some of that could most definitely be attributed to what you mention, I don't think he would have this type of 6-10 month consistency at the top if it was based on speculative betting only.  Yet, no one else has ever caught him in that time period in these odds.

It looks like more than speculative betting to me, simply because considering the nature of the character and how unimaginable him coming out on top seemed at the conclusion of season 7. It's hard to imagine that the amount of people and/or amount being put down on him, is being done totally in the dark with no potential insider knowledge. There's been 8 years to bet on Bran in these kind of entertainment bets, and he's suddenly exploded to the top of heap in only the last 6 months which just so happen to fall right before the final season. Seems like an awfully big coincidence.

[porchini]

If you are one who believes that insider trading is happening and provides any kind of clues there's another thing that's kind of going under the radar because of the whole King Bran thing. It's the who will die in season 8 question.

In this question Dany is currently 4/11 at SkyBet and 1/3 at BetVictor. This means if you bet that Dany will die in season with SkyBet you currently sit at 73% chance of being correct, and if you bet Dany will die with BetVictor you are at a 75% chance of being correct.

In terms of the who will rule Westeros question, look at this way. If you currently put $1.00 USD on Dany you would win $13.00 USD. If you currently put $1.00 USD on Bran you would win $2.10 USD. You can see the massive gap between the two now in terms of the odds. I have no idea why any of this happening, but it's interesting to point out whether it's insider gambling or not.

[Leroux]

13 hours ago, lorfor said:

I'm not ignoring the betting odds. Its way too big a jump to ignore. Insider betting is  a real thing in Hollywood and often plagues film and television if you pay attention to it.

When season 7 ended Bran was 15/1. Dany was 3/1. He is now 6/4 and Dany 12/1. A massive jump for Bran and a massive fall for Dany, all in one offseason with no leaks, no pictures, limited interviews, nothing to go on. This is too much to ignore. Nobody is putting their hard earned money on random Bran for no reason.

It's not just Bovada either. Here's a list of all the odds and betting parlors As you can see Bran tops all of them. Dany has fallen through the floor on all of them. To be honest with you, the fact she has fallen so much while Jon has remained steady is an interesting thing. I'm not ready to say he lives and she dies, but it's an interesting thing to keep an eye on.

 

I am almost sure that Dany dies.  I am tempted to place a bet on it on that site. 

In preparation for the last season I started rereading since book 1 because several interviews from various characters have mention things like "back to the beginnings" and Arya in an interview mentioned how everything was related back to season 1, so it was very interesting to read again about the children of the forest and how the Starks relate to them and also to the Night King but what actually caught my eye more than once is how Dany at different times promises Drogo (IMO the love of her life) that "when the sun sets...... and when her womb quickens and she has a living g child, they will be back together" , she mentions this at least three times and promises it to him before she puts the pillow on his face and also as she is lightning up his funeral pyre. 

I have read so many theories were it is almost a given that next season she will be pregnant with Jon's baby and she will actually have a baby that I couldn't but help to think that there was a reason why George RR Martin has put so much emphasis on her promise to Drogo. I am not sure how she is going to die but I think she will fulfill her promise to Drogo and reunite with him in the afterlife.  I won't actually be upset about this ending because I honestly believe that they were a perfect couple and she knows that her baby will be loved and well taken care of by Jon. I figure this is the bittersweet ending that all of them have talked about. YMMV. 

[glowbug]

I think it’s pretty clear that Jon, the father of her child, is Dany’s true love. There’s some foreshadowing of their relationship in the books too. I think it’s telling that both in the show and the books Dany doesn’t really mourn or mention Drogo too much after the first book/season. If he’s meant to be her true love shouldn’t she bring him up more? Shouldn’t she be mourning longer over his death?

And it isn’t Dany who promises Drogo that they will be together again. Mirri Maz Duur prophecizes that Drogo will return to Dany when certain, seemingly impossible, things come to pass, including her womb quickening and bearing a living child. Dany and, I suspect, MMD both think the conditions of the prophecy can never be met and so they both believe Drogo will never return to Dany. In the books the prophecy is coming to pass, just not literally, so it’s likely Drogo will return to Dany in some way but it’s not clear how. They changed the prophecy in significant ways in the show. Dany asks when Drogo will be as he was rather than when he will return to her, and MMD says her prophecy but leaves out the part about her womb quickening and having a living child, and in the show the prophecy isn’t coming true. I do wonder why TPTB decided to leave out the parts they did and why they changed the end result of the prophecy from Drogo returning to Dany to Drogo being what he was. Is it because they didn’t know what was going to happen or because they thought it was giving too much of the plot away or some other reason. It’s mainly because of MMD’s prophecy in the books that I fear Dany will die in the end but her dying is only one possible way Drogo can be returned to her so it’s far from certain. One thing we can be pretty certain of is that Dany will have a child and the show has confirmed the father is Jon and I think that child will be significant in some way. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by glowbug

[Leroux]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

I think it’s pretty clear that Jon, the father of her child, is Dany’s true love. There’s some foreshadowing of their relationship in the books too. I think it’s telling that both in the show and the books Dany doesn’t really mourn or mention Drogo too much after the first book/season. If he’s meant to be her true love shouldn’t she bring him up more? Shouldn’t she be mourning longer over his death?

And it isn’t Dany who promises Drogo that they will be together again. Mirri Maz Duur prophecizes that Drogo will return to Dany when certain, seemingly impossible, things come to pass, including her womb quickening and bearing a living child. Dany and, I suspect, MMD both think the conditions of the prophecy can never be met and so they both believe Drogo will never return to Dany. In the books the prophecy is coming to pass, just not literally, so it’s likely Drogo will return to Dany in some way but it’s not clear how. They changed the prophecy in significant ways in the show. Dany asks when Drogo will be as he was rather than when he will return to her, and MMD says her prophecy but leaves out the part about her womb quickening and having a living child, and in the show the prophecy isn’t coming true. I do wonder why TPTB decided to leave out the parts they did and why they changed the end result of the prophecy from Drogo returning to Dany to Drogo being what he was. Is it because they didn’t know what was going to happen or because they thought it was giving too much of the plot away or some other reason. It’s mainly because of MMD’s prophecy in the books that I fear Dany will die in the end but her dying is only one possible way Drogo can be returned to her so it’s far from certain. One thing we can be pretty certain of is that Dany will have a child and the show has confirmed the father is Jon and I think that child will be significant in some way. 

 

I do agree, IMO their child is the song of Ice and Fire. 

I am reading the books back from the first one so maybe my perception is based on the book that I just finished but in that first book Dany does promise Drago that they will be together again and that is why it stroke me hard seeing all the predictions that Dany will finally have a child. 

I don't think that Jon wants to rule the Iron Throne and honestly I think that he will for a very short while while he splits the kingdoms apart. Another possibility is that he rules as a regent until his son/daughter can became the ruler. Another one of the predictions on the house of the undying has Dany getting close to the Iron Throne but not sitting there so that is why I think that her demise/death will put and end to her claim. 

I never particularly thought of GOT as a romantic story. what always fascinated me was the politics involved in it and how wonderful George RR Martin is at creating all the AU that surrounds it, for me it was always about about how the small folk get dragged into this stupid wars and suffer the most no matter who rules. IMO based on the book and the TV series Danny is and will always be a conqueror not a ruler and I doubt that George RR Martin will put her in the throne at the end. 

Jon has never wanted power and that is why he would be the chosen ruler, the one who will put and end to all of this by splitting the kingdoms apart and retiring to live a simple life in some small place raising his child and just being happy to be a simple man.  In an ideal world probably Jon and Danny will end up together ruling the Sven kingdoms with their children and happily ever after but I will be very surprised if that is that case because there are no happy endings in George RR Martin stories, just cautionary tales about power and greediness and the unintended consequences where no one is ever good or bad. 

[Minneapple]

28 minutes ago, Leroux said:

I do agree, IMO their child is the song of Ice and Fire.

I don't know about the baby, but Jon's is the song of Ice and Fire. He's a Targaryen and a Stark.