Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I have a hunch that Brienne's destiny is to become the first female Lord Commander of the King/Queensguard and as such, the responsibility for The White Book becomes hers; she'll be the one who records Jaime's heroic deeds within its pages. How the act he's reviled for - killing The Mad King - saved the lives of the people of Kings Landing, how he learned to be a better person; saving her from being gang raped and losing a hand for it, rescuing her from being mauled to death, keeping his oath to Catelyn Stark by sending her to find and get Sansa to safety and giving her a sword forged from the Stark family sword, Ice, to do so, not to mention the heroic stuff he's gonna do, plus imo he's definitely gonna be killed *whilst performing a heroic act, in S8.

I like this, make it happen! :)

[whateverdgaf]

I hope not. Brienne began the series serving in a Kings Guard, I'd hate for her to end the series the exact same place she started. 

[whateverdgaf]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I think it extremely unlikely that Brienne & Jaime hook up sexually. For me, their arc has been more symbolic of 'courtly love' vs getting it on. Additionally, given that their whole dynamic has been about 'honour' and what it means to be honorable, the idea that Jaime would 'dishonour' Brienne by sleeping with her/getting her with child outside the bonds of marriage seems counter-intuitive to that.

I have a hunch that Brienne's destiny is to become the first female Lord Commander of the King/Queensguard and as such, the responsibility for The White Book becomes hers; she'll be the one who records Jaime's heroic deeds within its pages. How the act he's reviled for - killing The Mad King - saved the lives of the people of Kings Landing, how he learned to be a better person; saving her from being gang raped and losing a hand for it, rescuing her from being mauled to death, keeping his oath to Catelyn Stark by sending her to find and get Sansa to safety and giving her a sword forged from the Stark family sword, Ice, to do so, not to mention the heroic stuff he's gonna do, plus imo he's definitely gonna be killed *whilst performing a heroic act, in S8.

And that feels like a poignant ending for both their stories. #bittersweet

*"You fucking idiot" - It wouldn't surprise me one bit if that line returned when whatever brave-but-suicidal thing he does causes his death for real next time.

As you say their arc has been centred on the theme of honour, but it has also been about re-evaluating honour. Jaime breaking his oath and becoming a Kingslayer has come to be seen in a different light, and there is no reason why the pair should not come to see having sex outside of marriage will be no more honourable than not. Their is nothing dishonourable about sex outside wedlock, it is only the backwards views of Westeros that the pair have been learning to question that claims so. 

 

And that ending isn't bittersweet. It's just bitter. Jaime is dead. Brienne ends up exactly where she started, stuck in a deeply flawed institution of servitude (and to who? ungrateful Sansa, or Jon and Dany who she has no relationship with whatsoever) without even having experienced a loving and sexual relationship that she actually longs for. Brienne has spent her entire life being deemed unfit for romantic and sexual relationships, sticking her in a celibate order will only reinforce that. Brienne wants romance, Brienne wants a relationship. As evidenced by her longing for Renly and as time moved on by her love for Jaime. She chose to be in Renly's Kingsguard not out of any respect for the institution, but as a consolation and a desire to be near him. A large part of her and Jaime's arc has been in exploring the problem with Kingsguard and making life long vows, so why after all that would she willingly go into the Kingsguard and make another lifelong oath?  After a life of abuse for being a non conventional woman, she has come to believe she deserves nothing better than to serve others and can never be worthy of having a relationship. Why should those feelings be confirmed by having her end her story in the Kingsguard? Where is the sweetness in that? Where is the development? It's just a lot of tragedy. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[nikma]

Brienne and Jaime's child would feel like  a cop out IMO. If the point is the end Tywin's line, then end it and be done with it. 

[Meredith Quill]

I highly doubt that every other kingsguard that have ever served viewed their position as one of abuse, so why should Brienne?? Did Ser Barristan think he deserved no better? Did Duncan The Tall? On the contrary it is viewed as a position of honour and esteem, and one that notably has never been open to a woman... until Brienne. 

Brienne didn't love or long for Renly sexually - she stated as much, she loved him platonically. Not everyone has to be part of a couple to feel whole or of value. Brienne chose her path after deciding she didn't want to be 'a Lady', much like Ayra didn't want that life either. 

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Their is nothing dishonourable about sex outside wedlock, it is only the backwards views of Westeros that the pair have been learning to question that claims so. 

Yet this backwards view is the view medieval Westeros society holds, so of course that is how it will be judged, regardless of 21st century views. As far as I can tell Brienne hasn't questioned any social norms other than forging her own path and becoming a warrior, or when faced with the AOTD vs blind 'loyalty'. That doesn't mean she'd automatically throw out every other cultural norm that she's ever known. That's a rather large leap to take. Also, I stand by the courtly love symbolism this pair represent.

Jaime will die in S8, that's pretty much a given. Brienne attaining the pinnacle of honour in her own view isn't the same place she began; she began as someone who's ridiculed and mocked by her peers. So yes, in my view, my spec is indeed bittersweet and I hope it's close to what happens.

#opinionsaren'tfacts

I present nothing as fact, this is all only my personal opinion/interpretation.

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I highly doubt that every other kingsguard that have ever served viewed their position as one of abuse, so why should Brienne?? Did Ser Barristan think he deserved no better? Did Duncan The Tall? On the contrary it is viewed as a position of honour and esteem, and one that notably has never been open to a woman... until Brienne. 

Brienne didn't love or long for Renly sexually - she stated as much, she loved him platonically. Not everyone has to be part of a couple to feel whole or of value. Brienne chose her path after deciding she didn't want to be 'a Lady', much like Ayra didn't want that life either. 

Jaime will die in S8, that's pretty much a given. Brienne attaining the pinnacle of honour in her own view isn't the same place she began; she began as someone who's ridiculed and mocked by her peers. So yes, in my view, my spec is indeed bittersweet and I hope it's close to what happens.

#opinionsaren'tfacts

I present nothing as fact, this is all only my personal opinion/interpretation.

Brienne's lack of femininity and refusal to submit to Westeros's patriarchal views have resulted in her being treated as sexless and not worthy of a relationship. This is a great deal of angst for Brienne. Remember her memories of her ball on Tarth and how happy she was when she thought the boys were dancing. For Brienne to end the series in a celibate order without having even experienced a loving relationship would only reinforce the idea that a woman like Brienne cannot be a sexual and romantic character.

Brienne was in love with Renly, that is fact. Not everyone wants to be in a couple, but that does not include Brienne. And choosing not to be Westeros's idea of a lady does not cancel out her desire to also have a loving relationship.

It is not confirmed that Jaime will die, but even if he did he and Brienne could still have some happiness together before hand. 

If Brienne joins the Kingsguard then Brienne will still be back where she has started. Joining an organisation that preaches blind loyalty even when being so is destructive. Though meeting Jaime Brienne is learning to see the flaws in such organisations, even crying out 'fuck loyalty' when she is presented with a case of Jaime placing loyalty to a person over doing the right thing. FOr her to join the Kingsguard, which is the pinnacle of the problems with Westeros's oath system, an organisation where men like Arthur Dayne are praised as being heroes when they stood aside as Aerys abused his children and raped his wife, would fly in the face of that development.

Brienne can be a good and true knight without joining a deeply flawed and celibate order that undermines her growing understanding of the complexities of oaths and reinforces her belief that a woman such as her is only fit for a celibate life. 

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, whateverdgaf said:

Brienne's lack of femininity and refusal to submit to Westeros's patriarchal views have resulted in her being treated as sexless and not worthy of a relationship. This is a great deal of angst for Brienne. Remember her memories of her ball on Tarth and how happy she was when she thought the boys were dancing. For Brienne to end the series in a celibate order without having even experienced a loving relationship would only reinforce the idea that a woman like Brienne cannot be a sexual and romantic character.

Brienne was in love with Renly, that is fact. Not everyone wants to be in a couple, but that does not include Brienne. And choosing not to be Westeros's idea of a lady does not cancel out her desire to also have a loving relationship.

It is not confirmed that Jaime will die, but even if he did he and Brienne could still have some happiness together before hand. 

If Brienne joins the Kingsguard then Brienne will still be back where she has started. Joining an organisation that preaches blind loyalty even when being so is destructive. Though meeting Jaime Brienne is learning to see the flaws in such organisations, even crying out 'fuck loyalty' when she is presented with a case of Jaime placing loyalty to a person over doing the right thing. FOr her to join the Kingsguard, which is the pinnacle of the problems with Westeros's oath system, an organisation where men like Arthur Dayne are praised as being heroes when they stood aside as Aerys abused his children and raped his wife, would fly in the face of that development.

Brienne can be a good and true knight without joining a deeply flawed and celibate order that undermines her growing understanding of the complexities of oaths and reinforces her belief that a woman such as her is only fit for a celibate life. 

You're entitled to your opinion, we shall agree to disagree.

[Colorful Mess]

Idealization of knighthood and Orders based on celibacy don't work. At the same time, the king/queen needs protection and Brienne wants to serve. I think if they abolished the entire Order and allowed people to have families it might work. People have to make their own codes of honor instead, which is what a lot of characters like Jon and Jaime are already doing. Emphasizing service and good deeds is still important. Relying on paid bodyguards or hired armies is a sign that the norms upholding the feudal system are waning. 

[SimoneS]

I have so many thoughts about Brienne. I don't want her to join the Monarch's Guard because I feel it would limit her, but if she did, I certainly don't think it would be end of her life. If nothing else, she would do her duty until it was time to move on and she would be a role model for the young women of Westeros that they could be more than a wife or mother. 

In any case, even if Jaime lived and Brienne married him, I highly doubt she would be happy married to man who loved his sister more than he loved her.  Jaime is that fantasy that can only bring heartbreak. Cersei would alway stand between them. Whether Jaime lives or dies, I think that Brienne could still find love with someone else who appreciates her. She could have love and a family if that is what she wants.

It is my hope that Brienne chooses to be Lady of Tarth. Her father has no other children, if she doesn't take up the mantle of her house, probably some lesser worthy distance male relative will. I think that she would be happy being independent, rebuilding Tarth after the war, and if she did decide to marry, her husband would be her consort like the Lady Mormont of Bear  Island.

[glowbug]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It is my hope that Brienne chooses to be Lady of Tarth. Her father has no other children, if she doesn't take up the mantle of her house, probably some lesser worthy distance male relative will. I think that she would be happy being independent, rebuilding Tarth after the war.

I hope Brienne gets this ending as well. I disagree that Jaime loves Cersei more than Brienne though, at least in the books. His relationship with Cersei is unhealthy and I think that part of his redemption is falling in love with someone who is worthy of being loved, someone who makes him a better person. I’m not saying he didn’t love Cersei but she brought out the worst in him and their love was destructive. I don’t think it will be the greatest love of his life. The show seriously messed up Jaime’s character arc be keeping him with Cersei longer than they should have. They don’t really have enough time to believably untangle him from Cersei and have him fall for Brienne but if it happens in the books (as I suspect it will) they’ll rush it in season 8. That said, I’m pretty pessimistic about Jaime’s chances of survival and I don’t think he and Brienne will have sex let alone a child together. If they did (and they won’t but IF), I think Brienne would acknowledge that he was the father, whether she gave it her name, his, or a bastard name. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

His relationship with Cersei is unhealthy and I think that part of his redemption is falling in love with someone who is worthy of being loved, someone who makes him a better person. I’m not saying he didn’t love Cersei but she brought out the worst in him and their love was destructive. I don’t think it will be the greatest love of his life.

I feel like this would be putting the blame for all of Jaime's actions on Cersei. The Jaime-Cersei relationship is a co-dependent, toxic, unhealthy one that brought out the worst in both of them. In the books, Cersei tries to stop Jaime from pushing Bran and Jaime does not give a damn about his children. In the books, Jaime is the one who always coerces Cersei into sex and he pretty much rapes her on the show.

Does loving Brienne make Jaime a better person? I am not exactly sure. He handed over the responsibility for Sansa/Arya to Brienne despite swearing a personal oath to Cat. He continues enforcing his family's hold on Westeros - helping the Freys in the Riverlands, letting poor Jeyne Poole go get married to Ramsay Bolton. Has he yet taken responsibility for the WOT5K? Does he feel regret for what he did to Bran? Did he break with Cersei because of Brienne or because he got to know about Cersei's affairs? On the show, he seems to leave Cersei because he understands the greater threat. We have yet to see what he will do once he gets North.

Is Jaime worthy of being loved? If the next book started with Lady Stoneheart hanging Jaime, I would agree with her on that and would be disappointed if Brienne intervenes. It's like Jaime would be having a negative effect on Brienne and brings out the worst in her. I think he already has on the show. I continue to be disappointed that Brienne has not only not told the Starks about her sword (Unlike Jon telling Jorah about Longclaw) but tried to return it to Jaime. What the fuck Brienne?!

I do agree that Brienne is a side character probably written in to flesh out Jaime's story and give him a so called 'redemption arc'. That seems to be GRRM's Shtick with his Beauty and the Beast stories considering how Sansa's 'innocence' supposedly makes the Hound a better person. But just like Hound/Sansa seems to be going nowhere, as per the show, I don't think Jaime/Brienne is going to end with babies either.

I think Jaime and Cersei will end up dying together. Their stories have been intertwined for 7 seasons. They came into the world together, holding each other. They leave it together. I can see Brienne and Jaime have some heartfelt conversations next season and probably profess their love for each other, but I would think that's about the extent of it.

Edited October 2, 2018 by anamika

[whateverdgaf]

Although I don't dissolve Jaime of his part in his relationship with Cersei, I do believe his arc is about growing away from her and I have trouble believing that their narcisstic view about living together and dying together will be proven true. And I disagree that having been in a toxic relationship means Jaime is incapable of having a healthier one and falling in love with another woman. If Jaime does die, it will more likely be in Brienne's arms.

As for whether Jaime is worthy of love, Brienne definitely believes so and so do the showrunners, judging from their commentary on the J/B relationship. And that is what is going to influence his and Brienne's endgame. 

[MarySNJ]

On 9/29/2018 at 8:57 AM, cambridgeguy said:

It seems like the main benefit of having a ruler for on the Iron Throne is that it prevents the various kingdoms from fighting each other all of the time.  Aside from that each kingdom seems to do it's own thing and the Great Houses were pretty good at keeping their people content.  I doubt that Ned, Tywin, Doran, etc. were constantly getting ravens from King's Landing telling them what to do (yeah, Robert didn't care but Jon Arryn would have sent those if it was necessary).  Having Dany/Jon on the throne at the end will help settle the current instability since the Martells, Baratheons, Tyrells, and (probably) the Lannisters will all be officially gone by the end of the series.

Agreed. I don’t think the history of rulership in Westeros before Aegon’s Conquest had any better record of peace, competence and good governance than was the standard under the Targaryen dynasty; both between and within kingdoms. It’s true of our world too obviously. The Plantagenet dynasty, for example, was just a ruthless, and inbreeding and related madness it caused in the Habsburg dynasty were fairly common. 

My guess is that the end of season 8 there will be no more Iron Throne, whether it is literally destroyed or just retired to the dustbin of history, and that the ruler(s) will institute something like a Parliament to provide a voice to the governed, assuming Daenerys makes good on her promise to break the wheel, and I don’t think that Jon will mind sharing power. 

[screamin]

10 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Although I don't dissolve Jaime of his part in his relationship with Cersei, I do believe his arc is about growing away from her and I have trouble believing that their narcisstic view about living together and dying together will be proven true. And I disagree that having been in a toxic relationship means Jaime is incapable of having a healthier one and falling in love with another woman. If Jaime does die, it will more likely be in Brienne's arms.

As for whether Jaime is worthy of love, Brienne definitely believes so and so do the showrunners, judging from their commentary on the J/B relationship. And that is what is going to influence his and Brienne's endgame. 

While I agree that Brienne and Jaime will express love for each other and that part of Jaime's arc is essentially his growing out of his obsession for Cersei, partly through knowing Brienne, I think Jaime won't long outlive Cersei. He's responsible for enabling her and thus setting in motion deeds that led to the worst outcomes on the show and he won't have fully atoned till he helps put a definitive end to her - and regardless of how much he's changed, I don't think a happily-ever-after following staining his hands in her blood will happen. Yes, Brienne will lose Jaime, but she will have the satisfaction of knowing she can be loved for herself. The rest will be up to her. I don't think her losing Jaime is enough by itself to make 'bittersweet' into 'bitter."

[Eyes High]

If the writers really wanted to shock me, Jaime would survive Season 8. He's as doomed as Cersei, in my opinion.

I don't think Brienne will have Jaime's child, either. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

Whether Jaime dies or not, he is going to get some epic stuff and we are likely for some good J/B content, considering how NCW is the president of the fan club for both character and ship and he has been very hyped for this season, more than he was for season 7. 

[SimoneS]

Whatever they are planning for Jaime this season, I hope that he actually earns his redemption because he has been a major disappointment. Cersei might be slightly worse, but NCW standing around looking handsome and uncertain doesn't change the fact that Jaime is truly vile, to borrow from our late great Queen of Thorns. Jaime needs to mitigate or put a stop the evil that he has done to earn his redemption.

 

3 hours ago, screamin said:

While I agree that Brienne and Jaime will express love for each other and that part of Jaime's arc is essentially his growing out of his obsession for Cersei, partly through knowing Brienne, I think Jaime won't long outlive Cersei. He's responsible for enabling her and thus setting in motion deeds that led to the worst outcomes on the show and he won't have fully atoned till he helps put a definitive end to her - and regardless of how much he's changed, I don't think a happily-ever-after following staining his hands in her blood will happen. Yes, Brienne will lose Jaime, but she will have the satisfaction of knowing she can be loved for herself. The rest will be up to her. I don't think her losing Jaime is enough by itself to make 'bittersweet' into 'bitter."

I expect that Jaime will kill Cersei to earn his redemption before dying himself which is fitting because they are each other's ultimate sin. He has had so many opportunities to stop Cersei and refused to act on them. It is time for him to step up.

I don't think that Brienne losing Jaime is bitter. Any lost love is sad, but this is not Peggy losing Steve (my great unfulfilled Marvel romance), Jaime has nothing to give Brienne who values honor and honesty. Instead his death frees her to find a new life, happiness, and maybe a love that is reciprocated.

[Happy Harpy]

44 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I expect that Jaime will kill Cersei to earn his redemption before dying himself

But if the filming spoiler is right and he dies during the battle of WF  (episode 3 or 4) he won't meet Cersei again.

[SimoneS]

25 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

But if the filming spoiler is right and he dies during the battle of WF  (episode 3 or 4) he won't meet Cersei again.

I find it hard to believe that Jaime dies before one last confrontation with Cersei, but if he does, I hope that he does something redemptive before he dies because honestly he is pretty useless if he doesn't kill Cersei, He can't even fight. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by SimoneS

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

But if the filming spoiler is right and he dies during the battle of WF  (episode 3 or 4) he won't meet Cersei again.

It could be that he will put Cersei out of her misery and soon after he will ride heroically and suicidally into battle, feeling that he's accomplished his life's purpose and going on living as kingslayer AND kinslayer would be a miserable anticlimax (regardless of how justified both killings were).

[anamika]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I find it hard to believe that Jaime dies before one last confrontation with Cersei, but if he does, I hope that he does something redemptive before he dies because honestly he is pretty useless if he doesn't kill Cersei, He can't even fight. 

 

I think Jaime is heavily involved in some battle - either the WF battle or the KL battle or some battle in between - like the Riverlands. NCW and Gwen have filmed together a lot during the 55 day battle shoot. And a stunt guy has mentioned that NCW and Maisie were the best fighters - that implies he is involved in fighting. Maybe he has gotten good in one handed fighting now.

Jaime and Brienne defending WF and Ned's children with Ice would be fitting. But I do think his story ends in KL with Cersei and not in the North.

Has there been any sightings of Jerome Flynn at all? I don't think he showed up for any of the wrap parties.  I hope there is very little Bronn next season. Tired of the character.

Edited October 3, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

I don't think Jaime will ever get full redemption in either medium. Killing your sister and mother of your children is not redemption, it's tragic. And I hope they play it like a tragedy, it should't be "fuck yeah" moment, like when Theon killed Myranda.

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

I think Jaime is heavily involved in some battle - either the WF battle or the KL battle or some battle in between - like the Riverlands. NCW and Gwen have filmed together a lot during the 55 day battle shoot. And a stunt guy has mentioned that NCW and Maisie were the best fighters - that implies he is involved in fighting. Maybe he has gotten good in one handed fighting now.

Jaime and Brienne defending WF and Ned's children with Ice would be fitting. But I do think his story ends in KL with Cersei and not in the North.

Thinking about what we know "for sure" about the filming I think that like Jon, Jaime must be at King's Landing with Cersei at some point in the season. After all both NCW and Lena were in Seville for whatever was filmed there. They could have filmed short outdoor scenes. I do think that BoatSexBaby is right that action scenes were filmed in Seville along with final scenes.

As in season 7, I roll my eyes at Jaime fighting. I would find it believable if he lost his hand as a child and had learned to fight with his other hand, but a grown man who lost his fighting hand can never become an accomplished swordsman in such a short time. However, I have no doubt Jaime will be efficiently slaughtering soldiers by the dozens next season.

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, nikma said:

I don't think Jaime will ever get full redemption in either medium. Killing your sister and mother of your children is not redemption, it's tragic. And I hope they play it like a tragedy, it should't be "fuck yeah" moment, like when Theon killed Myranda.

Cersei's death, whether or not it's at Jaime's hands, is not going to be a "fuck yeah" moment. D&D love Cersei too much for that. Whatever my concerns about their writing may be, I have no doubt that they'll give Cersei a sendoff worthy of her character; some of my favourite Cersei moments have been show-only.

46 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Thinking about what we know "for sure" about the filming I think that like Jon, Jaime must be at King's Landing with Cersei at some point in the season. After all both NCW and Lena were in Seville for whatever was filmed there.

Yes and no. NCW showed up on Wednesday afternoon, didn't film anything during the day on Thursday and left Friday morning to head to Cannes, while filming continued on weekdays (Friday, Monday, and Tuesday). Doesn't mean that he filmed nothing, but he wasn't involved in the scene(s) filmed during the day, which is what we're talking about.

Lena showed up on Friday afternoon and left Sunday afternoon because she needed to film in Belfast on Monday, so again, no filming during the day with the main bunch (Sophie, Maisie, Isaac, Peter, etc. all took the weekend off). Lena may have filmed something, but it wasn't what Sophie, Maisie and the rest were filming.

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I find it hard to believe that Jaime dies before one last confrontation with Cersei

Me, too. NCW didn't finish until the first week of June, when D&D and Sapochnik were the only directors left. He could have been filming pickups or stuff from 8x03 (directed by Sapochnik), since we know Bella Ramsey (Lyanna Mormont) was filming in June as well and it's unlikely she features in the latter part of the season (presumably focusing on KL), but I'm skeptical.

[Lady Iris]

Big lurker here. I really enjoy your conversations. What I want to know, need to know, can't wait to find out is whose face is Arya going to steal and who is she going to kill using it.

That and hoping dragons and direwolves make it out alive in the end. And Davos too. Everything else is fair game.

[GrailKing]

[Happy Harpy]

[cynic mode] There probably wasn't going to be new spoilers this weekend. [/cynic mode]

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

[cynic mode] There probably wasn't going to be new spoilers this weekend. [/cynic mode]

Saw the message and jumped on my pony, the rest is popcorn time.

LOL

[SimoneS]

I had forgotten Friki was doing "an event." Too bad, it would have been something new to talk about. We need a trailer or some kind of leak.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I had forgotten Friki was doing "an event." Too bad, it would have been something new to talk about. We need a trailer or some kind of leak.

I depend on GT, but in redditt, someone mentioned a family situation and mentioned Frikidoctor's dad.

[anamika]

On 10/3/2018 at 10:30 PM, Lady Iris said:

Big lurker here. I really enjoy your conversations. What I want to know, need to know, can't wait to find out is whose face is Arya going to steal and who is she going to kill using it.

Welcome! Common speculation and fake leaks have Arya killing Cersei with Jaime's face or something similar. I am personally hoping that Arya's FM killing is done with. She has a Valyrian steel dagger now and let's see her use some of her water dance moves on the WW.

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I had forgotten Friki was doing "an event." Too bad, it would have been something new to talk about. We need a trailer or some kind of leak.

I think both Sophie and Kit are giving talks this sunday - Kit at an event in London and Sophie at NYCC. I don't think Kit will give anything away considering how reluctant he seems to say anything. But Sophie may give us something to talk about.

[cambridgeguy]

On 10/2/2018 at 9:48 PM, anamika said:

I hope there is very little Bronn next season. Tired of the character.

I can see Bronn tapping out for the fight against the dead.  His fighting skill is significantly less useful against opponents who will rush you and who won't stop after being stabbed with a normal sword.  Our Heroes also have Jon, Jaime, and the Vale lords so there's plenty of military leadership there.  I suppose he could be bribed by Cersei for the back stab to come but given how much the actors hate each other it would be really awkward to have that while also making sure they never have a scene together.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

I think both Sophie and Kit are giving talks this sunday - Kit at an event in London and Sophie at NYCC. I don't think Kit will give anything away considering how reluctant he seems to say anything. But Sophie may give us something to talk about.

Yes, I saw that about Kit, and Sophie’s doing an event on Saturday morning at NYCC for Dark Phoenix promo. 

I doubt Kit will say anything substantial, but yes, Sophie may give us something.

Via /Freefolk, Peter Dinklage said this about his character's end:

"It ends beautifully for my character, whether it be tragic or not".

How you interpret that will depend on whether or not you believe Friki's leaks, of course. I have trouble seeing how Tyrion betraying the Starks, being condemned in a trial by most of the surviving good guys, and then being executed would be considered a "beautiful" ending for Tyrion, particularly by Peter Dinklage of all people, but mileage varies as always, and I guess if he's unjustly executed or dies to take the blame for something somebody else did, it could be considered beautiful...? It gives us something to argue about until Sophie's next comment about Season 8, anyway, heh.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

I still don't understand what circumstances would lead him to betray Jon and Dany, but I definitely now believe that "something" happens with Tyrion from Peter's comments even ignoring Friki's "leaks."

[Eyes High]

54 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I still don't understand what circumstances would lead him to betray Jon and Dany, but I definitely now believe that "something" happens with Tyrion from Peter's comments even ignoring Friki's "leaks."

Yes, from the sounds of what Peter Dinklage has been saying about Tyrion in S8: he faces some things about himself he didn't want to face, he has complicated feelings towards Jon and Dany, he has a "beautiful" ending, etc.

There has been a lot of complaining about Tyrion being reduced to a sidekick in recent seasons and not having much character development. It sounds as if that will not be the case for Season 8.

Peter Dinklage being stuck on the "beautiful" descriptor brings me back to something I said several pages ago. The descriptors of S8 and the ending as "brave," "beautiful," and "raw, honest and important" are obviously alluding to something, but what?

If Friki is right, maybe it's "beautiful" that Tyrion, after being accused multiple times of shit he didn't do and being hated for being a dwarf, is correctly reviled, accused and executed for something he actually did do. Progress...?

Going back and reading Sophie's interviews, I really do think that she is in fact alluding to Sansa not ending up with Winterfell. Maybe she really does run away with Sandor or marrying Robin or something. TWIST.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

Here's a short video of Dinklage talking about the final season.

 

So the ending must really be unpredictable if everyone is saying so.

[SimoneS]

Combined with his previous comments about "maybe" Tyrion isn't a bad guy and playing dead on set, Peter's "it takes you to a place you never saw coming, that I didn't see coming," I think Tyrion's betrayal might be real. It is the one speculation that I never gave any credence to because it seemed so implausible, even now I find it difficult to believe even with all the possible reasons that people have given. If he is executed, then he is either beheaded by Jon or burnt to death by Daenerys which is tragic as hell. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Combined with his previous comments about "maybe" Tyrion isn't a bad guy and playing dead on set, Peter's "it takes you to a place you never saw coming, that I didn't see coming," I think Tyrion's betrayal might be real. It is the one speculation that I never gave any credence to because it seemed so implausible, even now I find it difficult to believe even with all the possible reasons that people have given. If he is executed, then he is either beheaded by Jon or burnt to death by Daenerys which is tragic as hell. 

But what if Tyrion does betray them for what he thinks are the right reasons, has a trial, but is not executed....I still think that there are chances that Tyrion survives.  Like everyone thinks he is dead, but the audience knows he's made it. Or he's exiled to Casterly Rock or somewhere else.

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Peter Dinklage being stuck on the "beautiful" descriptor brings me back to something I said several pages ago. The descriptors of S8 and the ending as "brave," "beautiful," and "raw, honest and important" are obviously alluding to something, but what?

Jonarya is happening!! No, but seriously, 'brave' does make it seem like something that will not be very popular with the general audience.

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Going back and reading Sophie's interviews, I really do think that she is in fact alluding to Sansa not ending up with Winterfell. Maybe she really does run away with Sandor or marrying Robin or something. TWIST.

She will be very self-assured and know exactly what she wants and that will be a dimwitted husband who she can control!  Sansa has two possible plots next season - a resolution to her Vale plot with SweetRobin or a showdown with Cersei.

I was listening to Joe Dempsie's interview at Con of Thrones. And yeah, from what he says, he really did film there and it looks like he filmed a scene with dialogue and lots of other characters. So I am not how sure how correct Friki's info is.

But the other interesting thing was when he was asked about Jon Snow and Gendry's prospects for being king. And he mentioned about how Jon grew up in a noble house hold and knew about lords and battles and been close to power. And how Gendry did not have any of that education. But, because Gendry grew up among the smallfolk, he would understand the plight and struggles of the common folk. And that's something that the leaders of Westeros have roundly lacked. This is something that GRRM has repeatedly touched upon in the books and I think Joe bringing that up points to a final leader in charge who does know the plight and the struggles of the smallfolk - Like Arya! With Gendry to help!  Plus, I think Maisie has filmed with several actors who play civilians - children and mothers, small boys, grieving man etc. and the show could be bringing back that aspect of Arya's character.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

But what if Tyrion does betray them for what he thinks are the right reasons, has a trial, but is not executed....I still think that there are chances that Tyrion survives.  Like everyone thinks he is dead, but the audience knows he's made it. Or he's exiled to Casterly Rock or somewhere else.

Tyrion being condemned but exiled would reconcile the trial bit with GRRM's 1993 outline, which promised that Tyrion would survive. However, Friki was very clear that his source claimed not only that Tyrion is tried but more importantly that he is executed (albeit in a scene allegedly filmed in Belfast and not Seville), so if Tyrion doesn't die after all, that throws Tyrion's trial into question, too.

Quote

Jonarya is happening!! No, but seriously, 'brave' does make it seem like something that will not be very popular with the general audience.

I agree. Even for seasoned book readers who are well versed on the Jon/Arya book weirdness (Jon comparing his lover Ygritte to Arya and GRRM "explaining" this by more or less saying that Jon has a type?), Jon/Arya would be a major WTF moment, particularly with Jon/Dany being such a big deal heading into Season 8.

Quote

She will be very self-assured and know exactly what she wants and that will be a dimwitted husband who she can control!  

How could she not end the series as the most self-assured character if she ends up with a nonthreatening, physically weak, dimwitted (or at least gullible) husband wrapped around her little finger (pun kind of intended)? Marrying an idiot worked for Olenna, who certainly did not lack for self-assurance, either (although it ultimately bit her in the ass when her son inherited his father's smarts). Throw in the support of the Vale and Brienne as Sansa's personal muscle, and she's going to be one confident lady indeed when the dust settles.

Quote

But the other interesting thing was when he was asked about Jon Snow and Gendry's prospects for being king. And he mentioned about how Jon grew up in a noble house hold and knew about lords and battles and been close to power. And how Gendry did not have any of that education. But, because Gendry grew up among the smallfolk, he would understand the plight and struggles of the common folk. And that's something that the leaders of Westeros have roundly lacked. This is something that GRRM has repeatedly touched upon in the books and I think Joe bringing that up points to a final leader in charge who does know the plight and the struggles of the smallfolk - Like Arya! With Gendry to help!  Plus, I think Maisie has filmed with several actors who play civilians - children and mothers, small boys, grieving man etc. and the show could be bringing back that aspect of Arya's character.

Sounds good to me...although I still don't understand why it is that Gendry is completely absent from those scenes filmed in May, June and July involving his new bestie, his father figure, and his ambiguous love interest. Wouldn't he be a natural addition to those scenes, especially if there's lots of action involved?

In other news, NCW shaved off his beard so that only a moustache remains, and wow, it's amazing how even a man who looks as good as NCW has trouble pulling that off. I guess this means he no longer has to worry about reshoots...? That's encouraging news for the progress of the postproduction work, one would think. Peter Dinklage still has a beard, but maybe he prefers it.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Going back and reading Sophie's interviews, I really do think that she is in fact alluding to Sansa not ending up with Winterfell. Maybe she really does run away with Sandor or marrying Robin or something. TWIST.

But they put things in the narrative to make the twists work. There is almost nothing within Sansa narrative to make such twist to work.

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

and the show could be bringing back that aspect of Arya's character.

That's an aspect of her character, but there is nothing that points her like the leader of a country.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

But what if Tyrion does betray them for what he thinks are the right reasons, has a trial, but is not executed....I still think that there are chances that Tyrion survives.  Like everyone thinks he is dead, but the audience knows he's made it. Or he's exiled to Casterly Rock or somewhere else.

Tyrion's banishment is far more believable (and palatable) for me because I still think that Martin intended for the five main characters to survive.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

No, but seriously, 'brave' does make it seem like something that will not be very popular with the general audience.

If the ending is "brave" and none of the main characters die, then Tyrion betraying Jon and Dany would be right up there.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

She will be very self-assured and know exactly what she wants and that will be a dimwitted husband who she can control!  Sansa has two possible plots next season - a resolution to her Vale plot with SweetRobin or a showdown with Cersei.

I still think that Sansa and Robin are a possible surprise ending couple. Why else would he be still be around? I am convinced the Hound will die and even if he doesn't, he is not a viable husband for her.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I was listening to Joe Dempsie's interview at Con of Thrones. And yeah, from what he says, he really did film there and it looks like he filmed a scene with dialogue and lots of other characters. So I am not how sure how correct Friki's info is.

But the other interesting thing was when he was asked about Jon Snow and Gendry's prospects for being king. And he mentioned about how Jon grew up in a noble house hold and knew about lords and battles and been close to power. And how Gendry did not have any of that education. But, because Gendry grew up among the smallfolk, he would understand the plight and struggles of the common folk. And that's something that the leaders of Westeros have roundly lacked. This is something that GRRM has repeatedly touched upon in the books and I think Joe bringing that up points to a final leader in charge who does know the plight and the struggles of the smallfolk - Like Arya! With Gendry to help!  Plus, I think Maisie has filmed with several actors who play civilians - children and mothers, small boys, grieving man etc. and the show could be bringing back that aspect of Arya's character.

I always believed that Gendry would make it to the end and the Baratheons are reestablished by legitimizing him. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But they put things in the narrative to make the twists work. There is almost nothing within Sansa narrative to make such twist to work.

That's an aspect of her character, but there is nothing that points her like the leader of a country.

It might be a Shae situation, where there’s a last-minute shift to get the TV character’s endgame in line with the book character’s endgame, regardless of everything that came before.

I’ve said upthread that I think it’s unlikely that Sansa will end up with Robin (if so, they would have recast Lino) and that I think Book Sweetrobin is toast, but I have to admit that Sansa discarding any thought of romance and doing what Littlefinger and Olenna did—marrying someone stupid she doesn’t love because she can control them—would be a plausible endgame point for her arc. TV Robin is a pathetic one-note joke of a character, but maybe that’s the point. He could never outfox Sansa or physically overpower her, and maybe that’s what she needs to feel safe.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[Sunshinegal]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

How could she not end the series as the most self-assured character if she ends up with a nonthreatening, physically weak, dimwitted (or at least gullible) husband wrapped around her little finger (pun kind of intended)? Marrying an idiot worked for Olenna, who certainly did not lack for self-assurance, either (although it ultimately bit her in the ass when her son inherited his father's smarts). Throw in the support of the Vale and Brienne as Sansa's personal muscle, and she's going to be one confident lady indeed when the dust settles.

Sounds good to me...although I still don't understand why it is that Gendry is completely absent from those scenes filmed in May, June and July involving his new bestie, his father figure, and his ambiguous love interest. Wouldn't he be a natural addition to those scenes, especially if there's lots of action involved?

I would hate it if Brienne is just Sansa's personal muscle.  Brienne has done her duty.  Let Brienne have her happy ending.  She is more than Sansa's glorified bodyguard. 

I think Gendry is either injured or either crafting a weapon to help Jon/Arya/Davos.  My money is that he's injured.   That's the only reason I can think of why he's absent from those scenes.

I would also like a scene between Brienne and Gendry considering they interacted in the books.

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I would hate it if Brienne is just Sansa's personal muscle.  Brienne has done her duty.  Let Brienne have her happy ending.  She is more than Sansa's glorified bodyguard. 

I think Gendry is either injured or either crafting a weapon to help Jon/Arya/Davos.  My money is that he's injured.   That's the only reason I can think of why he's absent from those scenes.

I would also like a scene between Brienne and Gendry considering they interacted in the books.

Somehow I feel like many forgo; it was Brienne who pledged her sword; and more then once.

If the war is won and rebuilding is next, I don't think Sansa would force her to stay. If Sansa lives and ends up LOWF or the RL, or the Vale she have a multitude of protectors.

If Brienne decides to stay, it would most likely be her choice. 

[OhOkayWhat]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

49 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

But they put things in the narrative to make the twists work. There is almost nothing within Sansa narrative to make such twist to work.

That's an aspect of her character, but there is nothing that points her like the leader of a country.

It might be a Shae situation, where there’s a last-minute shift to get the TV character’s endgame in line with the book character’s endgame, regardless of everything that came before.

Nah. It was very well established, in the season, she felt insecure about his love. And how his words deeply wounded her. The audience knew his reasons, but she did not.

[OhOkayWhat]

47 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I’ve said upthread that I think it’s unlikely that Sansa will end up with Robin (if so, they would have recast Lino) and that I think Book Sweetrobin is toast, but I have to admit that Sansa discarding any thought of romance and doing what Littlefinger and Olenna did—marrying someone stupid she doesn’t love because she can control them—would be a plausible endgame point for her arc. TV Robin is a pathetic one-note joke of a character, but maybe that’s the point. He could never outfox Sansa or physically overpower her, and maybe that’s what she needs to feel safe.

The question is, even if we discard romance, why D&D do need to introduce a marriage in Sansa story at this point and so late? Her narrative does not need it. Why to put effort on it?

[nikma]

Well, it seems Friki was right about Tyrion. 

[Happy Harpy]

18 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Saw the message and jumped on my pony, the rest is popcorn time.

LOL

I find the whole thing sad, actually.

This is the last season. It should be a huge rally for the fandom, even with a long off-season, yet because of too many fleaks, Munchausen by Internet and all the cray-crays getting desperate it's mostly exhaustion, aggression, delusion or cynicism all over.

[GrailKing]

4 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I find the whole thing sad, actually.

This is the last season. It should be a huge rally for the fandom, even with a long off-season, yet because of too many fleaks, Munchausen by Internet and all the cray-crays getting desperate it's mostly exhaustion, aggression, delusion or cynicism all over.

You are right of course, but this year would be twice the pain of hell without this THING.

[SimoneS]

It occurs to me that if Sansa marries Robert and becomes Lady of the Vale, then that leaves what remains of Winterfell for Arya to rebuild. I just don't think that Arya is going away after the war.

Edited October 5, 2018 by SimoneS