S10.E07: The Pyramid At The End Of The World

[Chyromaniac]

13 hours ago, darkestboy said:

I assume next episode will explain better why they want the Earth though.

Yeah - I feel like this is one of those story arcs that I won't be able to judge fully until we see how it all plays out.  Hopefully next week will satisfactorily wrap things up with the Monks - although I wouldn't be surprised if this all winds up having ramifications for the rest of the season as well.

On 5/28/2017 at 9:18 PM, tennisgurl said:

I spent most of the episode just wishing someone told those freaking Monks that they clearly have a different definition of "consent" than we do. They keep using that word, I don't think it means what they think it means. Its not consent if someone is being threatened into something!

I suppose this may just be my interpretation, but I don't see how they were threatening anything - it's not like they were, say, pointing missiles at the planet.  If that were the case, they'd be asking for "surrender."  But this particular apocalypse was essentially one of our own doing - so instead they require "consent" to fix it.  Basically, they need us to sign the terms and conditions, and they're letting us know how long we have to agree.

Are they taking advantage of the situation?  Absolutely - and for me that's what makes them evil, along with the way they dance around explaining what those terms and conditions entail.  Still, that doesn't make them responsible for the underlying crisis - if they hadn't intervened at all, everyone would've been wiped out anyway.  And, I feel they are correct in that neither agreeing out of fear or "strategic planning" qualify as consent.  It doesn't explain why consent is such a big deal for them (again, hopefully that gets addressed next week) - personally though, I found their whole deal to be an interesting twist for a Who villain.

7 hours ago, ganesh said:

I mean, we haven't seen UNIT at all, right?

The Secretary General would basically be Kate's boss, correct?  If he shows up asking for the Doctor, I think we can safely assume UNIT is already involved on some level.

As for the previous invasions: maybe this makes me a bad fan, but I really try not to get too hung up on canon when it comes to stuff like this.  Especially since the rule with Who, as I understand it, is that "everything happened."  From the audio plays, to the comics and novels, to the actual show and everything in between for 50+ years - on some level, it all counts.  In a system like that, there are bound to be contradictions.  All I want is for the writers to create interesting stories, and at least for me, this is shaping up to be one.  Besides, who says this is the "earth" where those past invasions took place, anyway?

Edited May 30, 2017 by Chyromaniac
grammar

[Toaster Strudel]

Why do you need a code to get OUT of a lab?

And why couldn't Erica get back in, and punch in the code for the Doctor?

[ganesh]

23 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

 If he shows up asking for the Doctor, I think we can safely assume UNIT is already involved on some level.

That's a bit of a leap, I'm not willing to make. UNIT is fairly hands on. And if that was the case, it's odd the Doctor didn't ask where UNIT was. There's a difference between inferring something from what we see on screen v assuming something with no evidence. 

26 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

As for the previous invasions: maybe this makes me a bad fan, but I really try not to get too hung up on canon when it comes to stuff like this.

The existence of aliens on a grand scale where everyone knows about them is a new era thing iirc. They can play loose with the canon if only UNIT is involved or some people here and there, but when you open it up to a planetwide scale, I just don't think it holds up. Handwaving it away if anything actually lessens the stakes. 

[Locutus]

I'm with those that are of the opinion ...."Moriarty never left the holodeck, we are still in it".... (paraphrasing).

[SoothingDave]

12 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

This is the hardest part to get over for me. I actually had to rewind because I thought I'd misunderstood. So, the show logic is, there is a lab that has double lock doors, where people wear hazmat suits, all of which imply that what they are working on is very dangerous and probably quite toxic. So, to what, protect the lab it sends the toxic fumes into the atmosphere? I must be missing something. I still don't get how that is supposed to be remotely logical.

Also, the Doctor just waved his hands at some computer screens and magically unlocked all military secrets on the planet, but he can't turn off some fans?

[Chyromaniac]

To be perfectly honest, I just figured that those black ops guys that busted up Bill's date were UNIT.  I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be -  "generic soldiers trying to find the Doctor" typically = UNIT, whether they actually name-check them or not.  From a storytelling perspective, my assumption is that they made the S.G. the one in charge because that guy had to die, and they didn't want to kill off Kate.  Or, maybe Jemma Redgrave was busy that week.  Or, they reeeeeally liked the "world leaders* torpedo Bill's love life" gag.  Otherwise, that character might as well have just been Kate.

I feel it doesn't matter, because to me this story isn't really about the UN (or UNIT), the armies, or even the weirdo aliens.  It's a story about the Doctor's hubris, and what happens when he has to admit that he's not invincible.  It's a strange exploration of the nature of consent.  It's about Bill learning that the Doctor has been BS-ing her, but still loving him enough to give up everything to save him.  There is an interesting nugget in there betwen the Doctor and the Generals about authority (a title only means something if people actually respect it).  But overall, the whole germ-pocalypse countdown feels more like the circumstance of the episode, and less like its substance.

Beyond that, yes - there have been plenty of publicly known alien invasions on the show.  They've also reset the entire universe several times as well - so who knows what's still in continuity at this point?  I mean, I remember Eleven being surprised that Amy didn't know what a Dalek was.  Frankly, with all the time travel that goes on in Who, history must have been written and rewritten countless times ("fixed points" not withstanding, unless the story is about breaking that particular rule...).  Again, how do we know that those invasions took place on this earth and in this timeline?

I believe that's why canon is, essentially, "everything happened" - because, at some point, each story did.  It just doesn't necessarily mean that it's happened in the chronology of the current season (or episode).  Personally, that works for me.  If that's handwaving, so be it.  If a story is interesting enough on it's own - and I feel this is - I don't mind whether or not it jives with some other thing that may or may not still exist anymore.  Of course, YMMV.

*here's my fact-check for the episode: the Secretary General shouldn't be a faux Ban Ki-Moon anymore.  I guess they figured no one would recognize the new guy...

[SoothingDave]

9 hours ago, Toaster Strudel said:

Why do you need a code to get OUT of a lab?

And why couldn't Erica get back in, and punch in the code for the Doctor?

Or why couldn't the Doctor have something like Facttime that would let someone "see" what he couldn't see and direct him when to stop turning the combination lock. 

For that matter, a normal keypad he could have done without eyesight.

[benteen]

9 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Yeah - I feel like this is one of those story arcs that I won't be able to judge fully until we see how it all plays out.  Hopefully next week will satisfactorily wrap things up with the Monks - although I wouldn't be surprised if this all winds up having ramifications for the rest of the season as well.

I suppose this may just be my interpretation, but I don't see how they were threatening anything - it's not like they were, say, pointing missiles at the planet.  If that were the case, they'd be asking for "surrender."  But this particular apocalypse was essentially one of our own doing - so instead they require "consent" to fix it.  Basically, they need us to sign the terms and conditions, and they're letting us know how long we have to agree.

Are they taking advantage of the situation?  Absolutely - and for me that's what makes them evil, along with the way they dance around explaining what those terms and conditions entail.  Still, that doesn't make them responsible for the underlying crisis - if they hadn't intervened at all, everyone would've been wiped out anyway.  And, I feel they are correct in that neither agreeing out of fear or "strategic planning" qualify as consent.  It doesn't explain why consent is such a big deal for them (again, hopefully that gets addressed next week) - personally though, I found their whole deal to be an interesting twist for a Who villain.

The Secretary General would basically be Kate's boss, correct?  If he shows up asking for the Doctor, I think we can safely assume UNIT is already involved on some level.

As for the previous invasions: maybe this makes me a bad fan, but I really try not to get too hung up on canon when it comes to stuff like this.  Especially since the rule with Who, as I understand it, is that "everything happened."  From the audio plays, to the comics and novels, to the actual show and everything in between for 50+ years - on some level, it all counts.  In a system like that, there are bound to be contradictions.  All I want is for the writers to create interesting stories, and at least for me, this is shaping up to be one.  Besides, who says this is the "earth" where those past invasions took place, anyway?

On the old Doctor Who, yes.  But I know the show had to change its named from United Nations Intelligence Taskforce to Unified Intelligence Taskforce.  So I don't think it's part of the UN anymore.  The UN having that kind of authority now is laughable. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, SoothingDave said:

Also, the Doctor just waved his hands at some computer screens and magically unlocked all military secrets on the planet, but he can't turn off some fans?

Good point. Did he not have his screwdriver with him? Why couldn't he use that to open the lock? Or like you say, jam the fans? Usually I enjoy the ride enough not to get bothered by the little inconsistencies, but I wasn't enjoying this one so much, so that kind of stuff is annoying the crap out of me. At least they went out of their way to have him send Nardole off so that he could be unconscious and not help but did they explain, does the sonic not work on combo locks?

[ganesh]

He did try the screwdriver on the lock, but because it was apparently mechanical or something, it didn't work. That doesn't explain shutting off the fans with it, or using facetime for literally anyone he knows to help him with it. 

[Mabinogia]

thank you. I must have missed that bit. I figured he should have at least tried it. Facetime would have been good. I was thinking some kind of mirror so Erica could see the numbers, anything. This ep seemed to rely too much on people being temporarily stupid. I hope it is worth it in the payout. The middle ep of a trilogy is usually a bit lacking because they are trying to move the players to where they need to be for the end.

I'm assuming this is over next ep. If not, ugh, I hope it gets better and not worse, in the logic department.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Mabinogia

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Do We See A Future With Erica On Doctor Who?

Or has she merely blinded the Doctor with science?

[LoneHaranguer]

4 hours ago, SoothingDave said:

Or why couldn't the Doctor have something like Facttime that would let someone "see" what he couldn't see and direct him when to stop turning the combination lock. 

For that matter, a normal keypad he could have done without eyesight.

A door like that would generally have a mechanical lock so that it would be immune to power failure (and sonic screwdrivers in some seasons), but it's usually pushpins in a logical pattern with #1 in the top left corner, not dials. Dials would have the numbers cast or engraved in them, not painted; paint wears off. Even painted, the Doctor may have been able to read them if he got his sonic sunglasses close enough; he didn't try.

On 5/27/2017 at 11:18 PM, FiveByFive said:

3.  The Doctor never explaining to Bill that if he dies he should "regenerate" into a new version of himself.

Just once I'd like to see a companion rip into a newly-regenerated Doctor for not telling her that throughout all of the times they've been risking their lives together, the risk he was taking wasn't quite the same.

On 5/29/2017 at 8:48 AM, darkestboy said:

I mean I saw Bill being the one to actually consent to the Monks demands a mile off but it still worked rather well though.

But, why should Bill's consent be any good when the Doctor's voice over the phone is clearly saying no? That means she's not actually his agent.

On 5/28/2017 at 11:07 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Considering the episode ended with the Monks miraculously restoring the Doctor's sight - a MIRACLE just to give a nod to my former rant - I wouldn't be surprised if we discovered this was still a simulation.

That would explain how the simulated Doctor was able to send a message to another Doctor; it's much more plausible if the receiving Doctor was another simulation.

[jhlipton]

On 5/28/2017 at 11:08 AM, KirkB said:

Soo...these monks have been watching Earth for who knows how long, figuring out how best to endanger humanity so they can step in and 'save' them, and it turns out the real treat is a hungover idiot in possibly the worst designed lab ever? They didn't DO anything. If that guy had decided not to got out or called in sick they'd just be out of luck.

Maybe it was the Monks who got him drunk!  (Not a serious thought..)

[AudienceofOne]

10 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

That would explain how the simulated Doctor was able to send a message to another Doctor; it's much more plausible if the receiving Doctor was another simulation.

The embarrassing this is that this show has been so badly written during the Moffatt era that the things we'd usually use as a 'clue' to a simulation or parallel universe or any other form unreality - inconsistencies, OOC moments, strange narrative choices - make no impact because it's just another day in Moffattville.

"Oh, the TARDIS didn't translate in that scene? Guess they just forgot about that bit for this episode." 

"Oh, the Doctor ran into a contaminated lab without a hazmat suit? He must know he has plot armour."

"Oh, the omniscient aliens just restored the Doctor's sight with a wave of their hands? Totally plausible!"

So maybe we're right and this is another simulation. But it's entirely possible it's not. And that says something about the quality of writing. I personally hope it is because it's the only thing that could vaguely redeem this dog of an episode.

[ganesh]

I'd add the whole thing with the lock leading to Bill "consenting" too. It's not really a true simulation because the aliens are stacking it to have someone consent.

I want the whole thing to be a simulation because I just don't like stories that affect the entire planet. 

[LoneHaranguer]

12 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

"Oh, the omniscient aliens just restored the Doctor's sight with a wave of their hands? Totally plausible!"

They do have those glowing strings to work with. Maybe they're the Fates of Greek and Roman mythology, actually aliens with godlike tech that can affect reality and just want to be worshiped again (like the Goa'ld of Stargate SG1).

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, LoneHaranguer said:

Maybe they're the Fates of Greek and Roman mythology

That is what I thought of, the Fates. But they don't just observe, they are entrepreneurial fates who use what they see to get whatever it is to get the consent they crave so deeply. I believe the world leaders when they said they "felt" what was coming. That wasn't just some video the Monks played to trick them, it was the truth. The Fate Monks saw it and saw an opportunity for world domination! It really is a great idea, if not extremely poorly executed.

[markx]

Maybe he could have tried face time, but he's still stuck because it only works with the minority of people also with an apple cell phone. Or he could have just used video calling.

[ganesh]

Google Hangouts too. There's plenty of options. He could have taken a picture of the lock and shown it to Erica, who could have read it to him. 

[Bruinsfan]

On 5/30/2017 at 9:27 PM, jhlipton said:

Maybe it was the Monks who got him drunk!  (Not a serious thought..)

I love the mental image of OSHA Violations Guy out partying the night before with  mummies in crimson robes like a bunch of frat boys.

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I love the mental image of OSHA Violations Guy out partying the night before with mummies

Love that image (except they'd be HSE Officrs in the UK)! But now I can't help imagining the misplaced decimal point bringing up Microsoft's "Happy Paperclip" going, "You look like you're trying to bring about the Apocalypse. Would you like sme help with that?"

[Mabinogia]

Awe, I miss the Happy Paperclip. Maybe he was the ancestor of the emoji-bots. lol

[jhlipton]

On 6/1/2017 at 2:10 PM, John Potts said:

Love that image (except they'd be HSE Officrs in the UK)! But now I can't help imagining the misplaced decimal point bringing up Microsoft's "Happy Paperclip" going, "You look like you're trying to bring about the Apocalypse. Would you like sme help with that?"

No thanks, Mr Clip, I can bring about the Apocalypse all by myself!

[smorbie]

On 5/28/2017 at 5:10 AM, wayne67 said:

This season has been steadily getting worse

Sighhhh....it has.  And it started off with so much promise, too.

On 5/28/2017 at 9:17 AM, benteen said:

Then again, it’s never been believable that the nations of the world would all the Doctor to be “President of the World” in times of crisis either.  That’s definitely a Moffat thing.

And a horribly stupid idea.  It's one of those over-the-top deals that could ruin a series.

[wayne67]

3 minutes ago, smorbie said:

Sighhhh....it has.  And it started off with so much promise, too.

Yeah I was actually optimistic that this might be a good season what with the new companion but I guess I'll have to wait till next season to see what a new show runner will bring to this. 

You know what's sad is they never explained why they came in a pyramid... I mean what's up with that ? Was that supposed to be a reference to ancient Egypt or something ? Oh well I'll just pretend this trilogy never happened and try and stop thinking about all the many flaws. 

[smorbie]

**shrugs*** I dunno.  The whole thing was just uninteresting to me.  It could've been, it started to be, with the doomsday clock thing, but then.....meh

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, smorbie said:

It could've been, it started to be, with the doomsday clock thing

Forgot about that. Would also have made a good stand alone episode. Doctor realizes the world is going to end when the clock runs out but doesn't know exactly how. Races around trying to find the cause and then prevent it. This did not need to be wedged into the Monk storyline. This was an everything but the kitchen sink trio. Way too much stuff going on so that nothing gets the focus it needs to actually work well as a story.

[LilJen]

On 5/29/2017 at 7:13 PM, Mabinogia said:

After that, Erica's partner in the lab was a fucking moron. He left the freaking door open, took his mask off, handled the dirt that plants just mysteriously died in with his bare hands. Sorry, but that guy was begging to die.

I couldn't deal with all the lab mistakes either. Also hated that all these smart people couldn't possibly find a way to help the Doctor get the door-opening codes, say by Facetiming or something; nooooo, it had to be the "I LOVE THE DOCTOR AND MY LOVE FOR HIM IS PURE LET'S DOOM HUMANITY."

I did like Nardole, though. What does a bacteria need to survive? "Food, air, water, and beer."

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, LilJen said:

Also hated that all these smart people couldn't possibly find a way to help the Doctor get the door-opening codes, say by Facetiming or something;

He should have gone on previously.tv. We had a bunch of ideas for him. I hate TV idiocy for the sake of plot. Have them figure it out only for the tumblers to jam. Sure, it's still a contrivance but at least it doesn't sacrifice characters intelligence to get them were they need to be in the plot.