The Brave - General Discussion

[piequinn35]

Was it something like that? I don't want to rewatch the ep.

[Emma9]

When the one agent was tossing the suspected spy's place, I was amused to spot a copy of Ticket to Ride in her nightstand. I didn't think that was quite mainstream enough to be typical set dressing.

[dargosmydaddy]

I was amused when Hannah put the gloves on in the mole's apartment right after closing the door very deliberately with her full/ ungloved hand and fingers.

[jhlipton]

On 10/31/2017 at 8:16 AM, Xantar said:

Shallow note: I thought Jaz was merely pretty in previous episodes, but when she smiles she's stunning. It was actually kind of weird because her actress does a good job playing cold sniper.

I liked it -- it made her more relatable; that in her off time, she likes to have fun, too.

[Raja]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:57 AM, piequinn35 said:

Was it something like that? I don't want to rewatch the ep.

Yes the Special Forces insignia on the back near his shoulder blade. I don't think he had the AIRBORNE tab, which is always on the uniform above it also tattooed.

[TV Anonymous]

Yikes, special operator/ intelligence agent who doesn’t care about OPSEC / PERSEC. And I love it that the team always seems to be chilling out in their downtime. No training, no preparation. Just wait for the next mission to fall into their laps and just wing it. After all, why bother with preparation if things will go their way anyway, right? /s

On 2017-10-31 at 6:56 PM, Raja said:

30 years ago when I was in the tattoo would have disqualified him. But now with tattoos so common who knows

I don’t know special operators, but I know someone who went for a plainclothes mission. He was sent home as when the team was at the hotel’s pool before the mission they found that he had 82nd ABN tattoo.

[TV Anonymous]

On 2017-11-01 at 2:59 AM, diadochokinesis said:

Nope.  Especially if it was just the generic SF tattoo.  I knew several Night Stalkers that had that unit tattoo on their body but most SF I know usually will have just the generic SF tattoo and not the specific unit on them (because units change and that would be a lot of tattoos). 

What specific unit tattoos do you mean? The arrowhead insignia is the one for the 1st Special Forces Command (Airborne). The SFGs under that command do not have their own specific insignia.

[diadochokinesis]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

What specific unit tattoos do you mean? The arrowhead insignia is the one for the 1st Special Forces Command (Airborne). The SFGs under that command do not have their own specific insignia.

That is 1st SF Command.  There are other SF units out there.  5th Group at Ft. Campbell and 160th SOAR (also at Campbell) have different insignias. If you are speaking specifically of just Special Forces regiments, then you have 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 19th, and 20th regiments.  Each one will have its own insignia unique to the group.

[TV Anonymous]

16 minutes ago, diadochokinesis said:

That is 1st SF Command.  There are other SF units out there.  5th Group at Ft. Campbell and 160th SOAR (also at Campbell) have different insignias. If you are speaking specifically of just Special Forces regiments, then you have 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th, 19th, and 20th regiments.  Each one will have its own insignia unique to the group.

160th SOAR is not Special Forces. They are part of ARSOC, but they are not SF. There are no ‘regiment’ in the Special Forces. They have groups with the numbers you mentioned. All of them wear common SF SSI, but each group has its own beret flash and background trimming. There are units under 1st SFC (Abn) with different SSI: 95th Civil Affairs Bde (Abn), 528th Sustainment Bde (Abn) and Military Information Support Groups. But they are all support and not SF per se.

[diadochokinesis]

2 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

160th SOAR is not Special Forces. They are part of ARSOC, but they are not SF. There are no ‘regiment’ in the Special Forces. They have groups with the numbers you mentioned. All of them wear common SF SSI, but each group has its own beret flash and background trimming. There are units under 1st SFC (Abn) with different SSI: 95th Civil Affairs Bde (Abn), 528th Sustainment Bde (Abn) and Military Information Support Groups. But they are all support and not SF per se.

I think you and I are misunderstanding me.  1st Special Forces Command is the commanding unit overall.  The groups I listed fall up under 1st Special Forces Command. They do have their own unit insignias. I stated that most that choose to have a tattoo will do the general SF tattoo and not the specific unit/group insignia.  It would be similar to how a soldier at the 101st might get the Screaming Eagle or he might get a Rakkassan if he falls up under that brigade. While their shoulder patch might never be the Rakkassan insignia, it is highly identified with that brigade and soldiers will sometimes choose that particular insignia for a tattoo.  So, yes, there is the overall 1st Special Forces Command insignia but each group under the command has their own insignia too which a soldier COULD choose to tattoo on them but in my experience, most don't. 

[jhlipton]

11 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

I love it that the team always seems to be chilling out in their downtime. No training, no preparation. Just wait for the next mission to fall into their laps and just wing it.

I'd rather watch them relaxing and chatting in their downtime than training or prepping.  I can easily handwave that we're seeing the five minutes when they're not working.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

I'd rather watch them relaxing and chatting in their downtime than training or prepping.  I can easily handwave that we're seeing the five minutes when they're not working.

I tend to agree while it is the extra money, bullets and time getting ready for a specific assignment which separates special forces from those ordinary soldiers and Marines fighting for us do you spend the time to show it like SEAL Team is doing or take it for granted and tell the story of the week?

[jhlipton]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

I tend to agree while it is the extra money, bullets and time getting ready for a specific assignment which separates special forces from those ordinary soldiers and Marines fighting for us do you spend the time to show it like SEAL Team is doing or take it for granted and tell the story of the week?

I was turned off from Seal Team from the get-go, and their ad of "work, practice, breathe.. [repeat]" makes me not likely to go back (especially since the "breathe" part seems be relationship drama rather than the team interacting.

[Drogo]

When an undocumented drone crashes on the border of Mongolia, the team is forced to investigate the old school way. Meanwhile, a stunning realization takes place in the D.I.A.

[Drogo]

After embarking on mission after mission to keep the world safe, the team is confronted with a task that hits close to home. When things go sideways, the only option is to risk one of their own for their final shot to settle the personal score.

[Drogo]

This show isn't as concerned with filling combat vet stereotypes as SEAL Team is.  The only info about "home" we get is positive and warm (a la Preach, with the daughters' doe-eyes and cash register comment.) 

[Irishmaple]

Amir got interesting: a privileged upbringing in Beirut, followed by the tragic death of his talented sister lead him to the CIA. Three years undercover as a leader of ISIS was some hardcore backstory. And he sold it. No matter what the terrorists said or did, Amir never broke character. I figured he had a Plan B going on when he walked away from the kid, but it still looked cold when he did it.

Jaz bugged in this one. I know Amir replaced her friend but did she seriously think he was some agency’s leftovers? It bothered me that Dalton shared Amir’s story behind his back to to shut Jaz up.

I could ship Dalton and Campbell if somebody asked. I noticed that Patricia pulled off her glasses as soon as Dalton appeared on screen. I don’t think she’s that much older than him and, while there might be direct report issues, they are not at all in the same chain of command.

I felt bad for Preach and Maguire hanging tough in the pouring rain.

The kid took long enough to change his mind. Seeing his sister’s head slammed into a wall should have clued him in. I really liked the sister. She risked everything for her brother and I was glad it worked out for her.

[kassygreene]

Amir was the New Guy in the pilot, who had some of his own ideas but settled down and in.  Jaz was thoroughly competent, but even then not happy with her last partner's replacement.

In this episode Jaz is still not happy, but learning.  Amir is revealed to in fact be an extremely experienced, confident, and competent operative, and also an extremely good cook.  Show is eschewing the tropes.  Show pleases me.  Show is therefore not going to make it, while CBS Soapy Show gives the angsty vampire another 6-8 years of work.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, kassygreene said:

Show is eschewing the tropes.  Show pleases me.  Show is therefore not going to make it, while CBS Soapy Show gives the angsty vampire another 6-8 years of work.

Yes, I have started enjoying this show too much, which likely means it will be cancelled by March. Sorry, all! 

[Irishmaple]

Don’t take it all on yourselves. I just killed Me, Myself & I. The first network sitcom in years that I liked and my affection slaughtered it after 7 episodes.

1 hour ago, deaja said:

Yes, I have started enjoying this show too much, which likely means it will be cancelled by March. Sorry, all! 

[Lady Calypso]

47 minutes ago, Irishmaple said:

Don’t take it all on yourselves. I just killed Me, Myself & I. The first network sitcom in years that I liked and my affection slaughtered it after 7 episodes.

And Kevin (Probably) Saves The World has probably been killed by me too!

This show is infinitely more interesting than SEAL Team. I couldn't actually get past episode 4 of that other show because I was sick of all the forced drama between Dead Guy and Alt!Seeley Booth (Alternative Universe Booth), as well as the previously loved Bates Motel's Max Theriot.

[weathered1]

You can add me to the show slaughterers, I'm afraid. Almost every single time I really like a new show, the networks seem all too happy to get rid of it with a quickness. 

I'm still holding out hope that this one hangs on, because it's (by the far) the most entertaining new fall show, imo.  This is one of the very, very few shows where there isn't at least one character that I actively (and thoroughly) dislike. The team gels very well together, as does the intelligence side, and everyone is likable and has an important role to play. 

SEAL Team is just so impossibly dull that it sort of boggles the mind that they managed to make material that should've been consistently edge-of-your-seat-worthy into a weekly cure for insomnia. And Boreanaz....It's same old, same old with him - every character he plays might as well just be named Angel Booth, FBI Special Agent Vampire (with a soul). 

[Netfoot]

I've just got to ask:  Who is the angsty vampire?

[dargosmydaddy]

I believe it refers to Seal Team (starring David Bore-whatever, who played an angtsy vampire on Angel/ Buffy). I say this having never watched Angel, Buffy, or Seal Team...

I like Amir. Unlike McG, he (and the actor) can carry an episode. I also liked the scaled back role of the control room team in this one.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I believe it refers to Seal Team (starring David Bore-whatever, who played an angtsy vampire on Angel/ Buffy).

Oh, right!  I should have worked that out, but my exposure to Buffy is minimal, and to Angel is nonexistent.  Other than conversational.

[blackwing]

11 hours ago, Irishmaple said:

I could ship Dalton and Campbell if somebody asked. I noticed that Patricia pulled off her glasses as soon as Dalton appeared on screen. I don’t think she’s that much older than him and, while there might be direct report issues, they are not at all in the same chain of command.

I know age is just a number, but she seems too old for him.  I peg her at about 50 whereas he seems early 30s or 35 tops.  

Plus, he seems to be her direct report, even if they might be with different agencies.  He is her muscle.  She tells him where to go, when to go, what to do.  Sometimes she lets him make the field decisions but otherwise she seems firmly in charge of him. No way would she think about dating him, she is too establishment for that.

This show is fantastic.  I love how each week, another layer of the onion is revealed.  The characters are well written and so complex.  Each week we are getting to know more and more about the team as individuals.  Not many shows right now have characters as complex as these.  Too bad the show is not doing so well.  But if NBC can renew Taken and Timeless, there is hope.

[xander874]

In the real world Anne Heche is 10 years older than Mike Vogel (48 vs 38) and I can see them bonding although the premise of the show makes a relationship hard considering they have only physically interacted in one episode.

I liked this one a lot. Guess the DC team got to relax after last week's craziness, because they were barely on. I am glad we are getting back story and also glad Jaz backed off because her annoyance at Amir was getting on my nerves. Guess we need a Preach-centric episode soon. And I would love to see how Dalton got into his position via some back story. Maybe they will tackle that before it gets cancelled (I don't wish this, but I am a realist).

Edited November 8, 2017 by xander874

[piequinn35]

The ratings are going up for the show, it's a good sign.

Seal Team is right after Survivor so some people tend to watch it too.

[rove4]

I'm really enjoying this show too.  I also watch Seal Team but I'm leaning towards this one more.  At least this show lets all the team members actually speak.

I don't see anything between Dalton and Deputy Director Lady but respect.  However, though Jaz and her distrust of Amir really annoyed me, something about the way she looked at him (through the rain) after hearing his story from Dalton (which, yes, was not his story to share), coupled with their final scene back at the base kitchen makes me think mayyyyybeee I could ship that.  But I'd be fine if there were no intra-team romances.

Loved Amir in this one.  He was a cool cucumber.  Very sexy. 

[jhlipton]

On 11/7/2017 at 0:19 PM, Lady Calypso said:

And Kevin (Probably) Saves The World has probably been killed by me too!

I'm another show-killer.  I like this and Kevin, and crap lile Seal Team gets the ratings.  Boo!

On 11/8/2017 at 6:19 AM, xander874 said:

I would love to see how Dalton got into his position via some back story.

Hopefully, it will explain why they call him "Top" even though they shouldn't.

[Raja]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

 

Hopefully, it will explain why they call him "Top" even though they shouldn't.

I  would just retcon his Army rank and make him an ODA team Sergeant since they have used Top a lot more often than Captain.

As for his background Special Forces and was recruited by the DIA, instead of going to Delta Force or a private military contractor. Just like the Doc and the ex SEAL Preach.

Jaz, as the sniper before females were allowed in the role probably shows up as an instructor, or the female on a team to deal with civilians in an area with the segregation of genders. I understand that the intelligence agencies have been using them for a while while the regular armed forces could not due to the past laws 

[jhlipton]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:03 AM, Raja said:

I  would just retcon his Army rank and make him an ODA team Sergeant since they have used Top a lot more often than Captain.

Jaz, as the sniper before females were allowed in the role probably shows up as an instructor

I know there's been a lot of objection to "Top", but has there been the same level of objection (other than from those who would object to any woman on the team) to Jaz?

I like your idea of fixing the "Top" screw up.

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I know there's been a lot of objection to "Top", but has there been the same level of objection (other than from those who would object to any woman on the team) to Jaz?

I like your idea of fixing the "Top" screw up.

It is not regular Army and it has been rumored that females have been in this role for  CIA teams for some time, since the OSS in WII. However they are or were  soldiers before being recruited except Amir and Preach being Navy so we get back to Dalton, Jaz and McG shouldn't be breaking the custom

[koalathebear]

Sorry for being clueless but what's the objection to 'Top'?  I don't even know what it signifies so just assumed it was slang ...

[Netfoot]

It is short for "Top Sergeant" but the character is not a sergeant. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, koalathebear said:

Sorry for being clueless but what's the objection to 'Top'?  I don't even know what it signifies so just assumed it was slang ...

If you saw the movie Glory about the first Black combat regiment in the US Civil War were there was the ceremony to promote the Morgan Freeman character to Sergeant Major because blacks were not to be given a commission, Lieutenant through General, it highlights the difference between officers, the path that leads to Captain rank the Dalton was supposed to hold and enlisted service members in the American military system. From the relationship we get specific honorifics like officers don’t do certain types of duties and are saluted while enlisted are not.

 

With that comes the customs where the long service and proven enlisted man is honored with that informal title. The US Navy “Senior”, USMC “Gunny” and in the Army “Top”, which is short for the original “Top Soldier”. and now the First Sergeant, the senior enlisted man in the company that being the lowest level where you have a "commander" in the Army. Command being an actual legal definition of responsibilities. The commissioned officers in the US services would never allow nor would the soldiers use one of those specific informal honorifics to be applied to him. It would be like someone who had not won the 100m dash or held that record in the track and field world being called “the world’s fastest man”. And all the athletes would cry foul

 

Making such a blunder headed unforced error tells us that while they may have hired a technical adviser that they are not using him. So any claims of this is being like real are discounted. Okay as a show with people waving around guns but not the this is what our special forces soldiers are doing for us show they are claiming it is.  It would be like making a big error in baseball customs in that FOX drama Pitch about the woman baseball player. If a glaring error in baseball traditions was made the baseball fan would have cried foul and turned off the story thinking if they didn't get that right why should I watch the rest of this.

[Netfoot]

Mine was shorter.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

It is short for "Top Sergeant" but the character is not a sergeant. 

 

10 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Mine was shorter.

Top Sergeant doesn't mean "the top/best Sergeant" - it's a term of reverement for a specific rank and a high one at that.  Promotions aren't handed out at time intervals during military service, so first someone needs to make E-5/Sergeant in the Army (4-5 years in with initiative/leadership skills) then they would need to be promoted again to Staff Sergeant, then Sergeant First Class, then either Master Sergeant or First Sergeant/"Top." 

 

1 hour ago, Raja said:

Making such a blunder headed unforced error tells us that while they may have hired a technical adviser that they are not using him. So any claims of this is being like real are discounted.

This.

[Raja]

It comes down to being an irritant  every time someone calls Dalton "Top". Not enough for me to stop watching but enough of an  irritant for me as a US Army veteran to keep bringing it up in discussion of this particular show. Just yesterday on the S.W.A.T. forum someone was asking about a LAPD veteran who used to post on the Southland board over at TWoP if he would come comment about SWAT. For him all manner of LAPD procedural's with lessor degrees of realism than Adam-12 or Southland were not watched for reasons like not getting customs right. How much of the natural audience tunes out like Snowprince does for less real LAPD based police shows or will just settle with constantly bitching about "Captain Top" is the question?

18 minutes ago, Drogo said:

 

Top Sergeant doesn't mean "the top/best Sergeant" - it's a term of reverement for a specific rank and a high one at that.  Promotions aren't handed out at time intervals during military service, so first someone needs to make E-5/Sergeant in the Army (4-5 years in with initiative/leadership skills) then they would need to be promoted again to Staff Sergeant, then Sergeant First Class, then either Master Sergeant or First Sergeant/"Top." 

 

 

As I understand the custom though the root did come from a time when the "top soldier" was made the First Sergeant of his company. A time, before seniority alone, or mostly ruled enlisted promotions and you had soldiers spend their entire career as a Private

[Netfoot]

31 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Top Sergeant doesn't mean "the top/best Sergeant" - it's a term of reverement for a specific rank and a high one at that.

I am well aware of this.  I just didn't think it was pertinent to any response to the OP.

The simple answer to the original question is that since Adam Dalton is in fact a Captain, it is not correct to call him "Top (Sergeant)".  

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Raja said:

It would be like someone who had not won the 100m dash or held that record in the track and field world being called “the world’s fastest man”. And all the athletes would cry foul

More like if someone had won the decathlon but not 100m dash, and calling him the fastest sprinter.  Dalton "won" a different rank, so it's not like "stolen valor" where someone who was never in the services wears a medal.

[koalathebear]

Thanks for the answers.  I think as a lawyer I'm just used to seeing legal procedure horribly mangled and just plain wrong in tv shows I watch, so I make a choice to either suspend disbelief or just not watch.  Looks like the standard might be different for military dramas ... and it looks like the 'Top' thing is considered a fatal flaw by some and not by others (who still want to watch).  Has anyone tweeted any of the showrunners to ask them why they did this?  Is it salvageable - could they retcon it away somehow??

Edited November 14, 2017 by koalathebear

[Irishmaple]

I felt bad for the Mongolian nomads. The raid by the Russian special forces did some damage, and then they were held at gunpoint by Americans. Why wouldn’t the Russians just kill everyone though? It seemed shortsighted to leave survivors with knowledge of the drone and the raid. Even in the middle of nowhere people talk.

I like that the show is circling back to the bombing in Turkey and to Boothe. For all the running around and shooting in this episode, I found it dull.

[Netfoot]

Hmmm.

Dalton fights with Mr. Spetsnaz, and ends up grabbing his knife.  A tussle ensues.

The knife (lower arrow) is a cheap piece of rubbish, with an "American Tanto" grind, a straight back with a small swedge, and some sort of chainlink or beehive treatment to make it less visible.  (Camo, if you will.)  It also looks like the tip has been ground down, presumably so these two Hollywood Heroes don't injure themselves while tussling.  The edge may have been dulled as well.  (In case you don't know, the edge here is on the top as we see it, including the angled section on the right hand end.)

The second (upper) arrow shows that Dalton's own knife is still sheathed, next to a series of mag-pouches on his left side.

A split second later, we see Dalton's knife still sheathed at his side.  I note the two Chicago screws holding an extra layer of Kydex to the upper part of the sheath.  This extra layer includes wings/ears at the top that allow the knife to snap into place so it won't easily fall out and get lost.

The fight over, Dalton wipes the blood from... not the tanto blade, but a shorter, drop-point blade with a long swedge on the spine, and a bit of belly.  It has some sort of stonewashed finish, rather than the chainlink/beehive treatment of the tanto.  And clearly, the tip has not been ground down to make it safer to handle!

Once it is cleaned up, he returns it to it's sheath with the extra band of Kydex held on by the two Chicago screws.  The retention wings/ears are clearly visible.  SO, it's definately the knife that was sheathed at his side during the fight.

I wonder why this Continuity Blip?  This scene couldn't have taken so long to film that a slip could have been made, could it?  Or did production decide at the last minute it would look better if Dalton were seen to be using his own knife, rather than one purloined from his enemy?

Otherwise, not bad.  American military forces enter not one, but two sovereign nations illegally, and finish by riding off into the sunset.  Literally!  Pity they didn't think to close with the theme from Gunsmoke...

[threebluestars]

Probably because there was no good shot of him removing his own knife. Fight scenes a bitch for continuity. They probably figured most people wouldn't notice. I think they underestimate the eagle eyes that watch military shows.

[Netfoot]

8 minutes ago, threebluestars said:

I think they underestimate the eagle eyes that watch military shows.

I have a small collection of knives, so when something appears on a show, I look to see if by chance, I recognise it.  In this instance, I was surprised to see the dramatic change from the big tanto to the smaller drop-point.

Can't actually identify either pieces of cutlery, but the tanto looks cheap and horrible.  The drop-point might be a slightly better, albeit smaller knife and I'd be interested in finding out more about it, even though I'm not that fond of stonewashed finishes.    Prop departments notoriously use really rubbishy, cheap knives as props.  

[dargosmydaddy]

There were so many great lines in this episode.

 

Hannah: Suggest extreme caution.

Dalton: Oh good. Here I was just gonna use mild awareness.

 

Dalton: Amir, how's your Kazakh?

Amir (with a great side eye look first): Same as it's always been. Borderline non-existant.

Dalton (pushing him forward): Great.

(I'm also now curious about how many languages Amir can say, "We mean you know harm" in...)

 

Jaz: It should be me. I'm smaller and harder to see.

McG: By that measure it should be Amir.

Jaz: Valid.

[solea]

I found this episode tense and exciting. I hand wave the less than believable bits. 

They lost me though at the very end. I remember the beach attack but nothing else that they said made any sense to me.  *hand wave*

[blackwing]

I too, found this episode to be dull.  Plot was not as involved as in other episodes.  It was just "sneak in, plant a phone, steal something, and try not to die".   I found it particularly unbelievable that the Russians would walk literally almost on top of the team in the tall grass and not even see them.  The one guy seemed to see the glint from the watch.  

And I am also lost with regards to the "stunning realisation".  Say what?  Something to do with beach bomb but I didn't follow the rest of it.  Can someone who is more attuned please decipher?

[Netfoot]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I found it particularly unbelievable that the Russians would walk literally almost on top of the team in the tall grass and not even see them.  

I once lost a model aircraft in a field of grass.  This is it:

Four feet across and brightly coloured, as you see.

The grass was only 12 to 18 inches tall, but it took me ages to find it, and when I finally did, I could see from the tracks in the grass that I'd already walked right past it three times,  within two feet.  So I can believe that camouflaged men could remain hidden in the field as searchers passed within inches. 

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

The one guy seemed to see the glint from the watch.  

In this particular case, it seems strange that they would be wearing camo and still carry twinkly watches to spoil the effect.  It also seems strange that they would be wriggling around, drawing weapons, and just moving at all, with the enemy so close.  It is movement that will attract the eye, and give you away to the enemy.

But this show doesn't seem to make too much effort to avoid the improbable.